River City Marketplace: A Boom in North Jacksonville

[spuwho]

I think my post was misunderstood.

I don't think RCMP caused Gateway's problems, hardly.

What I am saying is the next big retail adventure farther up the road (I used I-95 & A1A as an example) will probably turn RCMP into the next Gateway at some future time.

Jacksonville has a history of retail waves that come then move on. I was using RCMP as the next example.

Based on the last 60 years in this town, RCMP will face its first bump in the road in around 15-20.

[I-10east]

^^^You say that a future mall will turn RCMP into 'the next Gateway', and I totally disagree. Gateway's main abandoned state is it's antiquated indoor mall, which RCMP doesn't even have. Location-wise, comparing those two malls are night & day. Gateway has definitely seen better days, but DTLR was a recent addition to Gateway's outdoor mall, with zilch being moved inside the melancholy indoors.

It seem like it's hard for people to realize that urban planning can go wrong (like the Landing) and suburban styles could prosper (like the Avenues, or RCMP) or vice versa. It doesn't get by some that maybe many people actually embraces suburban lifestyles, and everywhere doesn't need four story garages, with a compact two story footprint. 

[I-10east]

RCMP will be fine for the unforeseeable future (regardless of it's suburban status with little transit etc) as long as it regards these key rules.

1. Keeping up with the Joneses. Maintain it's standard with the national chains. Most of the big boxes there are very stable companies.

2. Do not become overran by the crime/delinquent element. Something that no one wants to talk about it's that sometimes that very preached on holy grail 'great transit' could potentially bring in a bad element to the mall (like the delinquents running amuck on Christmas; I'm not against RCMP having improved transit) The bad element is the #1 reason that Regency is the way it is now, not RCMP's existence. 

[Keith-N-Jax]

Yes despite the complaints on here the area seems to be doing well and is a nice addition to the area. People in America are pretty much used to these types of shopping developments. For DT yes a more walkable plan should be desired. I like shopping at the Lowes and Kirklands there. Haven't been there in a while though. 

[thelakelander]

I do agree with spuwho that RCMP will eventually decline. These types of centers tend to have a 15 to 20 year life span before the next best and greatest thing that accommodates the latest trends and demographics, sucks them dry.

[strider]

Frankly, I often pass on going there because it is such a pain to drive around and you can not walk.  I remember being a tourist coming to the South and liking the outdoor mall atmosphere of many shopping centers, where you could park and walk anywhere you needed to go. So, I go to RCMP when I HAVE to. Or occasionally for a particular restaurant or a movie, but then when I go for those reasons, I go no where else in the complex.

 Unfortunately it seems that developments like this are not done because it is what the potential clientele wants, it is done this way because it costs less or it is what the bigger box store anchors say they want and/ or are comfortable with.  Saying that is it what the public wants seems incorrect. Why would the public want dangerous to walk and dangerous to drive around? There just isn't a better choice.  Yet.

[thelakelander]

COJ's zoning drives this style of development.  I've visited similar projects all over the country that accommodate big boxes just as well, while also meeting local community goals and visions.  Here's a similar center in a San Diego suburb.  It includes a light rail station in the middle of the parking lot.

San Diego Trolley (LRT) system map


The images below are of the Santee Town Center which is located at the end of the Green Line.



Lots of parking for cars, like any other suburban strip mall. Yet, laid out to include transit and facilitate pedestrian movement internally without much auto conflict.



Restaurant outparcels are lined against the main street. Landscaping buffers the main street's sidewalks from fast moving auto traffic.



Light rail terminates in the middle of the shopping center. The middle is a pedestrian plaza (similar to the one at SJTC). Behind it is a small bus terminal.





Several riders appeared to bike to stations in other parts of the city, then use transit to access big boxes typically not present in urban core areas.



Since LRT splits the center of the property, a parallel landscaped promendade is provided for bikers and pedestrians to move from the major street intersection to the shops without having to navigate the surface parking areas.

In general, this suburban shopping center is not laid out any differently from a Markets at Town Center, Oakleaf Town Center or Sleiman's project at Atlantic and Kernan.

What it has that Jax's centers lack is proper integration of land use policy and transit infrastructure investment. That's all about zoning and land use at the local level. Not developer and shopper preference.

[IrvAdams]

Wow, Lake, thanks. This shows us what to shoot for. There is no reason in the world that we cannot strive to produce such a retail and entertainment environment. The public and the powers that be, who report to us, need to step up our game and expect something superior.

[I-10east]

Yes despite the complaints on here the area seems to be doing well and is a nice addition to the area. People in America are pretty much used to these types of shopping developments.

+100

[strider]

Yes despite the complaints on here the area seems to be doing well and is a nice addition to the area. People in America are pretty much used to these types of shopping developments.

+100

Used to them or just not currently being offered many better alternatives?  New and shiny works no matter how bad to drive around or how bad to walk around when there is need because nothing else is offered.

Lake, like that concept, any hope Jacksonville will see this ever?

[ProjectMaximus]

Yes despite the complaints on here the area seems to be doing well and is a nice addition to the area. People in America are pretty much used to these types of shopping developments.

+100

Used to them or just not currently being offered many better alternatives?  New and shiny works no matter how bad to drive around or how bad to walk around when there is need because nothing else is offered.

Right, I know a number of suburbanites who are big fans of SJTC and also couldn't care less about smart planning. But they complain incessantly about the traffic and parking over there, and you can be certain they'd appreciate better planning if they experienced it. I think this is true of most human beings.

[thelakelander]

Strider, we just have to keep fighting and hitting people over the head about the benefits of tying together the concept of common sense with public tax dollars.  To further illustrate what coordinated land use planning and transit infrastructure investment can do, here are a few more stations along that suburban LRT line:

Qualcomm Stadium (San Diego Chargers play here)


Station Village TOD (model in sales center)


Station Village (real life)


Mission Valley Center Station

The rail line runs along the back side of a strip mall called Park Valley Center.  In the middle of the shopping center is a courtyard, where the Mission Valley Center LRT Station is located. Anchors include Best Buy, Thomasville Furniture and Pier One Imports. There's a Panda Express and Sammy's Woodfired Pizza adjacent to the LRT station.  There's also a large suburban mall across the street.  A wide landscaped sidewalk connects transit riders from the plaza to the mall across the street.

Hazard Center Station


The back of Hazard Center, a strip mall, is located on the other side of a four lane road from the LRT's Hazard Center Station. Tenants include Smashburger, Applebees, Joe's Crab Shack, a Hilton hotel and a Barnes & Noble. Below, a view of the rail station across the street from the shopping center's main entrance.





^Surface parking for the shopping center is located in the front of the center near a freeway interchange.

This last image is kind of hard to see. However, this is the parking lot of Fashion Valley Mall. It's a LRT stop and local bus terminal behind JCPenney.



Inside Fashion Valley Mall



Traffic in the area still sucks but residents do have the option of using reliable mass transit to get to the same suburban destinations. The images above represent what coordination of land use and transit investment can do for Jacksonville and moving people between suburban destinations like RCMP and SJTC.

[jaxjags]

Lakelander, how do we JTA to take a system like the SD trolley seriously today. My thoughts are that future routes for this need to be set way early to make it easier for developers to incorporate, even if it may 10 years or more out. As an example take RCMP. If JTA had said 10 years ago, not today, that a light rail would parallel Main Street to Max Legget Parkway, then it could have been designed into the Florida Health property, RCMP, Airport Exit modification (which are in plans for future) to cross I95 and the airport. Seems to me it will be harder and more expensive after the fact. At least right of way would be reserved and future plans would include design elements. But it seams JTA is stuck on buses.

[IrvAdams]

Maybe it has to with funds? Are buses cheaper? This gets back to Jax being one of the lowest-taxed cities in the country. You get what you pay for. Taxes are a necessary fuel for public amenities and transportation.

[thelakelander]

Lakelander, how do we JTA to take a system like the SD trolley seriously today. My thoughts are that future routes for this need to be set way early to make it easier for developers to incorporate, even if it may 10 years or more out. As an example take RCMP. If JTA had said 10 years ago, not today, that a light rail would parallel Main Street to Max Legget Parkway, then it could have been designed into the Florida Health property, RCMP, Airport Exit modification (which are in plans for future) to cross I95 and the airport. Seems to me it will be harder and more expensive after the fact. At least right of way would be reserved and future plans would include design elements. But it seams JTA is stuck on buses.

Jax is no different from San Diego. In fact, we were in the same position 30 years ago. San Diego started off with a 13-mile starter LRT line on an existing railroad track in 1981, while Jax opened the first segment of the Skyway a few years later.  Over the years, San Diego has worked to extend their system and coordinate land use planning to make the most of their public investment.  Here, we gave up after the Skyway reached 2.5 miles and have never properly integrated land use policies or the full coordination of the local bus system with that major initial investment. Thus, the results have been different.

We're not starting from scratch.  We need better coordination of land use policy along with a commitment to actually invest in the infrastructure incrementally.  JTA already has a strategic plan and the mobility plan modified to comp plan to allow for and incentivize TOD along proposed transit corridors and station sites. What we still lack is real life commitment to invest in construction.  Until that happens, we're limited to what we have with the Skyway (which, IMO, is more than enough to immediately start incrementally). It will take decades to properly connect suburbs like the Town Center or Beaches with the urban core, with anything other than rubber wheeled buses, so don't expect much TOD activity around Jax. However, we can drive progress in the urban core initially (like San Diego) and expand outward over the years. With that said, going back to the San Diego pictures, that LRT line opened in 2005.....24 years after the initial LRT line opened.  That corridor is similar to JTB between I-95 and the beaches. Many of it's destinations were already in place. Stations just happened to placed immediately adjacent to those existing shopping centers, hospitals, schools, industrial parks, etc. and buildings immediately adjacent to those stops were retrofitted to become more pedestrian friendly. We can eventually do the same with spots like RCMP but first we have to commit to actually investing in transit that stimulates transit oriented development.