Author Topic: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings  (Read 24198 times)

Lunican

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2007, 02:52:55 PM »
First Christian Church is no longer an endangered structure. It was put out of its misery:


thelakelander

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2007, 05:03:37 PM »
I passed by the site yesterday.  One can't help but notice that the Porter House looks pretty suburban and lonely on that block.  Any update on KBJ's plans?  Will they pave a new parking lot or will they just park on the dirt?
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Bruin Brain

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2007, 04:49:02 PM »
I'd like to clear up some basic misconceptions about a building's historical significance or value as best I can. I'm very wordy, and I'm going to be unapologetic about it today! To summarize the following mindnumbing sludge: a building doesn't have to be unique or special to warrant preservation.



1) If you look at the national register, state registers, and local registers of historic sites, each have similar criteria for evaluation of importance that are more complex than simply "architectural" or "historical."

Jacksonville's Local Historic Designation Process

National Register Criteria for Evaluation


And though preservation isn't just putting a site on a list, similar considerations should be used for evaluating the significance of any historic structure or site before action is to alter the site, be that nat'l/state/local register nomination, demolition, preservation/restoration/rehabilitation/reconstruction, and my biggest pet peeve: neglect! Economics should NOT be the only determining factor in every case. And by default, in our capitalist society, significance surely never is the only determining factor.



2) A building's significance is about connections and context, not merely popularity, general public knowledge/opinion/values at a given time (such as the present). Whether the general local public at a given time knows anything about a certain building or site is really separate from its connections to historical figures, events, trends, cultures, the contextual landscape, and the language of architecture, as well as its popularity and prominence in light of differing public values in the past and/or future.




For a broader, more philosophical view, the following are excerpts from a presentation by Marc Laenen, director of the Provincial Center of Cultural Heritage in Limburg, Belgium, in March, 2007 at the second conference of the International Council on Monuments and Sites (ICOMOS) International Scientific Committee on Theory and Philosophy of Conservation and Restoration, good grief this is a long name! in Florence, Italy. Keep in mind parts of this suffer from poor translation or transcription. Also keep in mind that while we say "historic" and "preservation," Europeans tend to use the words "heritage" and "conservation" with the same basic meanings. Go here to read the full article: http://www.fondazione-delbianco.org/seminari/progetti_prof/progview.asp?id=258

Quote
Author : Mr Marc Laenen

‘Considerations about criteria for heritage values continuity’

Most of the charters, recommendations and publications consider heritage values as the core for the understanding of the ‘significance of the place’ and as the basis for conservation concepts and practice. It is commonly accepted that conservation in living heritage areas is to be understood as the management of creative change of values within a process of continuity.

In several publications heritage values are identified and clustered into substantive qualities (historic, aesthetic, environmental, social, associative …. values) and use-values (monetary, functional … values). They are categories, results from human thought, defined within cultural contexts in time and space attributed to heritage resources and adopted or to be adopted by the members of the living communities. They are complex, interwoven with other values, present in the fabric of historic towns villages and landscapes and shape the identity, the specific character of the place that we intend to preserve. Methods to identify and assess heritage values leading to statements of significance and management plans exist. They are not confined to immovable heritage but apply as well for movable and intangible heritage. These values and their appraisal change over time We experienced in the last decades value shifts, expansions, new interpretations, re – valuation and ‘de-valuation’.

Immovable heritage appraisal was based on artistic or historic values in the XIXth century. Only in the seventies of the XXth centuries environmental, social and associative values where included. The notion ‘heritage’ has been expanded in time, thematic areas (vernacular architecture, historic towns and villages, cultural landscape, intangible heritage) and approaches such as integrated conservation..

Analyses of the fabric heritage sites reveals, the reasons why changes where introduced and the substantial social cultural and spatial consequences they caused. This way a lot of heritage was lost

In the province we develop Masterplans for unlocking heritage values for the local population and their visitors. In the fertile region of Haspengouw a first Actionplan has been drafted. Haspengouw is an open field landscape still reflecting the feudal social systems in the structure of landscape , the settlements, the fields, the castles and manor houses with their dependences .They still structure the landscape today. The main objective of the programme is to strengthen and ensure the continuity of the character of this cultural landscape trough the dynamic conservation or development and unlocking of its heritage values for the local population in the first, and to their visitors in the second place within regional development. By unlocking we understand offering a broad heritage experience in several fields of development: economy ( tourism ),cultural development , education, environmental care and planning ….

While dealing with this regional programme we where confronted with the question whether absolute universal objective and therefore ever lasting values exist or heritage valuing is in principle a relative assessment, relative in time and space, relative to other values and interests and is a social attribution of qualities to heritage resources that gives them a value for us today and here and maybe for others tomorrow. We understood that we had to focus and that value judgement had to be based on knowledge, supported by authoritative documentation by multidisciplinary research and that the experience of heritage values needed a strategy for communication. .

Using criteria in value judgment seemed helpful to identify relative importance and the power of heritage resources for unlocking policies but that it was exclusive for less sexy heritage issues. In addition to that the sum of positive points does not offer a comprehensive understanding of the significance of the site, which is much more complex due to interests sensitivities and values of different stake holders.

Therefore a prudent, respectful, sensitive attitude with as little as possible drastic and with reversible interventions on the resources seemed a more appropriate approach. It is based on the consciousness of our shared responsibility as temporary owners or ‘managers’ of heritage and on solidarity with mankind: future generations as well as our predecessors. All input is to be considered within global ethics.

Unfortunately we don’t have qualitative criteria yet to measure heritage conservation impact in sustainable human development which would guide us in our value judgements as our colleagues in environmental care have. This is in my view one of the priorities for research in heritage conservation for the next years.


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...the local population, which is our first target audience, experiences its heritage globally as a something holistic, not segmented into objects, buildings, customs and stories as some administrations in Europe still do. Hence the need for all heritage sectors to forge synergies in development programmes.

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...all heritage, including immaterial heritage, is situated somewhere. Cultural landscapes are heritage context and have become heritage themselves, subject to development. In this contextual approach, we meet our partners from environment, culture, economy, education and planning, who are working in the same cultural or heritage landscapes

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Again, the full article is here: http://www.fondazione-delbianco.org/seminari/progetti_prof/progview.asp?id=258




Basically, I think what many people recognize but don't express in so many words is that a building is not simply isolated in time and space and must not be ignored in the context of the heritage of the district or city as a whole, therefor its individual significance can be almost nil and people are nonetheless justified in calling for its preservation. People seem to understand that it's ethically questionable to demolish a whole district or town or city and replace it with something entirely new, even if the context - the heritage of the nation or globe - is barely scathed. This is because a district, town, or city has a heritage, a history, that is worth preserving in and of itself. Yet, when it comes to individual buildings in the context of the city, people are too quick to write off their destruction as no intangible loss at all! However, it is the very loss of numerous individual buildings that amount to the destruction or near destruction of a district, town, or city and thus the heritage of not just the individual buildings, but the context from which they are inseparable.

[/soapbox]  ;D

big ben

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2007, 09:15:40 PM »
i'm against demolishing buildings in general. 

i used to live in a building that basically looked like a couple of blocks stacked together.  it was a shoe factory, then a baby carriage factory.  if there's anything insignificant historically, it's probably a factory.  the most architecturally significant feature of the building itself (an entrance that wasn't brick and had an engraving i can't remember) was facing an alley.  about 10-15 years ago, a wall fell of it onto the highway next to it, but instead of being demolished, they repaired it and eventually it was restored and turned into 100+ loft apartments with a wonderful downtown skyline (it was about 0.5 miles south of the rest of the skyline). 

to me, it's not about being necessarily historically significant, it's about urban living and reusing the buildings that we have.  luckily for my former city (st. louis), there was a very large amount of old buildings that were sitting empty and not being knocked down.  many of them were very basic looking and not in good shape.  the st. louis brewery (makes schlafly beer) started in a downtown building where the sun could apparently be seen shining through the roof from the basement in 1991, years before the loft-district boom that hit there. 

this might sound like a bad idea to others, but i think that considering how downtown seems to be growing, it'd be better to save the buildings that aren't in good shape for later if they're not financially worth renovating at the moment.  especially considering the fact that demolished buildings apparently end up as surface parking, or less.  if newer buildings actually are built, the older buildings will look more and more out of place and i believe there will be a bigger push to demolish the old buildings. 

btw, i find the old library extremely ugly, but i was relieved to hear that someone is going to renovate.  as far as i know, st. louis still doesn't have a grocery store of any kind downtown.  +5 pts jacksonville. 

unfortunately, i do not have enough money to make these decisions.  i also currently live at the beach and hate it.  anyone have an opinion on the best apartment building to live in downtown? give me a private message.

thelakelander

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2007, 10:13:15 PM »
btw, i find the old library extremely ugly, but i was relieved to hear that someone is going to renovate.  as far as i know, st. louis still doesn't have a grocery store of any kind downtown.  +5 pts jacksonville.

Here's a cool one in Downtown St. Louis.  Hopefully, whatever goes into 122 Ocean will be just as impressive.

City Grocers - St. Louis
This 2 story 6,500sf market includes a bakery and cafe serving breakfast & lunch



www.city-grocers.com
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big ben

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2007, 10:34:31 PM »
hmmm....i never actually went there and for some reason everyone else gave me the impression that it was more of just a deli than an actual grocer.  i guess these were people who were thinking more suburban.  my mistake.

Timkin

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2008, 11:18:47 PM »


 Regarding PS 4.....


 It is my undestanding that develpment on the School could begin in as soon as two months. It is my hope that this, and particularly  Lola Culver will be preserved as both have unique and inviting architecture.

 Really ...All of these structures deserve a reuse...They are testiment to age and durability.  A reuse for each of these locations should be feasible.  Lets preserve what remains.

mtraininjax

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #22 on: February 29, 2008, 01:57:36 AM »
LOL, I love the building huggers. Should we save FS #4, sure, but where do you move it. The land is too valuable to leave a fire station NEXT TO THE RIVER!!!!! Endangered buildings, well, what about the gutted and empty old JEA building at Duval and Julia Streets? That dump has been empty for at least 5 years. The thing that is killing the Seminole Club is that besides City Hall, the Church with its 9 blocks, and JEA, there is not much in that area. Peyton and his courthouse have some to blame for that.  :-\
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Timkin

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2008, 05:11:13 PM »

Quote:

     I suppose you think the old Haydon Burns Library is good looking too.



 I dont want to get into a p.....g match with anyone here about historic structures.  Seems everyone has their preference of Historical Significance.  Personally I think the Haydon Burns Library is the UGLIEST structure in downtown.. but then there are probably alot that think the Annie Lytle School should go. Or the Park View Inn ( umm is that a historic structure yet? I hope not) 

  I AGREE that a building does not have to be striking or beautiful to have significance, and I think that if it is possible AT ALL to save and reuse an existing building such as Annie Lytle or the Lola Culvert School, they should be. Same with the Baptist convention ctr, or Haydon Burns.  Lets save what history we have and not tear it down.. The Church certainly didnt NEED to be demolished, it was not in that bad of shape.

  My opion about architectural fabric is , that we have so little of it from 50-100 years ago, that we should save anything we can possibly save , even if it costs more to do so.  Cities Like Rome, Paris, London, take pride and have for centuries on preserving some of their oldest creations. Here in the United States, we live in a ..pretty much throw-away society.  Its old so get rid of it, and I dont agree.

 Regarding Annie Lytle....hopefully soon it will be removed from the endangered list.  With regard to Fire Station 5 , theres little doubt it can be relocated somewhere in Brooklyn, seeing as most of Brooklyn has been demolished.

 :)   

orlandosgurl494

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2008, 09:34:24 PM »
Annie Lytle should definitely not be touched. That place is scary and supposedly haunted, I don't think a bunch of retirees would want to live there.

Coolyfett

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2008, 10:23:12 PM »
Annie Lytle should definitely not be touched. That place is scary and supposedly haunted, I don't think a bunch of retirees would want to live there.


:-[ TIM....I don't know this person. I swear!
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Timkin

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2008, 11:21:50 PM »
There are videos on the internet depicting A/L as Haunted.   Theres no doubt that its rundown look and overgrowth all over it certainly lend to it a haunted look. 

 This in turn ATTRACTS to it, vandals (for decades)  Vagrants (for decades) and its latest enemy, satanists and people going into it supposedly hearing children singing , or some stupid nonsense , which is in fact ALL there is to that.  If you go on to youtube and search for haunted schools , you ll see at least 30 videos ,, two of which contain A/L.   

 There is some paranormal site that has made a  knock off video , which is simply pictures taken of the exterior of the School ... with some nice haunted music and narration to go along with it.

 When I see it with my own two eyes , I ll belive it.. but I dont and never did belive School Four is haunted.

 It simply ran out its life as a School House , by an expressway being installed in its front yard.  Likely had that not happened, it would still be in use.   Its unfortunate setting with a flyover ramp, still overgrown, dilapidated , overgrowth and disrepair , fuels this incessant , stupid notion of the School being Haunted.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2008, 06:05:19 PM by Timkin »

Timkin

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2008, 11:36:22 PM »
Annie Lytle should definitely not be touched. That place is scary and supposedly haunted, I don't think a bunch of retirees would want to live there.


:-[ TIM....I don't know this person. I swear!

 Its all good Cooly.  I cant stop people from going into the Building or saying its Haunted. I simply belive that it is NOT haunted. everyone is entitled to belive what they wish.

 I am hoping to bring about a change to the look of the place.   If the owner will allow it.

second_pancake

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2008, 09:00:23 AM »
Seriously??  This is where we're going regarding what to do with buildings, paranormal delusions???  How about we try and turn this back around and discuss things on a higher plain, like through reason and rationality.

I don't care how ugly a building is, how old, or how long it's been sitting there.  The reason one should not destroy a building is because it was put there in the first place.  There was a plan, there was a purpose, and as long as there still is a purpose, we need to find ways to use what we have. 

There is no good reason to knock down a building for the sake of putting another in its place.  Buildings should not ever go into such a state of disrepair that they must be demolished, but rather it is up to us as the designers, builders and owners to take pride in our achievements and take care of what we've worked so hard to acheive.  If we did that...if we had pride at all, we'd repurpose the buildings we have and keep them as a symbol of one's acheivement.
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Timkin

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Re: Jacksonville's Most Endangered Historic Buildings
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2008, 06:10:05 PM »
I see a pattern with vacant buildings ...almost always  the windows get kicked out and the grafitting begins.

 Then you have satanists and rituals of that sort going on in them.


 I am keeping close tabs on PS # 4.... and Im starting to feel encouraged about its situation. I now belive it is about to undergo a revitilization.....long overdue for it.  and  hopefully end the 30 plus years of vandalism and destruction inflicted heavily on the interior of the Structure.

 I guess in that situation , wheter it had been grafittied or not, it would have to be brought to modern codes interiorwise.. so either way , the grafitti is hopefully about to go bye bye forever.