Author Topic: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.  (Read 48272 times)

fsquid

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2012, 09:26:56 AM »
Boise is a great city.  Most of the growth seems to be coming from the Mormon church, but I've had fun when going out there on business.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2012, 10:07:14 AM »
^^^Thanks for being cordial as always Lake (some people would rather bite my head off LOL) One question, what's an example of another city with a Jacksonville-esque downtown residential population that has a successful streetcar?

Depending on your definition of downtown, New Orleans. The CBD has 2,060 residents, throw in the French Quarter and it's 5,948. Jacksonville Downtown (32202) has 6,374.

New Orleans fairly recently suffered through an urban renewal plan called 'KATRINA.' Anyone who has visited since the storm is probably still in shock over the miles and miles of completely cleared land with nothing but foundations or slabs visible.

Little Rock came up with a plan in 2009 to create a fixed transit system and improve downtown living conditions through what could only be described as a 'remake'. Before the streetcar and streetscape the population of downtown was 3,000 mostly impoverished citizens. Today, the downtown sparkles with 11,002 persons living, working, playing in a dynamic and beautiful urban core.

The LDS population of Boise is 15%, however the Mormon church dominates the governments of Utah, Arizona, Idaho and eastern Oregon.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 10:17:21 AM by Ocklawaha »

JFman00

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2012, 10:37:52 AM »
Katrina may have devastated the Lower 9th and New Orleans East, but the urban neighborhoods (CBD, Warehouse District, Uptown) are experiencing a renaissance even by pre-storm standards.

The Loyola Ave streetcar expansion (connecting the Amtrak/Greyhound station to the streetcar network) is well underway, and the likelihood of the South Market District project coming to fruition increases every day (tax breaks are making their way through the system)


fieldafm

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2012, 11:16:00 AM »
Boise is nice, definately not what you consider when you think 'Idaho'.  I enjoyed several trips there.  They actually have a really nice cluster of tech jobs there (due to the University).  My sister lived in Sandpoint for awhile (which is basically in b/w Boise and Seattle).

I'd never leave Jacksonville for Boise(or even seriously consider it), but Lake makes a good point..

Places like this are pretty much why I turn a deaf ear to local naysayers when talking about Jax's potential.

BackinJax05

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2012, 11:32:42 AM »
^lol, it's crazy.  The first phase of the Outer Beltway costs several times more than the skyway everyone calls a boondoggle and will lose more money annually.  Round up the +$400 million that's being tossed between Blanding and I-10 and you could literally build out a comprehensive rapid transit system for the preconsolidated city.

Hell, with all that money a transit system could be built out to Lake City, Fernandina Beach, St. Augustine, Palatka, & Starke.

tufsu1

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2012, 11:38:02 AM »
^ not hardly.....commuter rail is going to cost in the range fo $10 million per mile...and even a simple BRT system would likely cost $1-2 million per mile

BackinJax05

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2012, 11:43:03 AM »
^^ I know. I was exaggerating. Still, I think the outer beltway is a waste of money. If Clay & St. Johns want it so badly, let them pay for it themselves.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2012, 12:18:13 PM »
^ not hardly.....commuter rail is going to cost in the range fo $10 million per mile...and even a simple BRT system would likely cost $1-2 million per mile

Well, Memphis DID build a streetcar system for $2-$5 million per mile, so if we didn't stack many millions on for streetscape and renewal of other infrastructure, we could keep it quite low. (But then Memphis didn't have to bridge the 'Nile' as JTA officers said about Long Branch Creek) Remember that many modern streetcars are using cantenary and pantographs or bow collectors, actually Memphis does too, and could have saved a bunch going with a simple span wire and trolley poles instead.

JTA'S BRT is more of a streetscape with a frequent bus then it is 'Light-Rail-Lite' Bus Rapid Transit. So again, we are talking about nicer bus stops, some signal priority, GPS, and paint on the road, that's a LONG WAY from LRL-BRT where we'd have dedicated exclusive busways and lanes, automated docking and much higher speeds. I support the Broad/Jefferson BRT route, all the way to 8Th Street, between 8Th and Norwood, I'd like to see exclusive lanes on Pearl. A short Busway, with railroad tracks in it or alongside, between 14Th and Main and 13Th and Moncrief, would do much to streamline our Northside transit.



Streetcar sharing exclusive lanes on Broad and Jefferson, would be a great way to feed a bi-directional Duval Street Line. As you can see, they do it in DC.

Commuter Rail, should be able to be done for less then $10 million per mile, but then I'm talking remanufactured Budd RDC cars, and short concrete platforms with bus shelters on them...

Debbie Thompson

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2012, 12:54:41 PM »
Overnight I-10 East?  It's been more like 40-50 years we've been waiting for a downtown effort that made sense.

avonjax

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2012, 01:13:00 PM »
Seriously though, I know that there are alot of smart people here; I don't hardly ever hear anyone talking about adding residential downtown, it's always things like Starbucks, streetcar, etc. We tried to add some Starbucks downtown, and they flopped. I rather not have an IMAX in DT the rest of this decade, then to put one in there right now, and it closes in two years. To tell you the truth, I'm not convinced that streetcar will instantly be the cure all for downtown Jax, but if we must have it, I rather wait ten to fifteen years to build up downtown infrastructure before even considering something like that. We don't hardly have anyone living there, but yet everyone wants to make DT a mini Manhattan overnight. That's counting the chicken before the egg hatch. We have enough 'spur of the moment' urban infrastructure that didn't go according to plan *cough cough ASE* Just my two.
Forgive me but we have been saying things like this for the last 30 years. And if we continue to wait it WILL NEVER happen.

tufsu1

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2012, 01:32:08 PM »
Well, Memphis DID build a streetcar system for $2-$5 million per mile

well that's far below the industry standard

fsujax

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2012, 01:35:31 PM »
you can always find ways to build things on the cheap, but sometimes there are just circumstances that happen once in a lifetime like Nashville's Music City Star commuter rail $4 million a mile project.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2012, 01:47:24 PM by fsujax »

thelakelander

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2012, 01:43:05 PM »
MATA Trolley/Memphis Streetcar:

Main Street Line - 5 track miles
Capital cost:  $34.9 million
Per track mile:  $7.0 million

Riverfront Line - 2 track miles
Capital cost:  $9.4 million
Per track mile:  $4.7 million (utilized existing rail corridor)

Madison Avenue Line – 5 track miles
Capital cost:  $60 million
Per track mile:  $12.0 million

Operating budget:  $3.9 million (FY 2005)

http://www.fortworthgov.com/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf

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thelakelander

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2012, 02:13:50 PM »
^It wasn't as low per mile as Ock posted (Dallas' M-Line streetcar was that low) but it was still below industry averages (probably around $15-$20 million these days). The MATA Trolley's implementation cost were low because it was built as a "no frills" system.  It's amazing how the costs of these things drop once you remove the road streetscaping costs that are typically thrown in with these projects. 

Another big money saver was going with heritage cars over modern cars.  As Ock has stated many times through out the years, a modern car can cost more than three times the cost of a heritage car.  When you're purchasing multiple orders of rolling stock, that quickly adds up.
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Ocklawaha

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Re: Another City Goes Streetcar, Jacksonville Slips Behind.
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2012, 05:09:05 PM »
The original 2.5 mile line had a total cost, including the streetcars themselves, of $34,887,072, or a somewhat high $14 million per mile. However, almost half of this cost—$15,834,000—was for improvements to the pedestrian mall. The second 2.5 mile line, which completed the loop, cost just $9,428,860, or $3.8 million per mile. I believe I said $2-$5 million per mile, $3.8 is pretty much within that window.Why the big difference? As noted, the cost of the initial line included extensive repairs to the mall itself, plus construction of a new operations and maintenance facility and a great deal of utility relocation.

San Pedro, California, a 1.5 mile line that recreates the old Pacific Electric “Red Cars” for $4 million per mile, including three streetcars, one Vintage and two Heritage

Quote
The authors of this paper both recall vividly an incident all too typical in overbuilding. When Cleveland’s fine old Shaker Rapid line was rebuilt, the cost was more than $100 million, and the result was slower trains running on less frequent schedules. When someone asked the local U.S. Representative about the outrage, the reply was, “Why not? It’s free money,” meaning Federal funds. Bah! Humbug! Where's our old friend Mr. Scrooge when the taxpayer needs him?

Currently, the Federal Transit Administration's process for giving new rail proposals a recommended or “not recommended” rating is based too heavily on ridership forecasts. We strongly suggest it should also include a base line “should cost” figure of not more than $20 million per mile for Light Rail and $10 million per mile for streetcars (a similar “should-cost” figure should be set for urban highway construction). Exceptions should be granted, but only when circumstances such as the need to tunnel through a mountain or other unavoidable local conditions clearly justify them.
SOURCE: APTA Heritage Streetcar Page

The FACT is, trolley museum's all around the world, regularly build, operate and maintain streetcar lines for a fraction of the 'normal' costs. I say we take a page from this and launch with a huge volunteer program. SEE: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-aug-the-electric-7-a-streetcar-proposal-on-a-shoestring

Then there is this little jewel, found in a study just released (June 2012) for yet another city in our neighborhood which has solid plans for streetcars. Welcome to the pack MACON, we'll salute as you race past us.