Author Topic: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?  (Read 4747 times)

Metro Jacksonville

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Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« on: November 12, 2010, 03:16:45 AM »
Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?



According to the ill-informed, Jacksonville can't afford to invest in streetcars to take advantage of all the job creation, economic development and downtown revitalization they have been proven to stimulate. Public Transportation Advocates In Action shows why this view does not withstand the test of reality.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-nov-streetcars-in-jacksonville-what-will-it-cost

cephus

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 10:11:26 AM »
Amen!  I think we may have to get a lot more vocal locally to get these things moving - collect money for ad in TU, have a booth at RAM, flyers, local radio, etc.  people are ignorant of the benefits of these projects - reflex is to say "we can't afford to"  when the reality is more "we can't afford not to"

fsujax

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 10:12:43 AM »
that is a great idea cephus. Local grassroots effort to support the streetcar movement. I know that SPAR and RAP are very interested in the concept.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 11:40:24 AM »
This is something we have all been wanting to do for a long, long, time! This could well be the most important thing that Jacksonville has done to better itself since December of 1936!

OCKLAWAHA

Ocklawaha

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 02:35:50 PM »
Check out these expensive poles, wires, tracks and cars...

This was done for penny's on the dollar at at streetcar museums:





Weekend warriors at Fox River


Volunteer gandy dancers out on the trolley line at Rockhill PA


Wow, this looks expensive, doesn't it? Baltimore.


How about in the UK?

OCKLAWAHA
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 03:03:49 PM by Ocklawaha »

Charles Hunter

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 02:59:05 PM »
Are there any examples of "volunteer" or "museum" trolleys in fare-paying transit service?  It is my understanding that there are safety regs for actual transit service, and that these might be beyond the ability of unpaid volunteers.

Ocklawaha

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2010, 03:12:30 PM »

EAST TROY

Mc Kinney Avenue in Dallas, though they have now dropped the fares it's still operated by volunteers. Village of East Troy WI also runs with volunteer labor and even carries freight.

SEE: http://www.mata.org/


OCKLAWAHA

Bewler

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 05:54:25 PM »
If we open up our eyes and ears and get creative, there is no reason we can't take the path of a Kenosha or Little Rock and construct a starter transit line connecting downtown to an adjacent district, such as Five Points, for well under $10 million per mile.  Such a project would not only create jobs and alleviate growing congestion in Riverside, it would also spur economic development and market rate infill in downtown, LaVilla and Brooklyn, while opening the door for future extensions into other areas of our community.

I like this. So what would be a good starting point? It seems to me that all it would really have to do is run along Park st., go north through Brooklyn, past the Prime Osborn and to VaLilla. But then what?
Conformulate. Be conformulatable! It's a perfectly cromulent deed.

thelakelander

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 06:25:20 PM »
In general, the first phase should run from the center of the Northbank (say Bay & Newnan) to Five Points or even Park & King in Riverside.  Water Street/Independent Drive through DT, Park or Myrtle down to Forest, Riverside, Post and then Oak.

Such a path would directly hit the Landing, Laura Street, Omni, MODIS, Hyatt, Bay Street District, Times Union Center, CSX, Water Street garage, Prime Osborn, Brooklyn, 200 Riverside, Everbank, Fidelity, LPS, BCBS, Cummer, Five Points/Margaret St, St. Vincents, Park & King and all the houses, condo towers and apartment complexes in between.   
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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 06:57:41 PM »





Silent Sentinels of Jacksonville Past...

I like this. So what would be a good starting point? It seems to me that all it would really have to do is run along Park st., go north through Brooklyn, past the Prime Osborn and to VaLilla. But then what?

The route is pretty well known already... FROM Bay and Newnan, South on Newnan to Independence/Water Street, West on Water to Lee Street, North on Lee to Bay, West on Bay to Myrtle, South on Myrtle to Forest, East on Forest to Riverside, South on Riverside to Post, West on Post to Oak, South on Oak to King, West on King to Park. One of the prime reasons for this route plan is the Riverside Avenue Viaduct is too steep and too busy + FAST, while the Lee Street Viaduct MUST COME DOWN for the train station.

Much of this West Bay, Newnan, Myrtle Tunnel and Avenue, Riverside, and Oak, all had Jacksonville Streetcar in whole or part of this route until 1936.


OCKLAWAHA
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 07:40:37 PM by Ocklawaha »

Noone

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 07:35:20 PM »
In general, the first phase should run from the center of the Northbank (say Bay & Newnan) to Five Points or even Park & King in Riverside.  Water Street/Independent Drive through DT, Park or Myrtle down to Forest, Riverside, Post and then Oak.

Such a path would directly hit the Landing, Laura Street, Omni, MODIS, Hyatt, Bay Street District, Times Union Center, CSX, Water Street garage, Prime Osborn, Brooklyn, 200 Riverside, Everbank, Fidelity, LPS, BCBS, Cummer, Five Points/Margaret St, St. Vincents, Park & King and all the houses, condo towers and apartment complexes in between.   

Lake, Have you ever met with Michael Ward with CSX? He threw out a million dollar challenge. I'm trying to recall the issue. Downtown Vision is a special taxing district. But just thinking outloud what if the other potential users agreed to a certain amount of money that would equal the DVI contribution that you have listed that are outside of the DVI boundry?

thelakelander

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 08:27:23 PM »
If the mobility plan and fee passes council, the initial streetcar line serving Riverside would be funded 100% by the fee.  Other than hopefully attempting to coordinate their goals for DT with the streetcar path, DVI would not be a major financial player in its development.  With that said, there's always an opportunity for public private development of such a system.  What's currently happening in Detroit is a perfect example. 

There, their major corporations have decided to fund a 3.5 mile starter line with their own money.  The city was then allowed to use the value of this starter as their "local match" for federal dollars that will more than double the length of this transit corridor.

Quote
Ray LaHood, the U.S. Department of Transportation secretary, is expected to soon make an announcement in Detroit related to a financial commitment by the Obama administration for the $425 million Woodward Avenue light rail project.

Details and a date for the announcement are still to be confirmed, said Karen Dumas, chief communications officer for Detroit Mayor Dave Bing, in an e-mail this morning.

LaHood's office said this morning that nothing is scheduled.

The city and a private consortium of investors are cooperating on a two-stage plan to build a light rail loop from Hart Plaza to Eight Mile Road.

The private group, called M1 Rail, is funding a 3.4-mile, 12-stop route from Hart Plaza to New Center, and has secured most of the $125 million cost of that portion of the project.

The goal is to have the M1 Rail phase running by 2012 and the city's portion by 2013. Detroit Department of Transportation and M1 were cleared by Congress to use the private expenditures as local matching money for federal funding for the city's portion, most of which will be paid for with federal grants.

A message was left for M1 Rail CEO Matt Cullen.

The city said it planned to apply for funding this year from the Federal Transit Administration's New Starts program, which is aimed at partially funding qualified local fixed transit projects. It's unclear if the application has been made.

Approximately $180 million — the $125 million being raised by M1 Rail and $55 million programmed by DDOT — has been earmarked toward the estimated $220 million needed to match a federal grant, the city has said.



Quote
The private plan's backers and chief financiers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske, chairman of the project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, the project's co-chairman.

Also contributing funds are the Troy-based Kresge Foundation ($35 million) and the city's Downtown Development Authority ($9 million) and companies and institutions that bought advertising rights to the line's stations at $3 million each. Some level of bank financing will be sought as well.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20100722/FREE/100729955/transportation-secretary-ray-lahood-expected-to-announce-federal-commitment-to-woodward-light-rail

If Detroit can pull off such a plan, there's no reason Jacksonville couldn't, if it were a priority of the community.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

peestandingup

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 11:40:42 PM »
Any city who builds a Skyway-to-nowhere like we have for as much as it cost that can't ever be extended & has arguably the worst bus system of any major city, clearly doesn't understand concepts like this or transit in general.

Don't get me wrong, I love these pieces & stories about what could be someday, but this town's leadership needs an enema & has too much of a good-ol-boy small town mentality. And the only way you do that is to get voters on the same page. And I just don't think the vast majority of Jax residents care enough (or have even been around enough to know how a REAL city is supposed to function).

thelakelander

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 11:59:37 PM »
Next Spring will be your best chance to turn things around.  We have some pretty good candidates running for mayor.
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

cityimrov

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Re: Streetcars in Jacksonville: What Will It Cost?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2010, 05:57:50 PM »
If you guys really want this thing build, you need to find enough genuine people who will stand up to JTA, to the citizens of this community, and proclaim to the world - "If you build this, I will ride it!"  

If you can find and unite those people, this thing will be built.  If you can't, then this will turn into nothing but a fun conversation piece.  Remember JTA and Jacksonville is terrified about rail.  They built the Skyway.  They thought people would ride the Skyway but when it opened, almost nobody did.  The last thing they or anybody else wants is TWO FAILED rail projects.  If this project fails, a THIRD rail project is not going to happen. 
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 06:00:25 PM by cityimrov »