Author Topic: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood  (Read 42763 times)

ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2011, 10:05:09 AM »
Perhaps a higher focus by political leaders over the years, due to higher exposure and regional revelance, combined with a long term embracement of poor urban planning concepts.

It boils down to downtown having no RAP, downtown being a sea of now-vacant land with associated unrealistic cost barriers to entry for the types of businesses that spur redevelopment, and last but certainly not least, downtown is and continues to be a chess-board for a handful of 5 people who use it to make money off unnecessary projects and policies at taxpayers' expense.

Riverside escaped this fate because of RAP, which prevented it from becoming a bunch of vacant lots. Contrast that with SPAR, that's the literal exact reason that Springfield didn't come back. You're to the point now over there where, especially with commercial properties, the choice is exorbitant rent at one of the handful of places still standing, or building from scratch, which nobody can really afford. Meanwhile, Riverside is booming, paradoxically, even in the face of a prolonged recession. We've had 1 demolition in 10 years. As much as Dashing Dan has made this a Riverside vs. Downtown topic, it's really just about Riverside, because the same issues become obvious when you compare it even to other residential neighborhoods. In the entire state, potentially the country, Jacksonville is 1/2 blessed 1/2 cursed to have the two historic neighborhoods that best exemplify how to do urban redevelopment and how not to do it.

Nobody wants to acknowledge the economic realities that make downtown the sea of tumbleweeds that it is. There are not enough residents, there are not enough open businesses, it's too much of a hassle to frequent the few that are open because of the parking policies, which is the same reason all the corporate offices have fled. Nothing is connected or even makes sense because of a useless 1-way street grid, and because of asinine zoning and signage restrictions it took two years of waiting for an answer about whether they could have outdoor seating before the last restaurant (that wasn't at the landing) that tried to open down there just gave up. Not that you would have known they were there if they had opened, since you're not allowed to put up most any kind of visible sign, sandwich boards, etc. Unless you're a bank or insurance company, then COJ has no problem with you putting up 40' high lighted signs on all 4 sides of your building.

All of that needs to be addressed immediately, along with moving the vacant lots into redevelopment mode. None of this is fixable by building another boondoggle like a convention center. In fact, that will simply fail too. The environment down there is toxic to business and visitors, and the toxic environment needs to be cured first before any of this will happen the way any of us want it to.


thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2011, 10:12:11 AM »
^Everything you mention about DT are all results of overcomplicating the situation, overplanning, bad planning or whatever term each Tom, Dick and Harry wants to coin as the phrase of the day.  Also, while DT has no RAP, it did have a DDA that helped turn it into the abyss it is today.  The mess we have on our hands now is the direct result of several half implemented master plans, horrible urban planning policies and a complete lack of understanding on the impact of ripping a CBD's economic foundation away for perceived "cosmetic" and "social" improvements.  We've had these discussions before, so I'm pretty sure we agree on this. 

Now it seems like Mayor Brown will be bringing back some form of a DDA.  What are some suggestions for its structure that would enable it to have a RAP like impact on downtown instead of a SPAR like impact on Springfield?
"A man who views the world the same at 50 as he did at 20 has wasted 30 years of his life.” - Muhammad Ali

jcjohnpaint

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2011, 10:29:15 AM »
Great thread.  Personally stop treating DT businesses like disease and maybe try to first develop a small compact DT before trying to make one as big as Philly's DT.  Although I think all of this has been covered in other posts.  I still believe there is corruption going on.  Who is making a buck on DT failure?  Who? 

Dashing Dan

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2011, 10:30:20 AM »
I think Chris has hit the nail on the head here.  You don't just tear stuff down in the hope that something better will come along that will take its place.  There were people at work in downtown Nashville who wanted to tear stuff down at the same time that LaVilla was disappearing, but preservation interests there were somewhat more effective.

http://www.nashvillescene.com/nashville/demolition-derby/Content?oid=1180228

Since this article ran in 1996, Church street in downtown Nashville has been turned into a success story.

All of the planning errors etc downtown (and in Springfield) were committed or condoned by the same jurisdiction that deserves so much credit for Riverside and Avondale, i.e. the City of Jacksonville.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 10:50:34 AM by Dashing Dan »
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.  - Benjamin Franklin

ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2011, 10:48:00 AM »
^Everything you mention about DT are all results of overcomplicating the situation, overplanning, bad planning or whatever term each Tom, Dick and Harry wants to coin as the phrase of the day.  Also, while DT has no RAP, it did have a DDA that helped turn it into the abyss it is today.  The mess we have on our hands now is the direct result of several half implemented master plans, horrible urban planning policies and a complete lack of understanding on the impact of ripping a CBD's economic foundation away for perceived "cosmetic" and "social" improvements.  We've had these discussions before, so I'm pretty sure we agree on this. 

Now it seems like Mayor Brown will be bringing back some form of a DDA.  What are some suggestions for its structure that would enable it to have a RAP like impact on downtown instead of a SPAR like impact on Springfield?

Downtown needs a separate entity from DVI or a new DDA, whose sole and singular mission is preserving what's left.


Dashing Dan

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »
As much as Dashing Dan has made this a Riverside vs. Downtown topic ... the same issues become obvious when you compare it even to other residential neighborhoods.
I stand corrected.  The difference isn't between downtown and Riverside.  The difference is between preservation and knee-jerk demolition.

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.  - Benjamin Franklin

finehoe

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2011, 10:59:32 AM »
Who is making a buck on DT failure?  Who?

Follow the money...

ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2011, 11:06:28 AM »
As much as Dashing Dan has made this a Riverside vs. Downtown topic ... the same issues become obvious when you compare it even to other residential neighborhoods.
I stand corrected.  The difference isn't between downtown and Riverside.  The difference is between preservation and knee-jerk demolition.

Yeah, I mean, in addition to being the ethically correct thing to do in order to preserve our heritage for our offspring, at the end of the day, if you don't, then it fosters this set of almost unconquerable financial obstacles to revitalization. If you look at the type of businesses that spur organic redevelopment in blighted areas, it's things like thrift stores, low-end retail, restaurants, etc., these are the exact type of businesses that don't have a million spare dollars laying around to build a new building from scratch.

So when you tear everything down, what exactly is supposed to happen? A lot of crickets chirping, figuratively & literally.

Downtown and Springfield both share this problem. It had different causes in each place, but the result is the same.


Dashing Dan

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2011, 11:29:14 AM »
In the entire state, potentially the country, Jacksonville is 1/2 blessed 1/2 cursed to have the two historic neighborhoods that best exemplify how to do urban redevelopment and how not to do it.
Back in the Seventies, at the same time that RAP was getting started, the council member for Springfield had a very different agenda.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 11:31:27 AM by Dashing Dan »
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.  - Benjamin Franklin

ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2011, 11:40:11 AM »
In the entire state, potentially the country, Jacksonville is 1/2 blessed 1/2 cursed to have the two historic neighborhoods that best exemplify how to do urban redevelopment and how not to do it.
Back in the Seventies, at the same time that RAP was getting started, the council member for Springfield had a very different agenda.

Let's get together with Wayne Wood and talk about starting a Downtown Preservation Society.

I think the new DDA could be great, if led by the right people. But in having this discussion, I think we've hit on a main problem, and I think it's obvious that preservation needs to have its own voice represented in the mix. It's not just about old buildings, either. There are sound and serious economic reasons for why this must be addressed. Although when it comes to Downtown, I can't help feeling as though we may be shutting the barn door after the horse has already run off.


Dashing Dan

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #100 on: September 18, 2011, 11:45:59 AM »
I agree.

I can think of one or two COJ planners who should also be involved in an initiative like this.

Institutionally as well as physically, we need to build on what's already out there.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.  - Benjamin Franklin

thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #101 on: September 18, 2011, 12:37:12 PM »
Kind of a parallel subject, but there are well preserved neighborhoods still struggling like Brentwood and Durkeeville that have the potential to replicate the success of Riverside.  Does anyone here know much about their neighborhood advocacy groups?
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ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #102 on: September 18, 2011, 12:56:49 PM »
Kind of a parallel subject, but there are well preserved neighborhoods still struggling like Brentwood and Durkeeville that have the potential to replicate the success of Riverside.  Does anyone here know much about their neighborhood advocacy groups?

Brentwood and Durkeeville may not be Beverly Hills, but you're mixing up two different definitions of 'struggling.'

Are they primarily low-income neighborhoods? Yes. But are there residents there? Yes. We aren't really talking about the same thing as Downtown, are we? Because Downtown's problem isn't that it is a low-income area, it's that it is a deserted area. It's not just that a turnaround hasn't happened yet, because the economic conditions and timing hasn't been right, as with Brentwood. Downtown's problem is that a turnaround literally cannot happen, unless the turnaround you envision involves using all of the vacant lots as urban pastureland. Maybe we can be like the Vermont of mid-tier cities, with more cows than people in the core?

Ditto in Springfield. The issue isn't that the timing and economic conditions aren't right, the issue is that there are now, thanks to SPAR, structural deficiencies that prevent a turnaround from happening when the timing again becomes right. The issue in well-preserved but lower-income neighborhoods is simply that economic conditions aren't yet right for their eventual economic resurgence. But they are intact, and it will occur when conditions are right.

Not every neighborhood can be a San Marco, you know. Somewhere, someplace, there will need to be affordable housing in every city. And right now, it happens to be there. That's not to say that won't change in the future, because those areas are intact and can support that demographic shift. But we aren't really in the same ballpark, lumping those together under the same definition of 'struggling.' It's not even the same game. What we're talking about with Downtown and Springfield, and the wholesale destruction of their commercial and residential building stock, is that there are now structural barriers in place that inhibit an economic resurgence, even if every other possible condition were favorable.


thelakelander

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2011, 01:10:59 PM »
Struggling in terms of attracting quality infill, quality affordable housing, job creation, lowering crime, enhancing image, economic opportunity for residents, etc.  Believe me, I'm not talking about gentrifying neighborhoods.  If you knew anything about my history and upbringing, you'd recognize my stance is pretty strong on the topics of gentrification, African-American history, cultural preservation, acceptance, etc.  With that said, downtown's struggles today also have just as much to do with what has happened in the surrounding neighborhoods as it has within its boundaries itself.  Which is why I raised the question.  Ultimately, downtown's success will be determined by what we do with the surrounding neighborhoods and how we reconnect it with them.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2011, 01:16:41 PM by thelakelander »
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ChriswUfGator

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Re: Riverside Avondale an American Top 10 Neighborhood
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2011, 01:17:09 PM »
Struggling in terms of attracting quality infill, quality affordable housing, job creation, lowering crime, enhancing image, economic opportunity for residents, etc.  Believe me, I'm not talking about attempting to gentrifying neighborhoods.  If you knew anything about my history and upbringing, you'd recognize my stance is pretty strong on the topics of gentrification, African-American historic, cultural preservation, acceptance, etc.

I know you personally, I don't question your motives at all, Lake. I know you're good as gold.

But we really are talking about two different things here, aren't we? Unless the only metric you count is building height, then it's hard not to see that downtown has a long way to reach upwards before it's even on the same footing as a Brentwood, in terms of simply being a functional area. When you refer to a Brentwood as struggling, we're talking economically struggling, it's a low-income area, despite its historic value. But when we talk about downtown, it's a different problem. It's deserted vacant lots and no people, of any income bracket.

Just saying, we're really talking about apples & oranges here. In many ways, downtown has to start from scratch again.