Author Topic: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park  (Read 16866 times)

cline

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2013, 08:46:58 AM »
One thing I love is the stop if pedestrians are in crosswalk signs.  Those appear to be having a great impact in slowing auto traffic down and making drivers look for pedestrians. We need more of those across the urban core if you ask me.

I suggested these for the Shoppes of Avondale.  The 'Parking Overlords' however think that interferes with residential parking passes. 

I have suggested those for the Shoppes as well.  They have been installed on Riverside Ave at St. Vincents but they are really needed at the Shoppes.

dougskiles

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2013, 11:26:32 AM »
We (SMPS) have fielded a few complaints about the look of the ped signs (too bright, ugly, etc.)

But - they work.  90% of the time when I am standing on the side waiting to cross, an approaching car will stop.  Before the project, it was more like 1% of the time.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 12:00:34 PM by dougskiles »

cline

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2013, 11:40:41 AM »
We (SMPS) has fielded a few complaints about the look of the ped signs (too bright, ugly, etc.)

But - they work.  90% of the time when I am standing on the side waiting to cross, an approaching car will stop.  Before the project, it was more like 1% of the time.

I heard the same complaints when they were suggested in Riverside.  I understand that they might not be aesthetically pleasing but that's kind of the point- they need to be that way so that drivers notice them and yield to peds.

fieldafm

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2013, 11:58:26 AM »
We (SMPS) has fielded a few complaints about the look of the ped signs (too bright, ugly, etc.)

But - they work.  90% of the time when I am standing on the side waiting to cross, an approaching car will stop.  Before the project, it was more like 1% of the time.

I heard the same complaints when they were suggested in Riverside.  I understand that they might not be aesthetically pleasing but that's kind of the point- they need to be that way so that drivers notice them and yield to peds.

Amazing how these wayfaring markers work extremely well in keeping pedestrians safe wihout destroying the 'ambience' of popular places like Jax Beach, St Augustine, Destin, Savannah, St Armands (all pretty apt comparables to say the Shoppes of Avondale), etc but yet somehow they are feared in Riverside/Avondale.

Bridges

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2013, 12:17:55 PM »
We (SMPS) have fielded a few complaints about the look of the ped signs (too bright, ugly, etc.)

But - they work.  90% of the time when I am standing on the side waiting to cross, an approaching car will stop.  Before the project, it was more like 1% of the time.

Normally I've seen these signs dead in the middle of the street.  I actually think they're not bad at all in their current locations. 

Not only do they work in alerting drivers to walkers rights, but they also say that "this area is designed to be walked, park your car and feel free to walk".  Suddenly parking down the opposite side opposite end from your destination, doesn't seem like such a hike.  Perception is reality. 
So I said to him: Arthur, Artie come on, why does the salesman have to die? Change the title; The life of a salesman. That's what people want to see.

cline

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2013, 01:36:56 PM »
We (SMPS) have fielded a few complaints about the look of the ped signs (too bright, ugly, etc.)

But - they work.  90% of the time when I am standing on the side waiting to cross, an approaching car will stop.  Before the project, it was more like 1% of the time.

Normally I've seen these signs dead in the middle of the street.  I actually think they're not bad at all in their current locations. 

Not only do they work in alerting drivers to walkers rights, but they also say that "this area is designed to be walked, park your car and feel free to walk".  Suddenly parking down the opposite side opposite end from your destination, doesn't seem like such a hike.  Perception is reality. 

I can't remember off of the top of my head but I think one of the signs installed in front of St. Vincents is actually in the middle of the street in that small raised median.  At any rate they are very much needed in the Shoppes asap.  It is such a no-brainer that I'm baffled by it.  With all the lip service paid by the City and FDOT about safety one would think that something this easy and cheap to install would have been done long ago.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 01:38:45 PM by cline »

fieldafm

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2013, 02:09:51 PM »
We (SMPS) have fielded a few complaints about the look of the ped signs (too bright, ugly, etc.)

But - they work.  90% of the time when I am standing on the side waiting to cross, an approaching car will stop.  Before the project, it was more like 1% of the time.

Normally I've seen these signs dead in the middle of the street.  I actually think they're not bad at all in their current locations. 

Not only do they work in alerting drivers to walkers rights, but they also say that "this area is designed to be walked, park your car and feel free to walk".  Suddenly parking down the opposite side opposite end from your destination, doesn't seem like such a hike.  Perception is reality. 

I can't remember off of the top of my head but I think one of the signs installed in front of St. Vincents is actually in the middle of the street in that small raised median.  At any rate they are very much needed in the Shoppes asap.  It is such a no-brainer that I'm baffled by it.  With all the lip service paid by the City and FDOT about safety one would think that something this easy and cheap to install would have been done long ago.

Locally, you don't have to travel far.  Those particular signs are located along Riverside Ave across from St Vincents, as well as on Water Street in b/w the Water Street Garage and the CSX and 550 Water St Buildings in Downtown.  You can travel a little further down south and see them in use in St Augustine along King Street.




Is that sign (which works) all that contextually unsensitive to the neighborhood?  I'd argue that people speeding through St Johns Ave without regard for pedestrians crossing the street is much less contextually sensitive than a small yellow sign.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 02:12:04 PM by fieldafm »

Josh

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2013, 03:06:22 PM »
^ either that or they aren't pretty enough...in fact, I'm sure one vocal resident will tell you that signs aren't historic

This is literally true.

fsujax

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2013, 03:10:17 PM »
we need more of those ped signs around town.

cline

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2013, 03:15:06 PM »
Well, the AC unit in my historic home is less than 10 years old so I guess the historic value has been tarnished by modern comforts.  I'm pretty sure the street light on my street isn't historic either.  Just because the things don't look historic doesn't mean they don't belong in the district.  Perhaps when someone is seriously injured or killed by a car then those that opposed the signs due to their "look" can explain the reasoning to the victims loved ones. I'm sure that would go over well.

fieldafm

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2013, 03:23:12 PM »
It costs between $250-300 to have one of those signs installed.

That's it.  In Avondale, to install one at each of the 4 crosswalks would cost about $1200.  $1200 to clearly let drivers know who has the right of way and to enforce a state law that is hardly known nor enforced here in Duval County (a municipality which to no one's surprise has a horrible record on pedestrian/cycling deaths and injuries).

If the stop on Ingleside (near the Sherman Williams store) wasn't so set back from the street and the driver's view blocked by parked cars... you could replace all those expensive stop lights with stop signs and really slow down traffic and make a safe and calm environment for pedestrians.  As it stands, drivers exiting Ingleside South of St Johns Ave have an obstructed view of oncoming traffic due to the on street parking... so removing the traffic signal wouldn't be the safer option unfortunately.

I'm not a traffic engineer, but it doesn't take a brainiac to figure out the better option.

Of course, I don't want residential parking passes... so an opinion based on actual study of best practices, is arbitrarily discounted as coming from one of those pesky yard pissers which have apparently laid their trick money down and infiltrated the neighborhood.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2013, 03:29:32 PM by fieldafm »

dougskiles

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2013, 03:34:58 PM »
One thing to know about these signs is that they are only permitted in marked crosswalks where there is no traffic signal (or so I have been told by FDOT's engineer).

At the traffic signal, the red light is what is supposed to stop the cars for the pedestrians.  Of course the problem comes with drivers turning right on red and left turning drivers.  There is no standard sign for those conditions that I am aware of.

fieldafm

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2013, 03:50:41 PM »
Even better.  Close off vehicular access from Ingleside South of St Johns to St Johns Avenue (this creates an opportunity for more parking, especially for employee parking-which an honest parking turnover study should show as being a major contributor to parking in Avondale), tear down the traffic lights, put up stop signs instead and slow traffic down.

When the lights are green, vehicular speeds often well exceed 35mph on St Johns Ave going through the Shoppes.  That's not safe for pedestrians nor cyclist, and the area has lots of both.

Stop signs cost a considerably less than traffic lights.

thelakelander

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2013, 05:11:23 PM »
Even better.  Close off vehicular access from Ingleside South of St Johns to St Johns Avenue (this creates an opportunity for more parking, especially for employee parking-which an honest parking turnover study should show as being a major contributor to parking in Avondale), tear down the traffic lights, put up stop signs instead and slow traffic down.

When the lights are green, vehicular speeds often well exceed 35mph on St Johns Ave going through the Shoppes.  That's not safe for pedestrians nor cyclist, and the area has lots of both.

Stop signs cost a considerably less than traffic lights.
If San Diego can get away with this solution in the Gaslamp District, it should work in Avondale.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

dougskiles

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Re: Before & After: San Marco Square's Balis Park
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2013, 05:43:34 PM »
Even better.  Close off vehicular access from Ingleside South of St Johns to St Johns Avenue (this creates an opportunity for more parking, especially for employee parking-which an honest parking turnover study should show as being a major contributor to parking in Avondale), tear down the traffic lights, put up stop signs instead and slow traffic down.

When the lights are green, vehicular speeds often well exceed 35mph on St Johns Ave going through the Shoppes.  That's not safe for pedestrians nor cyclist, and the area has lots of both.

Stop signs cost a considerably less than traffic lights.

Brilliant idea.  It is so much nicer, calmer and quieter in the Square without the traffic lights.  With the traffic lights, it was a constant drag race to either beat the red light or beat someone from the green.  Now with the lane width restricted people rarely drive faster than 20 mph through.  Traffic moves steadily so that the net time through the area is faster, without people having to drive faster.