Are Jax Foodies Getting Ripped off?

[Sentient]

This idea comes out of some recent posting in the Jax Sushi Restaurants thread.  One of the themes of the posters was one of "give me Jax and it's lower priced dining over city x y z"...  So that made me first look at my credit card statement - documenting the cost of many nights out in Jax - then at the menus of the places under discussion, JAX's "better" dining establishments (on which there was universal agreement) - Orsay, Black Sheep, 13 Gypsies, etc.

Funny thing...  Jax appears to be JUST as expensive at similar solid but not top of the charts places in other cities that "you can't compare Jax to"...  Who would have thought?  Take a look:

     Pele Wood Fired (a place that is trying to bring Neapolitan pizza to Jax, but to me still just not quite getting there) - http://peleswoodfire.com/wp-content/uploads/Peles-Dinner-Autumn-2013-FINAL.pdf    Avg Price of a pie just north of $17

compare to:

     Motorino - a NYC place (with outposts in Hong Kong and Manilla - i.e. world class) which brings most of its ingredients in from Italia - http://motorinopizza.com/file/8058/ev%20food%20web%205.29.14.pdf   Avg price of a pie clocking in at...  $17

     Black Sheep - farm to table style, solid, well made, if unremarkable, good space and good service always - http://blacksheep5points.com/menu/dinner/  Non Sandwich/Veggie apps - about $25 (helped by a $19 shrimp & grits), starters $10-ish

compare to:

     Foragers City Table - NYC organic new American dining - http://www.foragerscitygrocer.com/chelsea-restaurant   starters $13 (a little hard to compare due to menu format) and entrees about $26 and change

     Orsay - french bistro - http://www.restaurantorsay.com/menu/dinner   starters clocking about $13 omitting the foie gras at $24, and non sandwich/veg entrees at $27.50

compare to

     Raoul's - a classic spot in a very hot neighborhood, frequented by celebs - http://raouls.com/menus.php?sec_id=8#sec10  apps about $15 and entrees about $29 (excluding a $52 rack of lamb, which Orsay does not offer).

     13 Gypsies - tapas style menu - http://www.13gypsies.com/menu.html  clocking about $9 and change

compare to

     Nai Tapas - http://www.menupages.com/restaurants/nai/menu also clocking around $9 - $10.  They offer a larger size option as well.

So, interesting isn't it.  The questions come - why is this the case?  I would assume given the significantly higher rents the NYC places are paying, the significantly higher labor and operating costs (carting anyone?) and the cut throat environment of serve very good food or quickly go out of business (see high costs) that their prices would be significantly higher than Jax, like 50% or more...

And yet they are not?

Why is this?  One possibility is VOLUME, you can make as much money keeping the place busy and seats filled.  I think this makes sense but you still only get to turn so many tables a night, and these places are pretty small overall, no 300 seaters here...

Or is the Jax dining scene capitalizing on a monopoly like environment?  Where there is little choice at the top end of the quality spectrum, so they just need to be comparable to each other?

Now for the haters and Aspie's - first - I like all the Jax restaurants mentioned, I eat at these places weekly and no doubt the Jax scene would be worse off without them.  This is NOT about these restaurants per se (hey that's a good name for a restaurant) but to explore a broader question of what is it going to take to enliven the Jax dining scene.  Second - I live here and have no intention of leaving in the near term, so if you are going to comment "if you don't like Jax you can leave (puffed lips)" well I just saved you having to type that...  Third if you are going to say "well you can't compare Jax to city xyz" well I just did and Jax don't look so good.

Lastly - yeah this is a look at a few restaurants and also omits the top end NYC places (because there are no JAX equivalents) so you can save all your statistical comparisons...  I don't doubt if you did a study of every restaurant menu NYC would be higher than Jax, that is not the question, the question is why is Jax so expensive and why are there so few quality places???


Your thoughts?

[JayBird]

Actually, housing is the only thing more expensive. My utilities are comparable, my vehicle insurance is comparable, my grocery bill is comparable, even a night at the movie theater is comparable. The one and only discrepancy is my rent here (NYC) vs. mortgage there(Fleming Island). Outside of housing, there isn't much difference in expenses, so it doesn't surprise me that menus compare. I love trying new foods, and NYC definitely offers that, but at home, I cook a lot more.

However, either because of or resulting from the higher rents, salaries are much higher here (NYC). Which results in more disposable income. Over the last few years my extended family has moved to various cities in Florida from Jersey and the one thing they all comment on in the first few months being there: living is much cheaper, but I also have less money after the bills are paid.

Perhaps this is why no one wants to risk their life savings to venture into a "great" restaurant offering. From my limited view, restaurants are extremely risky investments for just regular fare, it would take a lot of courage to break out new.

So in reality, Jax may not be that much more expensive than any other metro area in the US. If we were, then I'd imagine some great chefs would be lining up to open a spot where people are so free with their spending money.

[Sentient]

or you can go to bold bean on stockton and wait your turn in line for 20 minutes, pay on average a dollar more per drink than starbucks, wait an additional 10 minutes for the drink to be finished, and then patiently wait for seating room.

Jacksonville people will flood to high quality food at reasonable prices.

This gets back to my thought that Jax is a poor city.  French Pantry looks to be $10 and under a dish...  So there is a value perceptions at that price point... at $25 probably not so much.

It also explains Hawker's apparent success.  The menu is cleverly designed, so that most of it is $8 a dish or less...  So a group of four can go out and you can spend $25 total with a drink and see a lot of food, eight plates...  or go solo and get a bowl of noodles and a night out for $10. 

Also might explain Medure's move downscale to burgers and ongoing expansion in that area.... just not enough dining dollars at the $25 a plate level in this town.

[Tacachale]

I don't know if I buy that argument. If money was really the end all be all for food culture, New Orleans would be a desert and southwestern Connecticut would be the hottest hotspot in the country. I'm sure it doesn't hurt, but there are other factors as well.  The number of visitors and tourists bringing their money into the restaurants probably tips the scales a lot. Jacksonville doesn't get nearly the visitors in either volume or proportion to a place like New York, and the visitors who come here aren't coming for the food or local culture, but for golf, the beach, sports & events, etc.

I expect that would have an even bigger effect on small/mid-sized places with strong restaurant cultures (or reputations for them, anyway), like New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston or Asheville. Despite their small population there are tons of outsiders pumping money into it. And specifically there are visitors who come specifically for the local culture and food in those places, which separates them from some other tourist communities (Orlando, Vegas, Daytona, etc). Nobody goes to Orlando for "Orlando cuisine", in fact a lot of the good restaurants are away from where the tourists go, as compared to, say, Charleston.

[simms3]

I don't buy the argument that dining in Jax is as expensive as dining in NYC.  For one, Jax doesn't have a tier of quality as high as you can find in abundance in NYC.  NYC's mid-range/avg restaurant might be equivalent to an Orsay or Black Sheep, but another big difference is that outside of chains/fast food, NYC's cheaper corner mom and pop fare or cafe fare is going to be A LOT more expensive than what you'd seek out for quick/cheap/decent in Jax.  This is because the rents are higher and the salaries needed to pay employees (even if that comes in the form of a tip on higher bill) are higher in NYC.  It's the same reason my haircut in SF costs $87, whereas a top salon men's cut in Jax might be half that, or less (and my salon in SF isn't a "top tier" by any means).

NYC is way more expensive to dine out in than SF, and SF is way more expensive to dine out in than Jax.  Period.

A final three factors is groceries:

Jaybird, you are the only person I've heard say groceries are the same in NYC.  My experience there is similar to my experience in SF: you have a lot of higher end groceries to choose from, or very small corner grocers to choose from.  Either way, you're paying exorbitant grocery bills, and sometimes it actually just makes sense to eat out.

Dense cities such as NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston aren't "brown bag your lunch" cities.  You are eating out every single lunch and paying "financial district" prices.  Also, work hours are longer and then you either have happy hour or gym.  When all is said and done, you are left no choice but to eat dinner out because you're too tired to cool it and waiting in a grocery line will take up just as much time.

And mega finally, who even has a decent kitchen for cooking in these cities???

Bottom line is that at least for single professionals, young couples saving up, cramped middle class families with working parents, etc etc, you're spending A LOT more on just about everything in the big cities, and NYC is the most expensive for just about everything except for rent (SF has very clearly overtaken it for the time being).

Silly argument.  And I don't live in NYC, but I am on a plane leaving it now to go back to my home in SF.  I can comment.

[simms3]

Tourism and business visitors is also a part of it.  But really the rents have a huge trickle down effect on "average" businesses.  A top end restaurant in NYC can charge $250+ prix fixe before wine and still do heavy volume because there are a lot of rich people.  You'll find the same tippy top prices anywhere there are people willing to pay them.  Jax has very few rich people.

But for avg restaurants, they are balancing out volume with their rent.  Usually there's only so much volume they can do, maybe more in a big city, maybe equivalent to a restaurant in San Marco or Eiverside in Jax.  But that rent comes down hard on restaurant ownership, so they need to lift prices.  Their overhead is more expensive too.  Getting fresh food to your business in NYC is A LOT more expensive than in Jax.  Same reason that SF's flower mart is being kept near a freeway exit because moving it for development to an inner city location would drive up flower prices twofold or more as deliveries become so much more expensive.

Finally, as I mentioned, wait staff, line cooks, managers, and hosts need to be paid sufficiently to live within commuting distance to the restaurant.  In Jax you can live for so cheap anywhere, but in NYC that is not the case.

Stupid argument.

[fsquid]

I'm more worried you are paying $87 for a haircut.

[Sentient]

Tourism and business visitors is also a part of it.  But really the rents have a huge trickle down effect on "average" businesses.  A top end restaurant in NYC can charge $250+ prix fixe before wine and still do heavy volume because there are a lot of rich people.  You'll find the same tippy top prices anywhere there are people willing to pay them.  Jax has very few rich people.

But for avg restaurants, they are balancing out volume with their rent.  Usually there's only so much volume they can do, maybe more in a big city, maybe equivalent to a restaurant in San Marco or Eiverside in Jax.  But that rent comes down hard on restaurant ownership, so they need to lift prices.  Their overhead is more expensive too.  Getting fresh food to your business in NYC is A LOT more expensive than in Jax.  Same reason that SF's flower mart is being kept near a freeway exit because moving it for development to an inner city location would drive up flower prices twofold or more as deliveries become so much more expensive.

Finally, as I mentioned, wait staff, line cooks, managers, and hosts need to be paid sufficiently to live within commuting distance to the restaurant.  In Jax you can live for so cheap anywhere, but in NYC that is not the case.

Stupid argument.

I think you missed the original post...  There is no argument.  NYC is much more expensive than JAX, yet we are paying the same here for what is a mid range option in NYC...

So if rents are cheap here and you can live cheaply here as you say, why are the top restaurants in JAX charges price they can command in NYC?

[Sentient]

I don't know if I buy that argument. If money was really the end all be all for food culture, New Orleans would be a desert and southwestern Connecticut would be the hottest hotspot in the country. I'm sure it doesn't hurt, but there are other factors as well.  The number of visitors and tourists bringing their money into the restaurants probably tips the scales a lot. Jacksonville doesn't get nearly the visitors in either volume or proportion to a place like New York, and the visitors who come here aren't coming for the food or local culture, but for golf, the beach, sports & events, etc.

I expect that would have an even bigger effect on small/mid-sized places with strong restaurant cultures (or reputations for them, anyway), like New Orleans, Savannah, Charleston or Asheville. Despite their small population there are tons of outsiders pumping money into it. And specifically there are visitors who come specifically for the local culture and food in those places, which separates them from some other tourist communities (Orlando, Vegas, Daytona, etc). Nobody goes to Orlando for "Orlando cuisine", in fact a lot of the good restaurants are away from where the tourists go, as compared to, say, Charleston.

Money is money no matter who is spending it.  Jax has minimal tourism and no food culture, as well as minimal expense account business in this city of military and call centers.  I agree money is not be all and end all but absent a food culture there is nothing else to drive restaurateurs to set up.

[ProjectMaximus]

I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...

But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.

I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.

For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.

[JayBird]

That's awesome! I'm really interested to see what menu he comes up with that truly "Jacksonville experience".

[benfranklinbof]

Awesome article! Can't wait to check out his place next year!

[natybrew]

I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...

But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.

I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.

For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.

I look at the Orlando/Winter Park area, where they have three amazing restaurants very close to each other: Cask and Larder, The Ravenous Pig and Luma on Park. All with James Beard nominated chefs at the helm. While I am supportive of the Jax food scene, it really cannot compare to the aforementioned places. Those places blow me away when I dine there. I just don't feel that when I dine here. Again, the food is yummy here, but not mind blowing.

[peestandingup]

I don't buy the argument that dining in Jax is as expensive as dining in NYC.  For one, Jax doesn't have a tier of quality as high as you can find in abundance in NYC.  NYC's mid-range/avg restaurant might be equivalent to an Orsay or Black Sheep, but another big difference is that outside of chains/fast food, NYC's cheaper corner mom and pop fare or cafe fare is going to be A LOT more expensive than what you'd seek out for quick/cheap/decent in Jax.  This is because the rents are higher and the salaries needed to pay employees (even if that comes in the form of a tip on higher bill) are higher in NYC.  It's the same reason my haircut in SF costs $87, whereas a top salon men's cut in Jax might be half that, or less (and my salon in SF isn't a "top tier" by any means).

NYC is way more expensive to dine out in than SF, and SF is way more expensive to dine out in than Jax.  Period.

A final three factors is groceries:

Jaybird, you are the only person I've heard say groceries are the same in NYC.  My experience there is similar to my experience in SF: you have a lot of higher end groceries to choose from, or very small corner grocers to choose from.  Either way, you're paying exorbitant grocery bills, and sometimes it actually just makes sense to eat out.

Dense cities such as NYC, SF, Chicago, and Boston aren't "brown bag your lunch" cities.  You are eating out every single lunch and paying "financial district" prices.  Also, work hours are longer and then you either have happy hour or gym.  When all is said and done, you are left no choice but to eat dinner out because you're too tired to cool it and waiting in a grocery line will take up just as much time.

And mega finally, who even has a decent kitchen for cooking in these cities???

Bottom line is that at least for single professionals, young couples saving up, cramped middle class families with working parents, etc etc, you're spending A LOT more on just about everything in the big cities, and NYC is the most expensive for just about everything except for rent (SF has very clearly overtaken it for the time being).

Silly argument.  And I don't live in NYC, but I am on a plane leaving it now to go back to my home in SF.  I can comment.

Pretty much this. Food in Jax, overall, is nowhere near as expensive as what it is in bigger cities. We just returned from summer in DC & it's at least $20 every time you leave your house to eat, no matter where you go. Also don't forget to include fees for riding the Metro BTW. Taking the family on that train ride & to eat too? Yeah, shit can get real expensive real quick. Sure, you can find dives, but even then its still not what I'd call cheap. Maybe cheap for there. Yet, the bars, restaurants, etc are always ALWAYS packed (which shows you how much money is flowing into that place & what it caters to to be able to sustain all that). Its easy to do if you're single, sharing rooms, semi-wealthy, etc. Not so easy if you're just a normal married schlub with kids (which is why they're not there). That city, and most others mentioned, belong almost exclusively to the single young professional. Believe that.

I ate out quite a bit, went to old hangouts, etc but mostly found myself just getting a build your own plate from the Giant's hot bar. Speaking of that, I did find groceries there were just as cheap (or cheaper) than here in Jax (Giant vs Publix). Also lots of Trader Joe's around, which is way cheaper on many things that here in Jax would cost more. In sum, I'd prob take the cheaper & decent mix of food options here in Jax any day, even if they're not exactly considered high end or cutting edge. You're not getting ripped off here.

[Josh]

I'm not sure what i'm missing here, but I'm no expert on this so I'm probably missing a lot...

But to me this is pretty simple. These things you're trying to compare are simply not comparable. Top quality restaurants in Jax, as you obviously recognize, is very different from top quality in certain other places. And top-dollar establishments in Jax is very different from the top-dollar elsewhere. The quality that's available in a market like NYC is a result of intense competition. The pricing in that market is also a result of intense competition. Likewise, the quality and pricing available in Jax is a result of a relative lack of competition.

I guess I see it as a more nuanced version of your monopoly theory. In any case, you can always break it down further, but to me the lack of competition is where the problem begins.

For the record though, I believe that Jax holds its own given its size. I think there are some smaller cities with much better culinary scenes, but overall Jax is about average for a 1.3 million metro. Wouldn't mind seeing it improve of course.

I look at the Orlando/Winter Park area, where they have three amazing restaurants very close to each other: Cask and Larder, The Ravenous Pig and Luma on Park. All with James Beard nominated chefs at the helm. While I am supportive of the Jax food scene, it really cannot compare to the aforementioned places. Those places blow me away when I dine there. I just don't feel that when I dine here. Again, the food is yummy here, but not mind blowing.

I have friends in College Park that eat at those aforementioned restaurants at least twice a week, yet they prefer some of the top restaurants in Jax when they come to town. The grass is always greener.