Author Topic: FDOT's First Coast Expressway  (Read 165232 times)

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8387
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #75 on: April 07, 2015, 12:27:52 PM »
The primary purpose is to open up new greenfield development. Ok, cool, but that's an awful lot of money to spend for economic development way out there.
Here, really, is the unacknowledged problem some just don't want to admit. With or without the First Coast Expressway, a new Shands bridge is needed and owed to the residents of Clay and St. Johns counties. With or without the First Coast Expressway, new roadway construction was DESPERATELY needed in Clay County and would HAVE to have been delivered anyway. None of which even gets at the relatively short-end-of-the-stick Westsiders in Duval County have traditionally received.

But we're having this conversation, it seems to me, as if it (the conversation) is based on some controlling objective facts. It isn't. All of this back-and-forth is about subjective preferences and Tacachale just essentially admitted as much.

All of it.

Way out there, indeed, Tacachale.


No, not really. If this project were just about updating the infrastructure in already built-out areas, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But we're talking about a $2 billion dollar expressway opening up undeveloped land for development. Easing traffic in Clay County and the Westside is at best a secondary concern, and there are most likely better (and much less expensive) ways to do that. Both I and Lake have said repeatedly that I don't view this as an urban/suburban debate, but rather about how best to spend money that's clearly intended for development. Heck, I'd even be all for the expressway as an economic development driver if I thought it would actually pay off.


Quote
Some of us are just trying to keep the "metro" in metrojacksonville.com -- you know?

Again, keeping it "metro" and spending billions on something that doesn't make economic sense are two different things.


My thoughts exactly.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

tufsu1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11435
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #76 on: April 07, 2015, 01:24:36 PM »
This why I keep saying separate the validity of the specific project....which is not an indictment on Clay or its residents.  Yes, there are several trips utilizing I-10 for this particular connection.  However, the FCE takes one so far out of the way, it will be quicker and cheaper to keep using I-295.  In the event that I-295 ever reaches a level of congestion that would discourage its usage, there will be express lanes to take.  The installation of those express lanes aren't doing the future of the FCE any favors.

Truth...and FDOT knows it!

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8387
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2015, 02:42:17 PM »
Another side effect of this "necessary" road: disrupting endangered native species!

Quote

Sandhill crane nest fowls Jacksonville road project
By Dan Scanlan Mon, Apr 13, 2015 @ 4:32 pm | updated Mon, Apr 13, 2015 @ 4:41 pm

A typical Florida sandhill crane nest is built in a wet or marshy area with two eggs laid in it. The chicks normally take about 10 months to mature enough before they leave the nest. These are not the ones affecting a road construction project in Jacksonville.  Peter Canavan/Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
Peter Canavan/Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission
A typical Florida sandhill crane nest is built in a wet or marshy area with two eggs laid in it. The chicks normally take about 10 months to mature enough before they leave the nest. These are not the ones affecting a road construction project in Jacksonville.
A nest of endangered Florida sandhill cranes with chicks has put part of Jacksonville’s First Coast Expressway on hold.
That means work on an 800-foot stretch of the northern part of the limited-access toll road that will connect Interstate 95 in north St. Johns County to Interstate 10 on Jacksonville’s Westside has ceased until the baby birds fly away for good months from now.

The affected segment is north of Normandy Boulevard, part of the first half of the roadway now under construction by Dragados USA. The contractor first sighted the nesting pair in early March and alerted the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. Transportation Department spokeswoman Gina Busscher said the two adults have two chicks, and this is the only sandhill crane nest affecting one of its road projects in Florida.

...


http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2015-04-13/story/sandhill-crane-nest-fowls-jacksonville-road-project
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

RattlerGator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #78 on: April 15, 2015, 08:08:43 AM »
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.

Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)

Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.

What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.

Alrighty then.

tufsu1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11435
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #79 on: April 15, 2015, 08:40:12 AM »
do you have a problem with what I said? 

Lakelander noted that the I-295 express lanes will add capacity to the existing beltway, thereby diluting the attractiveness of the First Coast Expressway.  Since one of the main arguments for building the road is as a bypass from I-10 west to I-95 south, don't you think this is an important observation?

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8387
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #80 on: April 15, 2015, 09:25:01 AM »
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.

Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)

Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.

What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.

Alrighty then.

JTB was a tool for economic development. That was the main reason it was built; anyone will tell you that. The argument, of course, is that it paid for itself in new taxes. Maybe, but either way, as a development strategy, this one is 35 years old, and our road builders just keep on keeping on.

As for UNF, I doubt there were very many people who didn't want it built besides some JU boosters, and that had nothing to do with it being a far-out development, and everything to do with a fear of competition. There was a question of where it should be built. Most locals wanted in town, which would have made the most sense. But the requirements the state put on it effectively required a far-out greenfields site on the Southside (if not even further away, like the St. Augustine area).
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Know Growth

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 657
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2015, 10:55:52 PM »

Brannon/Chaffee Sector Plan

Lake Asbury Sector Plan  "1".....and "2"

Genesis Group Planner & Consult 

Reinhold Corp.

North half of Section 19; 'stand alone' Brannon/Chaffe Leg. Kopolousous. Et Al.

If you can't do anything with this post,just skip the thread.

spuwho

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5104
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2015, 11:48:29 PM »
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.

Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)

Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.

What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.

Alrighty then.

JTB was a tool for economic development. That was the main reason it was built; anyone will tell you that. The argument, of course, is that it paid for itself in new taxes. Maybe, but either way, as a development strategy, this one is 35 years old, and our road builders just keep on keeping on.

As for UNF, I doubt there were very many people who didn't want it built besides some JU boosters, and that had nothing to do with it being a far-out development, and everything to do with a fear of competition. There was a question of where it should be built. Most locals wanted in town, which would have made the most sense. But the requirements the state put on it effectively required a far-out greenfields site on the Southside (if not even further away, like the St. Augustine area).

While JTB may have had some development ambitions, reading old JEA (Jacksonville Expressway Authority) documents, there was genuine concern about the growing traffic requirements between the Beaches and downtown Jacksonville in the late 60's and early 70's. Beach and Atlantic, while not fully developed were considered inappropriate for an upgrade from an arterial to an expressway format. More and more people were working in Jacksonville, but living in or near the Beaches.

JTB was originally conceived to run NW at or around Southside Boulevard and connect with the already completed Commodore Point Expressway roughly aligned with an old logging railroad ROW.

As we all know, this never happened. Existing homeowners in the Hogan/Parental Home area, some of them who had homes there since the 1930's objected to what would have wiped out their neighborhoods for good.

JTB instead "went no where" and was redirected using an overlap on the former Belfort Road ROW to reach a route to downtown via I-95. I suspect this is where the development ambitions took over. Now a toll road, it desperately needed surrounding development to make it viable.

The Beaches municipalities actually passed a joint resolution in 1973 and submitted it to JEA and COJ to start the feasibility of building a monorail like service between the two areas. This would facilitate both working transit needs and feed tourists into the Beaches area which was going through a slump. The money was actually planned for and the political process was kicked off.

Oil shock and terrible inflation made for tough choices. Instead we got JTB with toll in 1979 and the money for the monorail got transmuted after many years of squabbling into the Skyway which opened in 1989.

Back to the FCB, planners truly believe that Cecil Commerce is going to be a major jobs & logistics hub in the next 30-40 years.  Jobs and logistics need 2 important things, roads for the workers to reach them, and roads to deliver and supply the goods coming out of the new space. In the words of Lakelander, Cecil is going to become yet another "Edge City", just as JTB and Southside facilitated that other Edge City. A space that has no reliance on an urban core to exist. And that concept bothers a lot of people, especially those who are comitted to the urban core.


thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35323
    • Modern Cities
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #83 on: April 26, 2015, 12:19:02 AM »
I don't mind Cecil becoming a logistics hub or Edge City.......as long as it pays for itself.  I believe that sustainable growth should pay for itself, regardless of whether its in the core or the burbs.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

spuwho

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5104
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #84 on: April 26, 2015, 12:27:15 AM »
I don't mind Cecil becoming a logistics hub or Edge City.......as long as it pays for itself.  I believe that sustainable growth should pay for itself, regardless of whether its in the core or the burbs.

So when does a new Edge City deemed a "payoff". If public infra doesn't occur, no one goes there. If no one goes there, no public infra will be built.

What does one measure to conclude a loss or gain?  Tax revenue only? Of what kind? Sales, employment, fuel, energy?

We all seem to measure the debits of the infrastructure involved. Who adds up the credits gained over the next 30-40 years?

Tacachale

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8387
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #85 on: April 26, 2015, 12:44:56 AM »
Honestly, y'all sound very much like the people who insisted there was no need for the University of North Florida WAY THE HELL OUT THERE in the never-never land of southeastern Duval County when we already had Jacksonville University IN TOWN *or* no need for the J. Turner Butler Boulevard through the woods of Skinner's Dairy Land, etc., because, really, all it was, you know, was a tool for development.

Truth . . . and FDOT knew it !!! (Come on, tufsu1)

Maybe you don't simply sound like those people, maybe you *are* those people.

What doesn't fit your conception of how things should have worked become red herrings. Evident disrespect isn't disrespect because your subjective interpretations -- apparently -- can't be viewed by you as nothing more than purely objective.

Alrighty then.

JTB was a tool for economic development. That was the main reason it was built; anyone will tell you that. The argument, of course, is that it paid for itself in new taxes. Maybe, but either way, as a development strategy, this one is 35 years old, and our road builders just keep on keeping on.

As for UNF, I doubt there were very many people who didn't want it built besides some JU boosters, and that had nothing to do with it being a far-out development, and everything to do with a fear of competition. There was a question of where it should be built. Most locals wanted in town, which would have made the most sense. But the requirements the state put on it effectively required a far-out greenfields site on the Southside (if not even further away, like the St. Augustine area).

While JTB may have had some development ambitions, reading old JEA (Jacksonville Expressway Authority) documents, there was genuine concern about the growing traffic requirements between the Beaches and downtown Jacksonville in the late 60's and early 70's. Beach and Atlantic, while not fully developed were considered inappropriate for an upgrade from an arterial to an expressway format. More and more people were working in Jacksonville, but living in or near the Beaches.

JTB was originally conceived to run NW at or around Southside Boulevard and connect with the already completed Commodore Point Expressway roughly aligned with an old logging railroad ROW.

As we all know, this never happened. Existing homeowners in the Hogan/Parental Home area, some of them who had homes there since the 1930's objected to what would have wiped out their neighborhoods for good.

JTB instead "went no where" and was redirected using an overlap on the former Belfort Road ROW to reach a route to downtown via I-95. I suspect this is where the development ambitions took over. Now a toll road, it desperately needed surrounding development to make it viable.

The Beaches municipalities actually passed a joint resolution in 1973 and submitted it to JEA and COJ to start the feasibility of building a monorail like service between the two areas. This would facilitate both working transit needs and feed tourists into the Beaches area which was going through a slump. The money was actually planned for and the political process was kicked off.

Oil shock and terrible inflation made for tough choices. Instead we got JTB with toll in 1979 and the money for the monorail got transmuted after many years of squabbling into the Skyway which opened in 1989.

Back to the FCB, planners truly believe that Cecil Commerce is going to be a major jobs & logistics hub in the next 30-40 years.  Jobs and logistics need 2 important things, roads for the workers to reach them, and roads to deliver and supply the goods coming out of the new space. In the words of Lakelander, Cecil is going to become yet another "Edge City", just as JTB and Southside facilitated that other Edge City. A space that has no reliance on an urban core to exist. And that concept bothers a lot of people, especially those who are comitted to the urban core.

Yes, the planning of JTB was complex, and there certainly was a concern about growing traffic issues in the Beaches area. However, a lot of those traffic issues were created by then-new developments created by the same interests who pushed for JTB. It was cyclical. And of course the original plans for connecting JTB to town and creating mass transit were eventually scrapped, although more and more land has opened up for development. All considered, though, JTB and the intersecting corridors are a good case for it all being a development driver that made its money back.

I agree, and hope, that Cecil will become another "edge city" in the future. It's remote but very much of it is still infill, as it's using space that was already developed and then abandoned when the Navy pulled out. But I don't really buy that it's that much of a consideration for the First Coast Expressway. If it was, then FDOT would be pushing that angle a lot more than they are. And even if it were, it would still be cyclical as with JTB: there will be more traffic because more development has been opened up by the roads.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35323
    • Modern Cities
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #86 on: April 26, 2015, 07:37:15 AM »
I don't mind Cecil becoming a logistics hub or Edge City.......as long as it pays for itself.  I believe that sustainable growth should pay for itself, regardless of whether its in the core or the burbs.

So when does a new Edge City deemed a "payoff". If public infra doesn't occur, no one goes there. If no one goes there, no public infra will be built.

What does one measure to conclude a loss or gain?  Tax revenue only? Of what kind? Sales, employment, fuel, energy?

We all seem to measure the debits of the infrastructure involved. Who adds up the credits gained over the next 30-40 years?

If your new growth is coming at an overall loss (initial and continued public investment always exceeds the amount of income/economic activity it generates) it's bad growth. Seriously, what's the point in making investments that drain the public coffers instead of ultimately enhancing the pot?  If you have a decent planning department, the municipality should be keeping track of the ROI on its investments. When Bill Killingsworth was around, they used to keep tract and we were losing money. I'm not sure we still do, but nothing has changed with our development pattern to suggest anything different.

The non-profit Strong Towns does a pretty good job of identifying the common fiscal problems with our post WWII development patterns:

Strong Towns' Chuck Marohn: Why Suburban Growth Is a Ponzi Scheme
https://vimeo.com/69602304

I agree, and hope, that Cecil will become another "edge city" in the future. It's remote but very much of it is still infill, as it's using space that was already developed and then abandoned when the Navy pulled out. But I don't really buy that it's that much of a consideration for the First Coast Expressway. If it was, then FDOT would be pushing that angle a lot more than they are. And even if it were, it would still be cyclical as with JTB: there will be more traffic because more development has been opened up by the roads.

Cecil was/is already well connected. The FCE isn't going to greatly enhance or detract from its potential as a distribution center. On second thought, it's probably not a good idea for it to develop to a certain level (say... Edge City status). Those 12,000' long runways need to be protected from sprawl, for it to reach it's ultimate potential as an aerospace center.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2015, 07:42:35 AM by thelakelander »
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

RattlerGator

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #87 on: April 27, 2015, 08:36:38 AM »
The FCE isn't going to greatly enhance or detract from its potential as a distribution center. On second thought, it's probably not a good idea for it to develop to a certain level (say... Edge City status). Those 12,000' long runways need to be protected from sprawl, for it to reach it's ultimate potential as an aerospace center.
Man, I just love this comment. What was I saying about being completely dismissive? Of the Westside? Its "ultimate potential as an aerospace center," Ennis? For real? That's your primary thought concerning Cecil Commerce?

Somehow, I think the folks at AllianceFlorida, Hillwood, and the Ross Perot companies are marketing the location and framing it in the context of Raleigh-Durham, Charlotte, Nashville, New Orleans, Orlando, Tampa and Miami. And the roads leading from those locations to the Westside of Jacksonville. Jacksonville is central in that circle that loops to those cities. And is finishing a network of roads that allows your transportation business to completely avoid the gridlock of Jax roadways inside the 295 Beltway.

Aerospace ain't the major focus, my man. It's a hoped-for major plus that Jacksonville would love but isn't banking on. Just a wild guess (after viewing some of their materials, of course).

And that tax base they're going to develop way out there towards Baldwin? It's going to seriously supplement the urban core. Cecil Commerce is perhaps the biggest economic development project in Duval County.

JAXPORT Vison: Northeast Florida will be a principal hub of the nation’s global logistics, trade and transportation network

JAXPORT Mission: Creating jobs and opportunity by offering the most competitive environment for the movement of cargo and people

If you don't understand the importance of the First Coast Expressway in this, you're not objectively paying attention IMHO. The consistent bitching about the First Coast Expressway is shortsighted in the extreme, and that isn't even a close call.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35323
    • Modern Cities
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #88 on: April 27, 2015, 09:16:31 AM »
If we really wanted an economic coup, we should have gave Cecil back to the Navy a decade ago, IMO. Cecil is already located along I-10 and near I-295.....so the location has been a decent one for well over 40 years now. The FCE isn't changing that. A better and more cost efficient upgrade would be the rebuilding of the railroad spur that used to serve Cecil. 

With that said, the best thing Cecil offers is the airport infrastructure the Navy left behind. It's something this community should really take advantage of. The manufacturing/distribution stuff is a wash though. We're subsidizing Cecil at the expense of other privately owned industrial parks that can easily accommodate the same type of uses....Westlake, which is literally on the other side of I-10 comes to mind. Understandably, there was some big opposition from private sector owners to the deal the city cooked a few years back. 

Anyway, I understand you believe the FCE is the greatest thing to happen in Jax since consolidation. I'm of the opinion we've got a Polk Parkway II on our hands. I guess time will tell. So we'll have to agree to disagree.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

fieldafm

  • Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4695
Re: FDOT's First Coast Expressway
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2015, 10:35:15 AM »
If we really wanted an economic coup, we should have gave Cecil back to the Navy a decade ago, IMO. Cecil is already located along I-10 and near I-295.....so the location has been a decent one for well over 40 years now. The FCE isn't changing that. A better and more cost efficient upgrade would be the rebuilding of the railroad spur that used to serve Cecil. 

With that said, the best thing Cecil offers is the airport infrastructure the Navy left behind. It's something this community should really take advantage of. The manufacturing/distribution stuff is a wash though. We're subsidizing Cecil at the expense of other privately owned industrial parks that can easily accommodate the same type of uses....Westlake, which is literally on the other side of I-10 comes to mind. Understandably, there was some big opposition from private sector owners to the deal the city cooked a few years back. 

Anyway, I understand you believe the FCE is the greatest thing to happen in Jax since consolidation. I'm of the opinion we've got a Polk Parkway II on our hands. I guess time will tell. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

100% spot on.

Cecil is better positioned than most private industrial parks around town (many of which have significant vacancies) because of cheap development costs (a-Hillwood got a fairly good deal from the City, as Lake points out... many of the private industrial land owners still fume about  b-JIA has a ton of mobility credits stored up for future infill  c-easy access to state and local incentives) and (more importantly) the third longest runway in the state of Florida (along with three others measuring at least 8,000 feet).