RiverTown, Busting at the Seams

[If_I_Loved_you]

Hey Stephen whats up with this Re: RiverTown, \ ? And why does it come with my post and John P post and no one else who has posted to this thread?

I fixed it for you. 

What happens is that the title can be changed by the person posting the new post in a thread.

When you press 'reply' to that particular post, it will copy that changed title.

You and JohnP had apparently clicked 'reply' to one of the posts of someone who changed the title on their response.

Thanks

[fsquid]

that place is at least 15 minutes down a 2 lane SR13 from the Duval County line.  Seems a bit far to have a huge demand.

[tufsu1]

It is all a matter of time...there are roads being widened and extended to provide access to Rivertown from CR 210....and with connections up to Racetrack Road and 9B (yay, I'm so excited ) SR 13 won't be the main access point.

[fsquid]

good point, wasn't even thinking about access from the East.  I'm guessing Longleaf runs nearby.

[tufsu1]

good point, wasn't even thinking about access from the East.  I'm guessing Longleaf runs nearby.

it sure does....it was built through the Rivertown property...and there is direct connection to the first phase through a local street

[CityLife]

As for the busting at the seems comment, kind of irresponsible to say when Nocatee and Durbin Crossing are blowing it out of the water.

Seam : a line, groove, or ridge formed by the abutment of edges.

The edges (native forests to developed area) of the community have remained static for years, virtually all of the growth, infrastructure, parks, roads, and new houses has sprung to life in the last few months. Thus the 'edges' or 'seams' of the community have been broached by a new frenzy of development.

burst:
1. a. To come open or fly apart suddenly or violently, especially from internal pressure.
b. To explode.
2. To be or seem to be full to the point of breaking open

You can attempt to spin it however you want, but the literal definition of the phrase is "to be filled to or beyond normal capacity".

The front page also says, "suddenly bursting from it's boundaries in a rapid and rather massive building boom". That actually implies that growth is spilling over outside of its boundaries.

I don't think anyone here is rooting for RiverTown to fail, but many are pointing out that this is essentially a fluff piece not exactly grounded in reality. If you want to give an accurate look at how quickly RiverTown is growing, try analyzing building permits there compared to Nocatee, Durbin Crossing, Palencia, and other master planned communities in SJC.

[fieldafm]

It is all a matter of time...there are roads being widened and extended to provide access to Rivertown from CR 210....and with connections up to Racetrack Road and 9B (yay, I'm so excited ) SR 13 won't be the main access point.

That's the part of the development where Bartram Trail HS is presently located and where the commercial town center portion of the project will be in the future.  Joe's goal is to have most of the major traffic be funneled here instead of SR13. 

I still think (and the surrounding residents resoundly agree) that this is going to impose major capacity problems on SR13 down the road (excuse the pun)... and it would be a real shame to undego a major widening of that road considering the beautiful canopy environment of this once quiet country road (it's a great place for a road bicycle ride).  It seems that is unfurtunately inevitable with the big push to widen the Shands Bridge.   

[Steve_Lovett]

As for the busting at the seems comment, kind of irresponsible to say when Nocatee and Durbin Crossing are blowing it out of the water.

Seam : a line, groove, or ridge formed by the abutment of edges.

The edges (native forests to developed area) of the community have remained static for years, virtually all of the growth, infrastructure, parks, roads, and new houses has sprung to life in the last few months. Thus the 'edges' or 'seams' of the community have been broached by a new frenzy of development.

burst:
1. a. To come open or fly apart suddenly or violently, especially from internal pressure.
b. To explode.
2. To be or seem to be full to the point of breaking open

You can attempt to spin it however you want, but the literal definition of the phrase is "to be filled to or beyond normal capacity".

The front page also says, "suddenly bursting from it's boundaries in a rapid and rather massive building boom". That actually implies that growth is spilling over outside of its boundaries.

I don't think anyone here is rooting for RiverTown to fail, but many are pointing out that this is essentially a fluff piece not exactly grounded in reality. If you want to give an accurate look at how quickly RiverTown is growing, try analyzing building permits there compared to Nocatee, Durbin Crossing, Palencia, and other master planned communities in SJC.

It's worth noting that any/all sales activity has occurred without a project entry in place, and with amenities only completed since early summer. The other communities have been around far longer, and most are more "conventional" communities planned/built for bulk land sales and development speed first and foremost.

[CityLife]

The developers and builders may have prepaid some of their impact fees and may have credits from SJC, but they still do pay impact fees on a per home basis. The fees are either coming from pre-payment, credits, or in cash at the time of each building permit being pulled.

How are they getting trip credits per home then unless they paid up front?  I could see trip credits in the commercial portion b/c a lot of those vehicle trips could be shown to have been absorbed when buildout of the Bartram Trail High School roadway/infrastructure was built.

I was under the impression that these fees were paid when Joe cleared the land out, so I am trying to clear up that apparent misconception on my part.

The agreements with those developers and SJC probably go beyond my level of financial competency and knowledge, but they likely got credits for building infrastructure and concurrency that could be applied to impact fees. Prior to land clearing they very well could have built up enough credits from the county to offset any impact fees for future homes.  I was really just pointing out earlier that being in a CDD doesn't preclude a developer from having to pay impact fees.

[cline]

As for the busting at the seems comment, kind of irresponsible to say when Nocatee and Durbin Crossing are blowing it out of the water.

Seam : a line, groove, or ridge formed by the abutment of edges.

The edges (native forests to developed area) of the community have remained static for years, virtually all of the growth, infrastructure, parks, roads, and new houses has sprung to life in the last few months. Thus the 'edges' or 'seams' of the community have been broached by a new frenzy of development.

burst:
1. a. To come open or fly apart suddenly or violently, especially from internal pressure.
b. To explode.
2. To be or seem to be full to the point of breaking open

You can attempt to spin it however you want, but the literal definition of the phrase is "to be filled to or beyond normal capacity".

The front page also says, "suddenly bursting from it's boundaries in a rapid and rather massive building boom". That actually implies that growth is spilling over outside of its boundaries.

I don't think anyone here is rooting for RiverTown to fail, but many are pointing out that this is essentially a fluff piece not exactly grounded in reality. If you want to give an accurate look at how quickly RiverTown is growing, try analyzing building permits there compared to Nocatee, Durbin Crossing, Palencia, and other master planned communities in SJC.

It's worth noting that any/all sales activity has occurred without a project entry in place, and with amenities only completed since early summer. The other communities have been around far longer, and most are more "conventional" communities planned/built for bulk land sales and development speed first and foremost.

The development has been sitting idle for years.  Once the infrastructure was in place there was no demand for the homes so it sat (and silted into the river).  That's the reason it is "behind" the other developments in the area.  I really don't think you can' recreate "old Florida". 

[fieldafm]

The developers and builders may have prepaid some of their impact fees and may have credits from SJC, but they still do pay impact fees on a per home basis. The fees are either coming from pre-payment, credits, or in cash at the time of each building permit being pulled.

How are they getting trip credits per home then unless they paid up front?  I could see trip credits in the commercial portion b/c a lot of those vehicle trips could be shown to have been absorbed when buildout of the Bartram Trail High School roadway/infrastructure was built.

I was under the impression that these fees were paid when Joe cleared the land out, so I am trying to clear up that apparent misconception on my part.

The agreements with those developers and SJC probably go beyond my level of financial competency and knowledge, but they likely got credits for building infrastructure and concurrency that could be applied to impact fees. Prior to land clearing they very well could have built up enough credits from the county to offset any impact fees for future homes.  I was really just pointing out earlier that being in a CDD doesn't preclude a developer from having to pay impact fees.

That makes sense in regards to applying trip credits against previously built infrastructure provided by the CDD.  I was still under the impression that a large (or all) portion of SJC's traditional residential impact fees were covered under a mitigation fee Joe paid for like in 2005/2006.  I'll have to make a call, b/c it's now an itch I have to scratch today.

[Steve_Lovett]

As for the busting at the seems comment, kind of irresponsible to say when Nocatee and Durbin Crossing are blowing it out of the water.

Seam : a line, groove, or ridge formed by the abutment of edges.

The edges (native forests to developed area) of the community have remained static for years, virtually all of the growth, infrastructure, parks, roads, and new houses has sprung to life in the last few months. Thus the 'edges' or 'seams' of the community have been broached by a new frenzy of development.

burst:
1. a. To come open or fly apart suddenly or violently, especially from internal pressure.
b. To explode.
2. To be or seem to be full to the point of breaking open

You can attempt to spin it however you want, but the literal definition of the phrase is "to be filled to or beyond normal capacity".

The front page also says, "suddenly bursting from it's boundaries in a rapid and rather massive building boom". That actually implies that growth is spilling over outside of its boundaries.

I don't think anyone here is rooting for RiverTown to fail, but many are pointing out that this is essentially a fluff piece not exactly grounded in reality. If you want to give an accurate look at how quickly RiverTown is growing, try analyzing building permits there compared to Nocatee, Durbin Crossing, Palencia, and other master planned communities in SJC.

It's worth noting that any/all sales activity has occurred without a project entry in place, and with amenities only completed since early summer. The other communities have been around far longer, and most are more "conventional" communities planned/built for bulk land sales and development speed first and foremost.

The development has been sitting idle for years.  Once the infrastructure was in place there was no demand for the homes so it sat (and silted into the river).  That's the reason it is "behind" the other developments in the area.  I really don't think you can' recreate "old Florida".

It's more than that, actually.

The "old" vision for RiverTown was based around a faux-nostalgic "urban" village in a rural portion of St Johns County. Development began around that vision - mostly including major off-site transportation improvements and the start/infrastructure/utilities of the urban Town Center neighborhood. State Road 13 is a high-speed roadway in that location and it separated the proposed Town Center from the river and riverfront park. The planning approach was a beautiful highly-prescribed tour d'force of New Urbanism - totally out of place with respect to the site's history, existing character, culture, context, and natural environment. And totally inflexible to adapt to potential changes to the economy or market.

When the economy collapsed in 2007, '08, '09, etc. the legacy of the project was hundreds of acres of magnificent natural environment that had been blitzed-and-cleared - and a development plan that seemed out of place and that was no longer relevant to the market.

I agree that you can't completely create "old Florida" - but the project should celebrate the intrinsic cultural, social, and natural character of a place/region and the current iteration does a better job of this while at the same time meeting the needs of builders and adapting to a new price-sensitive market. 

[Ocklawaha]

Probably not, but it's the closest thing to a Disney like recreation of the real thing that I've seen in this area.

I actually don't hate Rivertown, Julington Plantation, WGV, Bartram, Palencia or Nocatee, all of them appeal to a particular market segment that Jacksonville doesn't really offer anywhere else. The time is coming when we'll see a flurry of community incorporations and it's interesting to speculate on which will pull the trigger first and how much real estate it will involve.

As for the 'back door' to Rivertown, I was going over their plans and it appears they plan to do a Palencia/Tapestry type central business district between SR-13 and the Amenity Center.

Access to 210 would absolutely change the face of the community and those connecting roads are not far from reality.

I am rather fascinated by the extensive trail system and the USEABLE amount of natural area's that will be connected to the trail system. I live just up the road from Rivertown and the trails have already been put to good use, the little guy on the dock in that photo is my 'mini-me,' grandson, also named Robert.

[cline]

The planning approach was a beautiful highly-prescribed tour d'force of New Urbanism - totally out of place with respect to the site's history, existing character, culture, context, and natural environment. And totally inflexible to adapt to potential changes to the economy or market.

When the economy collapsed in 2007, '08, '09, etc. the legacy of the project was hundreds of acres of magnificent natural environment that had been blitzed-and-cleared - and a development plan that seemed out of place and that was no longer relevant to the market.

I do agree with you Steve.  I guess that's my real issue with this sort of development that is becoming more prevalent throughout the state.  Developers are offering these developments that are billed as "work, live, play" and "respecting the natural environment" and all of those buzz words people like to hear.  The problem is that these developments are being built in the middle of nowhere and many of them are being built on some very sensitive environmental lands.  Now, there are many reasons for this (most of them lie at the feet of our elected officials).  We basically incentivize developers to do these things.  We make it cheaper for them to build on these lands than redevelopment within our City-which has areas that desperately need it.  The plans are basically rubber stamped by development review boards, SJRWMD et. al.  All in the name of jobs mind you.  We wouldn't dare stop anything that might hinder growth aka. jobs.  Of course, these jobs could also be created in other ways that have a less devastating effect on our environment and infrastructure.  As has been repeated ad nauseum on this website, all this new development requires roads and other infrastructure that were not needed before.  And while these developers may pick up some of the tab, you can bet it is not the true cost.  You and I and everyone else will pick up the rest.  Meanwhile, other areas of our city rot away and our schools become eroded.  The unfortunate thing is, I don't see any of this changing.  These developers and land owners have enough money and power to buy off and/or influence any decision maker they want.  The rest of us be damned.  Just look at the Outer Beltway and the alignment and look at the handful of landowners that own land where the alignment is.  They're set to make a killing and you can bet they had a hand in railroading this unneeded boondoggle through.  Of course, if you ask the Clay County Board of Commissioners they'll repeat the JOBS! mantra over and over but we all know the real reason.  $$

[peestandingup]

Of course. A lot of "new Florida's" economy pretty much depends on this type of expansion & they simply don't know anything else. Even though there's a mile long foreclosure glut that'll take a decade to get through, urban core areas need redeveloped, we need a transit system, & the economy is limping along, they'll "put people back to work" with this type of same old bullshit.