Author Topic: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown  (Read 11913 times)

jaxnyc79

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #60 on: May 22, 2018, 10:05:37 AM »
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.

Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.

More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.

Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole?  What of downtown revitalization by force?  The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.

As I understand it, the exact opposite of that was how we ended up where we are (in part, at least). Companies were offered incentives to move to the southside.

Wow, seriously?  You must be kidding.  Have the whole lot of past government officials in Jax been lead poisoned?

thelakelander

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #61 on: May 22, 2018, 10:14:46 AM »
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.

There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.
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Adam White

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #62 on: May 22, 2018, 10:16:41 AM »
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.

Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.

More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.

Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole?  What of downtown revitalization by force?  The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.

As I understand it, the exact opposite of that was how we ended up where we are (in part, at least). Companies were offered incentives to move to the southside.

Wow, seriously?  You must be kidding.  Have the whole lot of past government officials in Jax been lead poisoned?

I remember reading about it in the T-U (I think it was in the early/mid-90s when I was in university). I don't recall the specifics, but there was apparently a concerted effort to get businesses to leave downtown and go to the southside. I don't know what incentives were offered, but I believe tax breaks figured in.
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jaxnyc79

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #63 on: May 22, 2018, 10:35:27 AM »
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.

There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.

Did you even read my entire post?  I didn't say Jax had to resemble Seattle or NYC.  I gave Ken a realistic but upbeat outlook on being a downtown pioneer.  And while Seattle or NYC may be at one end of a spectrum, it's not as though Jax is in the middle...it's at the other end-point of the spectrum and even moving away from that would represent a vast improvement.  And I interpreted from Adam's post that Jax directly incentivized companies to pack up and leave downtown.  That seems pretty extraordinary for a City Government wherein the 'burbs and core are consolidated in their oversight.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 10:37:34 AM by jaxnyc79 »

Steve

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #64 on: May 22, 2018, 10:51:21 AM »
I see Kerry's point, even if I don't share the sentiment. His point is that Suburban growth happens without any effort on people's part.

Regardless, the bottom line is this: Downtown Jacksonville is depressed in many ways. It didn't happen overnight, and as we have seen, isn't turning around overnight ether. There's no point in rehashing all of the reasons, but the bottom line is this: if people don't show they give a damn, then it gets the topic out of the conversation, and that isn't good.

More is happening now than I've seen in all of my time living here, and that's good. At the same time, things still seem painfully slow. The biggest issue in my opinion is actually the very low cost of living in the city, putting huge pressure on construction costs. That's not a quick fix unfortunately. But, with projects like the Barnett actually in work, and things are looking better for the Laura Trio than they have ever looked, so it keeps me motivated.

Given we have consolidated government, would it be possible for the city to put downtown at a competitive advantage to the 'burbs through zoning laws and other regulatory rigmarole?  What of downtown revitalization by force?  The city seems to "permit" so much throughout the county, through land use regulation, just force the construction of dense or intense uses in and around the core and away from a patch of pine trees.

As I understand it, the exact opposite of that was how we ended up where we are (in part, at least). Companies were offered incentives to move to the southside.

Wow, seriously?  You must be kidding.  Have the whole lot of past government officials in Jax been lead poisoned?

I remember reading about it in the T-U (I think it was in the early/mid-90s when I was in university). I don't recall the specifics, but there was apparently a concerted effort to get businesses to leave downtown and go to the southside. I don't know what incentives were offered, but I believe tax breaks figured in.

I know of two major ones - Mayo Clinic, who was officially offered private land so I'm not sure the government kicked in a subsidy. Now, they were NEVER coming downtown. Their gig is suburban campuses (Rochester and Scottsdale).

Adam may be referencing AHL (now Allstate, at San Pablo and JTB). I had just moved here, but I seem to remember something happened with incentives.

I think it wasn't specifically "leave Downtown, go to the burbs". I think they were threatening to leave Jacksonville. That's a difficult decision - force them to stay downtown or have them leave, or secure them in the burbs?

jaxnyc79

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #65 on: May 22, 2018, 11:19:47 AM »
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether."  Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch.  I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.

KenFSU

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #66 on: May 22, 2018, 11:38:43 AM »
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether."  Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch.  I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.

https://itep.org/tax-incentives-costly-for-states-drag-on-the-nation/
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jaxnyc79

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #67 on: May 22, 2018, 11:46:09 AM »
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether."  Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch.  I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.

https://itep.org/tax-incentives-costly-for-states-drag-on-the-nation/

Yes! Exactly!  By the way, the issue of tax incentives is in some way linked to my views on JEA.  The idea of a community-owned endeavor that is in the business of converting raw inputs into a use that everyone can consume and benefit from, and that powers other value-add activities locally, is a very powerful idea.  If, for whatever reason, global trade were to break down, the people of Jax (not just the rich or the well-heeled) own the productive means by which they and their communities are sustained.

sanmarcomatt

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #68 on: May 22, 2018, 11:46:49 AM »
  Why should those of living in the urbanized portion of the City have to do anything. 

First, I applaud your decision to move if you have concluded that living in Jax (and I agree it isn't going to change enough for you in the near future) isn't for you. I am amazed that so many people don't have it in them to take a chance on making a change.

Second, this one of those most pathetic things I have ever seen typed.

My God, man, the guy is frustrated and is reaching out to the message board.  I applaud him for living in Downtown Jax for a year.  If downtown is to thrive, there must be a community to offer encouragement, hope and support.  Why this message board needs to crucify people in their frustrations, I'll never know - especially someone who actually lives and spends money in the core.

Not sure if a post that includes applauding one's decision making would qualify as "crucifying" but fine.

One of my *many* character flaws is a zero tolerance for whining/shifting responsibility by an adult. My experience is that excusing/enabling that type of attitude just leads to more of it.

However, I certainly  see your point and thought you had an excellent response.Actually, I thought  comparing our responses was rather amusing. But.....I have an unusual sense of humor.

jaxnyc79

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #69 on: May 22, 2018, 11:52:41 AM »
  Why should those of living in the urbanized portion of the City have to do anything. 

First, I applaud your decision to move if you have concluded that living in Jax (and I agree it isn't going to change enough for you in the near future) isn't for you. I am amazed that so many people don't have it in them to take a chance on making a change.

Second, this one of those most pathetic things I have ever seen typed.

My God, man, the guy is frustrated and is reaching out to the message board.  I applaud him for living in Downtown Jax for a year.  If downtown is to thrive, there must be a community to offer encouragement, hope and support.  Why this message board needs to crucify people in their frustrations, I'll never know - especially someone who actually lives and spends money in the core.

Not sure if a post that includes applauding one's decision making would qualify as "crucifying" but fine.

One of my *many* character flaws is a zero tolerance for whining/shifting responsibility by an adult. My experience is that excusing/enabling that type of attitude just leads to more of it.

However, I certainly  see your point and thought you had an excellent response.Actually, I thought  comparing our responses was rather amusing. But.....I have an unusual sense of humor.

I don't know Ken's balance sheet - but a downtown denizen with disposable income appears to be a very scarce resource in Jax.  We must cherish and refurbish and safeguard it at all costs.  He's just losing faith - we must tell him to keep it:).  A pioneer today is a founding father tomorrow:). 

sanmarcomatt

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #70 on: May 22, 2018, 12:06:59 PM »
  Why should those of living in the urbanized portion of the City have to do anything. 

First, I applaud your decision to move if you have concluded that living in Jax (and I agree it isn't going to change enough for you in the near future) isn't for you. I am amazed that so many people don't have it in them to take a chance on making a change.

Second, this one of those most pathetic things I have ever seen typed.

My God, man, the guy is frustrated and is reaching out to the message board.  I applaud him for living in Downtown Jax for a year.  If downtown is to thrive, there must be a community to offer encouragement, hope and support.  Why this message board needs to crucify people in their frustrations, I'll never know - especially someone who actually lives and spends money in the core.

Not sure if a post that includes applauding one's decision making would qualify as "crucifying" but fine.

One of my *many* character flaws is a zero tolerance for whining/shifting responsibility by an adult. My experience is that excusing/enabling that type of attitude just leads to more of it.

However, I certainly  see your point and thought you had an excellent response.Actually, I thought  comparing our responses was rather amusing. But.....I have an unusual sense of humor.

I don't know Ken's balance sheet - but a downtown denizen with disposable income appears to be a very scarce resource in Jax.  We must cherish and refurbish and safeguard it at all costs.  He's just losing faith - we must tell him to keep it:).  A pioneer today is a founding father tomorrow:). 

And a nice, helpful person like yourself would agree. But I am a selfish, Gordon Gekko worshiping ex-Masshole.

I think he should build up cash reserves, and get the blank out. Free Kerry!
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Tacachale

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #71 on: May 22, 2018, 12:26:13 PM »
Ah, that would be sort of tricky - "give us incentives to leave downtown but stay in the area, or we'll leave the area altogether."  Honestly, I really despise tax incentives programs, and hate how companies grab cities like Jax in the proverbial crotch.  I once reviewed a 2013 study that said it is impossible to fully account for such programs nationally, but that there was credible evidence to suggest that these programs failed to yield meaningful returns, did not stack up well against alternative forms of incentivization, and were a drag on the national economy.

https://itep.org/tax-incentives-costly-for-states-drag-on-the-nation/

I very much doubt the city ever directly incentivized a company to leave downtown as such. We've done plenty of incentives to attract companies that have set up in the suburbs, however. In a few cases I can recall, that has included incentives for companies that had a presence downtown, to grow or add jobs in the suburbs. That may have added total jobs to the overall economy, but isn't good for downtown specifically. In 2011, we incentivized EverBank to move from the suburbs to Downtown.

Like most cities, we've also done plenty of indirect subsidies that have resulted in companies leaving Downtown. For instance JTB, which got public money, was in large part an effort to open up the adjacent land for development. New office buildings went up and various former downtown companies moved in. Of course, it also attracted a lot of new companies that wouldn't otherwise have come here.
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ProjectMaximus

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #72 on: May 22, 2018, 01:55:11 PM »
And a nice, helpful person like yourself would agree. But I am a selfish, Gordon Gekko worshiping ex-Masshole.

I think he should build up cash reserves, and get the blank out. Free Kerry!
(Just don't pack the whine.)

I'm starting to think that I've been on these boards too long. Maybe what I perceived to be Jaxnyc's defensiveness in another thread was actually perfectly reasonable on his part, and my interpretation of these conversations is warped by 11 years of getting to know you characters and hearing/seeing things through a dusty lens. #NotNormal

thelakelander

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #73 on: May 22, 2018, 02:25:09 PM »
Like most of America, we subsidized the burbs and continue to do so. Jax isn't much different from most second tier regional cities in that regard. One will truly get frustrated if they're expecting DT Jax to resemble larger, older, denser urban cities like Seattle, NYC, etc. That's not happening in our lifetimes, no matter what the growth spurt is.

There's more happening in DT Jax now than at any other period in time that I've lived here (since Fall 2003). However, expectations must be balanced with the reality of scale, historic development patterns and context.

Did you even read my entire post?  I didn't say Jax had to resemble Seattle or NYC.  I gave Ken a realistic but upbeat outlook on being a downtown pioneer.  And while Seattle or NYC may be at one end of a spectrum, it's not as though Jax is in the middle...it's at the other end-point of the spectrum and even moving away from that would represent a vast improvement.  And I interpreted from Adam's post that Jax directly incentivized companies to pack up and leave downtown.  That seems pretty extraordinary for a City Government wherein the 'burbs and core are consolidated in their oversight.
No I didn't read it. It wasn't in response to your's. It was a general thread comment.
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sanmarcomatt

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Re: Quiznos and Adams Street Deli Want Food Trucks Out of Downtown
« Reply #74 on: May 22, 2018, 02:57:36 PM »
And a nice, helpful person like yourself would agree. But I am a selfish, Gordon Gekko worshiping ex-Masshole.

I think he should build up cash reserves, and get the blank out. Free Kerry!
(Just don't pack the whine.)

I'm starting to think that I've been on these boards too long. Maybe what I perceived to be Jaxnyc's defensiveness in another thread was actually perfectly reasonable on his part, and my interpretation of these conversations is warped by 11 years of getting to know you characters and hearing/seeing things through a dusty lens. #NotNormal

Interesting that you chose to wax poetically about being warped by MJ in a response to my post. I will choose to take some pride in that. If you had tossed in  a "greed is good" I may have teared up.