Author Topic: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon  (Read 230441 times)

spuwho

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Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« on: August 22, 2014, 09:37:07 PM »
Per the LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-china-fighter-jet-intercept-20140822-story.html

Chinese fighter jet intercepted Navy sub-hunter plane in South China Sea



An armed Chinese fighter jet conducted what Pentagon officials called an aggressive midair intercept of a U.S. Navy submarine-hunting aircraft during a routine patrol above international waters.

Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby said the incident occurred Aug. 19 about 135 miles east of Hainan island in the South China Sea and involved a Navy P-8 Poseidon plane.

He said the Chinese fighter made three passes dangerously near the U.S. plane. The jet also zoomed directly in front of the Navy plane at a 90-degree angle to reveal its belly, which was packed with weaponry, he said.

At one point, Kirby said, the Chinese warplane flew alongside the Navy aircraft, putting their wingtips as close as 30 feet apart. The encounter ended with the Chinese pilot doing a barrel roll over the top of the U.S. plane.

Kirby called the incident "very, very close" and "very dangerous."

Below is a picture of the harassing plane as seen from the P-8.



The Obama administration has lodged a protest to China through official diplomatic channels.

"This kind of behavior not only is unprofessional, it's unsafe and it's certainly not in keeping with the kind of military-to-military relations that we'd like to have with China," Kirby told reporters.

He said the U.S. had "registered our strong concerns to the Chinese about the unsafe and unprofessional intercept, which posed a risk to the safety and the well-being of the air crew and was inconsistent with customary international law."

He said he was not aware of any radio communications between the American and Chinese pilots.

The Pentagon took several days to disclose the incident because officials were reviewing the details and wanted to register the protest with Beijing, Kirby said.

The incident comes during a tense period in the South China Sea, where Beijing's territorial claims over several resource-rich shoals overlap with those of neighboring nations.

In May, China placed an oil rig in waters claimed by Vietnam, which set off a round of anti-Chinese protests and deadly riots in Vietnam. China removed the rig last month.

Ministers from the 10-member Assn. of Southeast Asian Nations, or ASEAN, issued a statement expressing concern about the growing friction with China and called for increased talks with Beijing.

The Navy has called the P-8 Poseidon “the most advanced long-range anti-submarine and anti-surface warfare aircraft in the world.”

Based on a heavily modified Boeing 737, the Poseidon typically flies at elevations of 5,000 to 10,000 feet and can stay aloft for about nine hours.

The plane is outfitted with advanced radar and electronic signal sensors to identify, find and track surface targets.

It also can drop sonar systems that send back signals indicating objects below the water's surface.

Non-RedNeck Westsider

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2014, 10:03:37 PM »
I wonder where they learned it.....  ;D

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BridgeTroll

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 03:59:14 PM »
Intercepts of Maritime Patrol aircraft are pretty common in this area.  What is not common is the aggressiveness of the intercepting pilot.  This was done to get a reaction... then measure it.  Poke the bear with a stick and see what happens...  8)
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

spuwho

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 05:20:36 PM »
It was in the same area, east of Hainan Island that a PLAAF J-10 collided with a Navy patrol craft and caused it to emergency land.

A few months ago a USAF Rivet Joint was intercepted by a Russian Air Force Su-27 near Sakhalin Island and pilot did the same thing.

Now I am not aware if we treat any Russian "Bear" bomber the same way over the Bering Sea when we do intercepts, but based on our response to these behaviors I am thinking we dont.

What is the same as before is that they only send a single interceptor to harass. USAF only intercepts in pairs.

The PLAAF has been shadowing our U2 flights out of Kadena for years flying 30,000 feet below just to let us know they are watching.

They usually get testy when they are releasing a new ship, sub or war game and we come around to "sniff" the event from a distance.

There will be more of these events. The JSDF has picked up their patrols on the Senkaku's last month and it is a matter of time before they are tested.

JayBird

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 06:58:19 PM »
Looking at it from the other side, I would hope that if a Chinese military plane came close the shores of Hawaii/Alaska/Pacific Coast we would be just as aggressive. To me the "diplomatic" route should be when we are the visiting team.
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spuwho

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 11:24:02 PM »
Looking at it from the other side, I would hope that if a Chinese military plane came close the shores of Hawaii/Alaska/Pacific Coast we would be just as aggressive. To me the "diplomatic" route should be when we are the visiting team.

Oh we do.  During the Cold War it was very common to have a Soviet "Bear" bomber come over from Siberia into the Bering Sea and we would scramble interceptors to meet them before they entered US airspace. This behavior declined as the Soviets migrated into today's Russia. The Russian Air Force has recently started up the "penetration" flights once again and make the trek to the Bering Sea to test our response times.

However a key difference between those flights and these done by the US forces is that our flight path is not into territorial airspace. We stay out over international airspace and run parallel. So we don't present ourselves as if we are attempting to make an overflight. (We haven't attempted a military overflight of Communist China since the early Sixties).

And the last time a set of Russian "Bear" bombers flew to Venezuela, it was over international airspace and we did not shadow them or bother them in the least. In fact US was criticized for NOT shadowing them. Our response was that they posed no threat to us as they remained in non-US airspace and therefore was really none of our business.

Now if a Russian AF sent a recon flight along the Alaskan coast and stayed in international airspace, I am sure they would be shadowed, however I don't think USAF would be doing barrel rolls over the top and cutting them off in the air and make it unsafe. But just like the PLAAF, we would let them know they were in our backyard.

I think that is the distinction DoD was making in the press conference.  "You have a right to shadow, you have the right to share the airspace...you do not have the right to endanger us and act unprofessionally"


spuwho

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2014, 12:13:42 AM »
China defends intercepting US Navy plane

http://www.chron.com/news/world/article/China-says-US-plane-intercept-was-professional-5708529.php#photo-6760747

BEIJING (AP) — China's Defense Ministry rejected U.S. accusations that a Chinese fighter jet conducted a "dangerous intercept" of a U.S. Navy surveillance aircraft off the southern Chinese coast.

Ministry spokesman Yang Yujun called the U.S. accusations "groundless" in a statement issued Saturday night. He said the Chinese pilot conducted operations that were "professional and the Chinese jet kept a safe distance from the U.S. planes."

Yang called the Chinese flights "routine identification and verification."

Pentagon press secretary Rear Adm. John Kirby gave a different account Friday of the Aug. 19 encounter about 135 miles (220 kilometers) east of China's Hainan Island. He said the Chinese jet made several close passes by the Navy P-8 Poseidon plane, coming within 30 feet (9 meters) of it at one point.

Kirby said that included the Chinese jet doing a "barrel roll" maneuver over the top of the Poseidon — a modified Boeing 737 — and passing across the nose of the Navy plane apparently to show that it was armed. Kirby said the Chinese jet's maneuvering posed a risk to the safety of the U.S. air crew and was "inconsistent with customary international law."

He said it was the fourth such incident since March of "close intercepts" involving Chinese jets.

The Chinese statement also said that a Navy P-3 Orion, an anti-submarine and surveillance aircraft, flew alongside the Poseidon. The Pentagon did not mention the second aircraft.

Tensions between the two countries have risen in the South China Sea, as China disputes territorial claims with U.S. ally the Philippines, Vietnam and other neighbors.

In 2001, a Chinese jet collided with a U.S. Navy surveillance aircraft off Hainan Island, killing the Chinese pilot and forcing the Navy plane to make an emergency landing on the island. Washington severed military relations with China after that episode.

In the latest encounter, Yang blamed "the large-scale and highly frequent close-in reconnaissance by the U.S. against China" as "the root cause of accidents endangering the sea and air military security between China and the United States."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 07:04:33 AM »
To clarify... especially as someone who has flown those flights AND been intercepted... these flights happen on a regular basis and are nothing new.  They are more often than not nothing more than "show the flag" and freedom of navigation flights as these are conducted in international waters.  MPA aircraft DO NOT penetrate the territorial airspace of any country.  They do fly through various countries ADIZ and may be intercepted.  The interception is generally a peaceful and even friendly encounter.  The interceptor may well be armed but it is there for visual identification and escort through the zone.  We intercept to tell them... "we see you" and your passage through our ADIZ will not go unchallenged.

The interception is perfectly expected... we penetrate... they intercept.  The part that is unacceptable is the aggressive nature of the pilot in the interceptor.  This type of flying cost one chinese pilot his life a few years ago when he rammed the P-3 with his aggressive actions.



In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

simms3

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 12:46:44 PM »
Wow, this is very interesting and I love/appreciate the comments.  A whole world that I am not familiar with - military relations.

Thanks spuwho and BridgeTroll for your feedback!
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InnerCityPressure

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2014, 02:56:02 PM »
Wow, this is very interesting and I love/appreciate the comments.  A whole world that I am not familiar with - military relations.

Thanks spuwho and BridgeTroll for your feedback!

+1 - I am amazed at the wealth of knowledge possessed by the members of the MJ community.

BridgeTroll

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2014, 03:52:15 PM »
Pay close attention to news articles regarding China and the South/East China sea.  China is flexing its new found naval power and wish to turn that area of the globe into their own private lake.  Unfortunately a huge amount of commerce travels those waters... not to mention the mineral and gas wealth located on the bottom.  They have already siezed islands and shoals belonging to the Phillipines and Vietnam...
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Overstreet

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2014, 06:40:45 PM »
Sounds like a Tom Clancy novel doesn't it?

spuwho

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2014, 06:59:33 PM »
They tried to plant an oil rig in Vietnamese waters. It caused huge anti Chinese riots across Vietnam and they pulled the rig out last month. They rip the US for being the bully and then give it a run themselves.

BridgeTroll

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2014, 02:12:29 PM »
A much clearer legal viewpoint... some excerpts...

Quote
The message being delivered by the U.S. following this incident is an important one. The U.S. did not object to the intercept itself, but rather to the manner in which it was conducted. This sets an important example of consistency for China and others and reinforces the U.S. commitment to two important issues in the maritime domain, safety of flight and freedom of navigation.

Quote
More specifically, the Rules of the Air, Annex 2 to the Chicago Convention, advise states to operate with caution when executing intercepts. While these standards apply only to the intercept of civil aircraft, the concerns they illustrate are nonetheless relevant in the context of state aircraft. The Rules of the Air acknowledge the inherently hazardous nature of intercepts, emphasizing that interceptors must operate with due regard, avoiding “flying in such proximity to the intercepted aircraft that a collision hazard may be created” and avoiding crossing an aircraft’s flight path.

Quote
Saturday’s response from the Chinese Defense Ministry argued that “it is [America’s] massive and frequent close-in surveillance of China that endangers the two sides’ air and marine security, and is the root of accidents.” Not only is this statement inaccurate in alleging that U.S. military aircraft have caused accidents over the South China Sea or pose a risk to international aviation, it also repeats the often advanced and incorrect position that military activities in the Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) are unlawful.

http://thediplomat.com/2014/08/responding-to-chinas-air-intercept/
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

BridgeTroll

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Re: Chinese fighter intercepts Navy Poseidon
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2014, 03:43:32 PM »
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2014/08/27/chinese-spy-planes-in-taiwanese-airspace/

Quote
Chinese Spy Planes in Taiwanese Airspace

Taiwanese fighter jets have tracked Chinese spy planes several times this week as they crossed into Taiwan’s airspace. The FT reports:


The Taiwanese military dispatched fighters twice on Monday when Chinese Y-8 spy aircraft entered its air defence identification zone, an early-warning area known as an ADIZ. China, which regards Taiwan as a renegade province, dismissed the issue by saying its aircraft were on “routine” flights. [...]

Taiwan’s defence ministry said the Chinese aircraft spent roughly 10 minutes in the ADIZ before exiting the area. A Taiwanese military spokesman said Chinese military aircraft had previously flown into Taiwan’s ADIZ but that it was not a common occurrence.

This is only the latest in what is becoming a pattern of Chinese aggression in the sky; China has had several tense airborne incidents with Japan in the past year, and only recently conducted a “dangerous intercept” of an American spy plane in international airspace near Hainan Island.

There is one slight upside to China flexing its muscles, however. Its rivals, from Japan and India to Australia and Indonesia, will draw closer together, and closer to the U.S. as well.

Published on August 27, 2014 12:51 pm
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."