Where are the Malls?

[Ocklawaha]

For all of the talk about St. Johns Town Center, and the River City Marketplace, Jacksonville has to be about the worst place I have ever been for shopping malls. Most Cities have a host of new ENCLOSED, air-conditioned or heated shopping malls, urban or suburban. Sure the town center idea is cute and looks great in Oregon or Vermont where the weather is most likely cool even in the summertime.

Once again, our City seems to have all of it's eggs in one (or two) baskets. The Westside is booming, yet there is not a single decent mall in the whole of the region since Normandy, back in the 1960's. Gateway is nice, but REALLY showing it's age and needs to be replaced by new construction perhaps North of the Trout River or West of the current location. Regency Mall, OMG, that was "new" when I was a child, and THAT was millions and millions of years ago... Ditto for Orange Park, old and out of date. Roosevelt is gone, rolled over into a outdoor town center. The Avenues, is nice, but already dated and rather smallish for a City of our size.

The choice of retailers sucks too. The big name stores have avoided us like we all have a social disease. Sak's, Nordstroms or Ikea all have "reasons" why they are not in Jacksonville. Sorry reasons too. Doesn't the Chamber of Commerce go out and recruit anyone? Why are we not knocking on these doors? The people with the big bucks that could relocate here, jump right on by partly because we have Mayberry Shopping Centers with a modern urban population.

Just look at the holes in our shopping map, Beaches (Fernandina to Ponte Vedra), Northside (Busch?) , Westside (from Ortega/Riverside-to-Cecil Field), Northwest (from gateway to Callahan), Mandarin (all the way to Palatka), OP-Middleburg-Flemming Island, Southside-Nocatee-St. Augustine... Without a trolley line or some form of transit, without at least covered walks, St. Johns Town Center was more torture then shopping pleasure back in August. Walking out of a store was glaring and like getting smacked in the face with a hot wet bath towel.

I think we can do much better then this. When people ask me where we shop I have to confess it's Jacksonville, we have Winn Dixie, Publix, Walgreens, and Lowes... then theres Winn Dixie, and Lowes, and Publix, did I mention Walgreens? What about Winn Dixie?

Ocklawaha

[vicupstate]

Enclosed malls are going the way of the dinoseur from what I can tell.  I wouldn't expect any new ones anywhere except mega-sprawling suburbs.

[second_pancake]

I'm starting a petition....BRING IKEA TO JACKSONVILLE!!!!!!!!!!!  Let me tell you.  I have never stepped foot into one of these stores.  I discovered them by researching retailers in an interior design magazine and have been hooked ever since, but the mail order prices are freaking outrageous and not everything you see in the catalog or online is available for shipping.  It really sucks.  I once priced a shipment for a table to be more than the cost of the table itself.  It made more sense to drive to Atlanta to pick it up then it did to have it shipped.

And forget the Winn-Dixies and Publix, what ever happened to Harris Teeter?  You remember when they were the next big thing....opened in Amelia Island and Ponte Vedra.  Where are they now?  No more new stores, just those.  Where are the Whole Foods stores?  I think I heard of one coming to town...in an area with a median income of over $80k per anum   Hey, average people want healthy food too, ya know?  Where's our freakin culture???  ~sighs~

[thelakelander]

Harris Teeter could not compete against Publix.  The Amelia Island location may be still open, but the others aren't.  The Ponte Vedra store closed a few years back in is now a Fresh Market and San Jose location is now a Publix. 

As for IKEA, they now have stores in Fort Lauderdale and Orlando with another under construction in Ybor City (Tampa).

[Charleston native]

Vic, I think it's too early to tell if enclosed malls will indeed be an extinct species. Outdoor town centers have the appeal of newness and cleanliness for shoppers, but they really have not adequately replaced indoor malls. Many people, myself and my wife included, prefer enclosed malls because they isolate shoppers from the elements. Take, for instance, the Southpark Mall in Charlotte. This is a shopping center I could see The Avenues becoming, if management did things properly. It has mostly upper-class stores and dining, has a parking garage for most of its parking, and has sidewalks while surrounded by churches, apartments, and office buildings. It is the suburban mall in the urban environment, allowing shoppers the conveniences without having to deal with snow, rain, or wind. More importantly, it is a greatly viable retail center of the southeast region of Charlotte, despite being a mall.

Outdoor centers can be better shopping centers for warmer areas like Florida, Arizona, and California. In those states, I can see malls becoming less relevant. However, Florida has its rainy seasons, and I'm sure the millions of people down there would prefer to shop or dine without having to brave storms with an umbrella and galoshes.

Ock, I think its a matter of mall management making the investments to renovate and revitalize their shopping centers. Some of these offices are just content to be the landlord, taking money from the businesses that sign their lease. I would pressure some of Jax's malls offices to improve their image...if a mall looks newer and cleaner, more people will be attracted to go to it.

[second_pancake]

Harris Teeter could not compete against Publix.  The Amelia Island location may be still open, but the others aren't.  The Ponte Vedra store closed a few years back in is now a Fresh Market and San Jose location is now a Publix. 

As for IKEA, they now have stores in Fort Lauderdale and Orlando with another under construction in Ybor City (Tampa).

Huh, I didn't even know there was ever one in San Jose.  Go figure.

Ok, don't get my hopes up now...Orlando???   As in, 2 hours away, Orlando???

[thelakelander]

As in, 2 hours away, Orlando???

Yes.  I stopped in it last November.

http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/IkeaNearYouView?storeId=12&catalogId=11001&langId=-1&StoreName=orlando

[vicupstate]

Vic, I think it's too early to tell if enclosed malls will indeed be an extinct species. Outdoor town centers have the appeal of newness and cleanliness for shoppers, but they really have not adequately replaced indoor malls. Many people, myself and my wife included, prefer enclosed malls because they isolate shoppers from the elements. Take, for instance, the Southpark Mall in Charlotte. This is a shopping center I could see The Avenues becoming, if management did things properly. It has mostly upper-class stores and dining, has a parking garage for most of its parking, and has sidewalks while surrounded by churches, apartments, and office buildings. It is the suburban mall in the urban environment, allowing shoppers the conveniences without having to deal with snow, rain, or wind. More importantly, it is a greatly viable retail center of the southeast region of Charlotte, despite being a mall.

Jax has not yet reached the demographic makeup to snag a Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus and Lord & Taylor like SouthPark.  Besides St. John's Town center has already been positioned for upscale shopping, so they would go there instead of Avenues. 

[copperfiend]

As in, 2 hours away, Orlando???

Yes.  I stopped in it last November.

http://www.ikea.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/IkeaNearYouView?storeId=12&catalogId=11001&langId=-1&StoreName=orlando

I didn't realize it had opened yet. Last time I drove by the site, they had just started building. That went up quick. I have been to locations in Atlanta and N Virginia. There are impressive.

[Ocklawaha]

Without a trolley line or some form of transit, without at least covered walks, St. Johns Town Center was more torture then shopping pleasure back in August. Walking out of a store was glaring and like getting smacked in the face with a hot wet bath towel.

I think this alone will spell a short life for the Town Centers, they will need to figure a way to:

1. Keep me comfortable while I explore
2. Keep me dry
3. Keep my cool
4. Keep me warm in the Winter

They'll need either the mothers of all awnings or Transit, or BOTH. Otherwise, a trip or two is about all it will take for me to Join Charleston Native and others down in the AC... As for enclosed malls, there are dozens of them underconstruction all over the country. Florida is just too Damned hot and humid not to enclose the malls.

The original ROOSEVELT design was semi-enclosed, the ceiling had large palms and other trees, and a sculpture that went right up through holes in the roof. the shade area was massive and a cooling breeze seemed to work pretty well. It wasn't fully enlosed until much later. Now the whole area of town is without real quality shopping. [/color][/b]

Ocklawaha

[adamh0903]

Maybe its Generational  but I dont have a problem with SJTC and I have been there in just about every weather condition, except rain. Who wants to get out in the rain anyway?

[Charleston native]

Jax has not yet reached the demographic makeup to snag a Nordstrom, Neiman Marcus and Lord & Taylor like SouthPark.  Besides St. John's Town center has already been positioned for upscale shopping, so they would go there instead of Avenues.

Actually, I was just going to say that SJTC has really positioned itself to be the upscale destination for Jax, unfortunately. I'm surprised that Jax does not have the demographic makeup, with such a high average salary.

Ock, that list you made pretty much sums up why lifestyle centers are going to be just a new urbanism fad. However, I think Jax has excellent quality shopping in comparison to my current city of residence and to many others in the Southeast.

[fsujax]

I really don't care if another mall is built here or not. I wish more of this upscale retail focus was centered on Downtown.  Until we get something like a major department store anchor Downtown, who cares about another mall.  I do happen to like the SJTC, even if it's a glorified strip mall.

Jacksonville does have the demographics to support those high end stores.  If Charleston, SC has the demographics to support a high end department store, then how can anyone say Jacksonville doesn't? There are so many upsclae neighborhoods here with incomes well over 80k a year. I think it has more to do with marketing and selling the city/region to these high end retailers than us not having the demographics.

[tufsu1]

I agree with Vic...the indoor mall is a dying breed....at least for now....recent research shows that there are fewer than 10 planned or under construction nationally right now

[Charleston native]

I agree with Vic...the indoor mall is a dying breed....at least for now....recent research shows that there are fewer than 10 planned or under construction nationally right now

Maybe the trend has slowed down in new construction of malls, but that can be attributed to the building fad of outdoor lifestyle centers that SJTC is. I'd be interested in seeing numbers on mall renovations, and I'd be willing to bet that there's a much higher number of those. When you have a large, established indoor facility, money can be saved on refurbishment rather than building more.

FSUJax, the only reason Chas is able to have high-end stores like Saks and Gucci is the fact that Chas is a major tourist destination in SC. It is SC's equivalent of Orlando or Miami, albeit smaller. Therefore, shopping demographics are  skewed, and while Jax does have some tourism, it pales in comparison. However, I do agree with you in that Jax should have the residential demographics to counter the offset in tourism dollars. The money and opportunity are there in the city; those are some of the reasons that I want to move there. I've said it before, mall management seems to be the culprit with lacking upscale stores.