Author Topic: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood  (Read 42762 times)

ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2011, 01:19:23 PM »
And FWIW, I agree, reconnecting the original residential areas with Downtown via real (rail, non-JTA based) public transit, and by reopening long-closed road connections, will do wonders for all of them. But downtown is literally starting from scratch, in many ways that Brentwood is not. It's almost like the Great Fire happened all over again. Except this time it was Burns, Pappas, and Diamond. But just as destructive.


Dashing Dan

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #106 on: September 18, 2011, 01:30:16 PM »
Ultimately, downtown's success will be determined by what we do with the surrounding neighborhoods and how we reconnect it with them.
I could name a few neighborhoods in Nashville that would be useful prototypes for the kind of re-development you have mentioned. Germantown is immediately adjacent to downtown Nashville and it is well on the way to gentrification. 

In terms of maintaining neighborhood diversity and a nice mix of lifestyle options, I'd start with Edgefield.

Here's a link to their preservation organization.

http://www.historicedgefield.org/

Nashville is a nice prototype for Jacksonville.  They're about the same size and their cultures are very similar. 

On top of that, the consolidated city-county government of Nashville was used as the prototype when Jacksonville and Duval County governments were consolidated in the Sixties.
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thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #107 on: September 18, 2011, 01:32:49 PM »
Chris, I don't believe that DT is starting from scratch.  In some areas it is but in others, there is infrastructure and assets in place to build around.  I see Brentwood, Durkeeville and even Springfield in the same light.  They all have certain things where they may be ahead or behind other communities.  In downtown, I'd say the cultural institutions, public offices, skyway, riverwalks, existing businesses/residents are all things to build around, so preservation of what remains should definitely be a high priority.  On the flip end, Brentwood is blessed to have the majority of its historic building stock still standing and a decent residential base.  However, over the decades, its suffered a significant loss of jobs and businesses and transit connectivity.  In addition, significant portions of the housing stock are in need of repair.  I just don't want to see a repeat of what happened with Sugar Hill, Brooklyn and LaVilla when they reached the point of where a Brentwood or New Springfield is today.
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thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #108 on: September 18, 2011, 01:34:31 PM »
Dashing Dan, great examples.  Nashville is a nice prototype to study.  The last time I was up there, I stumbled into Germantown and Edgefield, but didn't get much time to explore them.
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thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #109 on: September 18, 2011, 01:43:14 PM »
But we really are talking about two different things here, aren't we? Unless the only metric you count is building height, then it's hard not to see that downtown has a long way to reach upwards before it's even on the same footing as a Brentwood, in terms of simply being a functional area. When you refer to a Brentwood as struggling, we're talking economically struggling, it's a low-income area, despite its historic value. But when we talk about downtown, it's a different problem. It's deserted vacant lots and no people, of any income bracket.

When I mention struggling urban neighborhoods, I tend to loop several issues together.  Imo, there are so many interchangeable parts (preservation, crime, infill development, job creation, transportation, health, etc.) that you must take a holistic view when discussing revitalization of any particular urban district.  I even wonder if a part of downtown's ills come from us not looking at how it works/integrates with the surrounding communities and instead, treating it like a gated community. 

For example, downtown hasn't had a high residential population in over 60 years.  It's residential base was supplied by the adjacent densely populated neighborhoods.  So perhaps reconnecting downtown to surrounding urban districts with viable transportation options is the key to affordable housing in the area?
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ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #110 on: September 18, 2011, 01:45:38 PM »
Chris, I don't believe that DT is starting from scratch.  In some areas it is but in others, there is infrastructure and assets in place to build around.  I see Brentwood, Durkeeville and even Springfield in the same light.  They all have certain things where they may be ahead or behind other communities.  In downtown, I'd say the cultural institutions, public offices, skyway, riverwalks, existing businesses/residents are all things to build around, so preservation of what remains should definitely be a high priority.  On the flip end, Brentwood is blessed to have the majority of its historic building stock still standing and a decent residential base.  However, over the decades, its suffered a significant loss of jobs and businesses and transit connectivity.  In addition, significant portions of the housing stock are in need of repair.  I just don't want to see a repeat of what happened with Sugar Hill, Brooklyn and LaVilla when they reached the point of where a Brentwood or New Springfield is today.

Well I guess this is the difference then, I view assets in terms of a functional area as people being there, and reasons for them to be there, and the absence of reasons for them to not be there. I don't view an empty building or an empty street, or even an underutilized train, as an asset when the larger picture in which those are painted is completely nonfunctional. Downtown is seriously starting from scratch, Lake. There are few people there, and no real reason for that for change. Brentwood, etc., are a whole different ballpark. Sure I'd like to see them cleaned up and see economic conditions improve for the residents there, but downtown has a ways to go before it even reaches that level. That is ultimately the point of all this planning, not producing a pretty structure nobody uses. It's about people. Brentwood is functional as what it is. Downtown is not.


ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #111 on: September 18, 2011, 01:47:48 PM »
But we really are talking about two different things here, aren't we? Unless the only metric you count is building height, then it's hard not to see that downtown has a long way to reach upwards before it's even on the same footing as a Brentwood, in terms of simply being a functional area. When you refer to a Brentwood as struggling, we're talking economically struggling, it's a low-income area, despite its historic value. But when we talk about downtown, it's a different problem. It's deserted vacant lots and no people, of any income bracket.

When I mention struggling urban neighborhoods, I tend to loop several issues together.  Imo, there are so many interchangeable parts (preservation, crime, infill development, job creation, transportation, health, etc.) that you must take a holistic view when discussing revitalization of any particular urban district.  I even wonder if a part of downtown's ills come from us not looking at how it works/integrates with the surrounding communities and instead, treating it like a gated community. 

For example, downtown hasn't had a high residential population in over 60 years.  It's residential base was supplied by the adjacent densely populated neighborhoods.  So perhaps reconnecting downtown to surrounding urban districts with viable transportation options is the key to affordable housing in the area?

I think it's a myth that there was no residential downtown.

In truth, there was plenty, until people like Diamond went on a wrecking spree and destroyed it.

I do think immediately connecting all of the remaining original neighborhoods we haven't knocked down would help.


ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #112 on: September 18, 2011, 02:01:53 PM »






thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #113 on: September 18, 2011, 02:13:14 PM »
There were thousands of more in the neighborhoods immediately adjacent to it.  For example, LaVilla had over 5,000 residents alone at one point.  Many of these residents worked in the hotels, restaurants and industries along the railroad and waterfront.  These people also spent their money in this area, creating opportunity for small businesses.  Today, I'd be suprised if we can find 20 permanent residents.  Brooklyn, East Jacksonville, the space inbetween, etc. all have similar stories.

Quote
Well I guess this is the difference then, I view assets in terms of a functional area as people being there, and reasons for them to be there, and the absence of reasons for them to not be there. I don't view an empty building or an empty street, or even an underutilized train, as an asset when the larger picture in which those are painted is completely nonfunctional.

I view them as assets because if you can successfully modify policy to better embrace market demand and national wide trends, these things are already in place to get utilization out of.  When you rip that vacant building down, sandwich shop or art gallery owner most likely doesn't have the money to construct a complete new building to house their business.  To me, starting from scratch is Nocatee. You're literally putting in the infrastructure, creating policy and everything else.
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thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #114 on: September 18, 2011, 02:15:54 PM »
Btw, those images are of LaVilla.  It was a completely different city (at one point) and neighborhood.  It only became a part of what some consider downtown today when we made artificial borders for taxation purposes.  However, if that (along with Brooklyn, the Southbank, East Jacksonville, etc.) is what you're referring to as downtown then it did have several thousand residents during its heyday.  We're on the same page, I just happen to be referring to these areas as "adjacent neighborhoods."
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 02:17:54 PM by thelakelander »
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ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #115 on: September 18, 2011, 02:22:54 PM »
There were thousands of more in the neighborhoods immediately adjacent to it.  For example, LaVilla had over 5,000 residents alone at one point.  Many of these residents worked in the hotels, restaurants and industries along the railroad and waterfront.  These people also spent their money in this area, creating opportunity for small businesses.  Today, I'd be suprised if we can find 20 permanent residents.  Brooklyn, East Jacksonville, the space inbetween, etc. all have similar stories.

Quote
Well I guess this is the difference then, I view assets in terms of a functional area as people being there, and reasons for them to be there, and the absence of reasons for them to not be there. I don't view an empty building or an empty street, or even an underutilized train, as an asset when the larger picture in which those are painted is completely nonfunctional.

I view them as assets because if you can successfully modify policy to better embrace market demand and national wide trends, these things are already in place to get utilization out of.  When you rip that vacant building down, sandwich shop or art gallery owner most likely doesn't have the money to construct a complete new building to house their business.  To me, starting from scratch is Nocatee. You're literally putting in the infrastructure, creating policy and everything else.

Well yeah, Lake. That's why I'm saying downtown is pretty much starting from scratch. Urban cores don't work without certain things, like affordable residential areas, etc. Downtown has none. It is, quite literally, starting from scratch, the same as a Nocatee. It all now has to be built again, because idiots knocked it down in their misguided quest to cure society of everything they didn't like.

You've just admitted as many residents actually lived in the residential parts of just La Villa as there are people in total all of downtown on pretty much any given day now. The same thing on the Eastern half of downtown, we demolished all the residential to build an unneeded expressway, that everyone knew was unneccessary at the time but built anyway because it gave them an excuse to get rid of a demographic they didn't like. That has to be redone from scratch, just like a Nocatee.

We've removed everything that made downtown functional, what's left may have some visual appeal but is largely useless and will stay mired in stagnation until the entire picture is repainted so it actually works. Right now, none of those things are assets, they're just things few people use because there is little reason to be there.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 02:27:34 PM by ChriswUfGator »


ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #116 on: September 18, 2011, 02:25:16 PM »
Btw, those images are of LaVilla.  It was a completely different city (at one point) and neighborhood.  It only became a part of what some consider downtown today when we made artificial borders for taxation purposes.  However, if that (along with Brooklyn, the Southbank, East Jacksonville, etc.) is what you're referring to as downtown then it did have several thousand residents during its heyday.  We're on the same page, I just happen to be referring to these areas as "adjacent neighborhoods."

Every city has sub-areas that are part of the larger whole, Lake. That doesn't mean anything. La Villa, or the vacant lots of what used to be La Villa anyway, are a couple short blocks' walk from Hemming Park. Let's not be silly and try and say it somehow wasn't 'downtown.' It was. Ditto with everything on the eastern side of downtown. And the northern portion of it. All knocked down. But it was all part of downtown, was mainly residential, and we knocked it all down. Urban cores function on residential, commercial, and transportation, it's a 3-legged stool, and we knocked two of the legs out and have been wondering ever since why it won't stand up.


thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #117 on: September 18, 2011, 02:54:53 PM »
I don't think its silly to not forget the fact that the neighborhoods that make up our urban core are unique in their own right.  Simply referring to +100 years of unique urban development patterns as "downtown" helps lead to the general notion of the city being known as an Anyplace USA. 

Beacon Hill is closer to downtown Boston than LaVilla is to Hemming Plaza but I wouldn't refer to it as downtown Boston.  Thornton Park is on the opposite side of Lake Eola, but I wouldn't refer to it as downtown Orlando.  The southern section of Springfield is a few block walk from the Northbank core, but I wouldn't refer to it as downtown Jacksonville.  Nevertheless, we're speaking semantics. 

However, I do view the larger whole as being the pre-consolidated city, which stretches as far north as Panama Park.  All of these areas were urban and walkable (just as much as Riverside is today).  They also created and supported the vibrant downtown we see in the historical images.


Follow the old streetcar lines and we'll see the natural links between downtown and urban residential districts that still remain.  Start linking these back together and we'll be well on our way to reestablishing downtown as an economic center.

So when speaking of the downtown core revitalization, I tend to view some stated needs, such as a residential base and affordable housing as already being in place enough to be utilized.  While new infill residential would be ideal (the preconsolidated city has 50% less population than it had in 1950), reality says not much will be happening in the short term. 

However, we can leverage our existing urban residential base and building stock through transit connectivity.  The connectivity helps in two ways.  It immediately creates afforable housing opportunities where one can still enjoy the assets of downtown, Riverside, San Marco, etc. without the use of a car.  Long term, the fixed transit connection stimulates the infill development in downtown and adjacent neighborhoods Brooklyn and LaVilla. 


A recent restoration project in New Springfield. This property is a two block walk from a potential rail stop in the Springfield Warehouse District. A five minute ride on a train would put residents at the downtown terminal.


Affordable housing opportunities are already in place throughout the urban core.  All we need to do is reestablish the fixed transit connectivity.

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jun-the-florida-lee-an-urban-core-preservation-success-
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 03:01:21 PM by thelakelander »
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Dashing Dan

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #118 on: September 18, 2011, 03:00:51 PM »
This issue has been visited more than once on this website, namely that in the Haydon Burns era there was a conscious effort to disconnect downtown from its immediately adjoining neighborhoods, and at the same time to build new connections to then-undeveloped areas like Arlington. 

There may have been good reasons to do this.  With hindsight, the bad reasons are more obvious. 

Once those outlying neighborhoods became established, the retailers moved out of downtown in order to be closer to where their customers were (e.g. to Regency Square).  I don't think that was expected.

One way or another, we need to reconnect downtown to the neighborhoods that are nearby.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 03:40:09 PM by Dashing Dan »
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ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #119 on: September 18, 2011, 06:00:42 PM »
I agree.

I can think of one or two COJ planners who should also be involved in an initiative like this.

Institutionally as well as physically, we need to build on what's already out there.

If you're serious, I am. I suspect Lake and Stephen may interested in joining up on it as well. If downtown had possessed a RAP watching over preservation, we probably wouldn't have seen the wholesale destruction of so much of it.

If you think it's still worth it even after we've already lost so much of it, I'm game if you are. I would have questioned the need before a couple months ago, when the latest plan for the convention-doggle included a plan to knock down the historic Herkimer Block in order to replace it with...yet...another...parking garage. Since then I've been mulling it over, and have become convinced downtown needs its own preservation society, separate from any other agency.