Author Topic: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police  (Read 13376 times)

Tacachale

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2015, 03:09:44 PM »
Cat, it appears the article has been updated.

According to the article, 30 positions were cut in the 2010-2011 budget. Brown took office in 2011 but this was clearly not his budget, so if it's correct, these 30 are not really Brown's responsibility.

In 2011-2012, Brown cut 47 positions. These were apparently positions that were formerly contracted to JaxPort and the School Board. When those boards decided to end the contracts, the positions were vacated and eliminated. It's possible some of the school officers just transferred to the new School Board department, but that obviously didn't happen with JaxPort. Regardless, it's a cut.

In 2012-2013, Brown cut another 76 positions. There were no layoffs, so the Sheriff apparently handled it by not replacing officers who retired or left. Either way, it's 76 fewer officers on the streets. Plus, Brown also cut all 91 community service officers that year, meaning full-time officers had to devote their time to the minor incidents CSOs formerly handled.

And finally, in 2013-2014, Brown would have cut even more officers (among other things), but that was the year the budget was so bad the Council had to take it away from him. The cuts were only avoided when the Council raised taxes by 14%. This was certainly no doing of Brown, who sticks to the (false) claim that taxes haven't gone up under him.

Curry wasn't being "deceptive" in repeating the 147 number, he was relying on figures given to him by the Sheriff. 147 officer positions have indeed been cut (plus 91 CSOs), but 30 of them are not due to Brown. The fact that Brown hasn't defended himself on these points before this report indicates that he didn't realize there was an inaccuracy, which really just shows what kind of grasp he has on his own budgets.

Regardless, it's a cut regarding the DCPS and Jaxport is not the same as a cut to the police force.

JSO services were no longer needed. "Private" entities contracted with JSO and that contract ended.

I don't know that you can count 91 community officers, either. That was funded by a grant the grant ran out. We didn't have the money.

I agree with Littlepage. This whole argument is bs anyway. Rutherford is responsible. So, if you are going to play the blame game you have to look at Rutherford. If Rutherford thinks that more police will reduce crime we should have seen a bit more working the budget from him to make sure that happened.

Curry is pretending he will have something to do with the safety of this city. It's a false argument. He'll only be able to do what Brown is doing now. Curry is not running for Sheriff, thankfully.

It was 47 positions that weren't reassigned or reorganized despite a need. Instead, the mayor produced budgets that cut even more officers the next year, and would have cut even more than that in 2013. And where do you get the idea that community service officers come from a grant? They were lost due to budget cuts.

Rutherford's hands may not be clean in this scenario, but the mayor sets the budget (or at least, they're supposed to).
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Tacachale

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2015, 03:21:30 PM »
Cat, it appears the article has been updated.

According to the article, 30 positions were cut in the 2010-2011 budget. Brown took office in 2011 but this was clearly not his budget, so if it's correct, these 30 are not really Brown's responsibility.

In 2011-2012, Brown cut 47 positions. These were apparently positions that were formerly contracted to JaxPort and the School Board. When those boards decided to end the contracts, the positions were vacated and eliminated. It's possible some of the school officers just transferred to the new School Board department, but that obviously didn't happen with JaxPort. Regardless, it's a cut.

In 2012-2013, Brown cut another 76 positions. There were no layoffs, so the Sheriff apparently handled it by not replacing officers who retired or left. Either way, it's 76 fewer officers on the streets. Plus, Brown also cut all 91 community service officers that year, meaning full-time officers had to devote their time to the minor incidents CSOs formerly handled.

And finally, in 2013-2014, Brown would have cut even more officers (among other things), but that was the year the budget was so bad the Council had to take it away from him. The cuts were only avoided when the Council raised taxes by 14%. This was certainly no doing of Brown, who sticks to the (false) claim that taxes haven't gone up under him.

Curry wasn't being "deceptive" in repeating the 147 number, he was relying on figures given to him by the Sheriff. 147 officer positions have indeed been cut (plus 91 CSOs), but 30 of them are not due to Brown. The fact that Brown hasn't defended himself on these points before this report indicates that he didn't realize there was an inaccuracy, which really just shows what kind of grasp he has on his own budgets.

Regardless, it's a cut regarding the DCPS and Jaxport is not the same as a cut to the police force.

JSO services were no longer needed. "Private" entities contracted with JSO and that contract ended.

I don't know that you can count 91 community officers, either. That was funded by a grant the grant ran out. We didn't have the money.

I agree with Littlepage. This whole argument is bs anyway. Rutherford is responsible. So, if you are going to play the blame game you have to look at Rutherford. If Rutherford thinks that more police will reduce crime we should have seen a bit more working the budget from him to make sure that happened.

Curry is pretending he will have something to do with the safety of this city. It's a false argument. He'll only be able to do what Brown is doing now. Curry is not running for Sheriff, thankfully.

It was 47 positions that weren't reassigned or reorganized despite a need. Instead, the mayor produced budgets that cut even more officers the next year, and would have cut even more than that in 2013. And where do you get the idea that community service officers come from a grant? They were lost due to budget cuts.

Rutherford's hands may not be clean in this scenario, but the mayor sets the budget (or at least, they're supposed to).

he produced budgets that gave the police a giant increase in revenue to a department managed by the Sheriff that also cut the numbers of officers that the sheriff didn't hire with the extra money?

Did he do this with the magic mayors wand that lenny is going to use to repeal obamacare?

The increase in the Sheriff's budget covers mandatory costs, notably, the pension. It couldn't be used to fund the 117 (+91) positions that were cut. And violent crime is still rising. In other words, thanks to Brown's budgets, we're spending more on the JSO and getting less for it.

However, it's a good question as to what Lenny will do about all this. He says he'll prioritize properly funding the JSO and resolving the pension fiasco. While there's probably a lot of fat-trimming that can be done on the management end, thanks to the way Brown has run the city, a real solution will likely require either belt-tightening for other departments, or new revenue.

Tough calls to make, and that goes for whichever one wins next Tuesday.
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JeffreyS

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2015, 04:01:17 PM »
Sounds like Curry could have made a truthful claim that Brown could have added about 100 officers and didn't.  Why not go that route and score what points you can from that with no blow back? Now this claim makes him sound like a lying politico and Brown a budget conscious Mayor. Why frame it as such?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 04:06:22 PM by JeffreyS »
Lenny Smash

TheCat

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2015, 04:12:19 PM »
Tacahale, I misunderstood about the community service officers. They are not grand funded.

They city does not micro-manage JSO's budget, though.

Before one can blame the mayor on JSO budgeting issues, we have to look at JSO directly. Do we need the extra tank  ;)

Look, polls tell Curry that crime is the most important issue to voters. All of his safety talk tracks are b.s. It's 1990s "crime fighting" talk that leads to more expensive and fruitless crime "fighting" policies. We just don't need this rhetorical fight on crime.

I'm looking at one of Curry's crime sucks direct mail pieces now.

It says "147 police officers fired".

It also says "Murder is up 35%, rape is up 36%, assault is up 21%" - how true do you think those numbers are? If they are accurate, maybe those numbers mean more people are reporting crime, which would =  success for Rutherford and Brown.
 

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2015, 04:18:28 PM »
Have you ever used statistics to fit the narrative that you're looking for?  Yeah, me neither.  ::)

Everyone continues to harp about these damn 147 positions.  Again, that's a cap # and not an actual number representing what's on the street.  The other thing that's obvious to anyone who doesn't mind looking is the HUGE spike in violent crime from '06-'07. 

I'm wondering if it takes a doctoral degree to be able to relate the dire economy with the spike in crime?  I don't have one, but unless it's just common sense, I probably deserve one. 

The other point that no one wants to mention is that from '10-'14 we're still well below the counts from '02-'06 by a minimum of 11% and we're again at similar cap #s.  (again, there's no representation of how many are actually filled)

http://www.coj.net/departments/sheriffs-office/docs/reports/201504-violent-crime-and-manpower.aspx

Since I love reading my own posts, I just repeat this again:  There's no reason that we can't do more with what we already have.
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2015, 04:20:51 PM »

It also says "Murder is up 35%, rape is up 36%, assault is up 21%" - how true do you think those numbers are? If they are accurate, maybe those numbers mean more people are reporting crime, which would =  success for Rutherford and Brown.

See below. 

Depends on when you'd like to look to see whether it's up or down.
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Tacachale

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2015, 04:29:39 PM »
Neither Curry nor Brown, not to mention the next sheriff, will be able to get out from under the pension issue, which is where a good chunk of the JSO budget is going now. It's only going to suck up more and more money annually until we get a deal done, leaving less and less room for other things, like, you know, paying officers and crime prevention. This issue, and the overall budget, are the mayor's prerogative.

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state. There will always be ways to parse data differently. But it's difficult to argue the fact that violent crime is up and it's a major problem for our city.
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2015, 04:38:38 PM »

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state.

Except that the latest reported data for the state is '12/'13 and shows -5% in crime rate and -4.3% in overall crime. (no specifics for violent crimes)

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/cfcd694e-ef2f-4bf2-a71f-5658e8d7d8a5/cnty_annual13.aspx
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Tacachale

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2015, 04:43:05 PM »

Those numbers are accurate in that they're what is reported to the state.

Except that the latest reported data for the state is '12/'13 and shows -5% in crime rate and -4.3% in overall crime. (no specifics for violent crimes)

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/Content/getdoc/cfcd694e-ef2f-4bf2-a71f-5658e8d7d8a5/cnty_annual13.aspx

Overall crime is in fact down since 2011. It's the violent crime stats that are up over the same period.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

I-10east

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2015, 04:52:07 PM »
Two kids shot on a school bus at 118th & Blanding, SMH...The issue with crime here is MUCH bigger than just bulking up the police presence. If the parents can't control these wild kids, how in the hell does anyone expect anyone else to? At that point, throw them in a cell? That's all you can do. The main thing that I'm with liberals on is pro-choice; Then some have to nerve to complain about it. Why, because they want the overall crime rate to be even more higher? Sorry, I had to get on my soapbox.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/sources-2-students-shot-on-school-bus-in-westside/33027038

fsquid

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2015, 04:54:31 PM »
on a schoolbus?  damn

TheCat

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2015, 04:58:30 PM »
Two kids shot on a school bus at 118th & Blanding, SMH...The issue with crime here is MUCH bigger than just bulking up the police presence. If the parents can't control these wild kids, how in the hell does anyone expect anyone else to? At that point, throw them in a cell? That's all you can do. The main thing that I'm with liberals on is pro-choice; Then some have to nerve to complain about it. Why, because they want the overall crime rate to be even more higher? Sorry, I had to get on my soapbox.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/sources-2-students-shot-on-school-bus-in-westside/33027038

Throwing people in jail is expensive and does nothing to lower crime.

Prison is antiquated. It's costly, inefficient and does not increase public safety.

Quote
The main thing that I'm with liberals on is pro-choice; Then some have to nerve to complain about it. Why, because they want the overall crime rate to be even more higher? Sorry, I had to get on my soapbox.


What?

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2015, 05:02:34 PM »

Overall crime is in fact down since 2011. It's the violent crime stats that are up over the same period.

Taca, I'm looking at the #s from the FDLE website.

The crimes they're using to constitute 'violent' are:  Murder, forcible sex, robbery, Aggravated Assault

The numbers tell the truth.  Since '11 the increases are as follows:  '11  '13  Total Change  % Change

Murder:  76  93  17  22%
Forcible Sex:  789  787 -2 <-1%
Robbery:  1664  1483  -181  -11%
Agg Assault:  3056  3166  110  3%

With a net drop of 1%

The only spike there is is in Forcible Sex.  That # increased from 238 in '09 to 705 the following year.   Almost a 200% increase (196.22%) which tells me that they had to have changed their metric on what constitutes that specific crime.

Everything that we're being told is nothing more than made-up fluff.  It's a shame there aren't any actual journalists out there willing to expose any of this, huh?

Edit:  Sourcing - https://www.fdle.state.fl.us/content/getdoc/ad060310-e277-4dc7-b6d5-9a26f582f481/Duval.aspx

Second Edit:  Reasoning behind the spike in Forcible Sex:

Quote
Note: On January 1, 2013, the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI) UCR Program implemented a new definition of Rape that includes incidents previously reported as Forcible Sodomy.  Therefore, beginning with the 2013 data, FDLE’s UCR modified the collection of Forcible Rape data to include forcible rape, attempted rape, and forcible sodomy. Florida has adopted a "Forcible Sex Offense" category that is not used at the Federal level. Florida’s Forcible Sex Offenses (FSO) include forcible rape, attempted rape, forcible sodomy, and forcible fondling. Users of this site will note that various reports will use either a Forcible Rape or a FSO category in Index Offenses. Through the 2012 data, when Forcible Rape is presented, it includes rape and attempted rape only, while forcible sodomy and forcible fondling are included in aggravated assault to comply with Federal UCR reporting guidelines.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 05:11:35 PM by Non-RedNeck Westsider »
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2015, 05:06:52 PM »
So.

No violent crime spike?

And a drop in crime across the board?


Correct.  Which makes you wonder why Mike Williams hasn't been pushing this agenda all along?

My answer is simply because if crime drops, then there's no reason to increase the budget of the department.  Which pretty much brings me full circle to my one and only point:  Do more with less.

Yet another edit:  The numbers as reported are for arrests and do not take into account the results of the actual sentenced crimes. 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 05:26:34 PM by Non-RedNeck Westsider »
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I-10east

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Re: Mayor Didn't Cut 147 police
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2015, 05:15:14 PM »
So someone commits a violent act with a gun, and just give them a warning, since the jailing process is so expensive?? Okay....I don't give a damn what color they are, and I didn't even bring it up Stephen; Sit there with your liberal self righteous asses, and act like some people aren't a drain on society...That shooter will live a life of crime; The ship done left the port, far as civility is concerned...So conjure up your race baiting BS, just so you can feel good about yourselves....I speak about real situations, not feel good politics...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 05:18:30 PM by I-10east »