Author Topic: Lost Jacksonville: The Row  (Read 20018 times)

thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2014, 01:34:10 PM »
Port of Entry.  Meaning that foreign ships coming to the United States could stop in Jville first.  They couldnt in Tampa.

And obviously when we are talking about the history of florida, we are talking about comparative sizes and importance of florida cities.  I don't think anyone was under the illusion that we were talking about Jville in comparison to Rome, Paris, or Bagdad. ;)

This is like debating that Gulfport is more important than Pascagoula. Florida was pretty rural and insignificant during this era. It was the South's smallest state. That says a lot when Mississippi and Alabama had more economic punch. At the end of the day, we all were smurfs. Jax was never a NYC, Chicago or even Atlanta of economic influence in comparison to Florida's cities of similar size back in that era.  If anything, you're looking at one being a Houston and another being a Dallas.  Regional competitor? Sure, but not an LA verses Fresno type of difference.
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thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2014, 01:35:44 PM »
meh.  you havent made much of a case for your final sentence in this last post.  Random citations of imperfectly recorded, partial census figures and thats about it.

Likewise.  I've already stated my case and what would be needed to suggest its off-base. I can pull additional statistical data (and may so later on), but I've got a few more important things to take care of before putting in research time.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 01:38:46 PM by thelakelander »
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thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2014, 01:39:51 PM »
LOL, I just looked back at the thread title. What does this have to do with The Row?
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thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2014, 01:58:17 PM »
^Yes, that is correct. Since you have a problem with the city population numbers I used to illustrate the points I posted, I'll supplement it with core county census numbers from the same period later on.

What do you see in the text that you believe is inaccurate or that you don't agree with? Me claiming that Flagler was not the nail in Jax's coffin, that there were peer communities of similar scale and importance to Jax from that particular area, or that the City of Key West was larger than the City of Jax, according to the 1890 US Census?
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simms3

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2014, 02:27:49 PM »
Whole county populations do exist.  One can see that "Duval" County led the state for quite some time.  However, FL itself was never really an important state.  I'd argue population aside and entertainment value aside, FL still isn't an important state.  So being the "hub" of a non-important state makes everything a moot point.

Jax from 1870-1930 was never the size of a lot of cities across the south.  And it's true that many other cities had something similar to the "Row".  In fact, I'd argue that The Row wasn't the only street of its kind even within Jacksonville.  All of this is somehow irrelevant to the thread.

The Row was a beautiful street that we now really no longer have to the same effect, though I'd argue, those old wooden-framed mansions probably aren't as high and best use as what we have now, which is high rise residential, a beautiful park, apartments, retail, etc.  The area today could certainly be cleaned up, densified, and made more pleasant, but it's about the most photogenic urban nook in the city today and is a nice place to live.

As the city grows, questions will need to be asked of current density levels maintained by restored 1910s/1920s houses/mansions.  I was looking at 2010 Census.  Census tracts in Avondale and Riverside are really NOT dense at all.  3-5,000 ppsm.  That's hardly enough to really support a thriving urban walkable neighborhood and streetcar.  What will we want to do going forward because I'd argue that if we want to spend $100M+ to put streetcar through Avondale, it will all be a waste at current density levels, which don't support strong ridership (not that there's even that much traffic or lack of parking either, so why would people ditch their Mercedes and Lexuses?).

I do wish the Row were better documented and I wish I could find my book on the Cummers, which had lots of pictures.
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thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2014, 02:39:30 PM »
Here are the core county populations of a few "major" Florida cities in the late 19th century and early 20th century. While Pensacola (Escambia) was more of a peer during the reconstruction period, Tampa (Hillsborough) had become the main peer by 1900, primarily due to its port, phosphate, cigars, and the Spanish-American War. Hillsborough passed Duval in population the first decade of the 20th century before having a "setback" with part of the county splitting to form Pinellas (St. Petersburg/Clearwater). Miami-Dade rapidly caught everyone and never looked back after the Great Depression. I believe it's hard to prove that Jax was considerably more economically influential than Tampa at any point in the 20th century and Miami after WWII. By the same token, during the immediate decades following the Civil War, I'm not so sure it was "significantly" more influential than Pensacola. Go back before than and we'd have to start considering the city we lost....Mobile.

1880

19,431 Duval
12,156 Escambia
10,940 Monroe
 5,814 Hillsborough



1890

26,800 Duval
20,188 Escambia
18,006 Monroe
14,941 Hillsborough
   861 Miami-Dade


1900

39,733 Duval
36,013 Hillsborough
28,313 Escambia
18,006 Monroe
 4,955 Miami-Dade


1910

78,374 Hillsborough
75,163 Duval County
38,029 Escambia
21,563 Monroe
11,933 Miami-Dade


1920

113,540 Duval
 88,257 Hillsborough (Pinellas succeeded from Hillsborough in 1912)
 49,386 Escambia
 42,753 Miami-Dade
 28,265 Pinellas
 19,550 Monroe

1930

155,503 Duval
153,519 Hillsborough
142,955 Miami-Dade
 62,149 Pinellas
 53,594 Escambia
 13,624 Monroe


1940

267,739 Miami-Dade
210,143 Duval
180,148 Hillsborough
159,249 Pinellas
 74,667 Escambia
 14,078 Monroe
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thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2014, 02:47:43 PM »
Whole county populations do exist.  One can see that "Duval" County led the state for quite some time.  However, FL itself was never really an important state.  I'd argue population aside and entertainment value aside, FL still isn't an important state.  So being the "hub" of a non-important state makes everything a moot point.

Jax from 1870-1930 was never the size of a lot of cities across the south.  And it's true that many other cities had something similar to the "Row".  In fact, I'd argue that The Row wasn't the only street of its kind even within Jacksonville.  All of this is somehow irrelevant to the thread.

Great points. Thanks for getting the thread back on track.

Quote
The Row was a beautiful street that we now really no longer have to the same effect, though I'd argue, those old wooden-framed mansions probably aren't as high and best use as what we have now, which is high rise residential, a beautiful park, apartments, retail, etc.  The area today could certainly be cleaned up, densified, and made more pleasant, but it's about the most photogenic urban nook in the city today and is a nice place to live.

As the city grows, questions will need to be asked of current density levels maintained by restored 1910s/1920s houses/mansions.  I was looking at 2010 Census.  Census tracts in Avondale and Riverside are really NOT dense at all.  3-5,000 ppsm.  That's hardly enough to really support a thriving urban walkable neighborhood and streetcar.  What will we want to do going forward because I'd argue that if we want to spend $100M+ to put streetcar through Avondale, it will all be a waste at current density levels, which don't support strong ridership (not that there's even that much traffic or lack of parking either, so why would people ditch their Mercedes and Lexuses?).

I do wish the Row were better documented and I wish I could find my book on the Cummers, which had lots of pictures.

Right now, there are no plans for a streetcar in Avondale. A streetcar would make more economic sense initially running from Park & King, through DT and into one of the inner Northside neighborhoods. This why, it would hit some decent existing popular destinations (ex. Five Points, St. Vincents, UF Health, Riverside Avenue--Brooklyn, etc.) while also penetrating areas (like LaVilla, Sugar Hill, Brooklyn, DT, etc.)  where infill and higher density may be more desired. As for other strips like the Row in early Jacksonville, Main Street and Boulevard in Springfield would certainly be on the list.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2014, 03:24:24 PM »
Just a couple of points that I find interesting, prior to the War of Northern Aggression, we dominated the GNP with agriculture dollars, northern industry just wasn't that far developed. In the Mexican American War, over 75% of all soldiers were from the south (something that would have a telling effect during the war with the north). After the War, we still put substantial numbers on the battlefield, during the Spanish American War, Jacksonville and Tampa played staring roles in both. In fact 'The Army of Tennessee,' my Great Grandfathers army became the only 'enemy' army in history to be revived by a foreign power (the USA) and sent into battle in Cuba. By WWI the effects of northern industrialization had changed the landscape of both manpower and supply. Following the depression and the devastating Dust Bowl in Texas-South Dakota, the value of farms and farming bottomed out. Largely rural states from Oklahoma to Florida found themselves on the rocks. Any history of WWII reads more like a history of men from the Bronx then it does men from America, by this time the entire south was in the shadow of todays Rust Belt. Any chance we had at staying on LA's tail died with the collapse of the Great Florida Boom in 1926 and the subsequent Great Depression. During WWII we built just under 100 transport and tanker ships for the war effort, the Oakland California area built 1,400. The numbers in LA, NY, NH etc.. all similar.

Consolidation of the City-County Government is not the same thing as a city annexing a neighboring community. Every city in the country has probably gone through a number of annexations, so did Jax, but Consolidation was a whole new direction. I personally feel it has in the long-term both simplified things and held us back through the lack of choice for new residents and industry. We are just now large enough to enjoy that freedom with spillover into the neighboring counties. Arguably this is something that could have been done long ago with a fully independent South Jacksonville, Mandarin, etc.

Lake you mentioned Cedar Key being bypassed, I agree but if there was ever a city in Florida that should have leaped its natural harbor and become a metropolitan area its Cedar Key. They boasted a terminus of the first true trunkline railroad in the state. The cedar lumber industry sent them into the stratosphere after the Un-Civil War. Pencils nationwide, National, Foley etc... were all made in Cedar Key. Sponge fleets docked at the wharves along with ocean going vessels from throughout the globe. Commercial fishing was once and still is a huge part of the economy there. Discovery of the Cedar Key oil field and working oil wells were just one more feather in their caps. Tourism was always strong too considering their size. Their mistake was not shepherding their resources and clear cutting the cedar and then the cypress to the point where rail traffic fell off. Not keeping up with the port and allowing that business to drift to Tampa, Panama City or Pensacola was also disastrous. In the end they lost the railroad too. Today, Cedar Key is the land that time forgot, forever locked in 1890-1920, at the end of a long two lane highway. They have however maintained their charm, as many Jimmy Buffett fans can tell you he might live in the Florida Keys (down south) but he knows where to go to write his songs... CEDAR KEY.

As for our own Row? I remember the streetcar tracks in the neighborhood on Edison, and that TU building didn't take out a wharf or warehouse, it was the Jacksonville Traction Company's Power House!


Cedar Key


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Cedar Key Oil Number One or Two


Cedar Key Oil Today.

thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2014, 03:25:39 PM »
Just pointing out that the numbers simply arent accurate, for all of the reasons above listed.  They reflect different geographical areas, dont count non resident residents, and dont count black people or native americans---both of which were pretty important to the history and development of the city.

Ok. The county numbers recently posted explain the same thing. The census has counted all black people and native americans since 1890.
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thelakelander

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2014, 03:46:19 PM »
Just pointing out that the numbers simply arent accurate, for all of the reasons above listed.  They reflect different geographical areas, dont count non resident residents, and dont count black people or native americans---both of which were pretty important to the history and development of the city.

Ok. The county numbers recently posted explain the same thing. The census has counted all black people and native americans since 1890.

Well actually, they continued on counting native americans separately until the 1960s for what its worth.

and considering that the first set of numbers shows key west as more populous than Jville and the second set shows Duval as always having more people than all four counties with the exception of the decade after the Great Fire, Im not sure how you think that they show the same thing?
Key West is a city on an island and most of Monroe County is Everglades. Both sets of numbers show that there was never one clear leader (city or city+suburbs or neighboring cities) that was head and shoulders above others 100 years ago....which was the point I was attempting to make. Great pics, BTW.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: Lost Jacksonville: The Row
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2014, 09:07:52 PM »
Here you go Lake, one for the book, on the row...


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