Author Topic: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?  (Read 45977 times)

acme54321

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2015, 10:26:38 AM »
Reminds me of the Truman Show.

I was just about to say that...

Anyone here been to ION, SC? It's a similar, planned development (TND) near Charleston SC. Scratching my head wondering why ION looks so much better than this.

Seriously, go to a Google image search for 'ION South Carolina' and have your mind blown at the difference.

I'd rather someone shoot me than move to Nocatee.

I was there a few years ago.  I'on is nowhere near as big as Nocatee, land wise at least.  The neighborhoods in I'on were looked very Charleston style.  Small street grids, narrow streets, houses close together with alleys and whatnot.  The neighborhood was a lot more established so it had larger trees and they had preserved a lot of big oaks.  Plus it was built right in the middle of Mount Pleasant rather than out in BFE.  So yeah long story short it is a lot more inviting/cozy than Nocatee, which is spread out all over the place and the neighborhoods for the most part are treeless.

I'on:  https://goo.gl/maps/VAMtd
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 10:28:41 AM by acme54321 »

Tacachale

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2015, 10:30:33 AM »
My oldest friend moved out to the Fruit Cove and Julington Creek areas back when it was the Nocatee of its time. We used to joke that to live there you had to love your white bread and driving 20 minutes to get it.

These types of places will always be attractive to a good portion of home buyers. St. Johns County has built a strong brand as the go-to place for well-to-do suburban families seeking the same. The county's painting itself into a corner, though. You can't tie all of your revenue to new residential development. When - not if - the housing booms slow down, and as infrastructure and housing stock starts to age, you've got to have a wider tax base to cover it all. A single Publix strip mall amid 40000 houses isn't going to cut it. Just try maintaining all those A-rated schools off that.
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jaxlore

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2015, 10:31:25 AM »
Its funny how many people I know that have moved to Nocatee or other like developments thinking oh this would be a great place to raise my family. Then they realize after a year or two how devoid of culture those areas are and while there children receive a good education in school, there after school and weekend lifestyle is bane suburban existence and then they move to another city.

TPC

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2015, 12:12:57 PM »
Looks like the suburbs.

I'm sure it's ideal for some people but I spent some time out there when my ex still lived with her parents and there was nothing for us to do out there. She would get mad at me sometimes because she said I was always out doing things and I was... In riverside I can meet friends for food/drinks in 5 minuets. Out there you still have to drive to get anywhere and there is no nightlife.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2015, 12:28:11 PM »
Here's the thing that I don't understand with these types of developments:  Their propagating this idyllic live/work/play 'community', but where's the 'work'? 

Last I checked, a barista at Starbucks doesn't make the kind of money to afford a $400k mortgage, 2 car payments, etc... 

Maybe after the min. wage increase.....  ;)
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fsquid

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2015, 12:55:42 PM »
I have an old work colleague who moved here from Charlotte who settled there.  I don't see how you can buy a home there with any hope of good resale since they will be building in that place until at least 2025.

That's the thing, most people who move there aren't planning to sell within the next 10 years. They either move there with younger kids or with the intent of having kids soon.

I guess no chance of relocation with companies, etc.

fsquid

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2015, 12:59:18 PM »
Difference is ION, SC fetches almost triple the psf as Nocatee.

thelakelander

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2015, 01:05:32 PM »
Btw, Advanced Disposal relocated their headquarters from Baymeadows to Nocatee a few months ago.
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finehoe

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #23 on: June 09, 2015, 01:30:04 PM »
Btw, Advanced Disposal relocated their headquarters from Baymeadows to Nocatee a few months ago.

And how many of their employees can afford to live there?

CityLife

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2015, 01:46:32 PM »
These types of places will always be attractive to a good portion of home buyers. St. Johns County has built a strong brand as the go-to place for well-to-do suburban families seeking the same. The county's painting itself into a corner, though. You can't tie all of your revenue to new residential development. When - not if - the housing booms slow down, and as infrastructure and housing stock starts to age, you've got to have a wider tax base to cover it all. A single Publix strip mall amid 40000 houses isn't going to cut it. Just try maintaining all those A-rated schools off that.

Thing is most of SJC's growth is recent, which means it didn't have a large workforce historically, which means a low pension burden relative to its size. Also, as a relatively affluent community (2nd wealthiest county in the state I believe) with minimal crime and public safety issues, it also has a big advantage over Jacksonville in terms of cost to provide services. Through impact fees and recreation requirements for new development, it has also somewhat offset the cost of sprawl.

As SJC captures more of NE Fla's middle to upper middle class, the county will be able to start throwing around its weight a little more for economic development, like when the county outbid Jax for Advanced Disposal. Commercial and office will follow the rooftops eventually.

Bill Hoff

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2015, 01:54:32 PM »
A few thoughts. I distain suburbs, so take it for what it's worth....

- As a neighbor who was thinking about leaving SPR for for Nocatee told me, "Why would I drive 45 minutes away to live 8 feet from my neighbor, when I can do that here?".

- I don't buy the schools argument for 2 reasons. First, it's not very difficult to get your child into a Magnet School in Duval County if you try. Second, it's not the actual schools that are different, it's the student population. They didn't discover the secret formula to good education there, they simply have fewer students/families who don't care.

- This is mostly just white flight. People wanting to escape the "horrors" of Jax, and would rather live in a generic Disney World free of socioeconomic diversity than an authentic community. The further away from the real world they are, the less they need to care about it.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 01:57:35 PM by Bill Hoff »

mtraininjax

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2015, 04:31:00 PM »
Some people prefer neighborhoods over sprawl, those people will always choose urban options. Some people raised in suburbs only know suburbs. let's hope we see more people come to Jax who want urban options.
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simms3

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2015, 06:04:35 PM »
My oldest friend moved out to the Fruit Cove and Julington Creek areas back when it was the Nocatee of its time. We used to joke that to live there you had to love your white bread and driving 20 minutes to get it.

These types of places will always be attractive to a good portion of home buyers. St. Johns County has built a strong brand as the go-to place for well-to-do suburban families seeking the same. The county's painting itself into a corner, though. You can't tie all of your revenue to new residential development. When - not if - the housing booms slow down, and as infrastructure and housing stock starts to age, you've got to have a wider tax base to cover it all. A single Publix strip mall amid 40000 houses isn't going to cut it. Just try maintaining all those A-rated schools off that.


You'd be surprised how far CFD revenues go.  40-80+ year bonds to pay for ongoing maintenance, 72" water lines, schools, fire stations, etc etc.  Much will eventually pay back the developers after certain obligations have been met, and some will be set aside for ongoing work/maintenance.  People in Nocatee pay a separate tax rate to cover the bond that was issued.  And it probably varies even within Nocatee.  And if the original bond doesn't cover what it needs, there are a lot of finance gimmicks that can be used.  Oversimplifying here, but SJC is no stranger to paying for new infrastructure, and it has been maintaining this inefficient suburban infrastructure fine for decades now.  There will come a point, but I don't think the county is even close to that now (so many suburban counties of primarily residential development built within the last 30 years and containing more people than Duval County ring so many cities in this country already).


Resales will absolutely not be a problem in this neighborhood.  I can guarantee you that both developers (of the lots/infrastructure) and the homebuilders they sell raw to finished lots to are paying a lot of attention to resales and view those as competition.  Developers and homebuilders *want* the resales to sell really really well because their whole model is totally contingent on what would likely appear to be unrealistic home price appreciation on paper (probably double digit home price growth YoY for at least the next few years...with homebuilders requiring something like an 8-10% profit margin on the sale of homes, which depends on what they buy the lots for).

I digress, the modern homebuilding/development scheme, even if suburban, is actually just a more sophisticated "analysis heavy" way of doing *exactly* what Telfair Stockton did in Avondale and Ortega.  Modern families have different wants and needs, and there is a different planning process, let alone a zoning legal structure that just didn't even exist then (plus labor and materials cost structures are way different than in 1920s), so what you end up with is something that looks different than Avondale and Ortega, but at the end of the day, the profit structure, process, player pizza chart, etc etc are all basically the same.
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simms3

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2015, 06:12:23 PM »
Some people prefer neighborhoods over sprawl, those people will always choose urban options. Some people raised in suburbs only know suburbs. let's hope we see more people come to Jax who want urban options.


There's a lot of movement in all directions.  But what I have seen across many markets across the country is that there is often a reversal in mentality and wants depending on what one has been accustomed to, and thus grown tired of.  Many people who grew up or have lived recently and for a while in urban environments (truly urban, which is not offered anywhere in Jax, not even remotely close) grow tired of that lifestyle, as it can be exhausting.  They'll trade the pluses of this lifestyle for increased road traffic/longer commutes, often in a heartbeat, to get into a cookie cutter pristine suburban area such as this.  This desire to trade out amplified exponentially with kids.

Lots of people who grew up suburban or have never given the urban lifestyle a shot and have recently heard all about it (maybe have friends that have given it a go) decide to move to an urban location/urban city, from a more suburban location/suburban city.  Most of the young set in NYC, SF, and Chicago are indeed transplants, many of whom come from Los Angeles at most urban to random points of the south/midwest.  I am actually a living example of this, and I can see myself wanting a quieter, more suburban lifestyle at some point in my life if I choose to have kids and settle down.

Jax is a bit more stereotypically "southern" in that there is a larger demographic of less traveled people.  So there is more of an element of people sticking with what they know (Ortegans stay in Ortega, suburban people stay in their little bubble, and so on and so forth).  This is perhaps not surprisingly more common in Jacksonville than many other cities.  Therefore, it stands to reason that downtown has that as an exacerbated obstacle relative to some other cities.

Jacksonville also has a stronger competition with the Beach as a desired place to live and have an office and shop.  Atlanta, Charlotte, Austin, and Nashville do not have a beach.
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Monty

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Re: Nocatee Town Center: Northeast Florida's Next Downtown?
« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2015, 06:31:30 PM »
I think a lot of the negative commenters are 1) Envious and bitter that they cannot live in Nocatee themselves, or 2) have never actually even been to Nocatee but want to make a negative comment anyways.

I was born and raised in Jacksonville - and though my heart belongs to Jacksonville, I LOVE NOCATEE too.  I get the wonderfulness of Jacksonville within a fairly short drive but get to live in a peaceful, quiet, clean, beautiful, green, low-crime, family-friendly, brand new area.  Is it a place for everybody?  NO!  And that's okay!  But don't put down the community and those of us who do love living here...especially if you've never even been to Nocatee.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 06:41:52 PM by Monty »