Author Topic: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches  (Read 15279 times)

spuwho

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Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« on: March 08, 2015, 09:31:52 AM »
Per FNOnline:

A government crackdown on churches has Christians in Lake Worth, Fla., wondering if they live in the United States or the former Soviet Union.

Churches in Lake Worth, population 36,000,  have been ordered to acquire a business license. As if the church has to get the government’s permission to preach and pray?

But wait. It gets worse, folks.

City officials were so concerned about one congregation that they dispatched a code enforcement officer cloaked in a hoodie to spy on a Southern Baptist church that was meeting in a coffee houseFolks, it’s like the plot of a Cold War spy novel.

“Government employees are public servants and prohibited by the Constitution from inhibiting religious freedom,” said Mat Staver, founder of the religious liberty law firm Liberty Counsel. “That is a far cry from sneaking around and into a church and acting like KGB agents.”

Staver is calling on city leaders to immediately rescind the business license mandate on churches. He is also representing Common Ground Church, the congregation that was targeted by the city’s investigator.

The church owns and operates a coffee house in downtown Lake Worth. For the past three months, it has used the coffee house for a weekly worship service. Prior to that the congregation rented space in other buildings in the community.

Pastor Mike Olive told me there had not been any problems until early last month, when he had an encounter with Andy Amoroso, a city commissioner. 

“After we opened up the coffee bar and started doing services, I heard that he told people we were anti-gay,” Olive said. “So I went to his shop to ask him about that.”

I reached out to Amoroso on Wednesday but he did not return my telephone calls.

Pastor Olive told me he tried to convey to Amoroso that the church’s message is ‘Love God, Love People.’

“Our message to the gay community is the same as it is to the straight community,” he said.

The commissioner, Olive said, did not seem to appreciate his message.

“He pointed at me and said, ‘Listen, you better not have a church down there,” Olive told me.

By the strangest of coincidences, a code enforcement officer showed up for a Sunday service on Feb. 8. He was wearing a hoodie and was armed with a concealed video camera, according to the letter Liberty Counsel sent to the city.

The code enforcement officer’s notes read like something out of a KGB report.

“I walked back to the Coffee Bar and was able to visualize, in my opinion what appeared to be a ministry in progress,” he wrote in the report.

He documented how he observed “people holding what appeared to be Bibles or religious books as one had a cross on it” and “what appeared to be a ministry in progress.”

“I was approached by an unknown man with a cross around his neck,” he wrote.

I’m surprised the code enforcement officer didn’t call up the National Guard for reinforcements.

The officer wrote that he was “able to capture on my city phone a video which will be attached to this case file for future court presentation.”

It’s pretty shocking stuff for a city that prides itself on being a tolerant, multicultural city. But as we all know – tolerance and diversity do not extend to Christians.

“It was pretty shocking,” Pastor Olive said. “We had no prior warning.”

The following Sunday a city employee showed up again and told the church it had one week to vacate the building. They were accused of operating a church in a business rental property without a Lake Worth business license.

For the record – the church was only licensed to sell java – not preach Jesus.

William Waters, the city’s community sustainability director, told me they have nothing against the church – they were simply responding to a complaint.

“We had a complaint that a gathering of people was taking place there in the form of a church,” he said. “We investigated that and determined that, yes, there were people gathered there.”

So if 115 people gather for coffee, that’s OK. But if they gather for worship – it’s against the law?

“We have to treat everybody the same,” Waters said. “We couldn’t give preferential treatment to churches versus other businesses.”

And in the city’s opinion, a church is, in fact, a business – just like  grocery store, a Waffle House or an adult novelty shop.

So why all the super-secret spy stuff? Why send an investigator to infiltrate a Southern Baptist worship service? Why not just call the pastor and explain the rules and regulations?

“It could eventually go to the special magistrate,” Waters told me. “Evidence had to be documented as to what the gentleman found when he went to visit the place on that Sunday.”

He said every business in the community received letters about the permits and fees – including churches.

Joan Abell, pastor of the First Presbyterian Church, told The Lake Worth Tribune she was troubled by the city regulations.

“We’ve been there 99 years and we’ve never had to have a license,” she told the newspaper. “Where do you all of a sudden say the church has to have a license to gather and pray?”

Waters could not tell me how many churches have complied with the city’s demands. Local news accounts indicate the First Baptist Church paid nearly $500 in fees to the city.

Staver said the city’s actions violate the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, the Florida Constitution, the Florida Religious Freedom Restoration Act and the federal Religious Land Uses and Institutionalized Persons Act.

“Churches are not businesses and need not obtain such licenses,” Staver wrote in a letter to the city.

Waters said any church that refuses to comply could be shut down by the fire department.

“There’s a variety of things that could happen if you don’t comply with the use and occupancy requirement,” he said.

As for Pastor Olive – his church will no longer meet in its church-owned coffee house. Instead, it is taking its congregation “underground” until the issue is resolved.

“We just want to urge the city – don’t allow God and our faith to be zoned out of downtown,” the pastor said.

It appears to me that this is a standoff that could use a healthy dose of all that multicultural tolerance and diversity that Lake Worth takes pride in.

urbanlibertarian

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2015, 09:53:23 AM »
IMHO churches should not be licensed and regulated the way they are in Germany but all nonprofits including churches should pay taxes.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos cutodes (Who watches the watchmen?)

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2015, 11:24:40 AM »
The article seemed kind of one-sided and nothing exactly newsworthy.

Churches are churches and business are businesses.  Churches are allowed to conduct for-profit business, but must obtain all of the proper licensing and pay the proper taxes.  They also have to abide by all of the labor laws that pertain to the type of business they're operating.

I may be wrong, but what I'm reading into the article is that the church is operating a for-profit coffee shop and either not paying or refusing to pay the costs or follow the labor laws associated with it, since they seem to believe that the coffee shop is just an extension of the church.
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JeffreyS

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2015, 11:30:33 AM »
This looks like a church thinking they can beat the local guys out of some taxes.  You know it's a war on churches and I'm sure on Christmas.
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finehoe

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2015, 11:52:53 AM »
But as we all know – tolerance and diversity do not extend to Christians.

Yes, we all know how powerless and persecuted Christians are in the US.

strider

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2015, 01:44:44 PM »
Actually, I read the article to say that the coffee house was legal, it was the act of conducting services in the coffee house that was illegal.  While I do not believe a church must get a business license in Jacksonville, they do certainly have to comply with the various building safety ordinances, just like every other business out there.  While the data collection method smacks of our own MCCD's way of doing things, the fact remains that unless the building is zoned and properly laid out to be a legal church, meaning safe, then it should not be used as a church.  And anyone who thinks a church is not a business needs to open their eyes because a church that is not a business will not be around long.  All that said, I hope the church takes Lake Worth to task on this and teaches the city a lesson in good behavior and common sense.
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funguy

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2015, 03:23:55 PM »
It's time to start taxing all churches...
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Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2015, 03:31:19 PM »
While I do not believe a church must get a business license in Jacksonville,

If they're running a 'for profit' business then they most certainly do.  The cafeteria at FBC (I recommend it, the food is fantastic for buffet style), has to pay all taxes, fees, etc. and stay up to date with all licensing, inspections, etc. in order to operate. 

They have many other outlets that generate money for the church that they also pay taxes on, and yes, even property tax, but only at a percentage of the space being used for that purpose.  Think about the tax credit you take for running a home business; It's quite similar.
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Charles Hunter

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2015, 05:27:51 PM »
Actually, I read the article to say that the coffee house was legal, it was the act of conducting services in the coffee house that was illegal.  While I do not believe a church must get a business license in Jacksonville, they do certainly have to comply with the various building safety ordinances, just like every other business out there.  While the data collection method smacks of our own MCCD's way of doing things, the fact remains that unless the building is zoned and properly laid out to be a legal church, meaning safe, then it should not be used as a church.  And anyone who thinks a church is not a business needs to open their eyes because a church that is not a business will not be around long.  All that said, I hope the church takes Lake Worth to task on this and teaches the city a lesson in good behavior and common sense.

If that's the case, was the church meeting violating the rated capacity of the coffee house?  If not, the city seems to be overstepping.  If they were, it would be no different than taking action against a sports bar with too many patrons. But, those types of violations are typically dealt with at the time - safety and all that. 

urbanlibertarian

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2015, 10:07:24 AM »
If it's legal to have a 25 member book club meeting in that coffee house without a permit then it should be the same for a 25 member church service.
Sed quis custodiet ipsos cutodes (Who watches the watchmen?)

finehoe

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2015, 11:41:46 AM »
Oddly enough, I can find no mention of this alleged incident in anything other than wingnutosphere.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2015, 11:43:08 AM »
The article seemed kind of one-sided and nothing exactly newsworthy.

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Gunnar

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Re: Florida city wages soviet-style crackdown on churches
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2015, 02:01:25 PM »
IMHO churches should not be licensed and regulated the way they are in Germany but all nonprofits including churches should pay taxes.

It's a misconception that churches have to be licensed and regulated in Germany. Quite the opposite is true - anyone is free to start their own religious group if they want to.

There is a special legal status that awards extensive rights (e.g. being excempt from most taxes, exceptions from the labor code, the right to tax their members (the government can actually collect this as part of the income tax if the church so wishes...) to religious or "philosophy of life" groups (i.e. you could ask for that status for an atheist group), but only at their request, i.e. it is not a requirement of any kind.
If a group does want to have that status, there are certain requirements to be met and checks that are done (e.g. if this is a faith-based group and not a business disguising as one).

Some groups that have this status are e.g. the Lutheran and Catholic church, the Mormon church, Jehova's Witnesses, the Jewish Community, Orthodox churches but also the "Bavarian association for the freedom of mind".
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