Author Topic: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville  (Read 50202 times)

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32793
    • Modern Cities
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #195 on: July 03, 2019, 10:42:57 AM »
We need attractions that bring people who will stay awhile and spend money.  A destination attraction.

Downtown is a ghost town. At this point, we need to focus on the basic infrastructure needs (upgrading parks, two-waying streets, lighting streets at night, better integrating existing ground floor retail/dining with the public realm) and simply stop self sabotaging a market that would naturally result in economic opportunity coming to downtown.

As for attractions, we're going in reverse with that right now. Our best short term and likely easiest opportunity is taking advantage of the Landing and repurposing it into a mix of uses that can complement and blend with the private projects either already in the works or planned right around the site. Unfortunately, we're blowing it big time demolishing the building with no vetted idea of what to do with the space afterward. So other than being in a time where social media and puff press releases come out on a regular basis, all we're getting is more of the same failed strategies that didn't work in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32793
    • Modern Cities
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #196 on: July 03, 2019, 10:44:33 AM »

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?

Yes

Funny thing is opening areas to basic things like fishing actually makes some sense for naturally activating use and attracting people.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

BridgeTroll

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14007
  • The average person thinks he isnt
    • London Bridge Pub
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #197 on: July 03, 2019, 10:51:48 AM »

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?

https://www.jacksonville.com/article/20131106/NEWS/801243547
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Kerry

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1858
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #198 on: July 03, 2019, 10:52:38 AM »
I agree that the ship downtown is not a good idea.  It may bring a few people downtown to see it, but what type of visitor does it bring?  We need attractions that bring people who will stay awhile and spend money.  A destination attraction.  It's only a short distance to drive on to Orlando and find some really popular sights and things to do.  We need places that appeal to the locals.  How is a maintenance-heavy rust bucket solve that?  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

Largest Ball of Twine is already taken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rZe_a2GO1U
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 10:56:33 AM by Kerry »
Third Place

Snaketoz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 775
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #199 on: July 03, 2019, 11:14:05 AM »

< snip >

  We'd be better off with the world's largest ball of twine or an annual mullet pageant.

The fish or the hairstyle?
The hairstyle.  If that doesn't work, how about a tattoo or piercing showdown? A loudest muffler on pickup contest?

Snaketoz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 775
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #200 on: July 03, 2019, 11:30:17 AM »
We need attractions that bring people who will stay awhile and spend money.  A destination attraction.

Downtown is a ghost town. At this point, we need to focus on the basic infrastructure needs (upgrading parks, two-waying streets, lighting streets at night, better integrating existing ground floor retail/dining with the public realm) and simply stop self sabotaging a market that would naturally result in economic opportunity coming to downtown.

As for attractions, we're going in reverse with that right now. Our best short term and likely easiest opportunity is taking advantage of the Landing and repurposing it into a mix of uses that can complement and blend with the private projects either already in the works or planned right around the site. Unfortunately, we're blowing it big time demolishing the building with no vetted idea of what to do with the space afterward. So other than being in a time where social media and puff press releases come out on a regular basis, all we're getting is more of the same failed strategies that didn't work in the 1970s, 80s and 90s.
I agree lake.  Before that will work we need to have a person in City Hall who is responsible for the morale and spirit of this city.  We have an inferiority complex like few others.  I remember just after the city consolidated, the came out with a very short campaign that seemed to work, but was abandoned.  Part of it was the "Bold New City" stuff, and another was simple bumper stickers that had Jacksunville with a sun behind the Jacksunville.  There were thousands on vehicles across the area.  We need to feel proud of our city.  Instead of squandering millions on gun shot tracers, demolishing buildings, and hiring a never ending stream of paid consultants, spend some on promoting our potentially great city.

Captain Zissou

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3952
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #201 on: July 03, 2019, 11:58:35 AM »
Steinhatchee already has a mullet tossing competition.  Should we do our next city council trip there?

Snaketoz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 775
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #202 on: July 03, 2019, 12:46:32 PM »
Steinhatchee already has a mullet tossing competition.  Should we do our next city council trip there?
Let our council catch those tossed mullets.

blizz01

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1699
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #203 on: July 03, 2019, 01:26:35 PM »
I only remember WAPE stickers......everywhere.

Snaketoz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 775
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #204 on: July 03, 2019, 01:38:41 PM »
I only remember WAPE stickers......everywhere.
"This is the mighty 690, WAPE, the most powerful station in the nation".

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #205 on: June 21, 2021, 06:58:28 PM »
Quote
A Jacksonville group's quest to bring a Navy ship to downtown Jacksonville as a floating museum has had its ups and downs the past 11 years, but after a global pandemic and then a hurricane that broke the USS Orleck free from its Louisiana dock, local boosters are hoping to have the ship here by Veterans Day.

Whether the USS Orleck, currently docked in Lake Charles, La., ever ends up in Jacksonville still depends on what an out-of-water assessment of the ship's condition finds sometime in the fall.

If it passes that make-or-break test, then the Jacksonville-based non-profit that's worked to bring a Navy ship to one of downtown's piers will have the USS Orleck towed to Jacksonville and open it for daily visits.

A bad showing in dry dock, however, will be the end of the line for the USS Orleck.....

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/2021/06/21/jacksonville-may-know-months-if-uss-orleck-floating-museum/7709787002/

The USS Orleck was commissioned in 1945.  It was a museum in Orange, Texas, where it was built, for 5 years.  Sat in the water for another 4 years after the town refused to let it dock after a hurricane.  Then it was moved to Louisiana to repeat as a museum in 2009.  They were going to close the museum and either scrap it or sink it until our Jax team showed interest. Now it awaits a fall inspection to see if it is salvageable.

While I admire the tenacity and mission of the Adams/Orleck group, I believe this ship and most others like it, are just too expensive to keep afloat and will never receive enough support to keep them going.

Just look at the long term life of the Queen Mary, probably the world's most famous "museum/entertainment" ship, and the failure of anyone to keep the ship in good enough condition to keep it afloat.  Now, the City of Long Beach is taking it over as, once again, an operator/owner has filed bankruptcy.  It needs an estimated $23 million in immediate repairs just to keep it from capsizing and over $289 million to properly restore it.  I don't see such resources in the millions for the Orleck being raised here on an ongoing basis which will be necessary as I don't expect operating revenue to even come close to covering its maintenance costs.

If we can't maintain a one-of-a-kind railroad engine that was already here and has historic ties directly to Jacksonville for a fraction of the costs and we can't rally the citizenry around preserving our historic structures, how do we expect anything more for a ship that has little or no connection to the area and is not all that historically notable on the national scene?  Sadly, our "history of preserving history" here does not bode well for this project.
Quote
Long Beach has taken back control of the Queen Mary from the ship’s operating company amid concerns that the 87-year-old vessel has not been properly maintained, the city announced Friday.

“For the first time in decades, Long Beach has full control of the Queen Mary. We will be fully engaged in the preservation of this historic landmark and are incredibly grateful for this opportunity,” Mayor Robert Garcia said in a statement.

The former ocean liner turned floating hotel has long been a challenge to operate, with a 2017 study recommending that as much as $289 million worth of renovations and upgrades were needed to keep parts of the ship from flooding. According to a trove of court documents and inspection reports released last month, the Queen Mary needs $23 million in immediate repairs to prevent it from potentially capsizing....
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2021-06-04/long-beach-takes-over-queen-mary

From Wikipedia's USS Orleck article:
Quote
....Museum ship (since 2000)

On 12 August 2000, the Turkish government transferred Yücetepe to the Southeast Texas War Memorial and Heritage Foundation at Orange, Texas, for use as a memorial and museum under her old name, USS Orleck.

When Hurricane Rita stuck the Texas coast in September 2005, Orleck was severely damaged. After repairs, Orleck was ready to return to her pier at Ochiltree-Inman Park; however, the City of Orange refused to allow her to return. Orleck was temporarily relocated to Levingston Island, then moored north of Orange Harbor Island.

On 6 May 2009, the Lake Charles, Louisiana, City Council voted in favor of an ordinance authorizing the City to enter into a Cooperative Endeavor Agreement with USS Orleck. On 20 May 2010 it moved to Lake Charles, Louisiana where it is now on display. The grand opening in Lake Charles occurred on 10 April 2011. As of 2019 the ship was currently facing closure of the museum with the ship being either sunk or scrapped; however the museum remained operational.

In 2019, following the failure to acquire USS Charles F. Adams (DDG-2) as a museum ship in Jacksonville, Florida, it has been proposed by to acquire Orleck and move her to the proposed berth that was obtained for the Charles F. Adams. The USS Adams Association studied Orleck and deemed that she would survive the tow from Lake Charles to Jacksonville. The proposal is under consideration.[1]
Museum ship USS Orleck aground after Hurricane Rita in 2005.

On August 30, 2019, the Jacksonville Naval Museum announced that the transfer of Orleck to Jacksonville has been approved and are waiting on finalizing plans with the Jacksonville city council.[2]

In February 2020, the move to Jacksonville was confirmed. She would remain open in Lake Charles until March 1, 2020, before closing in preparation for an inspection by the US Coast Guard for towing to dry dock in Texas for repairs before making the tow to Jacksonville.[3]

The tow to Jacksonville was delayed by the COVID-19 pandemic. She broke loose from her mooring in the Calcasieu River during Hurricane Laura, drifting a mile down stream before drifting aground with some damage.[4].....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Orleck
« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 07:19:08 PM by jaxlongtimer »

jaxjaguar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 683
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #206 on: June 21, 2021, 09:46:24 PM »
Honest question as someone who knows nothing about these types of ships... Would it make sense to create a small freshwater alcove on the edge of the river to put the boat in? Almost like a wet dock. Heck they could probably keep some fish in it too. My understanding is the salt water is the biggest reason these things are so expensive to maintain. If they built a double attraction with some fish in it could it help? I know some fish spawn in fresh water so maybe it could be like a research estuary? Then it wouldn't be too big of a deal if it flooded and fish escaped as they would be native species / the salt water could just be pumped out.

jaxlongtimer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1298
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #207 on: June 21, 2021, 11:10:57 PM »
Honest question as someone who knows nothing about these types of ships... Would it make sense to create a small freshwater alcove on the edge of the river to put the boat in? Almost like a wet dock. Heck they could probably keep some fish in it too. My understanding is the salt water is the biggest reason these things are so expensive to maintain. If they built a double attraction with some fish in it could it help? I know some fish spawn in fresh water so maybe it could be like a research estuary? Then it wouldn't be too big of a deal if it flooded and fish escaped as they would be native species / the salt water could just be pumped out.

I would think you would need a dam up to 10 feet or so to keep the saltier river water from splashing over it during storms/high winds and tides.  And, it's not just the water that would eat away at the ship, but the air too.  Aside from our humidity, accentuated over water, the air near the brackish river (and as sometimes blown in from the ocean in a strong east wind) often carries salt particles in it.  As an aside, with our river dredging, rising seas, dropping spring flows and fresh water extractions, the river is expected to get saltier than it already is feeding even more salt into the air.  Not sure, but "acid rain" may weather a ship no matter its location too.

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 32793
    • Modern Cities
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #208 on: June 22, 2021, 07:00:55 AM »
It would be more cost effective to retrofit the existing MOSH building into a maritime museum after MOSH moves.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

CityLife

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2014
Re: Bring Home The USS Adams To Downtown Jacksonville
« Reply #209 on: June 22, 2021, 10:19:04 AM »
Honest question as someone who knows nothing about these types of ships... Would it make sense to create a small freshwater alcove on the edge of the river to put the boat in? Almost like a wet dock. Heck they could probably keep some fish in it too. My understanding is the salt water is the biggest reason these things are so expensive to maintain. If they built a double attraction with some fish in it could it help? I know some fish spawn in fresh water so maybe it could be like a research estuary? Then it wouldn't be too big of a deal if it flooded and fish escaped as they would be native species / the salt water could just be pumped out.

I would think you would need a dam up to 10 feet or so to keep the saltier river water from splashing over it during storms/high winds and tides.  And, it's not just the water that would eat away at the ship, but the air too.  Aside from our humidity, accentuated over water, the air near the brackish river (and as sometimes blown in from the ocean in a strong east wind) often carries salt particles in it.  As an aside, with our river dredging, rising seas, dropping spring flows and fresh water extractions, the river is expected to get saltier than it already is feeding even more salt into the air.  Not sure, but "acid rain" may weather a ship no matter its location too.

In order to completely prevent brackish water from entering the alcove, you would likely have to drive the seawall sheet piles even deeper than usual and would probably also have to cap the entire bottom to prevent brackish groundwater from seeping up. Seawalls are already expensive, but this would likely be substantially more expensive. Like Lake said, it's probably more cost effective to retrofit MOSH or come up with some other alternative.

Another interesting idea would be to take it completely out of the water and make a park out of it. If Jax really wanted to make it an interesting attraction, you could make water slides, regular slides, or even ziplines off of it. People in Jax are always throwing out boring ideas as things that would get people to jump off 95 and visit downtown. IF there was a way to make it interactive like that, maybe it would work. As a no-name ship without an interesting battle history, that even Turkey did not want as far back as 2000, the ship itself won't do much to interest people outside of Jax.