Author Topic: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History  (Read 28999 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« on: October 13, 2012, 03:20:08 AM »
The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History



The rising and sinking of The Maple Leaf  and its significance at MOSH's Currents of Time exhibit.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-oct-the-maple-leaf-at-the-museum-of-science-and-history

Adam W

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2012, 06:55:17 AM »
Looks like an interesting exhibit. I had never heard of the Maple Leaf before, so it's news to me! It's crazy to think the wreckage is down there still.

On a side note, the St Johns is not one of a few rivers in the US that flows northward - that's a commonly-repeated falsehood.*

*depending on your definition of the word "few."
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 07:19:06 AM by Adam W »

fieldafm

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2012, 07:52:41 AM »
The Jax Historical Society had a presentation about the Maple Leaf at an assembly in my school when I was maybe in fifth grade.  It was from then on that I became fascinated with Jacksonville.  All the history you read about that happened in all these other places suddenly became very localized.  I am still amazed to this day how much history is hidden deep in the story book of Jacksonville. 

This is one of the reasons Ennis, Wayne Wood and Jeanmarie Grimsley and I started Jax Pop Up History.  Facebook.com/JaxPopUpHistory

Thanks for highlighting this in the weekend edition

coredumped

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 10:54:57 AM »
Some further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_%28shipwreck%29

According to that wiki, it was "the first torpedo casualty of the War." (American Civil War)
Jags season ticket holder.

Adam W

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 12:35:24 PM »
Some further reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_%28shipwreck%29

According to that wiki, it was "the first torpedo casualty of the War." (American Civil War)

That's amazing. I really can't believe we didn't learn about this in my school. Or schools. Any of them!

Ocklawaha

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2012, 02:18:15 PM »
Actually the U.S.S. Maple Leaf, is nowhere near the "first ship sunk" by a Confederate torpedo. As an example The USS Cairo was sunk by a Confederate torpedo (mine) on December 12, 1862, in the Yazoo River, Mississippi. The Confederate's had perfected several types of torpedoes, including a spar torpedo that could be sent into the side of a ship. Others were closer to what we call mines in modern warfare. The St. Johns was heavily mined off of Yellow Bluff, the mouth of the Ortega and Point Mandarin.

Roving bands of hard riding, hell raising, Confederate Cavalry, including units of "flying artillery" kept the bulk of the Federal Army out of the interior. As a result of their efforts, and the absolute insubordinate behavior of the Federal Commander at Olustee, Tallahassee was the only Confederate Capital not in Federal hands at the end of the war.

I should note that two other battles kept the Federals out of Tallahassee, one led by an extreme racist FEDERAL general ended with him badly wounded at Marianna. The other battle at the "Natural Bridge," where Federal General Newton, badly underestimated the resolve of Southern troops under General's Sam Jones and William Miller. Trying to cross the St. Marks River under a hail of bullets from entrenched troops proved to be utterly suicidal.

The other was The Battle of Marianna, where a rabid racist Federal General Alexander Asboth, squared off against a quickly assembled force of local children, farmers and convalescent soldiers.  On September 27, 1864, Union troops eventually overran the town, but General Asboth was shot in the face and badly wounded. On learning of Colonel Scott's Confederate Cavalry's arrival east of town, Asboth withdrew to Pensacola, but not before confining Confederate prisoners to several buildings which were then burnt to the ground.

So what came of some of the more notorious characters? Jessie and Frank James, The Younger Brothers and the Daltons continued to carry the war to the Yankee's. Closer to home, Doc Holiday spent much of his early years between Valdosta and Jacksonville, he lived in Valdosta but his father shipped goods to and from Jacksonville's port.

John Wesley Hardin, perhaps the most deadly gunman of them all owned and operated a butcher shop (of all things) right here in Jacksonville. In fact when the federal boys came looking for him, our sheriff (keep in mind the police force at the time was primarily African American) hid him and then assisted him in being spirited out of town.

There were also many other boats and ships lost in area rivers and Florida waters.

The War of Yankee Aggression was no where near as Black and While as your history professors told you it was.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 02:25:58 PM by Ocklawaha »

Adam W

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 02:38:24 PM »
It's idiotic to call the civil war the war of yankee aggression. Sorry.

Bringing up stuff like that just detracts from this story.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 03:01:00 PM by Adam W »

Ocklawaha

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 07:08:17 PM »
Sorry to play the "idiot" here Adam, but a 'Civil War,' is defined as: a war between political factions or regions within the same country. Since the South had it's own government, completely separated from the government of the North, the term doesn't apply. Lincoln's vague declaration of war which read in part: "WHEREAS the laws of the United States have been, for some time past, and now are opposed, and the execution thereof obstructed, in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by law." This is comical in and of itself as Lincoln knew that the US Supreme Court could and would call his entire war against "states" illegal. What does that leave you with? A War of Yankee Aggression, like it or not.

Tacachale

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 09:25:06 PM »
Ock, I don't think you're being an idiot. I think you're being quaint, folksy, and informative, God love you.

Regardless, you remain, of course, dead wrong. :D

The Civil War was a civil war because it was fought between two organized factions within what had previously been, and would ultimately remain, a single nation: the United States and its government, versus the secessionist CSA. This is what "civil war" means. No other sovereign nation ever recognized the legitimacy of the CSA, which seriously undermines any claim that it was a real country and not just a rebel force.

Lincoln and the U.S government were well within their duty to use state and federal troops and resources to protect United States law and property. There were multiple precedents for such actions, which were in fact necessitated in this case when insurrectionists began attacking Fort Sumter.

Getting back to local history for a spell, I'm happy to say that many Jaxons and other East Floridians, including many prominent citizens, were among the brave Southern Unionists opposing the insurrection, and that the city was held by Union forces for much of the war.

I've also never heard that General Asboth was a "virulent racist", at least not more so than other whites of the time. In fact, he commanded many black troops in his regiment, as well as white Floridian defectors. And I'm pretty skeptical that he murdered any captives. What I have heard, however, is he was regarded as a freedom fighter among his fellow Hungarians and Hungarian Americans, and that he offered protection to hundreds of brave Southerners, both black and white, who risked their lives at the hands of Confederate troops and "conscription parties" to reach the safety of federal lines, and who then joined in the effort to end this ugly chapter in American history.
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Ocklawaha

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2012, 12:45:24 AM »
But of course dear Tacachale, and I totally disagree.

Ock, I don't think you're being an idiot. I think you're being quaint, folksy, and informative, God love you.

Regardless, you remain, of course, dead wrong. :D

The Civil War was a civil war because it was fought between two organized factions within what had previously been, and would ultimately remain, a single nation: the United States and its government, versus the secessionist CSA. This is what "civil war" means. No other sovereign nation ever recognized the legitimacy of the CSA, which seriously undermines any claim that it was a real country and not just a rebel force.

So you would side with Lincoln's claim that the South never left the Union?

Quote
Lincoln and the U.S government were well within their duty to use state and federal troops and resources to protect United States law and property. There were multiple precedents for such actions, which were in fact necessitated in this case when insurrectionists began attacking Fort Sumter.

I don't believe they were, fact is they had moved troops onto Southern soil prior to Fort Sumpter. They also had a large flotilla of ships ready to sail for either Fort Sumpter, or it was believed Fort Pickens. (Pensacola for you by-standers) The claims that the South started the fight at Fort Sumpter is an American Myth, almost as large as 'Lincoln The Great Emancipator.'

The various states outside of the original 13 Colonies created the 'Union,' as such it was a Union of choice and the Federal Government thus became the agent of the states, with the states remaining as the principals. This didn't end with the Articles of Confederation, and as a principal it makes little sense that the states could rebel against their agent. The South followed the intent if not the letter of the law. Charges were dropped against the Southern leadership after the war when it became known that the Supreme Court would find in favor of the South.

Quote
Getting back to local history for a spell, I'm happy to say that many Jaxons and other East Floridians, including many prominent citizens, were among the brave Southern Unionists opposing the insurrection, and that the city was held by Union forces for much of the war.

True enough, and for their loyalty, the city was sacked and burned several times.

Quote
I've also never heard that General Asboth was a "virulent racist", at least not more so than other whites of the time. In fact, he commanded many black troops in his regiment, as well as white Floridian defectors. And I'm pretty skeptical that he murdered any captives. What I have heard, however, is he was regarded as a freedom fighter among his fellow Hungarians and Hungarian Americans, and that he offered protection to hundreds of brave Southerners, both black and white, who risked their lives at the hands of Confederate troops and "conscription parties" to reach the safety of federal lines, and who then joined in the effort to end this ugly chapter in American history.

The case history of Asboth as a rather cruel and ardent racist are found in the accounts of his march on Marianna and in the returns he filed from Pensacola. I'd be most happy to supply you with the referencers at a future date if you would like.

DEO VINDICE!  ;)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 01:08:52 AM by Ocklawaha »

Bativac

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 01:00:54 AM »
On a side note, the St Johns is not one of a few rivers in the US that flows northward - that's a commonly-repeated falsehood.*

Could you elaborate on this? I was taught in school that the river flows north, and every single source I checked (including with the St Johns River Water Management District) indicates the river flows north. So what's the real story??

Ocklawaha

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2012, 01:10:22 AM »
It does flow north, but the old myth that only the St. Johns and the Nile flow north just isn't true. Rivers flow northward into the sea on virtually every continent.

Tacachale

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 02:06:18 AM »
I would be most happy to read more about General Asboth. The closest I can find regarding his views on slavery is his upholding the orders of the army, in the days before emancipation became part of the national platform, not to allow fugitive slaves into Union camps in Missouri, but rather allow civil authorities to determine what to do with them. While Asboth was willing to accept this order, he sent to his superior a letter from one of his men expressing serious concerns with it, as the army had no way of telling who was free and who was a slave, and allowing a free person to be enslaved was unacceptable (his superior agreed). After emancipation, of course, Asboth did accept and recruit fugitive slaves - or rather, naturally free men and women who had been unnaturally enslaved.

For his own part, Asboth didn't think much of the Confederates he faced in Florida, who were willing to assault and even murder Unionists and defectors trying to reach him in the Panhandle. His accounts speak of one woman and her children who were brutally murdered by Confederates for refusing to give up the whereabouts of her Unionist husband. (from Tracy Revels' Grander In Her Daughters, p. 80).


So you would side with Lincoln's claim that the South never left the Union?


Yes, that's what I think. Philosophically, I don't think the Southern states had any legal right to leave the United States after they had accepted the Constitution as the law of the land. More practically, I believe the Confederate government were basically a rebelling force which was ultimately stopped before ever being recognized by any other country.


Lincoln and the U.S government were well within their duty to use state and federal troops and resources to protect United States law and property. There were multiple precedents for such actions, which were in fact necessitated in this case when insurrectionists began attacking Fort Sumter.

I don't believe they were, fact is they had moved troops onto Southern soil prior to Fort Sumpter. They also had a large flotilla of ships ready to sail for either Fort Sumpter, or it was believed Fort Pickens. (Pensacola for you by-standers) The claims that the South started the fight at Fort Sumpter is an American Myth, almost as large as 'Lincoln The Great Emancipator.'

The various states outside of the original 13 Colonies created the 'Union,' as such it was a Union of choice and the Federal Government thus became the agent of the states, with the states remaining as the principals. This didn't end with the Articles of Confederation, and as a principal it makes little sense that the states could rebel against their agent. The South followed the intent if not the letter of the law. Charges were dropped against the Southern leadership after the war when it became known that the Supreme Court would find in favor of the South.


That was the Confederate line, but it's not particularly convincing. In signing the Constitution, the states had already submitted themselves to a power sharing compact in which they accepted federal authority and law. In fact, that's really what they were afraid of - that Lincoln would legally restrict the expansion of slavery, which would ultimately result in its demise. Turns out that he did more than that.


Getting back to local history for a spell, I'm happy to say that many Jaxons and other East Floridians, including many prominent citizens, were among the brave Southern Unionists opposing the insurrection, and that the city was held by Union forces for much of the war.

True enough, and for their loyalty, the city was sacked and burned several times.

And many people were freed. Indeed, after the final *liberation* of Jacksonville by Union troops, the city became an outright haven for Unionists, white and black. To this day we have one of the largest and most vibrant African American communities of any city in the state.



DEO VINDICE!  ;)

Down with the traitor, up with the Star!
Do you believe that when the blue jay or another bird sings and the body is trembling, that is a signal that people are coming or something important is about to happen?

Adam W

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2012, 04:29:11 AM »
It does flow north, but the old myth that only the St. Johns and the Nile flow north just isn't true. Rivers flow northward into the sea on virtually every continent.

Well done! It goes to show how a little time and editing can go a long way. I should've stressed the issue was not the fact that it flowed north, but rather the assertion that it was one of only a few rivers in North America or the USA to do so.

There are many rivers in North America and the USA that flow northward. Ock responded in kind.

Thanks for keeping me honest  ;)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 04:31:00 AM by Adam W »

Adam W

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Re: The Maple Leaf at the Museum of Science and History
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2012, 05:11:41 AM »
Sorry to play the "idiot" here Adam, but a 'Civil War,' is defined as: a war between political factions or regions within the same country. Since the South had it's own government, completely separated from the government of the North, the term doesn't apply. Lincoln's vague declaration of war which read in part: "WHEREAS the laws of the United States have been, for some time past, and now are opposed, and the execution thereof obstructed, in the States of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by law." This is comical in and of itself as Lincoln knew that the US Supreme Court could and would call his entire war against "states" illegal. What does that leave you with? A War of Yankee Aggression, like it or not.

Ock, perhaps my choice of words was a bit harsh, but I didn't mean to imply you were an idiot. I do think all of that stuff is idiotic, though.

I obviously disagree with the notion that the Civil War wasn't a civil war - but I think it's all academic now anyway.

What I do find interesting or important, however, is the bits of history that we don't necessarily remember or know all that well - stuff like the Maple Leaf. So this thread was quite informative. As I mentioned earlier, it was all news to me.

All that stuff about the first torpedo or whatever was news to me as well - so I appreciated you clarifying that it wasn't necessarily true at all.

I didn't think the other stuff was germane to the thread and I thought it just took us off topic - hardly a first on this or any other forum (and something I've been a party to on numerous occasions myself).