Author Topic: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?  (Read 233681 times)

BridgeTroll

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15498
  • The average person thinks he isnt
    • London Bridge Pub
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #270 on: March 14, 2014, 06:44:03 AM »
Ron...

You have often refered to arguments against your position as emotional.  Mine certainly is not... And I am quite sure Lakelanders position is not either.  Anyway...  there was a meeting Wednesday and am anxious to see the revision of the horrendous first draft of the regulations.

http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2014-03-12/story/halting-progress-more-meetings-ahead-bill-regulating-jacksonville-food
Quote
Over about two and a half hours, truck operators and city officials read a 10-page draft ordinance line-by-line, debating the need for the city to set rules about subjects ranging from truck parking to whether food that’s sold could be frozen for later use.

As proof of my "non emotional" stance... I will reserve further comment until I see this or future revisions.  If the parties involved can come to an amicable agreement then all should be happy.  8)
In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

Charles Hunter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5372
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #271 on: March 14, 2014, 06:59:19 AM »
I doubt if anyone wants total freedom regarding food truck quantity, locations, and times.  I doubt if anyone wants a total ban of food trucks.  As for me, I "want" food trucks in the core, whether spaced strategically and individually in certain locations, or in "food truck parks".  However, I realize the danger to the core's progress toward revitalization, if we allow excessive freedom to the food trucks.  And this realization is why I engage the subject.

Rest. zzzzzzzzz

What restrictions on "food truck quantity, locations, and times ... in the core" do you propose?
How many Food Trucks should there be?
More basic - what are boundaries of "the core"?
What locations would be allowed, or prohibited?
Should they be "X" feet from a Brick and Mortar"  How far is "X"?
What times would FT be allowed or prohibited?  Prohibited during lunch hour?
Where would you put a Food Truck Park?

If you only talk in generalities about how much of a threat food trucks pose to downtown (not just the brick and mortar restaurants), and toss in "I want food trucks in the core" without specifics of what is acceptable to you - it comes across as being against them all.

Did you participate in Councilman Brown's meeting this week?

thelakelander

  • The Jaxson
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 35241
    • Modern Cities
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #272 on: March 14, 2014, 08:13:20 AM »
This Jax Daily Record article makes it sound like most complaints about food trucks are coming from downtown B&Ms:

Quote
Food trucks win longer hours, can set up near homes after long meeting

..............

The part about how close the vendors can be to brick-and-mortar restaurants drew more spirited debate, with one person saying the city shouldn’t deal with the competitive nature of the businesses.

That issue is still outstanding and Brown is seeking input heading up to the next meeting March 24, where he said he wants to hear from brick-and-mortar business owners, none of whom attended Wednesday.

Brown said he wanted the Downtown Investment Authority to decide how food trucks are regulated in the urban core. CEO Aundra Wallace told the crowd the authority’s board is working on a redevelopment plan and is looking at best practices for the vendors in the area.

“We have got to have a balancing act,” he said.

As for the city as a whole, there have not been an overwhelming number of complaints to the city, but regulations with city code “is certainly is an area that needs to be cleaned up,” said Mel Cook, city regulatory compliance coordinator. “The city always wants to work with them and we want to encourage these businesses,” Cook said.

full article: http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=542456
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

JaxByDefault

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #273 on: March 14, 2014, 08:41:53 AM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside. Food trucks that later open fixed locations have created over a hundred jobs here in Jacksonville (Corner Taco, Pele's, Blind Fig/Rabbit, etc.) Perhaps DIA would be better off scrapping their "balancing act" approach for a wholistic approach that would keep truck-to-table businesses downtown for the long-haul.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2014, 08:43:44 AM by JaxByDefault »

BridgeTroll

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15498
  • The average person thinks he isnt
    • London Bridge Pub
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #274 on: March 14, 2014, 08:52:53 AM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside. Food trucks that later open fixed locations have created over a hundred jobs here in Jacksonville (Corner Taco, Pele's, Blind Fig/Rabbit, etc.) Perhaps DIA would be better off scrapping their "balancing act" approach for a wholistic approach that would keep truck-to-table businesses downtown for the long-haul.



Truck turned B&M...

Quote
Corner Taco owner Chris Dickerson, who honed his culinary skills at four-star restaurants in several states, started serving up gourmet tacos in 2011 at a Neptune Beach bar, before renovating a classic 1965 Airstream Globetrotter into a food truck featuring what he lovingly refers to as “semi-swanky street food.”
 
Three short years later, the Airstream is parked in the side lot as Dickerson runs his brick and mortar restaurant — taking orders from behind the counter, checking on the crew’s progress in the kitchen, and buzzing around the dining room greeting customers. A line forms at the counter during peak lunch and dinner times, but it appears to move quickly, and the food seems to be coming out fast as well.

http://members.jacksonville.com/entertainment/food-and-dining/2014-03-12/story/restaurant-review-semi-swanky-fare-arrives-five

In a boat at sea one of the men began to bore a hole in the bottom of the boat. On being remonstrating with, he answered, "I am only boring under my own seat." "Yes," said his companions, "but when the sea rushes in we shall all be drowned with you."

tufsu1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11434
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #275 on: March 14, 2014, 09:58:21 AM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside.

Super Food Truck has signed a tentative deal to take over the old Starbucks space in 11E....but they are still trying to get in on a space closer to the Florida Theatre

thekillingwax

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #276 on: March 14, 2014, 02:42:46 PM »
http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/14/news/companies/quiznos-bankruptcy/

DAMN YOU FOOD TRUCKS! DAMMNNNN YOUUUUU! LOOK WHAT YOU'VE DONE!

Scrub Palmetto

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 134
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #277 on: March 14, 2014, 02:58:13 PM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside. Food trucks that later open fixed locations have created over a hundred jobs here in Jacksonville (Corner Taco, Pele's, Blind Fig/Rabbit, etc.) Perhaps DIA would be better off scrapping their "balancing act" approach for a wholistic approach that would keep truck-to-table businesses downtown for the long-haul.

I wonder how perspectives would differ between existing B&Ms downtown and these, if located downtown, given that they were once food trucks themselves. How would they feel about the "threat" of other trucks now that they've joined the ranks of the "threatened" B&M crowd?

ronchamblin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #278 on: March 15, 2014, 01:31:05 AM »
I doubt if anyone wants total freedom regarding food truck quantity, locations, and times.  I doubt if anyone wants a total ban of food trucks.  As for me, I "want" food trucks in the core, whether spaced strategically and individually in certain locations, or in "food truck parks".  However, I realize the danger to the core's progress toward revitalization, if we allow excessive freedom to the food trucks.  And this realization is why I engage the subject.

Rest. zzzzzzzzz

What restrictions on "food truck quantity, locations, and times ... in the core" do you propose?
How many Food Trucks should there be?
More basic - what are boundaries of "the core"?
What locations would be allowed, or prohibited?
Should they be "X" feet from a Brick and Mortar"  How far is "X"?
What times would FT be allowed or prohibited?  Prohibited during lunch hour?
Where would you put a Food Truck Park?

If you only talk in generalities about how much of a threat food trucks pose to downtown (not just the brick and mortar restaurants), and toss in "I want food trucks in the core" without specifics of what is acceptable to you - it comes across as being against them all.

Did you participate in Councilman Brown's meeting this week?


Don't mean to be gone so long.  Been sorta trapped via some workers being out.

Actually, I didn't attend the meeting, as I usually don't do well at them, or around lots of people.  Perhaps I can make the next meeting ... if I have enough workers back to cover me.   

First .... your questions as to what are the boundaries of the core?  Well ...for the time being, and for this issue, how about from the river, north to Union, and east-to-west from Liberty to Jefferson or even, Davis Street?  I refer to this area because this seems to be the "old" area of the core, where most vacant buildings are located.  Of course there are vacant buildings further out, but I suspect that most are concerned, for now, about the vacant buildings "and vacant lots/parking lots" in this central area.

How many food trucks should there be?  That would depend on the decisions as to how close they are allowed to the existing B & M restaurants.  Theoretically, if the distance (X) were set at 500 feet, this could, during the period from 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m., limit the FT's to perhaps two to three "in the old core area outlined above".  This should allow sufficient protection for the invested B & M's in the core area. 

Anyone not understanding why protection is needed does not understand some critical points about overall objectives concerning the core.  There is more to it than "competition".  Nobody is "afraid" of the competition from the FT's.  It is simply that allowing free reign to food trucks in the old core area is not aligned with the goal of furthering genuine and sustained vibrancy in the core.  Why and how can this be, the myopic will ask... saying  ....."But FT's fill customer demand ....  let the customers decide." 

Are we trying to fill core buildings?  Or are we trying to empty them?  Are we trying to achieve fundamental goals as related to basic essences of sustained vibrancy -- which "is" building occupancy -- or are we going to allow, as happens too often, "fleeting profits to a very few" to overwhelm decisions for the good of the core community at large -- specifically, the long-term journey to genuine vibrancy and building occupancy in the core?

You ask .. What locations are to be allowed, or prohibited.  Of course, this will be determined by the outcome as to the question of how close the FT's will be allowed to set up as related to the B & M's.

The question you ask about the potential locations of the food parks is interesting, as it prompts me to think seriously that this concept might be helpful to the whole problem.  Why not, in addition to the two or three FT's allowed in the core via the 500 foot distance, have, on the outskirts, one or two food truck parks, each having three or four trucks operating within the park?  As to location?  Surely there is a vacant lot somewhere that would be appropriate. 

This arrangement would allow the food truck operators to get their feet wet in the restaurant business "so as to prepare themselves for making a real investment in the core, which is to open a brick and mortar location in the core -- to occupy a vacant building or space."

After all, "the" primary goal is to somehow add building occupancy in the core.  I am confident that  carelessly generating legislation which allows food trucks too high numbers, too close to brick and mortars, and at competing hours, will not only destroy motivation for new brick and mortar restaurants to open and occupy empty buildings in the core, but will tend to empty those currently occupied.

Having said all the above, I wish to enter an unknown factor, which might, if it is of sufficient value, counter my argument above.  The factor relates to the question.... Will the food trucks, if allowed in greater quantity than most are proposing, and allowed much closer to existing brick and mortars ......  bring into the core, "customers" who would not normally visit the core?  If FT's in fact "do" bring sufficient new customers into the core, then my argument is less valid, as the net result will allow the brick and mortar restaurants to survive as a consequence of their being enough customers for all restaurant operations, both B & M, and the FT's.  And this possible balanced scenario will not be a loss of building occupancy in the core.

But ... will the food trucks bring in sufficient customers from outlying areas, so that "all" proposed restaurants can survive?     

Outside of the hours of say... 6:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. the restrictions to food truck locations could be much less, as most of the brick and mortar operations will have closed.  Why do they close up?  To survive perhaps.  I'm sure that some of these restaurants have experimented with opening into the evening, and discovered that, for now, to do so is a significant loss.  I suspect that they are ready, when and if more residents and visitors are in the core as potential customers, they will experiment again with late hours.

Special Events?  Surely, all will want to give free reign to food trucks during special events.  It makes sense.  The brick and mortars simply cannot handle the demand.  And this condition will not provide continual pressure to empty more buildings in the core -- as would be the case if careless legislation does not properly regulate the food trucks.   

Summary ... I do like the idea of limited individual food trucks in the core, and encourage perhaps one or two food truck parks (three to five trucks each) in an outlying area .. perhaps in an empty lot.
       


   
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 02:43:57 AM by ronchamblin »

ronchamblin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #279 on: March 15, 2014, 01:36:19 AM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside. Food trucks that later open fixed locations have created over a hundred jobs here in Jacksonville (Corner Taco, Pele's, Blind Fig/Rabbit, etc.) Perhaps DIA would be better off scrapping their "balancing act" approach for a wholistic approach that would keep truck-to-table businesses downtown for the long-haul.

I wonder how perspectives would differ between existing B&Ms downtown and these, if located downtown, given that they were once food trucks themselves. How would they feel about the "threat" of other trucks now that they've joined the ranks of the "threatened" B&M crowd?

Bingo.  I have some allies in my thinking. Whoever you are .... thank you both  :) Perhaps I'm not a practicing idiot after all.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 02:44:33 AM by ronchamblin »

fieldafm

  • Editor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4686
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #280 on: March 15, 2014, 08:30:47 AM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside. Food trucks that later open fixed locations have created over a hundred jobs here in Jacksonville (Corner Taco, Pele's, Blind Fig/Rabbit, etc.) Perhaps DIA would be better off scrapping their "balancing act" approach for a wholistic approach that would keep truck-to-table businesses downtown for the long-haul.

I wonder how perspectives would differ between existing B&Ms downtown and these, if located downtown, given that they were once food trucks themselves. How would they feel about the "threat" of other trucks now that they've joined the ranks of the "threatened" B&M crowd?

I can answer that. Every one of the food truck owners who either already had a B&M before adding a food truck, or had a food truck and 'graduated, if you will' to a food truck.. have all come out in support of food trucks at any public meetings in the fight to bring food trucks to Jax Beach or this latest 'effort' by Reggie Brown. Even B&M's that don't have food trucks have come out in support.

Downtown's largest landlord of restaurants (Jacksonville Landing), has also supported food trucks downtown.


ronchamblin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1080
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #281 on: March 15, 2014, 09:01:23 AM »
DIA's primary concern shouldn't be restricting food trucks downtown, it should be studying why when they go brick-and-mortar, they all open in Riverside. Food trucks that later open fixed locations have created over a hundred jobs here in Jacksonville (Corner Taco, Pele's, Blind Fig/Rabbit, etc.) Perhaps DIA would be better off scrapping their "balancing act" approach for a wholistic approach that would keep truck-to-table businesses downtown for the long-haul.

I wonder how perspectives would differ between existing B&Ms downtown and these, if located downtown, given that they were once food trucks themselves. How would they feel about the "threat" of other trucks now that they've joined the ranks of the "threatened" B&M crowd?

(from ronchamblin)   Bingo.  I have some allies in my thinking. Whoever you are .... thank you both  :) Perhaps I'm not a practicing idiot after all.


I can answer that. Every one of the food truck owners who either already had a B&M before adding a food truck, or had a food truck and 'graduated, if you will' to a food truck.. have all come out in support of food trucks at any public meetings in the fight to bring food trucks to Jax Beach or this latest 'effort' by Reggie Brown. Even B&M's that don't have food trucks have come out in support.

Downtown's largest landlord of restaurants (Jacksonville Landing), has also supported food trucks downtown.


Mr. fieldafm ... forgive me please, but it sounds like claims having rather questionable support from reality ....... attempts to convince, by way of offering rhetoric having a very weak base.  Your attempts to avoid the essence of the issue is showing.  ;)



« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 09:03:19 AM by ronchamblin »

Charles Hunter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5372
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #282 on: March 15, 2014, 09:22:57 AM »
I guess a basic question is - what does the current law allow? Where, downtown, can food trucks set up now?
 I was under the impression R. Brown's original bill was to restrict FT locations, not allow them to go someplace they can't go now.

edjax

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1202
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #283 on: March 15, 2014, 10:43:42 AM »
I see where Quiznoes has filed for bankruptcy.  I see our food trucks are casting a wide net of heartache. 

JaxByDefault

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 514
Re: Food Trucks To Be Legislated Out of Existence?
« Reply #284 on: March 15, 2014, 06:13:41 PM »
I'm not sure we're on the same page, ronchamblin. I don't think restricting food trucks in the urban core is a good idea at all. Letting food trucks be food trucks is what helped them be profitable, popular, and led to new brick-and-mortar locations. Density of options is a good thing. If brick-and-mortar were so unprofitable compared to food trucks, then so many food truck businesses would not later open brick and mortar locations.

My point is that DIA should be more invested in helping food trucks, letting food trucks be profitable, and then encouraging/helping food trucks that want to open brick-and-mortar locations stay downtown. Protectionist legislation for existing restaurants is not a beneficial job creator in the long run.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2014, 06:15:34 PM by JaxByDefault »