Amtrak: Flagler Line Will Happen

[JeffreyS]

So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....

that isn't going to happen as long as the Prime is still used as a convention center.

That is what we need to change.  Jax Terminal should be a multi use facility.  I bet if we did combine the uses that you might see more movement on getting a new Convention center.

[thelakelander]

Unfortunately Brown appears to be getting pulled in two directions here. On the one hand he's committed to his campaign promise of downtown development; getting Amtrack downtown and building a transportation center online may well help with that. However, on the other, he's hearing that this transit center will be an expensive boondoggle (sometimes combined with the theme that any government spending is bad, and that the COJ is virtually incapable of doing anything right).

For the mayor to get behind this, he and his administration need to hear the fair truth. They needs to understand that (1) the transit center is good and would be a benefit to downtown development, but (2) that the current design needs to be tweaked to consolidate it and reduce the cost.

We also need to recognize how big the EverBank deal played in the ultimate decision to move Greyhound as soon as possible.

Unfortunately, I fear the JRTC will be an expensive boondoggle in its current state.  However, getting Amtrak back downtown doesn't necessarily mean having to build what has been proposed in the JRTC plan.  Nevertheless, I think the first thing that needs to be addressed with the JRTC is the convention center issue.  Either its going to move or it isn't.  That's a decision that needs to come to a resolution soon, imo.  Once that decision if firm, the issue could then take multiple turns depending on if it stays or not.

[fsujax]

Frankly, Amtrak doesnt want to pay for anything right now. If this is going to happen. It has to be local, state and maybe some federal money in there. Up to this point, Amtrak has not put any money towards the design of either the relocation of the station here in Jacksonville or on the FEC project. They say all day long how bad they want to be downtown, but money talks and you know what walks!

[fsujax]

I do agree with Lake, the Convention Center issue needs to be addressed immediately.

[tufsu1]

So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....

that isn't going to happen as long as the Prime is still used as a convention center.

That is what we need to change.  Jax Terminal should be a multi use facility.  I bet if we did combine the uses that you might see more movement on getting a new Convention center.

ok...so we move the convention center...how much does that cost, who pays, and when can a new one be built?


Let's say we're rich, move on this right away, and have a new center built by 2015....are you willing to wait that long to relocate Amtrak....and is Everbak willing to wait that long on relocating Greyhound?

[JeffreyS]

I say we don't move the convention center until we can get a private partner for the deal.  If our current center can share the space you may see more interest in a hotel near by or other services in the area.  Let's add our small convention business to our small transit business to create a little more business.

[JeffreyS]

But if we were rich Tufsu1 and ready to build a new one just temporarily house the convention business in the under used Jax Arena.

[thelakelander]

Good analogy Lake....the concept behind the deals would be very similar...let's compare

the Everbank deal brings  1500 employees downtown everyday to a largely empty building....the City pays $2.75 million (subsidizes moving expenses) and $2 million from the state/city when the bank creates 200 new jobs

the Amtrak move would likely cost over $15 million and bring 1500+ riders through Jacksonville every day...but far fewer would get on/off here.

And based on what's happening in NYC right now, it doesn't seem like Amtrak would be interested in paying higher rent

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-22/amtrak-says-it-needs-new-york-station-that-may-be-too-costly.html

I fail to see why getting Amtrak back downtown should run as much as $15 million unless we're considering some expensive bells and whistles in the plan going along with the move.  Several peer cities have recently developed intermodal centers that include Amtrak as one of several modes and those projects have fallen inbetween $20 and $30 million. 

Also, I threw out two mega deals (Everbank & Fidelity) that immediately popped in my head.  If you want an analogy, let me offer some other JEDC incentive deals for a more accurate comparison.  How about Latitude Software, Medtronic Xomed Inc., or the KCI Aviation deals of 2011?

Also, isn't Amtrak's plan's to split and combine Florida trains in Jacksonville?  If so, that makes us a potential rail hub.  How many well paying railroad jobs would be created locally at the site in the event that rail service continues to grow in the future, as proposed?  Where will maintenance facilities be needed when additional expansion comes?  Perhaps in the vicinity of the hub where additional rail support operations are already taking place?  I'm not a railroad guy but is it safe to assume that these jobs are paid significantly higher salaries than the Jacksonville average?  When talking about the economics of moving Amtrak back downtown, one would need to factor these items into the equation as well.

[thelakelander]

So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....

that isn't going to happen as long as the Prime is still used as a convention center.

That is what we need to change.  Jax Terminal should be a multi use facility.  I bet if we did combine the uses that you might see more movement on getting a new Convention center.

ok...so we move the convention center...how much does that cost, who pays, and when can a new one be built?

This is the stuff that should be figured out now.  I'd say this is your "first phase" of addressing the JRTC design issue.

Let's say we're rich, move on this right away, and have a new center built by 2015....are you willing to wait that long to relocate Amtrak....and is Everbak willing to wait that long on relocating Greyhound?

Move Greyhound to the skyway station block and integrate the two together.  As for Amtrak, we'd have to be willing to use some existing space within the existing terminal instead of the more extensive concept shown in the JRTC renderings.

[JeffreyS]

I am warming up to the idea of us having a convention center in a working train station.  Would that be a unique feature to sell? I don't know.

[fsujax]

The major cost is not the actual station improvements. It is the track and signal upgrades that CSX, FEC, NS and Amtrak want.

[thelakelander]

^This sounds like a potential public private partnership type of deal or something that could be suitable for a variety of matching grants out there.  It actually sounds like something that would align with the goals of the upcoming (highly competitive) TIGER IV program.

[fsujax]

Yes it does. I know that JTA wanted to submit last round, but was told to stand down....the Port comes first! I really do not think the Mayor understands the positive impact this would have on Downtown.

[tufsu1]

The major cost is not the actual station improvements. It is the track and signal upgrades that CSX, FEC, NS and Amtrak want.

yes...which is why I said $15+ million

[tufsu1]

I am warming up to the idea of us having a convention center in a working train station.  Would that be a unique feature to sell? I don't know.

when the Prime is really humming (like the car show) every single space is used....so the train station would have to be in a separate structure adjacent (which may be the best short-term plan anyway).