Author Topic: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand  (Read 32483 times)

fieldafm

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2015, 08:52:17 PM »
Quote
Refinancing is not the same as adding debt.

The scheme Brown proposed whereas the City would borrower an additional $120 million (along with JEA taking a cash advance on their own credit card of another $120 million in exchange for returning less taxpayer money over the next 20 years) would represent new debt. The deal proposed wouldn't refinance existing debt. That's now a one time payment that would reduce the unfunded liability by less than 20% (if this was a cash payment, it would reduce the current carrying costs of borrowing money to fill the gaps, however you have to pay interest on the new debt so reductions in carrying costs aren't as significant under this proposal.. servicing costs on the pension liability have more than doubled in the last 10 years, from $65mm in 2006 to $190mm today). The proposal would stop the leaking by adjusting new hire benefits, there's no question about that. The additional revenue to pay down another significant portion of the gap would come from existing workers contributing more of their pay to the pension fund, unless we hire 400 new police officers in the next couple of years while everyone stops retiring (an unlikely scenario). The key there is finding a manageable solution for contribution and accrual rate changes among existing workers. Keep in mind also that the fund isn't going to produce 10% annual returns forever.

Meanwhile, less JEA money would be going into the general fund for the next two decades. About 11% of the City's cash comes from JEA revenue transfers. That means less money to mow the grass, fix potholes and hire police officers (remember, current employees pay the benefits for current retirees).
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 09:47:53 PM by fieldafm »

Chris Hand

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2015, 01:04:22 AM »
Quote
Refinancing is not the same as adding debt.

The scheme Brown proposed whereas the City would borrower an additional $120 million (along with JEA taking a cash advance on their own credit card of another $120 million in exchange for returning less taxpayer money over the next 20 years) would represent new debt. The deal proposed wouldn't refinance existing debt. That's now a one time payment that would reduce the unfunded liability by less than 20% (if this was a cash payment, it would reduce the current carrying costs of borrowing money to fill the gaps, however you have to pay interest on the new debt so reductions in carrying costs aren't as significant under this proposal.. servicing costs on the pension liability have more than doubled in the last 10 years, from $65mm in 2006 to $190mm today). The proposal would stop the leaking by adjusting new hire benefits, there's no question about that. The additional revenue to pay down another significant portion of the gap would come from existing workers contributing more of their pay to the pension fund, unless we hire 400 new police officers in the next couple of years while everyone stops retiring (an unlikely scenario). The key there is finding a manageable solution for contribution and accrual rate changes among existing workers. Keep in mind also that the fund isn't going to produce 10% annual returns forever.

Meanwhile, less JEA money would be going into the general fund for the next two decades. About 11% of the City's cash comes from JEA revenue transfers. That means less money to mow the grass, fix potholes and hire police officers (remember, current employees pay the benefits for current retirees).

Respectfully to my friend Mike Field, he is incorrect. It is not a "scheme", and the proposal would refinance existing debt. Sounds like a good excuse for Mike and me to have a beer and talk pension economics.

The Police and Fire Pension Fund (PFPF) currently has an unfunded liability of approximately $1.62 Billion. The City is obligated by law to pay that pension debt and we make an annual debt repayment as part of our Annual Required Contribution (ARC) to the PFPF. That debt accrues at a rate of 7%.

After meeting for nearly a year to recommend solutions to the City's police and fire pension challenges, the Jacksonville Retirement Reform Task Force recommended that the City accelerate its payment of the unfunded liability by approximately $40 million/year, or $400 million over 10 years. That recommendation ultimately became part of the City's tentative agreement with the Police and Fire Pension Fund.

The Carlucci/Appleby Plan (named for its creators, former Council President Matt Carlucci and long-time business executive Charlie Appleby) makes sense as a way to meet that additional funding obligation. Rather than pay $400 million over 10 years, the City would pay the net present value equivalent ($300 million) up front.  Since the PFPF had already agreed to transfer approximately $60 million, the City's up-front payment would be $240 million.

JEA would provide $120 million, and has certified that the payment would have no impact on utility rates.

The City would refinance the other $120 million in existing debt (at a rate closer to 3.5% than the 7% we currently pay) so we can put that amount toward the unfunded liability up front.

Let's be clear: the City owes that $120 million no matter what. But if we pay it over time as part of the ARC at a higher rate, the cost of that debt is higher than if we pay it up front at a lower rate. Plus, it gives an immediate boost to the Funded Status of the PFPF as the City and Fund continue to work toward an 80% or higher status.

As for the annual JEA contribution, let's be clear about two things.

First, the credit rating agencies have repeatedly told JEA that their biggest vulnerability is the amount of its annual contribution to the City, which is viewed as on the high side for a public utility. They have urged them to move back toward a system where JEA pays based on the formula calculation set forth in the City of Jacksonville Charter.

Second, the current COJ-JEA funding arrangement expires on September 30, 2016. if a new COJ-JEA funding arrangement is not in place by that time, the JEA contribution could revert to the formula contribution -- which could mean an immediate loss of nearly $30 million in annual revenue. The Carlucci/Appleby Plan represents a far more gradual shift to the formula-based approach in the Charter.

The detailed financial analyses of the Carlucci/Appleby Plan show that if it was the funding source for a retirement reform agreement, the City would save $1.3 Billion over the next 30 years. That takes into account the change in the annual JEA contribution.

Mike or anyone else, I'm happy to discuss in more detail. But seeing as how we are pushing 1 AM, let's have that discussion tomorrow or another time. 

strider

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2015, 08:47:04 AM »
While I freely admit I know very little about the plan that was proposed, I was lead to understand that it's numbers were based on the wrong basis and that was the real reason it was not well liked.  If it was based on the wrong actuary, for instance, there would be no way it would succeed and perhaps it could even make things worse or at the very least, the chances if it succeeding would be greatly diminished.

Can anyone make sensible comments on that?
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Chris Hand

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2015, 12:32:06 PM »
While I freely admit I know very little about the plan that was proposed, I was lead to understand that it's numbers were based on the wrong basis and that was the real reason it was not well liked.  If it was based on the wrong actuary, for instance, there would be no way it would succeed and perhaps it could even make things worse or at the very least, the chances if it succeeding would be greatly diminished.

Can anyone make sensible comments on that?

Strider, I am happy to help. The retirement reform numbers were not on the wrong actuarial basis. The City's actuary, Miliman, is one of the most respected actuarial firms in the nation and also serves as the actuary for the Florida Retirement System (FRS). They checked the actuarial assumptions made by the Police and Fire Pension Fund actuary and determined that they were reasonable.

You may be referring to the fact that some Council members questioned whether the Police and Fire Pension Fund was using the correct mortality tables. Robert Dezube of Miliman comprehensively addressed that concern. If someone can tell me how to post documents here (I'm still a "Newbie"), I will happily share his memorandum to City Council on that issue.

Cheshire Cat

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2015, 05:02:41 PM »
City Council approves long-awaited forensic audit of troubled Police and Fire Pension fund.



For full story click this link:  http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-04-28/story/city-council-approves-long-awaited-forensic-audit-troubled-police-and#.VUA7MrQGBTc.twitter

Mayor chief of staff Chris Hand (from left), city councilman and mayoral candidate Bill Bishop and former city council president Matt Carlucci participate in a discussion on pension reform Monday, January 26, 2015 during a Meninak Club meeting in Jacksonville, Florida. Also participating in the debate was Police and Fire Pension Fund Executive Director John Keane. Will.Dickey@jacksonville.com
Will.Dickey@jacksonville.com

Mayor chief of staff Chris Hand (from left), city councilman and mayoral candidate Bill Bishop and former city council president Matt Carlucci participate in a discussion on pension reform Monday, January 26, 2015 during a Meninak Club meeting in Jacksonville, Florida. Also participating in the debate was Police and Fire Pension Fund Executive Director John Keane.
 
A nationally recognized expert in pension and investment forensics is set to sign an $85,000 deal with the city of Jacksonville so he can investigate the troubled Police and Fire Pension Fund.

Edward ‘Ted” Siedle is founder of Benchmark Financial Services, Inc. and was named by global finance magazine Institutional Investor as one of the 40 most influential people in the U.S. pension debate. He said Tuesday he is eager to start as soon as possible.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 05:52:52 PM by Cheshire Cat »
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tufsu1

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2015, 05:20:44 PM »
Respectfully to my friend Mike Field, he is incorrect. It is not a "scheme"

I hate the term scheme when used like this....but it is correct to use it interchangeably with plan, proposal, etc.  For example, my company has an employee bonus scheme.

jaxlore

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2015, 03:13:58 PM »
damn. while i appreciate the required need for a forensics audit etc. but how many damn studies\audits\analysis does a city need to make some sort of agreeable head way on this issue? This is been an issue for decades and still no headway there has got to be some middle ground here. Its no wonder that our cities credit rating has been downgraded. This is all just political bs vs actually wanting to solve the problem.

jaxlore

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Re: Brown vs. Curry on Jacksonville pension crisis: Where they stand
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2015, 03:37:41 PM »
I dont disagree with you Stephen but i thought the pension was a part of that decision:

"The review comes in the wake of Moody’s updating its rating methodology, putting more weight on a city’s debt and pension issues."

http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2014/01/21/moodys-considers-downgrading.html