Who's Downtown Is Ahead? Jacksonville's or Tampa's?

[PeeJayEss]

N.B. - whose*

[thelakelander]

Im surprised you didn't mention jacksonvilles bike share when comparing apples to apples:
http://jacksonville.hyatt.com/en/hotel/activities/hotel-activities/bike-hyatt.html
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=22116.0

So, score that as a tie I wish we had bike lanes though.

Jacksonville does not have bike share. JTA applied for a TIGER grant last year to fund it and a Skyway extension but didn't win. One day, we'll get there though.

[simms3]

Jax. is severely hampered by still unresolved pension issues. 

That's a pretty weak excuse.  There are a myriad of things Jacksonville could do that in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the funding of pensions.

much of what downtown Tampa has done over the past five years has required capital investments from the City.  That is something seemingly unattainable in Jacksonville right now given our long-term budget forecast.

the validity of which, no one in this town seems capable of challenging.

If I tell you that I am only going to budget 15 dollars a month for transportation, despite making 8 thousand dollars a month in income, then according to my budget forecast, I can only 'afford' to finance a small tricycle to get around on.  Maybe a homemade skateboard.

Stealing a bike might be an option, depending on if a pawn shop had some reasonably priced bolt cutters.

But just because I have decided to pretend that there is no money for anything (except of course a thirty million dollar billboard) doesn't mean that that is the 'truth'.

Its true because I've made up that ridiculous rule and never reexamined it.

Yea I say if the City has tens of millions to build a billionaire some stupid new billboards, I mean videotrons for the record book, then yes, the City has more money than it's capable of admitting to fund improvements to downtown.

[thelakelander]

Jax. is severely hampered by still unresolved pension issues. 

That's a pretty weak excuse.  There are a myriad of things Jacksonville could do that in no way, shape, or form has anything to do with the funding of pensions.

much of what downtown Tampa has done over the past five years has required capital investments from the City.  That is something seemingly unattainable in Jacksonville right now given our long-term budget forecast.

the validity of which, no one in this town seems capable of challenging.

If I tell you that I am only going to budget 15 dollars a month for transportation, despite making 8 thousand dollars a month in income, then according to my budget forecast, I can only 'afford' to finance a small tricycle to get around on.  Maybe a homemade skateboard.

Stealing a bike might be an option, depending on if a pawn shop had some reasonably priced bolt cutters.

But just because I have decided to pretend that there is no money for anything (except of course a thirty million dollar billboard) doesn't mean that that is the 'truth'.

Its true because I've made up that ridiculous rule and never reexamined it.

Regarding bike infrastructure, Monday's article applies well here. Below, a DT Tampa image from a 2010 MJ article, shortly after the installation of bike lanes....via changing lane widths with paint.



Same concept as what has taken place on Jefferson and Broad Streets. Just using the paint for a different mode:



A little extra paint could easily be applied on roads (like the examples below) throughout Jax's core for minimal expense. We just need the will power.


Myrtle Avenue


Park Street - Yeah, traffic would move just fine if this were a two-lane road.


Julia Street - lots of pavement waiting for a rush hour that doesn't exist....

Oh, two more examples of extra paint in Orlando and New Orleans...


College Park in Orlando.


New Orleans Warehouse District

Paint to improve bike and ped safety is just one example of how to enhance an area's quality-of-life for minimal expense. There are more innovate solutions out there for other issues as well. All it takes is will power to get the ball rolling. Come on Jax, we can do it!


King Street between Riverside and Beaver Street in Mixon Town.

[jaxjaguar]

I'm sure the depth of the river has something to do with it, but would it be possible to move the cruise terminal closer to downtown? Like near the Matthews bridge? I feel like the current location is so far out of view of downtown that people cruising don't even consider it a port of call, unlike Miami, Key West, Tampa, etc which are all within walking distance of downtown.

The Carnival Fascination has cruises every week out of Jacksonville and they regularly averages 2,500-3,000 passengers including crew. Due to the ports location how many of those people do you think actually book downtown / visit. I know from talks with passengers on my previous 2 sailings on Fascination, most of the people book hotels near the airport and don't visit much if anything in the area. It'd be nice to have the ship a little closer to downtown and inject a few hundred into the hotels there. The water taxi could even add a route to the terminal to pick up people wanting to go to the Landing, Mosh, etc

[thelakelander]

^I was going to say that the height of the Dames Point Bridge hampers our ability to have a cruise port close to downtown. However, I just realized it has the same vertical clearance as the Sunshine Skyway Bridge. Tampa's channel depth is 43 feet and Jax's is 40 feet. So I guess, using those basic parameters, anything north of the Mathews Bridge would be game. Yet, ships are getting larger. Anyone know what Tampa's plans are in dealing with the height of the Sunshine Skyway Bridge?

[jaxjaguar]

Currently the Fascination goes under the Dames Point! lol It's quite funny watching everyone on the lido looking up to make sure the exhaust stacks don't hit the bridge. I'm fairly certain there's at least 10 - 15ft of clearance, but from an angle it doesn't look like there's much. Most of Carnivals ships are only slightly taller than the Fascination, about 10-15ft. So if the Dames point was ever raised, we could probably house 2 ships! A larger one for 7-9 day cruises and the smaller Fascination for 4-5 day cruises.

[Lunican]

^ I think it would be cheaper to lower the exhaust stacks on the ship. RCCL's largest ships have retractable stacks so they could get out of the shipyard they were built in.

[Adam12]

Anyone know what Tampa's plans are in dealing with the height of the Sunshine Skyway Bridge?

Hope for the best at this point. The Skyway is actually only one limiting factor when it comes to the largest cruise ships. The port's berths are too small to handle them and they would not be able to turn around once they got in there. Tugboats are currently used to turn ships around in the turning basin, which is both too narrow and too shallow for the largest ships to use. Even the shipping channels themselves are too narrow for two such large vessels to pass each other as well as being too shallow. The only practical option imo is to build a new terminal west of the Skyway.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/tampas-mega-cruise-ship-options-limited-expensive-risky/2188201

[UNFurbanist]

I think there is another aspect that needs to be recognized also. Urban areas become hip and lively with the influx of younger residents right? Well, Jacksonville in someways is a victim of its own success. This is because of the huge popularity of the beach communities. In Tampa for a fun urban lifestyle you must go to either the Core or Ybor; while in Jax it's either the Core, Riverside or the Beaches. Young people are more spread out because they have lifestyle choices. To clarify I agree there are huge opportunities that have been missed in DTJax and there seems to be strong opposition to change in the area but I think when we look at this we should also realize that Tampa doesn't really have to compete with another hip area within close proximity. One could possibly argue that St. Pete is that place but they are so far apart I don't think it really counts. Leaders need to start doing a better job with DTJax! They need to realize they are competing even within their own community for lively residents. Just a thought.

[gjosephunf]

I disagree with the statement "Tampa/St. Pete" being far....

DT Tampa to DTSP (23.8 miles -- 30 minutes)
Jacksonville to JAX Beach (18 miles -- 30 minutes)

I relocated back to Tampa after finishing undergrad at UNF in 2013. Prior to Buckhorn I wanted to flee Tampa. Since my return, I have noticed a renaissance emerging more infill, a greater sense of civic pride, weekly festivals, more local businesses/restaurants, greater focus on globalization and diversity (Copa Airlines, upcoming direct flight Frankfurt via Lufthansa).

Seminole Heights (Riverside esque) is beginning to see urban infill along Florida Ave. kind of like Edgewood Ave in Murray Hill. More coffee shops, and "Hipsters" moving in. Green ARTery going live in 2018 similar to Atlanta Beltline on a smaller scale.

Hyde Park great neighborhood for the young and old

Ybor City beginning to see another boom, and more tech companies....

Westshore gaining steam on infill and international presence for tourists and natives.

Downtown (Core): Gaining traction with all of the aforementioned, Selmon Greenway, more infill (2) approved 23+ story towers, a couple of mid-size projects, plus "Vinikville"

I'm finally seeing "hope" however, I still want MASS TRANSIT (commuter or light rail)! The city wants it however there's a political struggle since the county lacks the will and prefers "BRT." Mayor recently announced to fund streetcar and get the ball rolling for Vinik. Viking (Lightning owner) wants mixed-use, neighborhood, with transit. Vinik wants to break ground on his project this summer. Hopefully, will see modern conversion + line going to Seminole Heights by end of decade. Within 10 years I truly think Tampa/Tampa Bay will become more "urbanized."

Jacksonville IMO has the potential to be one of the greatest metro's in the SE. There has to be a political and social will to utilize assets, and bring in diversity. JAX should really push for a greater international presence. It's still "home" to me as I have family and close friends however I was ready to depart once I walked across the stage. It would be cool to see some 23-30+ story residential towers in Brooklyn/LaVilla, and of course the core.

[Adam12]

I think there is another aspect that needs to be recognized also. Urban areas become hip and lively with the influx of younger residents right? Well, Jacksonville in someways is a victim of its own success. This is because of the huge popularity of the beach communities. In Tampa for a fun urban lifestyle you must go to either the Core or Ybor; while in Jax it's either the Core, Riverside or the Beaches. Young people are more spread out because they have lifestyle choices. To clarify I agree there are huge opportunities that have been missed in DTJax and there seems to be strong opposition to change in the area but I think when we look at this we should also realize that Tampa doesn't really have to compete with another hip area within close proximity. One could possibly argue that St. Pete is that place but they are so far apart I don't think it really counts. Leaders need to start doing a better job with DTJax! They need to realize they are competing even within their own community for lively residents. Just a thought.

I disagree for a few reasons -
First, the SoHo area in south Tampa is by far the most popular place in Tampa for young college kids. Most of the UT and USF students hang out there, and as a result many want to live near there.
Second, downtown St Pete is FAR more vibrant and dense than downtown Tampa. There is a LOT of "cross pollination" too; people from one city hanging out or visiting friends across the bay. A lot of folks live on one side and work on the other.
Third, Clearwater Beach, Fort De Soto and other Pinellas county beaches are a far larger tourist draw. Pinellas county's bed taxes are usually noticeably higher than Hillsborough's for that reason. So Tampa definitely has to compete with those beach areas.

The policies implemented by local leaders are the difference without a doubt. There is no excuse for downtown Jax to not expand its bike/ped infrastructure, for example. There should be a good plan in place to expand the S-Line and connect it to things (parks, amenities, the trail to Baldwin, the riverwalk, etc). The money is there. The desire is not.

[jaxinatl]

I cant imagine any place the same size as Jax and have a more dead downtown.

[thelakelander]

The downtowns in Dayton, OH, Birmingham, AL, Buffalo, NY and Rochester, NY all appeared to be pretty sleepy to me during previous trips to those cities.  Other than Birmingham, it's been five or six years since I've visited the other cities so they may have changed since then.

[UNFurbanist]

I suppose you guys are right. I was just in the opposite situation, I lived in Tampa about four years ago and a lot of what is happening today was only in its infancy then. Hopefully that is the trend we will see in Jax in coming years. Things are beginning to rev up here but its all still small steps. There is no doubt we need better leadership and action from city hall. Bill Bishop?...