Author Topic: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center  (Read 17763 times)

simms3

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2013, 10:39:46 PM »
Ock, I've driven through Meridian.  Depressing small town that is dying, not to mention it is in MS.  Jax has an opportunity to plug itself into the Amtrack network (which would be contingent on AAF and the state/feds beefing up its rail connections), and I agree it should - makes no sense to have that Amshak way up on the NS, but a huge multimodal transit hub seems pointless at this time.  I also highly doubt that it would spur development in and of itself (the act of investing in DT infrastructure with a permanent base like that could give companies and landlords more confidence to invest in office downtown, which means jobs, which could spur multifamily...but it's a wide bet without strong economic drivers separate from a transit hub).

A "multimodal" station in Ocala or Meridian or some small town is not apples to apples to what a multimodal station should be even for a transit-underutilized million person market such as Jax would need.  Plus, we are talking about re-adapting Jacksonville's union station, which is probably exponentially larger than any of the small town stations and compares in size to the stations found in KCMO, STL, Omaha, Denver (probably actually larger than Denver's, right?), etc.

I don't see why it can't just be Amtrak now, with bus transfer and obviously next door to Skyway.  To make the investment to totally transform it into some huge multimodal system designed to handle all sorts of transit modes for systems that don't yet even exist seems a waste.  Not to mention, the bus system is totally underutilized as it is and the city/JTA can't even figure out the simple concept of roadside bus stations!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 10:41:19 PM by simms3 »
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coredumped

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2013, 11:11:42 PM »
So what can be done? Is there going to be a hearing or anything? It looks like this is pretty far forward - are we just screwed here?
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Ralph W

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2013, 11:25:25 PM »
JTA doesn't appear to have any heartache with a $180 million price tag to develop a sprawling intermodal center, starting with an ill-conceived idea that Greyhound needs to be first to occupy the north forty away from the rest of the pack. If, in reply # 8, the cost of a compact center could be south of $50 million and a full-blown convention center could come in at a little more than $100 million, then there's the $180 million better spent.

Also, how much would COJ and our fair city suffer without a large convention center for a while? If the number crunchers and the event planners could come together and utilize what we already have, not including the convention center, would there really be the dire financial impact so many fear?

I'm all for closing out (honoring) the current bookings at the Prime Osborn while concurrently lining up the resources to make the switch. Do without a super convention center for a while but stop beating around the bush and make it happen at a better location.

simms3

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2013, 12:25:21 AM »
^^^Yes, good logical points.  On the point of the CC, does anyone know how expensive it would be to stabilize the parking deck by the Hyatt to build on?  The Warriors are relocating to a new $900MM <20,000 seat arena in SF, and the bulk of that cost is the stabilization of the pier that the arena will be built on.
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ricker

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #34 on: May 29, 2013, 01:34:33 AM »
OCK,

Can the August lease by Greyhound be put off until such a site revision as you suggest can be approved?

Is Greyhound stuck moving 3 blocks north of Bay, so far away from the Terminal?

JayBird

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2013, 09:36:49 AM »
OCK,

Can the August lease by Greyhound be put off until such a site revision as you suggest can be approved?

Is Greyhound stuck moving 3 blocks north of Bay, so far away from the Terminal?

True, this is actually the real question.  Right now, today, what are the obligations that JTA has or has made concerning JRTC?

And, being that this seems to have become a CC thread too, what is City Hall's current stance on that today? I remember someone (Sleiman??) who actually had some fancy drawings for a Hyatt location but has DIA/City Hall/Mayor made any official stand on the subject?
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fsquid

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2013, 10:49:50 AM »
Quote
Ock, I've driven through Meridian.  Depressing small town that is dying, not to mention it is in MS.

It's a small town in MS, but its actually doing well and will continue to as long the NAS, Air National Guard, and Peavy Electronics are still HQ there.  Not to mention the tourism from the Civil War and Civil Rights era that took place around there.

No clue if it is apples to oranges, but certainly would not hurt the city of JAX to look at a place where it has worked and see if it can work in a larger metro.

JeffreyS

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #37 on: May 29, 2013, 11:02:06 AM »


In the short term if we have to move the Greyhound station couldn't we put it where the JTA bus terminal is planned. The rest of the transit center could still be condensed without having Greyhound as an outlier blocks away.
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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2013, 10:53:07 PM »

Dearborn, MI, Intermodal Passenger Terminal


Niagara Falls, Intermodal Transportation Center

Agreed.  JTA can't even figure out how to operate a successful bus system, so I think the basics need to come first with a back of the mind vision for a intermodal hub later. I mean really only the largest cities are doing these intermodal hubs currently, Denver literally being the smallest city building one...and it's at least twice the size of metro Jax and has a substantial multi-modal transportation system with high daily ridership and a genuine need for transportation options to serve all people.

You are the one that stated Denver is the smallest city building one, Ocala, Meridian, Rochester , Normal, Cedar Falls, Durango, Fairfield, Albany, all have them...   And the list just goes on and on. You know as well as I do that cities from Jesup Georgia, to Tacoma Washington, and Anaheim to Brattleboro, small, medium, large are going multimodal. Considering many people reading this thread might actually buy-in to your contention that we are so hopelessly small and inept that we shouldn't try. Certainly the JTA of the last couple of decades has been a bumbling failure, but it appears the agency and the City is turning the corner.  A scaled down JRTC that requires virtually ZERO new buildings in conjunction with a major developer-player (and YES they are here looking) would be that winning combination.

Besides the photos, here is a short list of just the intermodal passenger facilities in New York State:

New York Penn Station (Manhattan) - Amtrak, LIRR, New Jersey Transit, New York City Subway, Buses
Grand Central Terminal (Manhattan) - Metro-North, New York City Subway, Buses
Existing and Proposed World Trade Center Complex (Manhattan) - PATH, New York City Subway, Ferries, Buses
Midtown Port Authority Bus Terminal (Manhattan) - New York City Subway, Intercity/Commuter/Local Buses
Uptown Port Authority Bus Terminal (Manhattan) - New York City Subway, Commuter/Local Buses
Whitehall Terminal (Manhattan) - New York City Subway, Staten Island and Other Ferries, Buses
Harlem/125th Street (Manhattan) - Metro-North, New York City Subway, Buses
Atlantic Terminal (Brooklyn) - LIRR, New York City Subway, Buses
Jamaica Station (Queens) - LIRR, New York City Subway, Airtrain, Buses
Woodside Station (Queens) - LIRR, New York City Subway, Buses
Long Island City Station (Queens) - LIRR, New York City Subway, Ferries, Buses
St. George Ferry/Intermodal Terminal (Staten Island) - Staten Island Railway, Staten Island Ferry, Buses
Hempstead Transit Center (Nassau) - LIRR, Buses
Mineola Intermodal Center (Nassau) - LIRR, Buses
New Rochelle Intermodal Center (Westchester) - Amtrak, Metro-North, Buses
White Plains Metro-North Station (Westchester) - Metro-North, Buses
Yonkers Metro-North Station (Westchester) - Amtrak, Metro-North, Buses
Poughkeepsie Station (Dutchess) - Amtrak, Metro-North, Buses
Rensselaer Station (Rensselaer) - Amtrak, Buses
Utica Union Station (Oneida) - Amtrak, Adirondack Scenic Railway, Buses
Syracuse Intermodal Center (Onondaga) - Amtrak, Buses


Moscow, IA. Intermodal Center

So what can be done? Is there going to be a hearing or anything? It looks like this is pretty far forward - are we just screwed here?

There are meetings this week, there will be many more, citizens could and should contact the mayors office and JTA and make a plea for this sensible transition. While it is in engineering, that process could stop Friday if the JTA learns that Greyhound is willing to stall (they are/and I know that first hand).


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OCK,

Can the August lease by Greyhound be put off until such a site revision as you suggest can be approved?

Is Greyhound stuck moving 3 blocks north of Bay, so far away from the Terminal?

True, this is actually the real question.  Right now, today, what are the obligations that JTA has or has made concerning JRTC?

And, being that this seems to have become a CC thread too, what is City Hall's current stance on that today? I remember someone (Sleiman??) who actually had some fancy drawings for a Hyatt location but has DIA/City Hall/Mayor made any official stand on the subject?

Yes there are obligations and a signed lease with Greyhound, however Greyhound likes the revised plan and will be here Friday to discuss the whole project with JTA. This is doable, the mayor will have to step up and make a quick decision on the Conventions (mostly home, garden and gun shows) and they could be turning dirt sometime early next year. The key will be can Nathan Ford promise Greyhound that JTA will go to the mayor for a solid decision, YES or NO on the Convention Center, then move quickly if we get a green light?


Brunswick, Maine, 'Maine Street Intermodal Center, and connected multi-use development.'

Quote
Ock, I've driven through Meridian.  Depressing small town that is dying, not to mention it is in MS.

It's a small town in MS, but its actually doing well and will continue to as long the NAS, Air National Guard, and Peavy Electronics are still HQ there.  Not to mention the tourism from the Civil War and Civil Rights era that took place around there.

No clue if it is apples to oranges, but certainly would not hurt the city of JAX to look at a place where it has worked and see if it can work in a larger metro.

It is apples to apples, the reason being is it is defined as INTERMODAL, be that a single community transit bus meets train, or a small municipal transit authority meets Amtrak and Greyhound, or a major metro with a dozen carriers, commuter rail, buses and transit service.  It works because it eliminates costs for the carriers and it increases options for the passengers, all of which equates to higher revenues for the transportation companies and municipalities.



Meridian, Mississippi parlayed a $1 million dollar investment into $8 million of TOD and TAD investment.


In the short term if we have to move the Greyhound station couldn't we put it where the JTA bus terminal is planned. The rest of the transit center could still be condensed without having Greyhound as an outlier blocks away.

There are a lot of options, the old rail yard just south of the station could easily house a temporary station and parking, close the eastbound lane in Bay Street and set up a curbside boarding zone by the older part of the terminal, leasing out the old 'Colored Waiting Room' as station space, or set up shop under the Skyway station. The main movements of the first act must be accommodating Greyhound and moving the conventions.


Las Cruces Intermodal Station Nearing Completion


Anaheim, CA. Intermodal Transportation Center

JFman00

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2013, 11:03:32 PM »
Are we calling any rail station where buses stop at + a parking lot an intermodal center?

YellowBluffRoad

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2013, 12:27:28 AM »
I've recently learned to look at passenger intermodal transit from my father's point of view. He's elderly, can't drive, and needs a walker or cane to walk more than 1/2 block, but remains fiercely independent. I know this is simplistic, but if the design supports a senior citizen with limited mobility, then its design should (hopefully) be usable for most of its target ridership.

Placing at least the local bus terminal near the train terminal is important to folks with mobility challenges. That's not just senior citizens using canes, but families with children, vacationers not familiar with their surroundings, etc.

The new official design is disappointing to me, since it's so close to, yet so far from a great approach. With the new design, it appears terminal passengers have several blocks to walk from train terminal to JTA bus terminal, unless the "transport concourse" includes a moving walkway. Even if it does, there's still a long hike (a long city block?) from the train terminal to the start of the transport concourse. Certainly not a "pedestrian-friendly" transit solution for people with disabilities, and probably more expensive to maintain annually than a more compact design would be. The design should make transfer from rail to bus (then to airport) easy, and a long walk between transfer points negates that as well.

From what I see of the official design, transit transfers look like they will be difficult for folks with mobility challenges. If the design doesn't support that need, and mobility-challenged individuals still need to plan for private transportation to fill the void, then what has really been accomplished by putting these transit hubs close, yet not close enough to facilitate easy transfer? Is ADA-friendly design really a bad concept, given the aging US population? Why even invest in it if it's not going to meet the needs of those who need it the most? Shorten the transfer distances and there's the chance for a true long-term winner here, in my opinion.

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #41 on: May 30, 2013, 09:34:06 AM »
Are we calling any rail station where buses stop at + a parking lot an intermodal center?

Not really, all of the intermodal centers I have mentioned are purpose built for ease of access and connections.

YellowBluffRoad, the city blocks in that section of town are 300' long, based on this to move from the center of the rail platforms to the Greyhound Station via 'the concourse' is 7 city blocks + 2 flights of stairs/elevators/etc up and 2 down.

simms3

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #42 on: May 30, 2013, 11:24:55 AM »
Are we calling any rail station where buses stop at + a parking lot an intermodal center?

LoL.

Ock good point that I have of course agreed with that we should spruce up POCC to include Amtrak and of course the Skyway connection already there.  Anything low cost and more effective than what we have today.

I totally disagree with you that private developers would look at Jax and are looking at Jax for significant projects to complete, i.e. a multimillion dollar or billion dollar mulitmodal hub with mixed-use component or surrounding TOD.  I have witnessed firsthand developers pass on deals in Jax simply because they were in Jax (good, solid "core" deals).  Atlanta's got a major public-private partnership going between the city and a JV consisting of major national developers Forest City Enterprises, Cousins, and the Integral Group.  Other teams that responded to the RFP included the John Buck Co, Hines, Jacoby and others.  Still years out from happening and issues to work out between GDOT and rail companies.  Would never happen in Jax.

I'd make the case that developers won't come in with "TOD" infill either simply because the city spends money on an intermodal terminal there.  I'm sure everyone's in a wait and see with 225 Riverside to determine if there even is demand for expensive infill and how the project does, and anything else added in the area will be contingent on the local DT job market and the success of 225 Riverside.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2013, 12:06:28 PM by simms3 »
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thelakelander

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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2013, 01:34:33 PM »
Seems like Pollack Shores (Riverside Park) and Arbour Valley (Ambassador Hotel) aren't waiting for 220 Riverside to determine if they will move forward on their projects or not.  Units also seem to be rapidly mushrooming all around the Southside.  There, I truly question if we're overbuilding.
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Re: Rethinking the Jacksonville Transportation Center
« Reply #44 on: May 30, 2013, 02:02:04 PM »
Perhaps, but remember that aircraft carrier will single handedly deliver around 10,000 new residents. This plus other recent announcments are grounds to be optimistic. I agree that downtown is starting to move, recall that article a week or two ago that put us near the top for business and economy.