Who was Nathan Bedford Forrest?

[Demosthenes]

To your point (I think) the whole discussion is pretty silly. I think for me the issue is, there are so many people that deserve to be memorialized that are local, or even national heros. In 50 years, I would prefer the random kid get curious about who Scott Speicher was, or maybe who John Delaney, or who Hans Tanzler were. Each of these people have blemishes, and maybe History will decided each was a bad person for one reason or another, but they are all people who can be held up as pillars of the Jax community today.

NBF was a man of his times. He was a proud southerner, a noteworthy tactician, and he probably acted in a manner he though befitted a man of his times. Im not saying he needs to be struck from the history books, or even necessarily looked down upon historically, but he has significant baggage, and there is simply no good reason why a highschool on the westside of a city in Florida should bare his name.

IMO - When it comes to standing by our history, be it a Nazi submarine, the lovely Jean Harlow and her affair with Al Capone at the Casa Marina Hotel, the Barkers, a Creature From The Black Lagoon or General Forrest, standing up is always a stronger position then bowing to pressure to forget it.

Noone is suggesting that we forget our history.  History is not static.  It is a constantly unfolding story.  Changing the school's name would simply be the next chapter in the history of NBF.  Personally, I hope we never forget the story of people like NBF and how we as a society have become more enlightened and constantly strive to move beyond intolerance, oppression and racism. Changing the name of the school, and the reasons for making the change, would be something remembered by generations to come.  So rest assured that history would not be forgotten.

[KenFSU]

He has significant baggage, and there is simply no good reason why a highschool on the westside of a city in Florida should bare his name.

Well said, completely agree.

[I-10east]

I didnt stick up for Boston. I said that Yawkey being a racist retarded the RedSox ability to compete in baseball. Furthermore, while I do love that city, they have a pretty horrendous reputation as a racist city, including being where bussing started, and furthermore, I love Jax. I dont love some of the backwards bullshit, like trying to justify the continued name of a predominantly black school after the first grand-wizard of the KKK through manipulation of history, but Jax is a pretty awesome city in most ways. I dare you to try to find me a city without its warts.

My bad Demo. I thought that you were an apologist first and obviously you're not, sorry that I misunderstood you. You sound reasonable. I thought that my examples of controversial names was comparable though; Street names have been changed for similar reasons.

This Forrest name change attempt is part of a bigger picture that no one is talking about. If the name change fails to pass, this issue will most likely go away; If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

[KenFSU]

If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

I might be in the minority (or maybe not?), but I wouldn't mind seeing Confederate Park receive a new name. I get the history, but it still strikes me as needlessly offensive to Jacksonville's quarter-million black residents.

[thelakelander]

^Of course it's offensive.  It was also meant to be offensive in 1959.  It's kind of crazy that people want to preserve such an offense as preserving our history.

This Forrest name change attempt is part of a bigger picture that no one is talking about. If the name change fails to pass, this issue will most likely go away; If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

My outlook is kind of different.  This debate has gone on for decades.  Way before the term PC popped up on the screen. As our local population becomes more diverse, the name will eventually change. It's really only a matter of time.

[Demosthenes]

I disagree with the slippery slope argument here. Nobody is calling for Kirby Smith, who was from the region, or even Lee, or JEB Stuart, which are both for more national figures to be renamed. I dont think this is about the confederacy. I think this is about NBF. Period.

As far as Confederate Park, I actually am ok with the name. It was named that due to an event, and not to fly in the face of integration. I dont think "confederate" is offensive, and it really is part of our history. The discussion about what the confederacy stood for is a complicated and lengthy discussion that involves economics, immigration, social structure, and era politics that most people simply dont understand in a meaningful way.

I didnt stick up for Boston. I said that Yawkey being a racist retarded the RedSox ability to compete in baseball. Furthermore, while I do love that city, they have a pretty horrendous reputation as a racist city, including being where bussing started, and furthermore, I love Jax. I dont love some of the backwards bullshit, like trying to justify the continued name of a predominantly black school after the first grand-wizard of the KKK through manipulation of history, but Jax is a pretty awesome city in most ways. I dare you to try to find me a city without its warts.

My bad Demo. I thought that you were an apologist first and obviously you're not, sorry that I misunderstood you. You sound reasonable. I thought that my examples of controversial names was comparable though; Street names have been changed for similar reasons.

This Forrest name change attempt is part of a bigger picture that no one is talking about. If the name change fails to pass, this issue will most likely go away; If it passes, continued name change requests for other schools (maybe even parks and streets too) with Confederate themes will be presented for PC reasons.

[thelakelander]

Yeah, given that the name is the result of a Confederate veteran's reunion that took place in 1914, it makes sense.  However, for those wanting to keep the NBF name for the sake of history, what about Dignan?

[Demosthenes]

It was changed a decade or less after the original name. I personally would be ok with Dignan, but its been Confederate for 100 years.

Another one would be Klutho, which was original Springfield park. Im ok with Klutho Park.

[KenFSU]

I dont think "confederate" is offensive, and it really is part of our history. The discussion about what the confederacy stood for is a complicated and lengthy discussion that involves economics, immigration, social structure, and era politics that most people simply dont understand in a meaningful way.

You could probably say the same thing about the Third Reich though, and I doubt you'll find "Nazi Park" in many progressive German cities. I agree that all of the above is true, and that the roots of the Civil War extended far beyond the mere issue of slavery into the fundamental differences between north and south, but to me, the common sense test says:

1) "What self-respecting black person would be excited to spend the day in Confederate Park?"
2) "What message does a park of this name project about our city to out-of-town visitors?"

If the choice is between reflecting history or historic events, or creating an inclusive, progressive school, park, etc. that the entire community feels comfortable enjoying, you've almost got to go with the ladder.

But then again, that's just me.

I'm one of those guys who gets angry every time we celebrate Columbus Day

[kbhanson3]

To your point (I think) the whole discussion is pretty silly. I think for me the issue is, there are so many people that deserve to be memorialized that are local, or even national heros. In 50 years, I would prefer the random kid get curious about who Scott Speicher was, or maybe who John Delaney, or who Hans Tanzler were. Each of these people have blemishes, and maybe History will decided each was a bad person for one reason or another, but they are all people who can be held up as pillars of the Jax community today.

NBF was a man of his times. He was a proud southerner, a noteworthy tactician, and he probably acted in a manner he though befitted a man of his times. Im not saying he needs to be struck from the history books, or even necessarily looked down upon historically, but he has significant baggage, and there is simply no good reason why a highschool on the westside of a city in Florida should bare his name.

IMO - When it comes to standing by our history, be it a Nazi submarine, the lovely Jean Harlow and her affair with Al Capone at the Casa Marina Hotel, the Barkers, a Creature From The Black Lagoon or General Forrest, standing up is always a stronger position then bowing to pressure to forget it.

Noone is suggesting that we forget our history.  History is not static.  It is a constantly unfolding story.  Changing the school's name would simply be the next chapter in the history of NBF.  Personally, I hope we never forget the story of people like NBF and how we as a society have become more enlightened and constantly strive to move beyond intolerance, oppression and racism. Changing the name of the school, and the reasons for making the change, would be something remembered by generations to come.  So rest assured that history would not be forgotten.

Exactly!  Well said.  One can make arguments until blue in the face about all the justifications for not changing the name, but at the end of the day the name is divisive.  Change it.  Move on.

[Sgarey123]

Divisive for who? The only reason NBF's name is under question is because someone allowed it to be marketed that way. This is the result of a marketing/political campaign that is not helping children or people.

Changing the name is a big deal. It is a gateway to other cultural aspects of Jacksonville being mowed down.  Our names and places (however named) are what make us special.  Changing the name out of ignorance due to someone else's (non-native) political agenda is not appropriate.  It sends the wrong message to the children too. It says to them... "Disrespect your history, your elders, and your culture."  Black, white, red, or yellow NBF was a war hero fighting for his home and constitution.  He is part of all our culture and history. He was a highly thought of person who should continue to be recognized. 

The petitions being signed are not local and not started by locals. They hold no merit in this case other than the fact that if you signed that petition you expose yourself to being one of the uninformed and gullible.

Finally, I find it amazing that this issue was vetted such a short time ago (once and for all) and that a new superintendent can come in and misdirect the entire public by putting this emotional, disrespectful, ignorant request back on the table as possible.  Our school district is awful.  This was just in the paper the other day: 

http://members.jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-10-30/story/circuit-judge-criticizes-duval-school-system-violence

The basic safety of our children is at stake these days and we are all spun up trying to erase history instead of teaching it to our children. I beg you to read this whole thread closely because it is so obvious that changing this schools name is more about deconstructing our historical identity for political gain than anything else.

I for one would like to know where I can sign a petition asking for the name to remain.

[kbhanson3]

Divisive for who? The only reason NBF's name is under question is because someone allowed it to be marketed that way. This is the result of a marketing/political campaign that is not helping children or people.

It seems that many African Americans and others in our community find it to be offensive.  That by definition makes it divisive.  Beyond that, I am disappointed and embarrassed that Jacksonville is still debating issues that clearly have racist origins.  One can cloak arguments with heritage and history, but underneath it all is racism.  This debate perpetuates the Jacksonville's reputation of a backwards cow town to many outsiders.  Debates like this make it hard to dispute that.

Changing the name is a big deal. It is a gateway to other cultural aspects of Jacksonville being mowed down.  Our names and places (however named) are what make us special.  Changing the name out of ignorance due to someone else's (non-native) political agenda is not appropriate.  It sends the wrong message to the children too. It says to them... "Disrespect your history, your elders, and your culture."  Black, white, red, or yellow NBF was a war hero fighting for his home and constitution.  He is part of all our culture and history. He was a highly thought of person who should continue to be recognized. 

I am a native of Jacksonville.  My ancestors fought for the Confederacy (a North Carolina regiment).  I am proud of my heritage, but I am not blind to the blemishes in that heritage. Our names and places do not make us special.  What we do in our lives day in and day out is what makes (or does not make) us special.  Changing the name because of the racist practices of NBF (even if they were typical of his era) including being the first Grand Dragon of the KKK is not sending the wrong message to children.  It says to them that some past practices in history are not okay.  We need to acknowledge them for what they were, teach children why they're not okay, move beyond them but never forget them.  Changing the name would be part of the lesson on racism that we all need to teach children.

The basic safety of our children is at stake these days and we are all spun up trying to erase history instead of teaching it to our children.

My children attend public schools.  Just this Friday, my wife and I had a meeting with my son's teachers, a guidance counselor and an asst. principal in part about a safety concern.  I am much more concerned about student safety than this name debate, but I'm pretty confident we have the capacity to walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Sgarey123]

I have not seen one argument/point for the renaming of Forrest high school that has carried any substance.

It seems that many African Americans and others in our community find it to be offensive.  That by definition makes it divisive.  Beyond that, I am disappointed and embarrassed that Jacksonville is still debating issues that clearly have racist origins.  One can cloak arguments with heritage and history, but underneath it all is racism.  This debate perpetuates the Jacksonville's reputation of a backwards cow town to many outsiders.  Debates like this make it hard to dispute that.

Racist? The only people making all this about race are those who find it offensive.  They are creating the division. History does not change. They were simply taught to believe the wrong things. Their offense and ignorance do not trump blood in the soil, our historical identity, or the facts of the matter. Even if they take the name away it will not change history.

Like it or not, life during the Civil war was more complicated than the Hollywood history the offended would choose to believe.  I would submit that unless the activist calling for this name change also endorsed changing the name to another Confederate general that then they are the haters and dividers.

I do not really believe that the informed or truly native Black Americans find this offensive. If they did they would not seek out the neighborhoods assigned to schools named after confederates to live.  They know where they live and know it is also part of their culture too.
 
Stephen Dare often fights to stop erasing history. This is no different than tearing down a building. It is erasing the wishes of 2 generations of people who wanted to honor this man's memory based on his deeds.  Just because many from those generations are gone does not make it acceptable to change the name of the school.

If you open this can of worms then everything named to honor a person becomes susceptible to attack and change.  We cannot dishonor our forefathers  and rename monuments for a mob mentality.  Build another school somewhere and name it what you want.

Our names and places do not make us special.

I do not go to China to eat at Pizza Hut. Do you understand?  The names of things give us identity. We still have things named after the original American Indian names around here. Don't you see how cool that is? How interesting? This schools name fits the design of schools named in the area. It is fairly unique.

The rest of the South was Dixie, but Jax was always a hotbed of Yankee sympathy, money and complicity.

The Yankees occupied Jacksonville during the war and I am sure that influenced the area but Jacksonville is/was definitely Dixie.

Have you noticed how many schools in Jacksonville are named after Confederate heros? It was designed by our forefathers to make us pay attention to the past and to see the sacrifice these admirable men made.

Jacksonville was and is the cornerstone of the South.  A large metropolis that is nothing like southern Florida and nothing like Atlanta. We still have traditions. We still have an identity. It is also military town so we have a great number of transplants from around the country. This mix makes us special. We are the best of the South. We are the best of the old mixed in with the new.  The foundation of Jacksonville is still connected to what we are building on today. It is important that we honor that and teach its merit.

I hope these words find their way to someone who matters in this decision.  Fix our school system and stop wasting time with debating history.  Teach the people at the school why the guy is hero...stop this nonsense.

[thelakelander]

I have not seen one argument/point for the renaming of Forrest high school that has carried any substance.

It seems that many African Americans and others in our community find it to be offensive.  That by definition makes it divisive.  Beyond that, I am disappointed and embarrassed that Jacksonville is still debating issues that clearly have racist origins.  One can cloak arguments with heritage and history, but underneath it all is racism.  This debate perpetuates the Jacksonville's reputation of a backwards cow town to many outsiders.  Debates like this make it hard to dispute that.

Racist? The only people making all this about race are those who find it offensive.  They are creating the division. History does not change. They were simply taught to believe the wrong things. Their offense and ignorance do not trump blood in the soil, our historical identity, or the facts of the matter. Even if they take the name away it will not change history.

I agree that history does not change.  However, I don't believe anyone is trying to change history.  There's just another movement to change the name of a building in Jacksonville.  Even if the school is named after General Sherman, it doesn't change the history of Fort Pillow and everything else Forrest was involved with far away from the First Coast. The only reason the local school got the name it has was because of a racist response against the Civil Rights movement in 1959.  This actually has nothing to do with Jacksonville's Civil War history.

Like it or not, life during the Civil war was more complicated than the Hollywood history the offended would choose to believe.  I would submit that unless the activist calling for this name change also endorsed changing the name to another Confederate general that then they are the haters and dividers.

The Civil War isn't the debate here. That's just a red herring.

I do not really believe that the informed or truly native Black Americans find this offensive. If they did they would not seek out the neighborhoods assigned to schools named after confederates to live.  They know where they live and know it is also part of their culture too.

I'm black and I find it offensive but let me explain.  I don't find the Civil War offensive. I find the reason behind us naming the school after Forrest offensive.  I consider myself to be informed. I also choose not to honor those who did the offense because of their desire to keep Jim Crow laws in place, so because of that, I'm very fine with seeing the name changed.
 

If you open this can of worms then everything named to honor a person becomes susceptible to attack and change.  We cannot dishonor our forefathers  and rename monuments for a mob mentality.  Build another school somewhere and name it what you want.

If you really understand local history, you'll see this is nothing new.  For example, half the streets you drive on have been renamed over the last century. We also have had several schools and buildings named after various local individuals that have been closed and demolished. Life goes on. Regardless of what happens with this school in Jax, Forrest will still have his place in history books and statue in the place he actually lived in.

The rest of the South was Dixie, but Jax was always a hotbed of Yankee sympathy, money and complicity.

The Yankees occupied Jacksonville during the war and I am sure that influenced the area but Jacksonville is/was definitely Dixie.

Have you noticed how many schools in Jacksonville are named after Confederate heros? It was designed by our forefathers to make us pay attention to the past and to see the sacrifice these admirable men made.

Jacksonville was and is the cornerstone of the South.  A large metropolis that is nothing like southern Florida and nothing like Atlanta. We still have traditions. We still have an identity. It is also military town so we have a great number of transplants from around the country. This mix makes us special. We are the best of the South. We are the best of the old mixed in with the new.  The foundation of Jacksonville is still connected to what we are building on today. It is important that we honor that and teach its merit.

We can spin this quote into a completely different thread but I don't believe it's accurate to claim Jax in either direction.  Jax has always been a multifaceted community. Heck for most of the first century, Jax was a majority black city and a quite progressive one at that.  I think it's a major stretch to loop the majority of that population in as Confederate sympathizers. Many of our most educated blacks during the turn of the century left during the Great Migration because of new Jim Crow laws intended to degrade them as human beings.  Unfortunately, that "across the tracks" history is largely unknown by most today. Nevertheless, it is quite awe inspiring when you start digging into it.

Anyway, all of this is pretty mute when it comes to the renaming of Forrest High School because the debate isn't about Civil War history. A major reason is the exact reason the school was named after Forrest in 1959. That wasn't to honor the guy that had nothing to do with Jax. It was a show of disrespect for those local people who were fighting for equal rights.  IMO, there's no honor in preserving that.

I hope these words find their way to someone who matters in this decision.  Fix our school system and stop wasting time with debating history.  Teach the people at the school why the guy is hero...stop this nonsense.

I've mentioned it before but the name will eventually change as Jax continues to diversify and move into the 21st century. However, I do agree that we should be fixing our school system as well. Yet, this doesn't stand in the way of that happening.

[Sgarey123]

I agree that history does not change.  However, I don't believe anyone is trying to change history.  There's just another movement to change the name of a building in Jacksonville.  Even if the school is named after General Sherman, it doesn't change the history of Fort Pillow and everything else Forrest was involved with far away from the First Coast. The only reason the local school got the name it has was because of a racist response against the Civil Rights movement in 1959.  This actually has nothing to do with Jacksonville's Civil War history.

Just another? I do not recall another monument or public building having the name changed. Change does happen but it is normally when something is torn down. 

Sherman was your real demon. Forrest was a tinker bell compared to him.

There is no proof of an association of the naming of schools with the Civil Rights Movement.  Jacksonville already had schools named after Confederate Generals. It would be far easier to say that the names were chosen to follow  the trend started in the late 20's. You have no grounds to re-name this school other than a disputed association with a long vanquished (idiotic) organization.  If the activist are really only concerned with this association then by all means choose another Confederate hero to name the school...at least then they can keep their Mascot. That would show that this is not just a racial attack on southern heritage.

Another idea...name it after a Floridian Black Confederate even....There were 3 in St. Augustine! 

I'm black and I find it offensive but let me explain.  I don't find the Civil War offensive. I find the reason behind us naming the school after Forrest offensive.  I consider myself to be informed. I also choose not to honor those who did the offense because of their desire to keep Jim Crow laws in place, so because of that, I'm very fine with seeing the name changed.

Again there is no base for your contention.   It would seem you have completely avoided the facts that have been quoted, described and listed over and over by the historian in previous posts. You speak and are making decisions based on ignorance or hate. You pick.

If you really understand local history, you'll see this is nothing new.  For example, half the streets you drive on have been renamed over the last century. We also have had several schools and buildings named after various local individuals that have been closed and demolished. Life goes on. Regardless of what happens with this school in Jax, Forrest will still have his place in history books and statue in the place he actually lived in.

I do not like streets being renamed...ever. However they change a lot so it happens. Schools and buildings sometimes get knocked down or sold but that is not the case here. What we have here is looking like Racial imperialism.  I hope I am wrong.

I've mentioned it before but the name will eventually change as Jax continues to diversify and move into the 21st century. However, I do agree that we should be fixing our school system as well. Yet, this doesn't stand in the way of that happening.

It does stand in the way. It is creating less confidence in the system. It is distracting everyone from the core problem. It is even making the core problem worse.

I have no faith that the community council will have adequate representation or the intelligence to do the right thing or even the smart thing.  However I hope that my efforts here will fall on a few ears out there. This whole thing is a circus and is bad for Jacksonville.