Author Topic: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?  (Read 233683 times)

fieldafm

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #285 on: March 15, 2014, 06:22:20 PM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside. Food trucks that later open fixed locations have created over a hundred jobs here in Jacksonville (Corner Taco, Pele's, Blind Fig/Rabbit, etc.) Perhaps DIA would be better off scrapping their "balancing act" approach for a wholistic approach that would keep truck-to-table businesses downtown for the long-haul.

I wonder how perspectives would differ between existing B&Ms downtown and these, if located downtown, given that they were once food trucks themselves. How would they feel about the "threat" of other trucks now that they've joined the ranks of the "threatened" B&M crowd?

(from ronchamblin)   Bingo.  I have some allies in my thinking. Whoever you are .... thank you both  :) Perhaps I'm not a practicing idiot after all.


I can answer that. Every one of the food truck owners who either already had a B&M before adding a food truck, or had a food truck and 'graduated, if you will' to a food truck.. have all come out in support of food trucks at any public meetings in the fight to bring food trucks to Jax Beach or this latest 'effort' by Reggie Brown. Even B&M's that don't have food trucks have come out in support.

Downtown's largest landlord of restaurants (Jacksonville Landing), has also supported food trucks downtown.


Mr. fieldafm ... forgive me please, but it sounds like claims having rather questionable support from reality ....... attempts to convince, by way of offering rhetoric having a very weak base.  Your attempts to avoid the essence of the issue is showing.  ;)


Are you f'ing kidding me?!?
 

Scrub Palmetto

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #286 on: March 15, 2014, 06:55:36 PM »
Thanks for answering, fieldafm. I will take your word for it, because I see it as a silly risk to make up such a thing on a public forum of a localized focus, where any of the people you're speaking about could step in and refute you.

It would be nice, however, if some of the food truck owners and B&M restaurant owners -- the people actually affected by this -- both in support and in opposition would get in on this thread, though I know they're probably busy and stressed enough as it is. Without them, the discussion seems to be unprogressing. I wish I could see the progress being made here that you do, Ron, but after skimming what could fill a whole day of reading, I'm not left with a good sense that any has been made.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #287 on: March 15, 2014, 08:32:13 PM »
You guys should go en masse and camp out on Nate Fords doorstep over at myrtle Avenue. JTA should eat this up, with their so-called BRT and several Park and Ride locations. Even a little success could spell a huge captive clientele.

ronchamblin

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #288 on: March 16, 2014, 01:28:29 AM »
Progress on any issue proceeds at varying rates according to the quality of each input or post - at times moving forward with somewhat clear illustration -- but occasionally slowing as we rest and digest, or exhibit emotion and defense ... or carelessness in our thinking.  I suppose that the objective on any debate is to illustrate, as one is inclined and able, images from one’s mind, as related to the subject at hand.

This, and other forums, allows one to exercise skill at writing, debating, and thinking logically and productively about subjects of interests.  Some of us remain silent on some subjects, feeling no knowledge or passion to it .. saving our time and energy for subjects which hold our interest, or to which we feel best suited.

This food truck issue is interesting to me, not because I fear competition, but because I sometimes enjoy engaging seemingly awkward and difficult problems, especially when I think I see certain aspects which, according to my belief, are absent in the minds of some others.  Most of us, enjoying challenges and troubleshooting, enjoy also the exercise of conveying images related to these challenges.

So .... progress on reaching a consensus on difficult and somewhat complex problems might seem slow or even zero, but all the while, I suspect that most involved in the debate have, to varying degrees, been enlightened by what others have said.  I know that I’ve learned more about the issue, and have shaped my understanding and position to what I suspect is a better one, as a consequence of the arguments of others.

ronchamblin

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #289 on: March 16, 2014, 01:48:05 AM »
The food truck issue is more involved than some believe it to be.  To oversimplify an issue, and to depend on this oversimplification as a basis for making decisions, is to run the risk of making wrong decisions.  Your suggestion, Scrub Palmetto, that not much progress has been made, seems valid.  The lack of progress is because we've not yet focused on the real and fundamental aspects of the issue. 

The food truck issue, although seeming simple and solvable via allowing extended freedoms to these trucks, is to expose the fragile city core to dynamics which could impede efforts to revitalize.

My intention has been to discuss what I believe to be some of the peripheral and somewhat hidden consequences of allowing excessive freedoms to food trucks in the core.

As I’ve said before, regarding the food trucks in the core -- extremes to over-regulation, or to total freedom, should not be --  but a middle ground is the key, as the food truck will definitely be a plus for the core, as long as their presence is reasonable, and strategically allowed.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 02:25:30 AM by ronchamblin »

ronchamblin

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #290 on: March 16, 2014, 01:10:31 PM »
Thanks for the comment Stephen.  One should value the ability and inclination to imagine, as it encourages and allows creativity, prepares one for imagining the structure of a somewhat difficult problem, and thus better prepare for its solution.  A fertile imagination often allows one's perception of important images not available to some.  Of course, the imagination can, if not limited by reality, be evidence of one's drift ever so slowly toward instability, or the insane.

icarus

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #291 on: March 16, 2014, 01:17:45 PM »
I guess Downtown Disney isn't worried about food trucks competing with the brick and mortar establishments.



Quote
News! “Food Truck Park” Coming to Disney World’s Downtown Disney in Summer 2014

http://www.disneyfoodblog.com/2014/03/14/news-food-truck-park-coming-to-disney-worlds-downtown-disney-in-summer-2014/

Charles Hunter

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #292 on: March 16, 2014, 02:48:58 PM »
I guess a basic question is - what does the current law allow? Where, downtown, can food trucks set up now?
 I was under the impression R. Brown's original bill was to restrict FT locations, not allow them to go someplace they can't go now.

*bump* since it seems to have become lost in the back-and-forth

IrvAdams

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #293 on: March 16, 2014, 03:38:45 PM »
I guess a basic question is - what does the current law allow? Where, downtown, can food trucks set up now?
 I was under the impression R. Brown's original bill was to restrict FT locations, not allow them to go someplace they can't go now.

*bump* since it seems to have become lost in the back-and-forth

Charles, this exact question was brought up in the first committee meeting regarding FTs last Wednesday. CM Brown seemed amenable to ideas regarding FTs possibly setting up in public areas; someone mentioned Hemming Plaza or a side street where trucks could gather.

It was stated by the city officials present that the purpose of the gathering was to rework CM Brown's proposed legislation line by line in a fashion agreeable to all who were participating in the discussion, which was almost exclusively FT owner/operators.

No one stated what the exact rules were now as to where and when truck(s) could currently park. But also, no one stated categorically what areas were excluded. To be fair, the meeting went on for 2 1/2 hours and is not yet finished. Another meeting will be scheduled in a week or so. It was extremely interesting to attend, and I will try to make the next one also.

Sorry to not answer your question fully, but it's still a work in progress. Also a disclaimer that I am neither a B&M or a FT owner nor am I affiliated. I am just a concerned citizen who is 100 percent in favor of free trade and bright, pretty food trucks serving their delicious fare on every corner in the Core if they wish. Capitalism and competition rock.
“He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still”
- Lao Tzu

ronchamblin

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #294 on: March 16, 2014, 03:51:23 PM »
Another case of myopia.

tufsu1

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #295 on: March 16, 2014, 04:23:19 PM »
Icarus...Disney isn't worried in part because they are completely revamping Downtown Disney (into Disney Springs)....so all of the retailers will have new spaces and likely new deals...meaning they will know about the food trucks from the get-go

icarus

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #296 on: March 16, 2014, 05:20:12 PM »
Actually, if you look at what the existing food trucks in Downtown Disney do, its kind of an economic argument against what Ron has been pushing on here:

1. The food trucks serve food that is not available in Downtown Disney from the brick and mortar establishments.
2. It encourages more people to stay in Downtown Disney by offering food choices to hungry shoppers/tourists who may not be looking for the sit down experience or who otherwise would have left the area to eat (convenience).
3. It creates a more dynamic and vibrant environment by bringing more activity to the streetscape.
4.  Shows how that far from detracting from the brick and mortar establishments, the food trucks have formed a symbiotic relationship that works.

When have you ever known Disney to support anything that doesn't make economic sense ... lets call it the 'mouse theory' of economics.  ;) And, of course, the article just served as an ironic counter point to illustrate the absurdity of some of the arguments for regulation.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 06:53:42 PM by icarus »

ronchamblin

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #297 on: March 16, 2014, 06:15:44 PM »
Actually, if you look at what the existing food trucks in Downtown Disney, its kind of an economic argument against what Ron has been pushing on here:

1. The food trucks serve food that is not available in Downtown Disney from the brick and mortar establishments.
2. It encourages more people to stay in Downtown Disney by offering food choices to hungry shoppers/tourists who may not be looking for the sit down experience or who otherwise would have left the area to eat (convenience).
3. It creates a more dynamic and vibrant environment by bringing more activity to the streetscape.
4.  Shows how that far from detracting from the brick and mortar establishments, the food trucks have formed a symbiotic relationship that works.

When have you ever known Disney to support anything that doesn't make economic sense ... lets call it the 'mouse theory' of economics.  ;) And, of course, the article just served as an ironic counter point to illustrate the absurdity of some of the arguments for regulation.

icarua ..... The Disney environment is much different than the Jax city core, don't you think.  There is already a big draw of people into the Disney environment.  There are "lots" of people in the area.  Therefore, there is little reason to regulate the food trucks.  Why?  Because there is enough business for all the restaurants ... B & M, and mobile.

Why is the Jax city core different?  Don't you think there is less people in the Jax core?  There is no big draw in the core to provide customers for both the B & M "and" the food trucks.  Therefore, don't you think that comparing policies at Disney to those concerning the Jax core is ..... well, missing an important point concerning customer population vs the existing B & M in the core meeting the demand? 

As I've said several times, if the proposed food truck invasion is allowed; that is, if the food trucks are allowed excessively into the core, and are allowed to be within a few hundred feet of the B & M restaurants, and "IF" the presence of the food trucks does not "draw" sufficient new customers into the core so that there is enough business for both the B & M "and" the food trucks, then we are looking at some B & M failures - and thus, more vacant buildings. 

Again ... the B & M restaurants in the core opened in the core, expecting competition to be limited to "fixed" B & M's having the potential to open in the area.  Their business plan did not prepare for the expectation that mobile panzer food truck units would invade the core, and be allowed free reign in it ..... killing the B & M's one by one by starving them out.

For legislation to allow excessive numbers of these food truck panzer units  ;D into the core, and too close to the B & M's, would be an act of treason against the B & M's, who've done their best to occupy fixed locations in the core, thus providing a plus for building occupancy, and thus a nudge toward revitalization of the core. 

My position confronts only the legislation concerning food trucks "in the core".  Too often, people forget that I promote food trucks in the core.  I do not promote however, excessive food trucks, nor too close proximity to true B & M's.

I agree with Lake and some others, that we should look at food truck parks (panzer parks), in and around the core, each having two to four trucks.  This would give variety of foods for core customers and visitors.  The arrangement would also give the food truck panzer drivers experience in the food business so that they could take the plunge into a B & M operation .... "OCCUPYING" a building in the core  .... which is "the" measurement of revitalization, by way of "infill" of the vacant buildings in the core.

The seemingly myopic promoters of total freedom for food trucks in the core, if they have their way, will be the cause of further building vacancies in the core .... will be responsible for further delay in our efforts to "occupy" core buildings .... and a further delay in our efforts to  bring infill and vibrancy into the core.

The near sighted, who wish only to have food truck panzer units invade, should be ashamed of themselves for promoting such a thing.  They are promoting B & M failures, and thus more building vacancies.  Why not promote two "positive" things: 1) the opening of B & M restaurants and 2) initiating incentives and education with the goal of getting more residents, businesses, workers ... anything, into the core that results in "occupying buildings".  This latter objective would bring more "permanent" residents, workers, and visitors, and thus produce conditions which would allow, eventually, for proper increases of food truck panzers into the core.   

As I've said before, either extreme ... total freedom or total control, is not necessary.  Total freedom will kill B & M's, and total control of the panzer units  ;D will stifle competition and make for an excessively boring range of menus in the core.

Why don't we stop accusing everyone of wanting one of these extremes.  I certainly don't want either extreme.     

I'm about to go see Bill Maher at the Florida Theatre.  He is a formidable individual ... as against the political and religious mediocrities in this country, and has to be one of the most intelligent and informed comedians on the planet ....... ranking with the deceased George Carlin.

 
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 06:22:38 PM by ronchamblin »

tufsu1

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #298 on: March 16, 2014, 06:40:54 PM »
http://disneyparks.disney.go.com/blog/2013/03/announcing-disney-springs-at-walt-disney-world-resort/

and icarus says it above....the food trucks at Downtown Disney offer food items that none of the current establishments there do.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 06:44:54 PM by tufsu1 »

icarus

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Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #299 on: March 16, 2014, 06:53:12 PM »
Ron - I appreciate someone who is passionate about their position but I can't help but feel you are way off base on this one.

I have worked in downtown and riverside area since December 1997.  First, the b&m food businesses are for the most part focused on lunch only service.  Its only been in the last few years that we have gotten a few establishments of any draw potential remaining open for dinner.

As for lunch, there are still not that many options for dining in my opinion. Certainly not enough to keep me from leaving the area out of my palette's sheer boredom. The presence of food trucks is not going to keep me from going to a B&M but it might keep me from leaving downtown entirely.  I really can't think my experience is different from any other person working downtown.  I like pho and BG but ask yourself this, how many times in a week can you eat from one restaurant, in a month, in a year.

What the food trucks do for me .. is keep me downtown .. keep me walking on the streets.  If this is true for the experience of others, I see them encouraging more people to stay downtown .. people who need to purchase items on their lunch break who might be looking to other retail outlets downtown.

If you want to boost business for everyone, give consumers a reason to stay in the area or god forbid, come to an area.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2014, 06:56:49 PM by icarus »