The Jaxson

Community => Transportation, Mass Transit & Infrastructure => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on September 19, 2007, 04:00:00 AM

Title: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on September 19, 2007, 04:00:00 AM
Bus Shelters Done Right

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2068-dsc01938.JPG)

Once again, Jacksonville has proven incapable of implementing simple solutions to solve simple problems. Now that bus shelter advertising has been rejected, let's take a look at some viable and attractive solutions we should have taken advantage of.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/565
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: copperfiend on September 19, 2007, 06:56:13 AM
This all sounds very high tech. Is Jacksonville ready for this???
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on September 19, 2007, 07:01:46 AM
(http://www.wall-usa.com/imperia/md/images/wallde/streetfurniture/products/productpictures/cityinfopanel/2.jpg)

Nice.  We could definately use a few of these downtown.  Especially if there's companies out there that will install and maintain them without our tax dollars. 
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: gatorback on September 19, 2007, 10:58:30 AM
Austin uses these things...Very helpful even when the bus shelter doesn't have WIFI--which Capital Metro is rolling out having installed at more then a couple of stops so far--one can figure out what to expect making the usage  of the bus system that much more attractive.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: avonjax on September 19, 2007, 10:58:43 AM
I suppose the city council doesn't want to VISUALLY POLLUTE our roadsides with awful advertising. Instead we can keep the ad free litter ridden eyesores we currently have because I guess we can't afford anything better. I am constantly amazed that we are living in such a small minded city that views progessive ideas as the works of the devil I guess...
Nothing else can really explain it.
WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE and who are they trying to protect?
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: johnallmand on September 19, 2007, 11:51:33 AM
The fact is that advertising like this opens the door for other forms of advertising that really does visually pollute. Also JEA can add bus shelters if they want... they don't need the advertising money to do it.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on September 19, 2007, 12:05:01 PM
I guess visual pollution is in the eye of the beholder.  I, for one, would not mind seeing well designed advertising on bus shelters and other things, if they are being funded and maintained by the private sector and we get public improvements in the process.  This does not mean I fully support JTA's defeated proposal to give the rights to Clear Channel, but it sure beats seeing the buses tattooed with tacky Hooter's Ads, flying through town or forcing riders to stand in the rain to ride the bus because there are no shelters.

Furthermore, considering we're in the midst of a budget crunch and nobody wants their taxes raised, it would be good for us to consider public private partnerships, such as what Boston has been able to do with their wayfaring signage and bus shelters, as shown in these images.  We can't continue to be ultra picky, while not willing to finance needed improvements on our own or even come up with viable alternatives.  All that does is leave us drowning in the pool of mediocrity and inefficiency.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: copperfiend on September 19, 2007, 12:27:54 PM
Has anybody seen the "bus stop" on Roosevelt near NAS? It is on the opposite side about half a mile south from the main gate. There is no sidewalk on the street and is between railroad tracks and the six lane highway that is Roosevelt. It is literally a small wood bench and would be damn near impossible for a person to reach. Not surprising, I have never seen one person at this bus stop.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: gatorback on September 19, 2007, 01:05:43 PM
Would PSA's be Visual Pollution?  They could at least inform when nobody buys the spot at the bus stop.  Campaigns for HIV Awareness, Domestic Violence, and Fire Ant Awareness are PSA the JTA should advertise along with the schedules like other cities do.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: johnallmand on September 19, 2007, 01:14:57 PM
C'mon! If all we were talking about was JUST BUS STOP ADVERTISING then fine. Do it in a nice way.... but then we have companies that see this as an opportunity to push. Pretty soon it's everywhere.... I'm not making this up. It HAS happened before in other cities. Take LA for example. Letting Bus shelter advertising into their signage regulations opened them up to all kinds or really offensive stuff that they really can't stop now. It's like a pandoras box and it starts here and now. . And then, who's to say what kind of advertising it is... and isn't offensive.. Opens up the whole 1st amendment issue. Trust me we are better of without it.

The bus advertisement is a whole separate issue. For some strange reason it's not withing the jurisdiction of the cities signage regs... something about its moving... I dunno

Listen, we can agree that we need better bus stops... but there are other... smarter.... ways of accomplishing it before you just sell out and start down a road that ends up with a city without a sign reg...

Start a "adopt a shelter" program or... something like that... lets get creative...

Honestly, I thought you guys would really be on board with this...
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: johnallmand on September 19, 2007, 01:17:40 PM
yes, I think PDA's would... not to mention the fact that they block views inside the shelter which is a safety issue...

Why do we need to plaster our world with glossy airbrushed pictures... lets break out of that.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Lunican on September 19, 2007, 01:41:42 PM
Well, the problem with an "Adopt a Shelter" program might be that JTA would have to administer it. Typically programs like that would not be able to provide the level of maintenance that a company like Wall does.

Several adopt a shelter programs listed online require the shelter be cleaned at least once a once a month.

Wall cleans their shelters and street furniture 3 times a day.

I don't think an adoption program is bad, but it seems like it would be more work with less results.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: gatorback on September 19, 2007, 01:42:00 PM
Every bus in jacksonville displays ads so "regulations" or policy is already in place...the signs on the bus don't block seeing outwards.....it generates money.  keep cost down.   I'd like to see a mix of PSA, bus schedule, and marketing ....it would pay for better bus stops?
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on September 19, 2007, 01:46:02 PM
C'mon! If all we were talking about was JUST BUS STOP ADVERTISING then fine. Do it in a nice way.... but then we have companies that see this as an opportunity to push. Pretty soon it's everywhere.... I'm not making this up. It HAS happened before in other cities. Take LA for example. Letting Bus shelter advertising into their signage regulations opened them up to all kinds or really offensive stuff that they really can't stop now. It's like a pandoras box and it starts here and now. . And then, who's to say what kind of advertising it is... and isn't offensive.. Opens up the whole 1st amendment issue. Trust me we are better of without it.

The transit system isn't better off being subpar.  Seriously, Jax is not on an island.  There's nothing we're facing that some other city out there hasn't faced and either succeeded or failed out there.  There should be plenty of examples to learn from out there and come up with a viable compromise and solution that does not open up a "pandora's box", not only for bus shelters, but wayfaring and directional signage as well.

Quote
The bus advertisement is a whole separate issue. For some strange reason it's not withing the jurisdiction of the cities signage regs... something about its moving... I dunno

Listen, we can agree that we need better bus stops... but there are other... smarter.... ways of accomplishing it before you just sell out and start down a road that ends up with a city without a sign reg...

I don't think anyone mentioned that we should take the proposal JTA had on the table hook, line and sinker.  The whole theme of this article has been about finding a way to search for a viable public/private solution even if the solution ends up including some form of advertising on the end product.

Quote
Start a "adopt a shelter" program or... something like that... lets get creative...

Honestly, I thought you guys would really be on board with this...

I can't speak for others but I lay somewhere in the middle of the two arguments out there.  JTA's is one extreme, while the other side is the other extreme.  The answer that works best for the community probably lies somewhere in the middle, but both sides have to be willing to give a little.

As for "adopting a shelter", that's a noble concept.  How many transit agencies have been success with this option on a large scale level?  If there's a good example of it out there, then by all means, lets explore.  Nevertheless, its one thing to come up with a creative solution, but its another to spend years trying to find a way to recreate the wheel, when there may be successful methods (that don't open pandora's boxes) already out there.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: tufsu1 on September 19, 2007, 03:35:44 PM
Wow...MetroJacksonville sponsored the trip.....sounds cushy to me....may there should be an investigation!
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on September 19, 2007, 04:12:26 PM
Be sure to let everyone know what you find.  We need to make sure we're not abusing our privately financed privileges.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: gatorback on September 19, 2007, 04:14:24 PM
The JTA could keep it simple.  Look how CapitalMetro does their stops, notice the trash receptical and the bus schedule with map......not all are this fancy....some don't even have WIFI.  ;D


Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Lunican on September 19, 2007, 04:35:58 PM
Wow...MetroJacksonville sponsored the trip.....sounds cushy to me....may there should be an investigation!

At least everyone can see the findings from these trips. What did Peyton learn on his trip to China? I'd like to know...
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: tufsu1 on September 19, 2007, 04:38:00 PM
its a joke guys...lighten up!
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Lunican on September 19, 2007, 04:56:46 PM
I think Peyton should write a "Learning from China" article for us...

(not a joke)
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on September 19, 2007, 05:07:15 PM
its a joke guys...lighten up!

My reply was a joke as well.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: big ben on September 19, 2007, 06:51:59 PM
i definitely wouldn't want clear channel involved with our city.  i don't know how they are at signage, but i don't like them. 

(http://www.wall-usa.com/imperia/md/images/wallde/streetfurniture/products/productpictures/busshelter/19.jpg)

i used to work by a stop like this in st. louis.  i thought it looked great.  it didn't really block too much view.  it also didn't have that pedestal thing in the corner.  i don't know what that is.  i think it would help if there was a requirement for the signage to be at least 1.5-2 feet off the ground or something like that, but the top can't go any higher.  the problem with something like this is that in some places like downtown, the sidewalk isn't big enough to have room for it.  you might have to make a deal with building owners to have an overhanging roof with no sides on it and if advertising was necessary, it'd need to be flat against the wall.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Lunican on September 19, 2007, 07:05:15 PM
They are more transparent than what we've already got at some stops.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/bus_shelters/busstops-008.jpg)
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2007, 08:43:22 PM
It's the ROOF fellas! Today, we are so far removed from a transit mobile society, we have fogotten passenger comfort and design in the process. It's all about community design standards and the public be damned. I think we can do both and do it well. How about you guys get out your crayons on this...???

I don't like the roof on about 68% of the new Transit Shelters I see. Back in the Day, all transportation shelters sported "butterfly" roofs. Meaning, the roof is shaped like a "V". This design works for trains, trolleys and buses, as well as autos. It sheds the water to a center rib, hence into down spouts and out to the curb or ditch. A vehicle can nest up under the edge of the roof and board passengers without ANY waterfall effect on the patrons. If the reach is long enough, such as a couple of feet over the boarding zone on pull out stops (such as those along Atlantic) then the bus can get under the edge so there is no water effect at all.

Dry in, dry out, dry in the seat while you wait, just add tinted shade glass and everyone is happy.  


Ocklawaha
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Lunican on March 07, 2008, 08:28:21 AM
Quote
JTA driving for bus shelter support

At last week’s Downtown Development Review Board meeting, JTA made yet another pitch to start installing new bus shelters by the dozens all over Jacksonville. While the presentation was well-received and makes financial sense, there is still plenty of opposition to the concept.

Much of the opposition centers on unanswered questions: Where will the shelters be located and who will advertise on the them?

However, the biggest hold up is the City’s sign ordinance. Two years ago, City Council member Art Shad sponsored legislation seeking a waiver of the City’s sign ordinance. That waiver would allow JTA to sell advertising on the new shelters — a key component to having them paid for, built and maintained by a private company as opposed to using tax dollars that don’t currently exist.

Full Article:
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=49581
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on March 07, 2008, 08:53:34 AM
I think everyone can agree that additional bus shelters are needed.  If no one trust JTA's plans, then introduce tried and tested alternative solutions.  Maybe the JEDC, DVI or whoever should be proactive and come up with an alternative shelter design that works for both parties.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: gatorback on March 08, 2008, 03:50:23 PM
City council members should restructure DVI’s budget bringing the salaries down to 10% of total funding and appropriate the difference to something worthwhile like a these shelters.  Or, do you think that the shelters would just become homes to the “permanent shelter challenged?”
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Jason on March 10, 2008, 01:41:37 PM
It's the ROOF fellas! Today, we are so far removed from a transit mobile society, we have fogotten passenger comfort and design in the process. It's all about community design standards and the public be damned. I think we can do both and do it well. How about you guys get out your crayons on this...???

I don't like the roof on about 68% of the new Transit Shelters I see. Back in the Day, all transportation shelters sported "butterfly" roofs. Meaning, the roof is shaped like a "V". This design works for trains, trolleys and buses, as well as autos. It sheds the water to a center rib, hence into down spouts and out to the curb or ditch. A vehicle can nest up under the edge of the roof and board passengers without ANY waterfall effect on the patrons. If the reach is long enough, such as a couple of feet over the boarding zone on pull out stops (such as those along Atlantic) then the bus can get under the edge so there is no water effect at all.

Dry in, dry out, dry in the seat while you wait, just add tinted shade glass and everyone is happy.  


Ocklawaha


Our crayons have been out on this issue. 

Here's the thread...  http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,778.0.html

I remember seeing "MikeMiller" lurking on this thread when it was active... maybe he picked up some ideas?
Title: JTA bus shelter proposal may be on the move
Post by: Steve on March 14, 2008, 10:05:42 AM
by Max Marbut

Staff Writer

It’s an issue that’s been stagnating on City Council committee agendas since June 2005 without much – if any – progress, but if events of the past week are any indication, that could change.

At last week’s Downtown Development Review Board meeting, JTA representatives made a presentation concerning the proposal to increase the number of shelters at bus stops by allowing advertising on the shelters. Tuesday afternoon, City Council member Warren Jones held a meeting with some of his fellow Council members, the JTA’s general counsel and opponents of the advertising-based plan.


http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=49629
Title: Re: JTA bus shelter proposal may be on the move
Post by: Steve on March 14, 2008, 10:07:41 AM
Quote
[JTA Spokesperson Mike] Miller said developers have been eager to cooperate with mass transit enhancements and cited St. Johns Town Center as an example of a transit-friendly design.

Which part, the giant parking lot in front of Target, or the huge setback of all of the Fast Food restaraunts along Town Center Parkway, which serve as outparcels for the strip malls?
Title: Re: JTA bus shelter proposal may be on the move
Post by: Jason on March 14, 2008, 10:15:55 AM
Its good news to see something moving on this.  City hall seems to be listening to our comments and suggestions.  It seems that this site has become an unpaid city consultant.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: mikemiller on March 14, 2008, 11:52:25 AM
The JTA appreciates all the comments on this post regarding ads on bus shelters. Just as an FYI...CM Warren Jones, who now chairs the Rules Committee, will again be deferring the JTA shelter sign ordinance waiver bill  on Mon., 3/17 at 10 am. He has asked me to attend the meeting and supply the committee with locations of all our bus stops (6500 total) and those with shelters (400 locations). As to the Adopt a Shelter program proposed by Atty Bill Brinton, we have researched over 20 transit agencies that feature an Adopt A Stop program. In all cases, the "adoption" was to get civic organizations, commercial extablishments, Boy Scout/Girl Scout troops, church groups and schools to volunteer to keep an "adopted shelter" free of litter, washed, cleaned of graffiti and emptying garbage. The JTA is not at all opposed to the Adopt A Shelter program proposed by Mr. Brinton and his associates. The issue we have is that we have not seen a business plan developed that will offset the capital, maintenance, repair and insurance costs that are currently taxpayer paid. Each shelter costs approx. $4-6,000 (not including pad & installation) for a basic shelter similar to those already installed, and approx. $1,000 per yr. per shelter to maintain (not including repair, replacement, and insurance). The JTA would like to put up at least 50 new shelters per yr. That would total approx. $450,000 per yr for capital expenses and an additional $50,000 per yr. for maintenance. Current public dollars are not available to be used for both this purpose and to buy new transit equipment at the same time. We are forced to prioritize those available federal dollars. It isn't that we are enamored with advertising. In fact, very little comes back to the agency. It's just that if we can improve the transit experience for our riders and entice additional riders to use transit, everyone would be better off. As the Times Union pointed out in a supportive editorial when this bill was first introduced, "Council members have a chance to help their constituents without using scarce tax dollars." (6/1/05)
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on March 14, 2008, 12:10:04 PM
Mike, does JTA have examples of what the proposed bus shelters will look like?  Does JTA have control over how large the advertisement display will be?  I don't know if there's a median ground with the "no billboard" crowd on this issue, but JTA could gain points if proposed shelters are more in line with shelter "B" as opposed to shelter "A".

Shelter A
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1104/1039930223_e02b67018d.jpg)

Shelter B
(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/11/07/nyregion/07busshelter.span.jpg)
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Steve on March 14, 2008, 02:47:52 PM
Admin Note - since we had two threads talking about the same thing (my fault - I created the second one), I've merged the threads.  Sorry about any confusion
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Coolyfett on March 15, 2008, 02:09:41 PM
Has anybody seen the "bus stop" on Roosevelt near NAS? It is on the opposite side about half a mile south from the main gate. There is no sidewalk on the street and is between railroad tracks and the six lane highway that is Roosevelt. It is literally a small wood bench and would be damn near impossible for a person to reach. Not surprising, I have never seen one person at this bus stop.

"Those People" on 17 don't like buses. "Those People" don't want regular people in their part of town. That bench you saw on 17 is not the only one. From Collins all the way to that bridge that connects Ortega to Roosevelt Mall has about 5 bus stops........seriously. "Those People" don't care for rapid transit like the people on this site do. "Those People" control a lot of what goes on in Jacksonville  :(.  Nothing is done by accident. Same thing can be said for San Jose and some parts of University. "Those People" don't want you there, they will not give you easy access.  :-\
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: Coolyfett on March 15, 2008, 02:16:17 PM
I think Peyton should write a "Learning from China" article for us...

(not a joke)

May not be a joke...but still quite funny.
Title: JTA Still Pursuing Bus Shelters
Post by: Steve on May 28, 2009, 11:36:38 AM
Since 2005, JTA has been trying to form a public-private partnership that would allow the transportation authority to install hundreds of bus shelters all over town. Those shelters would be built and maintained by a private company that would also sell advertising on the structures.

For four years, JTA has battled the City’s sign ordinance and the perception that such shelters would contribute to visual pollution. Today, JTA is once again seeking to add shelters and it’s armed with two things: a California federal court ruling and a young, progressive-thinking City Council that realizes the value of public-private partnerships.

According to JTA spokesman Mike Miller, JTA has 6,600 stops across Jacksonville’s 840 square miles. Of those stops, only 400 have shelters. That means 6,200 consist of little more than a metal pole in the ground — something Miller, and now Council member Warren Jones, says is no good especially on a July afternoon with temperatures soaring and the ever-present threat of thunderstorms.


http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=52459
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: thelakelander on May 28, 2009, 11:41:41 AM
Hopefully, they'll have better success this time around.  We have to get past this thing of drawing lines in the sand and outright opposing improvements without having solid alternatives to offer.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: archiphreak on July 14, 2009, 09:08:20 AM
I agree with both points of view here.  On one hand commercial bus shelters can give way to the kinds of "predatory" ads that you don't want to see, but then again, the alternative is to have either A) no shelters at all with people standing in the rain waiting for a bus that may not come which will drive down ridership or B) a makeshift shelter like the one posted above (see cinder blocks and 2x8).  Now, do I think that opening up bus shelter advertisements would send this city into a 'signage free for all"?  NO.  Because there are ways to regulate the use of signage, i.e. "only on/at approved locations" or "upon final review by some such board or other".  There are ways to curtail the "ugliness" that could ensue.  The problem with all these cities that have allowed all the smut and can't seem to do anything about it is because they didn't think of these things when they wrote their laws.  We CAN.  It is not a 1st Amendment infringement to stipulate where and how different types of signage/advertisement can be placed.  That's simple regulation.  Obviously there is an up and down side to that, but lets face facts - without some kind of regulation it would be a free for all like other cities. 
Also, I see a huge problem with "adopt a shelter" programs.  If it is put outside the regulation of the city what is to stop "smut companies" from "adopting" a shelter?  It effectively becomes their property and they can advertise however they wish causing the same problem that we want to avoid. 
The simple truth is this: we need better shelters.  We need more riders on public transportation.  We need a more progressive, modern public transportation system.  The easiest way to get to where we NEED to be is to offer ways for JTA to generate revenue outside of the $.75 you pay to get on the bus.  Public transportation is a business like any other.  This is a free market society (for now) so lets take advantage of it.  Let it do what it does best.  With proper regulation and enforcement we can avoid the same pitfalls of other larger cities.  Like when I was in NYC 2 years ago on the second floor of the M&M store looking at a 50' tall ad of two nearly naked women from a local gentlemen's club.  THAT we should avoid.
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: coredumped on July 16, 2009, 05:58:07 PM
This topic is back on JTA's site:
http://jtafla.com/News/showPage.aspx?news=59
Title: Re: Bus Shelters Done Right
Post by: bdoon51 on September 22, 2010, 12:28:18 PM
Here, midway between DC and Baltmore we have a planned community (Rouse Company) where design is strictly controlled. They also control 3 of the 5 County Council seats and did not want ads on bus shelters.
I emphathize with them...I hate advertising. However many of the McDonalds workers or landscapers or retail clerks who cannot afford to live in Columbia ,the planned communtiy , take transit to work. Folks in this town do not want to wait 20 minutes for their Big Mac and want a well-groomed appearance for their town, want their children or Seniors well taken care of in daycare and want enough clerks in stores but do not care if these workers coming from less well-heeled communities wait in the rain or snow because there is not enough money in the local gov budget to install shelters everywhere they should be. Politically it is a very liberal town but when it comes to helping out the working poor in their own neighborhood...it is NIMBY...not in my back yard.
Shelter advertising opens the door to more onerous ads etc only if you let it. Folks draw boundary lines all the time. These folks servicing the weathier communities do not get living wages to buy cars and actually have much lower carbon footprints than the folks they service but those same folks deny them the most rudiment comfort and safety in their trips to succor themselves, the wealthier. :(