Author Topic: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center  (Read 17742 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« on: May 28, 2013, 03:04:55 AM »
Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center



Eight city blocks, five massive new buildings, four stand alone stations, and hundreds of millions of dollars will buy us a dysfunctional transportation center. The alternative is, remodel the Prime Osborn to reflect its original purpose by removing most of a single building, adding pavement and train tracks.  For a fraction of the Jacksonvillle Regional Transportation Center (JRTC) planned costs we get eight city blocks of new infill projects, a new convention center and a true multimodal terminal downtown, this is how its done.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2013-may-rethinking-the-jacksonville-transportation-center

ricker

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2013, 07:59:26 AM »
concur.beautiful delivery Mr.Mann.

All modes must meet within the most compact setting possible.

Can the August arrangement be postponed?

Noone

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2013, 08:06:57 AM »
Eight city blocks. The Courthouse on steroids!

mbwright

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2013, 08:15:43 AM »
A quick way to spend the most amount of money, for the worst possible outcome. 

This proposal is simple, makes sense, and easy to use.

JFman00

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2013, 08:24:08 AM »
As anyone who's transferred between transit modes can attest, they can be harrowing, confusing experiences for first time visitors in even the most transit-friendly cities. The JRTC as currently designed is like an intermodal center from hell designed to scare away new users and visitors from using it, and torture those that have no other options.

JayBird

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2013, 09:23:59 AM »
I was excited to see this discussion this morning, because I am of the mindset that this will change downtown, by attracting corporate business back into the core and thus causing other retail and residences to follow.  I have no industry knowledge, just that of a commuter.

Though I like the idea of condensing the current plan, my reasons are purely for the more TOD in the area.  As a person who uses transit all of the time, I don't see a major issue with the layout.  It is pretty straightforward, get off one mode, go to a packed main corridor to my next mode.  The only real drawback is walking, but how many people are going to go from Amtrak to Greyhound?  When I go to our office in Stamford, my route is Amtrak from Jax to NYC - Penn Station, then a 20 minute walk or two subway trains to Grand Central where I board Metro-North to Stamford.  So, that is certainly a harder transfer than this station would provide.  And remember, our destination is not the center, this is just a pass-thru on our way to somewhere else. Also, I would imagine that it enables areas to be shut down, for instance Greyhound has people in it 24 hours a day but JTA areas would become homeless sleep centers once the last buses pulled out if they had access to an all-in-one area. 

As for this design, I think the final will need to have the bus portion redesigned.  Out of curiosity this morning I went to the Rosa Parks/FSCJ Station and sat for a few minutes watching how things worked.  I noticed two things, a lot more people are utilizing the Skyway than I remember a year ago, which is a good thing. Also, in between 7:45 and 8 am I counted 27 buses that entered the east side of the station and each stayed for about 2 minutes, (two were there for almost 10 minutes and the driver of one said he was running early and had to wait to continue on, I felt bad for the people trying to get downtown that did not know their bus was 10 minutes early).  Now if you combine that traffic with Greyhound, and with cars coming in and out of that parking lot, it would be a gridlocked nightmare during peak periods.  What happened with this design from a few years ago?  Is there a reason this won't work?

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jun-ten-affordable-fixes-for-transportation-in-jacksonville



Also, if you left the layout as JTA has planned it, and remove the convention center, wouldn't that space be needed for commuter rail to the north, west and southwest?





But overall, great presentation and hopefully will urge the right people to at least think about other options.
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JeffreyS

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2013, 10:04:47 AM »
Obviously this idea is much better for transit needs and supporting an urban environment.
How much less expensive would the alternative project be?
How would we satisfy our convention center needs? Perhaps building one next to the Hyatt or the beach? Could we just split the duties between the Morocco shrine on St. Johns bluff and the downtown auditorium?
Lenny Smash

thelakelander

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2013, 10:28:45 AM »
Quote
Could we just split the duties between the Morocco shrine on St. Johns bluff and the downtown auditorium?

No.  If we're not going to have a convention center that can remotely compete within that competitive industry, it's not worth having one at all.

Quote
Obviously this idea is much better for transit needs and supporting an urban environment.
How much less expensive would the alternative project be?

Significantly less, if you're investing in one transportation center as opposed to four and working with existing infrastructure. Several intermodal centers serving similar modes have ran various peer cities somewhere between $20 - $50 million.  Without a real estimate, it's hard to say what Ock's idea would cost.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't get to hung up on exact designs and layouts at this point.  For example, I can look at Ock's plan and easily come up with three or four variations, including one that doesn't necessarily require the demolition of the exhibition hall either.  However, it's hard to even address the transportation center without resolving the convention center issue.  The way I see it is, 1) address convention center issue. A decision needs to be made on if it stays or goes.  2) Based on that decision and timeline, then lock down the best way to design a compact transportation center. 

In any event, the currently proposed configuration should die a quick and horrible death.  Even if it means delaying things by a year, two or three. Unfortunately, the idea of a functional intermodal center will take a huge hit if Greyhound does end up at Adams & Johnson.
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acme54321

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2013, 10:54:38 AM »
Is there a map of all the railroad leads that existed downtown in it's heyday?  A switching type model railroad layout of downtown jacksonville in that area would be awesome.

JayBird

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2013, 10:56:53 AM »
Quote
No.  If we're not going to have a convention center that can remotely compete within that competitive industry, it's not worth having one at all.

+1000

Quote
1) address convention center issue. A decision needs to be made on if it stays or goes.

It seems to me everyone, with the exception of those at JTA who draw these plans, that it will be relocated.  It seems the general consensus, IMO, is that some day it will occupy the space the old courthouse is on.  I think it is just a matter of someone coming up with the investment to make it happen.

Therefore, idk why JTA incessantly continues to keep that in their plans.

On a side note, does anyone else agree that as soon as we get a transit center at Jacksonville Terminal then Bay Street Station will be back on the table?

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-mar-bay-street-station-and-streetcars-coming-downtown
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JayBird

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2013, 10:58:13 AM »
Is there a map of all the railroad leads that existed downtown in it's heyday?  A switching type model railroad layout of downtown jacksonville in that area would be awesome.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-lost-jacksonville-union-terminal
Proud supporter of the Jacksonville Jaguars.

"Whenever I’ve been at a decision point, and there was an easy way and a hard way, the hard way always turned out to be the right way." ~Shahid Khan

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Tacachale

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2013, 11:01:14 AM »
This seems like a much more sensible site plan. But how could it work if, as seems likely, the convention center will remain in Union Terminal for the foreseeable future? Also, as the Greyhound station seems like it will go two blocks north as currently planned, would removing that from the condensed section free up some other space?
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

thelakelander

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2013, 11:12:34 AM »
It's been assumed by many that the convention center will relocate to the Hyatt.  However, there's no solid commitment or money dedicated, so the convention center could realistically be at the terminal for another decade.  The major problem I see is JTA and the city want Greyhound relocated ASAP.

This is where I believe a firm commitment to relocate the convention center is needed.  If it were to be removed but that move being a decade or so a way, why not add Greyhound to the existing complex and reconfigure a portion of the convention center's parking lot to serve as a bus apron and loading area?

As for local buses, could the existing lot adjacent the the Skyway be utilized for this in the short term? To me, it seems the key to reducing costs is to take advantage of existing infrastructure as much as possible. However, that is totally reliant on what happens with the convention center and when.
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InnerCityPressure

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2013, 11:17:09 AM »
In any event, the currently proposed configuration should die a quick and horrible death. 

What can we do to assist with the murder?

Tacachale

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 11:32:23 AM »
It's been assumed by many that the convention center will relocate to the Hyatt.  However, there's no solid commitment or money dedicated, so the convention center could realistically be at the terminal for another decade.  The major problem I see is JTA and the city want Greyhound relocated ASAP.

This is where I believe a firm commitment to relocate the convention center is needed.  If it were to be removed but that move being a decade or so a way, why not add Greyhound to the existing complex and reconfigure a portion of the convention center's parking lot to serve as a bus apron and loading area?

As for local buses, could the existing lot adjacent the the Skyway be utilized for this in the short term? To me, it seems the key to reducing costs is to take advantage of existing infrastructure as much as possible. However, that is totally reliant on what happens with the convention center and when.

The convention center is the big issue. And I don't think we're going to see a commitment to move it elsewhere unless things change really soon. Unfortunately, we may end up both moving the convention center, and having a sprawled out mess of a transit center with a huge empty space in the middle of it down the road.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?