What Would You Like Downtown Jacksonville to Become?

[I-10east]

I don't like any ideas of forcing congested traffic through a bottle neck 'forcing' people to enjoy downtown. People are gonna go where they want to anyway. So I don't buy those 'Expressway mass exodus out of the ghost town core' argument. Hell, you can make State and Union into one lane streets, and all you'll do is create a traffic nightmare that will frustrate people, and the businesses bottomlines will get no more in the black.   

[thelakelander]

^Lakeland converted a one-way street pair into two-way streets in the early 2000s.  They actually took over control of the streets from FDOT.  In their case, a bypass was constructed on the north end of downtown to remove through traffic from downtown.  As a response, business conditions have improved in downtown. No new development has happened along the new bypass highway.

[fieldafm]

I don't like any ideas of forcing congested traffic through a bottle neck 'forcing' people to enjoy downtown. People are gonna go where they want to anyway. So I don't buy those 'Expressway mass exodus out of the ghost town core' argument. Hell, you can make State and Union into one lane streets, and all you'll do is create a traffic nightmare that will frustrate people, and the businesses bottomlines will get no more in the black.

A simple Google search will reveal countless examples that say otherwise.

http://www.itdp.org/library/publications/the-life-and-death-of-urban-highways/

Or you can just go back two weeks to a pretty compelling example discussed on MetroJax

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,19891.0.html


A CRA should be developed without a 'that won't work in Jacksonville' attitude and perhaps more use of the magical urban textbook called 'the internet'.

[jcjohnpaint]

Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much.  I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan.  Focus on a small area in and around Laura St. 

[Ocklawaha]

I first got involved with rail in OKC back in around 1999.  I built the first website for a grass-roots group of people who were trying to raise awareness to bring rail back to OKC after the 'downtown circulator' in the original MAPS project got switched to rubber wheeled replica trollies.

I don't remember without looking it up, what year we were all hauled into downtown OKC from various towns and cities all around the core. We were part of a 'brainstorming' bus tour as part of the MAPS project. Had a great lunch at Cattlemen's, in the stockyards and got what was probably the first 'historical tour' of automobile alley. Our bus was full as were the others and I know many other officials from Edmond, Guthrie, Cashion, Crescent, Kingfisher, Okarchee etc. had a great time. I remember everyone laughing when I suggested they take out the Postal Sectional Center south of I-40 downtown and create a green way park from downtown to the OKC Union Station. Most of my life as a city councilman seems to revolve around the May 3 Tornadoes, and the rescue efforts or the mandatory training we all went through with FEMA and the NWS school when it was all over.

For the record they got that at least part right when the freeway was removed and the Postal Center was razed, but then the idiots at ODOT (I presume) put the freeway along the railroad forever killing much hope of ever using Union Station again for anything but a two track flag stop.... For the Jaxson's, OKC had two late era stations that served the railroads up until Amtrak. Union Station served the Rock Island, Frisco and Katy, while the Santa Fe Station served the Santa Fe.

Jacksonville has so much already in place;
Jax has A beautiful downtown river - OKC had to virtually create one
Jax has A stunning riverwalk - OKC had to create one (canal walk) 
Jax has A fixed route mass transit EL downtown - OKC will have to build their own
Jax has a 'turn-key transportation center' location - OKC will have to create one
Yet with all of these advantages, if it were a race, there is no contest as to which city is on the move and which is stalled. OKC wins that contest by miles.

[Debbie Thompson]

Posted the same idea on the other thread about making State and Union two ways, then saw it here. Great minds...  And we already HAVE a bypass on the north end of downtown.  Martin Luther King Parkway...formerly 20th Street Expressway.  We don't even have to build one. 

[I-10east]

^Lakeland converted a one-way street pair into two-way streets in the early 2000s.  They actually took over control of the streets from FDOT.  In their case, a bypass was constructed on the north end of downtown to remove through traffic from downtown.  As a response, business conditions have improved in downtown. No new development has happened along the new bypass highway.

Sounds like it worked out good for Lakeland. I'm not familiar with DT Lakeland, but I believe that every city is unique, and that should be taken into account. I used that term 'expressway' kinda mockingly; Personally, I don't think they (State & Union) are expressways, not with traffic lights every block. People always think that the timed green lights for flowing traffic is a bad thing; That's what gets the traffic out of the way, in fact actually making it safer for pedestrians; Those same 'speedy cars' are often backed up several blocks on red lights, which allows pedestrians safely to cross. State and Union are on the fringes of DT, which is a blue collar strip, filled with cheap fast food restaurants etc. Most of that corridor area is filled up anyway. I doubt if those streets ever become anything like Laura, nor do I think they should.

[I-10east]

A simple Google search will reveal countless examples that say otherwise.

http://www.itdp.org/library/publications/the-life-and-death-of-urban-highways/

Or you can just go back two weeks to a pretty compelling example discussed on MetroJax

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,19891.0.html

A CRA should be developed without a 'that won't work in Jacksonville' attitude and perhaps more use of the magical urban textbook called 'the internet'.

I don't consider State and Union. 'urban highways' so the first link is offbase IMO; Maybe if they changed that corridor to all flashing yellow lights, then I would agree. The second link is even more offbase, a roundabout, seriously? LOL. Maybe a 'that won't work in Jax' mentality could be hindering this city in various other situations, but an 'one size fits all' way of thinking could be just as detrimental.

One think that many urbanists have been beating me over the head is the surface parking within the core argument; I used to be a lil' stubborn with that, but now I will agree anyone who mentions that to the utmost! IMO we should worry about the inner core areas, and not the very few efficient one way streets this city has DT, expressway ramps, and that sort of thing. I think that the two way Laura Street was a success because it's a pedestrian friendly two lane street that doesn't lead directly to a major highway; I don't think that Main St would have that same effect, and State & Union two ways would be a complete disaster IMO. 

[simms3]

Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much.  I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan.  Focus on a small area in and around Laura St. 

I agree with this quote; while Jax is a "big city" at the center of a metro of 1.4 million people, the core functions more like a small town than a big city.  Once you reach the scale of SF, Chicago, DC, Philadelphia, let alone Manhattan, one ways work really effectively for vehicular and bike traffic and the pedestrians are still there en masse.  However, at Jacksonville's level where there aren't yet any pedestrians to speak of, traffic calming measures will have more of an effect. We simply don't have the wide busy sidewalks or the pedestrian culture to point to otherwise.

Jax is much more on the level of Greenville, Lakeland, Nashville, Memphis, Raleigh, Salt Lake City, Buffalo, and others and I believe that in each of these cities "downscaling" auto infrastructure and traffic calming measures have proven effective at spurring better integrated development and pedestrian activity.

[I-10east]

Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much.  I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan.  Focus on a small area in and around Laura St. 

Exactly, I totally agree. Maybe you don't agree with me on the whole State & Union thing, but the inner core is exactly what we should be concentrating on.

[fieldafm]

The second link is even more offbase, a roundabout, seriously? LOL.

So, skipped right over the example of Lancaster, CA?

If you actually read the discussion instead of just looking at the thread title and spouting off, it was more to do with stimulating economic activity from road diets.. not roundabouts.


See:

"downscaling" auto infrastructure and traffic calming measures have proven effective at spurring better integrated development and pedestrian activity.

Ferris wheels and that kind of nonsense won't do much if there isn't a 'there' there.. so to speak.  Five Points or San Marco Square aren't successful b/c they each have a giant aquarium.  They are successful because there is a variety of complementary uses within a pedestrian friendly setting. 

[thelakelander]

Probably some of the best things that could be downtown would not cost so much.  I think the city needs to stop treating the downtown like Manhattan.  Focus on a small area in and around Laura St. 

Exactly, I totally agree. Maybe you don't agree with me on the whole State & Union thing, but the inner core is exactly what we should be concentrating on.

I don't think there's an effort to down size State & Union.  That corridor has continued to be overlooked at this point.

However, your point about focusing initially on a small compact area has merit.  What we call downtown is spread out over two miles.  Many of the "high profile" sites people want to see something happen with are so isolated from everything else, we could have billions of investment and still not end up with a vibrant walkable setting by 2025. When you think about it, we have had billions in investment over the last 30 years.  Yet we're still wondering how to revitalize downtown today.

[Intuition Ale Works]

The number one issue IMO is that Downtown Jacksonville is not a viable real estate market.

Property is too expensive for what you get and the cost of getting that overpriced property up to code is a deal killer.

The city needs to come up with a way to give property owners or tenants a grace period to address code issues that are not ADA or life safety related.

Could the city help finance the cost of getting these old buildings up to code?

It is cheaper to tear down must of the buildings downtown and build new. That is a problem.

[fieldafm]

and the cost of getting that overpriced property up to code is a deal killer.

Completely agree.

[Noone]

^^+2 And that is why COJ needs to step it up and make sure the area for the USS Adams is ready to go.