Author Topic: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy  (Read 65726 times)

JeffreyS

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2014, 10:39:25 AM »
I'll just say I like it.
Lenny Smash

CityLife

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2014, 10:41:50 AM »
Riverside/Avondale is a regional shopping, dining, cultural, and entertainment mecca, and in a lot of people's opinions is THE destination locally. It is also one of the most desirable places to live in the city, for people of all ages. It brings in a significantly higher amount of revenue to the city in terms of ad valorem taxes, sales taxes, etc in comparison to the rest of the city (excluding maybe the SJTC). Stop being cheap COJ. Pump some money into the district to help provide solutions to the transportation and parking issues there.  Then these type of debates wouldn't ever come up. Or at least there wouldn't be any merit to them. I know people may disagree with Mr. Crowe's letter, but by the letter of the law, he has some relevant points. Not saying I agree with him necessarily, just that he is not way out there.

If COJ could make the area more bike friendly, and provide better public transportation options, perhaps the maximum parking standards could be relaxed and we wouldn't ever have to hear about these type of concerns. 

fieldafm

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2014, 11:01:49 AM »
Riverside/Avondale is a regional shopping, dining, cultural, and entertainment mecca, and in a lot of people's opinions is THE destination locally. It is also one of the most desirable places to live in the city, for people of all ages. It brings in a significantly higher amount of revenue to the city in terms of ad valorem taxes, sales taxes, etc in comparison to the rest of the city (excluding maybe the SJTC). Stop being cheap COJ. Pump some money into the district to help provide solutions to the transportation and parking issues there.  Then these type of debates wouldn't ever come up. Or at least there wouldn't be any merit to them. I know people may disagree with Mr. Crowe's letter, but by the letter of the law, he has some relevant points. Not saying I agree with him necessarily, just that he is not way out there.

If COJ could make the area more bike friendly, and provide better public transportation options, perhaps the maximum parking standards could be relaxed and we wouldn't ever have to hear about these type of concerns.

I agree that a more comprehensive transportation plan needs to be implemented in R/A, see here (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-sep-stirring-a-different-conversation-on-riversideavondale).



The reality is, their is a large amount of opposition to any sort of change in the neighborhood. Even forward-looking improvements like this receive convuluted opposition based on one's opinion instead of rational facts.










This particular design simplifies the existing traffic pattern at the Five Points intersection (which is safer from both an automobile and pedestrian standpoint), shortens crosswalks (again, a proven method to improve pedestrian safety), widens sidewalks and expands outdoor dining areas all with no net loss of on-street parking facilities.   (Just like the redesign of San Marco Square http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-aug-before-after-san-marco-squares-balis-park). Yet, a small but vocal group of well-connected property owners are trying to block this as well.

Tacachale

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2014, 11:04:48 AM »
^Wow, that looks a lot better.
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CityLife

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2014, 12:48:11 PM »
Mike, that was a great piece you did on parking solutions. I must have missed it 2 years ago. Exactly the type of stuff I was referring to.

Has RAP or any R/A advocate ever tried to quantify the financial impact/benefit the neighborhood has in terms of revenue generated for the city. I would think that would be a very beneficial tool for lobbying the city for bike/ped/transportation projects. Finding out the ad valorem revenue generated is pretty easy, but all the others might be tricky.

Basically, the net goal would be showing how much R/A generates in relation to city expenditures for the neighborhood. My guess is that the neighborhood generates substantially more than it receives, but having the hard data would be gold.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 12:50:33 PM by CityLife »

simms3

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2014, 12:52:15 PM »
Not a fan of the new design...looks like it could be placed as an outparcel in Fleming Island where the operator's other restaurant apparently is.  The existing structure is not necessarily worth saving, though.

The concerns raised are real concerns that should be addressed as part of a two way street.  The concerns need to be addressed, but the mentality on the part of residents also needs to change.  This is an improvement over Yesterday's, a super cheap/crappy bar where I went WELL underage in high school and don't even recall being carded.  And while a commercial strip in Jax does mean more noise and parking issues than areas in in Jax not immediately adjacent to commercial (residents should know what they are buying/living next to anyway), it IS Jax, which even at its noisiest (which certainly isn't this strip) is nowhere near considered noisy in the least bit and parking is all relative.  Was in Avondale on a recent Saturday night and there were plenty of open parking spaces...we parked literally across the street from Mellow Mushroom.  This would never happen even in suburban areas of many cities in this country.

So address the issues, but also don't give in to any unreasonable requests.
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CityLife

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2014, 12:57:08 PM »
Not a fan of the new design...looks like it could be placed as an outparcel in Fleming Island where the operator's other restaurant apparently is.  The existing structure is not necessarily worth saving, though.

This is a new proposal. Different operator than Taps from Fleming Island. I don't think Taps would have been able to compete in R/A to be honest.

thelakelander

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2014, 12:58:31 PM »


^Wow, that looks a lot better.

It would be cool to see something like that, extended down Park to better connect Five Points and Park & King together. The ROW on Park between those two districts is in need of enhancements.
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ChriswUfGator

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2014, 01:04:15 PM »
I just don't see why we're tearing down a 70 year old building (roughly the same age as the older crop of structures in R/A when RAP was formed) instead of encouraging reuse?


CityLife

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2014, 01:14:29 PM »
Great idea Lake. That would be a high impact project that wouldn't cost very much relative to its impact. I believe that entire corridor is zoned CRO, so a new streetscape could potentially attract new businesses like B&B's, art galleries and additional professional offices.  Retail and restaurants can potentially come in under a use-by-exception.

ChriswUfGator

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2014, 01:18:26 PM »
I'm really starting to take issue with the near-wholesale exclusion of commercial structures from the R/A and Springfield overlays. Respectfully, someone screwed the pooch.

The building was constructed in 1950 after the historic district's period of significance (1909-1936) and was identified as having no historic significance under the National Register criteria.

http://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/docs/historic/historic-preservation-guidelines-for-riverside---a.aspx (page 13 in link)

It was built in 1948, and is now older than a 1936 structure was at the time the R/A overlay was enacted, Lake. It's a 70 year old building, why not do an adaptive (not even THAT adaptive...it was already a restaurant and has the floor space for it) reuse? And for the record, sorry to be the lone voice of dissent here, but that rendering on the new one looks like it belongs in front of a strip mall on the southside.


Shwaz

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2014, 01:24:42 PM »
I just don't see why we're tearing down a 70 year old building (roughly the same age as the older crop of structures in R/A when RAP was formed) instead of encouraging reuse?

From what I've heard, the structure in it's current condition would need over $1M in work just to meet code. I live a couple blocks away and it really does look likes it's in bad shape.

The plan proposed looks nice and would certainly be an improvement.... but I'll always miss cheap pool & pitchers of Rolling Rock :( 
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ChriswUfGator

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2014, 01:32:30 PM »
I just don't see why we're tearing down a 70 year old building (roughly the same age as the older crop of structures in R/A when RAP was formed) instead of encouraging reuse?

From what I've heard, the structure in it's current condition would need over $1M in work just to meet code. I live a couple blocks away and it really does look likes it's in bad shape.

The plan proposed looks nice and would certainly be an improvement.... but I'll always miss cheap pool & pitchers of Rolling Rock :( 

That new construction will cost that much. That, and it's a historic district, cost shouldn't be the only concern anyway.


Intuition Ale Works

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2014, 03:01:13 PM »

I am curious what makes this design suburbany.

I would like to learn the design/layout factors that affect people's opinion on where it fits in our city.

Thanks in advance.
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fieldafm

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Re: New Avondale Restaurant Proposed: Not Everyone Happy
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2014, 03:08:33 PM »
My only gripe would be the windows, which is the only good point Crowe makes. The windows appear to be small, infrequent and set far within the frame of the building... and from the rendering it appears that there is much more wall surface than there are windows.  Larger and/or more frequent windows are certainly favorable in a walkable, urban envrironment.
Having larger windows would also give you the opportunity to have more prominent awnings, which is also preferable in a well functioning urban environment.

Frankly, I feel that's not an unreasonable design compromise to overturn.


Other than that: its built to the street, has parking in the back and covered outdoor seating. Looks pretty 'urban' to me. The rest of the aesthetics nuances would be nit-picky.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 03:48:51 PM by fieldafm »