The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => The Burbs => Northside => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on May 14, 2010, 06:01:41 AM

Title: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on May 14, 2010, 06:01:41 AM
Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/860003169_9BfGZ-M.jpg)

A $2.3 million JTA project to improve the Kings Road corridor in the vicinity of Edward Waters College is now under construction.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-may-kings-road-pedestrian-enhancement-project-underway-
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: TheProfessor on May 14, 2010, 09:35:32 AM
I doubt that they will put bike lanes there since it looks like it is part of US1 and it is not a long stretch of road.  Any other enhancement would be great for that area though.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 14, 2010, 10:24:52 AM
The densitys on Kings Road (a former Jacksonville Traction Company car route) are incredible... They SCREAM success in mass transit and are ripe for some major transit overhauls.

(http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/north-little-rock-argenta-district-david-mcghee.jpg)
If the new Heritage Streetcar line were to access Riverside via Bay and Myrtle (the original route) it would set up a perfect link for a Myrtle - Durkeeville and/or Myrtle - Kings Road route.

(http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/University_Heights_train_station.jpg/250px-University_Heights_train_station.jpg)
When the "S" line is rebuilt, a station at Kings Road would make downtown - EWC a simple ride away.

(http://sf.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10_29/brt_corridor_after.jpg)
King's is dense for miles out, has any thought been given to using IT as a BRT route?


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: thelakelander on May 14, 2010, 11:29:11 AM
I doubt that they will put bike lanes there since it looks like it is part of US1 and it is not a long stretch of road.  Any other enhancement would be great for that area though.

Although the streetscape is a short one, I was referring to the entire corridor from MLK Parkway to I-95.  MLK sets up as a perfect bypass to possibly remove/relocate the entire US 1 designation.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Kay on May 14, 2010, 04:49:44 PM
What are they actually going to do?  I've never seen the FDOT or JTA make roads more pedestrian friendly.  Their "improvements" are always about moving more cars faster and safer.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 14, 2010, 10:14:31 PM
I've never seen the FDOT or JTA make roads more pedestrian friendly.  Their "improvements" are always about moving more cars faster and safer.

I must respectfully disagree....while most of the improvements are about moving cars, FDOT was light years ahead of other states in including sidewalks and bike lanes in their road projects.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 14, 2010, 11:32:21 PM
I've never seen the FDOT or JTA make roads more pedestrian friendly.  Their "improvements" are always about moving more cars faster and safer.

I must respectfully disagree....while most of the improvements are about moving cars, FDOT was light years ahead of other states in including sidewalks and bike lanes in their road projects.

Wow, impressive TU, light years ahead of other states and century's behind Bogota, Medellin, Cali, Buenaventura, Manazales, Santa Marta, Cartagena, etc.. etc...

F@*KIN "3Rd world" planning puts us to shame...


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 15, 2010, 11:19:28 PM
the problem Ock is our love affair with the automobile...and guess what, the biggest % growth in auto ownership is in places like China, India, and some South American countries.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 16, 2010, 12:24:44 AM
the problem Ock is our love affair with the automobile...and guess what, the biggest % growth in auto ownership is in places like China, India, and some South American countries.


I won't dispute the auto growth, however South America treats it for what it really is... A LUXURY... and brother do they ever tax it that way! Gasoline is taxed the same way, thus I would look, but never owned a car in Colombia, Panama, Suriname or Brasil... and never waited more then seconds for mass transit!



OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 16, 2010, 07:44:46 AM
stephen I agree and would offer the 9B and the proposed Outer Belt Way as classic examples! Could also mention the Nacotee Parkway currently being built which is another plum being built with taxpayer dollars! At some point the lights have to go on...........maybe the proposed Amendment 4 will slow things down to the point where the validity of any road project will have to survive voter approval?
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: buckethead on May 16, 2010, 09:13:11 AM
I like my car. The rest of the country feels the same. (even if they like the idea of mass transit too.)
Title: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Miss Fixit on May 16, 2010, 09:34:06 AM
I like my car, too, but I'd like to park it in the garage during the week and ride a trolley/take a train to work.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: thelakelander on May 16, 2010, 09:48:40 AM
I like my truck but I also like comfortable sidewalks, mass transit, architecture and density found in vibrant urban environments.  There's no reason a city shouldn't be designed for the people who live in it regardless of how a individual may feel about a car.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 16, 2010, 09:52:49 AM
I think the Nocatee Parkway is being built by the developer of Nocatee.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 16, 2010, 10:56:57 AM
Mr Charles...........I sure do hope so! Tax Dollars to allow an ingress into an undeveloped area is just plain wrong! Make 9B a Toll Road and let it pay for itself (eventually!) Then those who need to use it, can pay for it! Those of us who don't, can go another route! Same thing for the Outer Beltway Project!
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 16, 2010, 03:13:00 PM
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S_BGYtDJntI/AAAAAAAACas/Kr2d__cA32A/s800/Telegraph%20Avenue%20East%20Bay%20Express.jpg)
US?

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_bQsuhPJduqQ/S_BGYmGsryI/AAAAAAAACaw/as2R1MOuRHY/s800/Streetcar_S-ArizonaU-streetcar-thumb.jpg)
THEM!

What is Jacksonville thinking?

Mass Transit may never be as convenient as the family Edsel, there are factors that cannot be overcome with today's technologies. Rain, Heat, Shelter, AC, bare blistering bus benches, trash, route permanence, smells, 45 minute headways, door to door, fare, these are just a few of the things a transit manager MUST consider. From that list there are only a few items that we can change and a couple we might even toy with. Rain - Heat - AC? Except for certain firefighting uniforms, I'm not convinced clothing with built in AC is readily available, so one must be intrepid through Rain, Heat, Cold, Gloom of Night... But let's revisit that for a moment, we are in the deep South, why not AC in larger stations such as Kings Avenue, Regency, Avenues, Central, Town Center, and Rosa Parks? Otherwise roof tops, seats, frequency=headways, clean, close by, these are things we CAN effect to near perfection. Route permanence not only sells transit, it builds corridors as people become familiar with the stops and shops along the way. This permanence factor CAN NOT be touched with a highway vehicle, and thus it cannot build Transit Oriented Development as rail vehicles can.

Part of the problem in Jacksonville is the "bare bones transit is for the poor, the Black, the Hispanic, and the liberal," mindset at JTA and CITY HALL. The reason for this is it has largely become truth over the years from 1936 (when we retired streetcars) until today. I'd dare say in 1930 for example, there was probably not a man, woman or child, of any race or station in life that didn't use the streetcars. Why? You won't sell me a line that they couldn't get automobiles, as there were more auto manufacturers and more choices then we have today. The demon is habit, the generation before 1930 had grown up on horseback, and rail was a magic carpet of clean speed and comfort. Electric Rail was one of the wonders of the world.  Transit was not only okay, but in style, only the best and brightest lived near the car lines.  Jump forward 80 years and look where that flexible wonder, the motor bus has gotten us. Consider that JTA want's to build Bus Rapid Transit more to make a statement then to service a need. If the concern were really about service, we would be laying rails, skyway beams, and planning a COMPLIMENTARY BRT system.

The transit focused synergy created by doing transit right will lead to the connectivity, walkabilty, and economic surge we so desire.



OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: stjr on May 17, 2010, 01:07:18 AM
I must respectfully disagree....while most of the improvements are about moving cars, FDOT was light years ahead of other states in including sidewalks and bike lanes in their road projects.

Tufsu, LOL.  I had to check my calender to make sure it wasn't April Fools Day.

If FDOT is years ahead, I would hate to see what years behind is.  OK, if you say they are, I'll take your word for it.

But, I will add it is far, far, short of what it needs and should be.  Those skinny little unprotected bike lanes along 4 and 6 lane state highways don't look like the best solutions for safe biking even if they meet some transportation planner's standards (just using that common sense - I can't help myself).  Would you let your kid ride in one of those bike lanes, if not yourself?

How about building commutable bike TRAILS that are isolated from traffic and go for miles.  Why don't we build one of those jersey barriers along the outer edges of an interstate ROW and give bikes a five to ten foot swath in each direction for their own version of an interstate?  Hey, we can start with 9B since its just beginning construction  ;)

P.S. How many dollars of DOT's budget are allocated to autos versus bikes and pedestrians?  Over 95%?  Whatever it is, I think that says more about DOT's relative priorities than anything else.


Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 17, 2010, 09:51:49 AM
stjr.............your right and tufsu is not with the program, safetywise! I can picture him now .....riding his bicycle along I-95 and nothing between him and all of that traffic!
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Doctor_K on May 18, 2010, 11:33:26 AM
Aren't bikes prohibited from the interstate?
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: stjr on May 18, 2010, 12:16:02 PM
Aren't bikes prohibited from the interstate?

Dr, not what I am saying.  I am suggesting a parallel pathway segregated from the interstate by a barrier and at the edge of its ROW which is typically far wider than the paved road itself.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Mattius92 on May 18, 2010, 12:44:57 PM
Isn't there plenty of side roads and alleys that are much safer, funner and much more enjoyable then riding next to a busy highway or road. Why do we need to spend money on building bikeways next to highways when we can just build them along less busy roads.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 18, 2010, 02:13:53 PM
stjr.............your right and tufsu is not with the program, safetywise! I can picture him now .....riding his bicycle along I-95 and nothing between him and all of that traffic!

do some research on implementation of sidewalks, bicycle lanes, and trails by state DOTs and then let me know how FDOT compares to others around the country.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 18, 2010, 02:15:07 PM
How about building commutable bike TRAILS that are isolated from traffic and go for miles.  Why don't we build one of those jersey barriers along the outer edges of an interstate ROW and give bikes a five to ten foot swath in each direction for their own version of an interstate?  Hey, we can start with 9B since its just beginning construction  ;)

take a look at the Suncoast Parkway...built by an arm of FDOT
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: thelakelander on May 18, 2010, 02:19:27 PM

(http://www.dep.state.fl.us/gwt/guide/regions/westcentral/trails/images/suncoast.jpg)
Quote
The Suncoast Trail is officially designated as part of Florida’s Statewide Greenways and Trails System. Opened in 2001, this non-motorized paved trail was developed as part of the Suncoast Parkway. Paralleling the parkway, the trail begins in northern Hillsborough County and proceeds north through Pasco and Hernando counties, traversing suburban, agricultural and natural areas. Throughout the trail, rest/interpretive areas illustrate historical significance, emphasize transitions between ecological communities and identify native species. Among the trail’s highlights is the segment adjacent to the Jay B. Starkey Wilderness Park. This section crosses various rivers and creeks, including the Anclote and Pithlachascotee, and provides views of beautiful natural communities. The Suncoast Trail will eventually serve as a key regional connector, linking to other projects such as the Good Neighbor Trail, the Upper Tampa Bay Trail and the Pinellas Trail.
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/gwt/guide/regions/westcentral/trails/suncoast.htm

(http://www.floridasturnpike.com/Photos/SuncoastTrail.jpg)
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Mattius92 on May 18, 2010, 02:34:01 PM
Now thats nice, just which road in Jax would we do such a thing.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 18, 2010, 03:20:39 PM
could be done with SR 9B...or even more likely, the future OIuter Beltway
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: thelakelander on May 18, 2010, 03:28:54 PM
Various forms could also be done along MLK Parkway east of I-95, Southside Blvd, Philips Highway, Roosevelt Blvd, North Main Street and a host of other existing highways with decent ROW.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: stjr on May 19, 2010, 01:36:36 AM
Talk is cheap.  Where's the beef?

Why does South Florida have this and we don't?  For a fraction of the JTB I-95 interchange, we could have these pathways along all our local stretches of expressways and interstates.

I suspect the various districts of FDOT have different approaches to their missions.  I was just in South Florida recently, and it was hard to believe that their state roads were built by the same agency as ours.  I am not saying they were better, just different.  What was noticeable was the vastly heavier landscaping on the non-interstate highways, including fully landscaped medians with large trees (not a mini-tree every 50 feet), and rows of large trees between sidewalks and the curb.  Some of that may be done by the local cities, but it's on state highways.  I have seen much the same in Savannah.  Drive the stretch of Abercorn street from the riverfront south to the suburbs to see one of the fullest tree canopies I have seen on an urban 4 lane road.  We could do a lot more in this area.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Mattius92 on May 19, 2010, 12:31:23 PM
Naww, the FDOT and COJ will just put down more useless Palm Trees. I am was appalled when I was riding down I-295 N (the part north of I-10), the other day and I seen all these new palm trees they put up. I was like come on, like we need more palm trees.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on May 19, 2010, 12:43:01 PM
Landscaping is poor through out most of North Florida and Palm trees are not useless.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Mattius92 on May 19, 2010, 12:43:53 PM
Use???
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: cline on May 19, 2010, 01:53:06 PM
Quote
Talk is cheap.  Where's the beef?

Why does South Florida have this and we don't?  For a fraction of the JTB I-95 interchange, we could have these pathways along all our local stretches of expressways and interstates.

There's a public meeting tomorrow night (May 20).  I suggest you show up and voice your concerns.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 19, 2010, 01:56:13 PM
Where?
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: cline on May 19, 2010, 02:02:12 PM
Alternatives Public Hearing
Thursday, May 20, 2010
4:30 to 7:00 PM

Best Western Southpoint
4660 Salisbury Road
Jacksonville, Florida 32256

Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 19, 2010, 03:29:37 PM
If FDOT is years ahead, I would hate to see what years behind is.  OK, if you say they are, I'll take your word for it.

P.S. How many dollars of DOT's budget are allocated to autos versus bikes and pedestrians?  Over 95%?  Whatever it is, I think that says more about DOT's relative priorities than anything else.[/b]

Well considering that currently 95% of trips in our area are made by car, FDOT would say they are responding to existing conditions.

btw...you've mentioned the I-95 bridge and the lack of ped/bike improvements....consider that they were a partner in developing the RAM space underneath the bridge...not exactly "your typical DOT project"
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 19, 2010, 05:00:17 PM
Much thanks cline!
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: buckethead on May 19, 2010, 05:02:21 PM

Well considering that currently 95% of trips in our area are made by car, FDOT would say they are responding to existing conditions.

To be fair, there is no real alternative to automotive transportation.

How long would it take by JTA bus to get from Firestone and 103rd St to a doctor's office on State Rd 13 in Mandarin, for instance?

3 hours? 4 hours? DON'T miss a connector.

By car, 17 minutes?
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 19, 2010, 05:09:37 PM
N they say there is no demand for LR or Trolley's............this is according to JTA's head hockey puck!
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: stjr on May 19, 2010, 06:00:14 PM
Well considering that currently 95% of trips in our area are made by car, FDOT would say they are responding to existing conditions.

Consider that 95% of trips are made by car because our transportation oligopoly, FDOT and JTA, refuse to give us an effective range of alternatives.  It's not like the public has choices they can truly make.  It also doesn't help that government distorts the cost vs. value proposition leading to less than free market driven decisions regarding transportation.

Here is a thought: Divide our transportation dollars into 5 equally funded and self-sustaining business units of (1) roads, (2) rail/terrestrial mass transit,(3) planes, (4) pedestrian/bicycle/other non-motorized, and (5) boats/ships.  Let the business units compete on a level playing field for survival.  Just as most businesses do when selecting which products to carry/sell.  The business units would be permitted to do joint ventures with the other business units if they see a benefit to creating mutually beneficial networks and feeder systems.  I suspect roads won't have 95% of the traffic.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 19, 2010, 07:51:26 PM
Gee fellas! Only 95%............I would have thought 99%! The other one percent .....bus riders! stjr......either one or the other or you could allways "ankle express" providing you had sufficient time for both halves of the trip! JTA does not see the possibilities since they can not see beyond their concrete noses!
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 19, 2010, 08:36:44 PM
Why does South Florida have this and we don't?  For a fraction of the JTB I-95 interchange, we could have these pathways along all our local stretches of expressways and interstates.

I suspect the various districts of FDOT have different approaches to their missions.  

not really....each FDOT district spends money based on priorities defined by the areas themselves, but their missions are basically the same...the main thing in South Florida is that the road system (and land) is pretty much built out...so the improvements are different....and many local governments have agreed to chip in to fund significant landscaping on facilities.

btw...Suncoast Pkwy is north of Tampa (hardly south Florida unless you ask USF)...it was built by Florida's Turnpike Enterprise, under the theory that tolls would cover all construction and mantenance costs....plus the trail was done in order to get environmental folks to not oppose the project.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: tufsu1 on May 19, 2010, 08:40:51 PM
Here is a thought: Divide our transportation dollars into 5 equally funded and self-sustaining business units of (1) roads, (2) rail/terrestrial mass transit,(3) planes, (4) pedestrian/bicycle/other non-motorized, and (5) boats/ships.

Are you suggesting diverting even more gas tax revenues and airport departure fees to other modes? 
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: stjr on May 19, 2010, 09:17:27 PM
Here is a thought: Divide our transportation dollars into 5 equally funded and self-sustaining business units of (1) roads, (2) rail/terrestrial mass transit,(3) planes, (4) pedestrian/bicycle/other non-motorized, and (5) boats/ships.

Are you suggesting diverting even more gas tax revenues and airport departure fees to other modes?  


Tufsu, government funding is and always be one big political shell game.  I don't care where government raises the money, the politicos will direct it wherever they think it is politically expedient.  General funds subsidize roads so there is no reason the process can't be reversed.  We just saw the City Council seriously consider redirecting historic preservation funds, and now park money, to a parking lot.  The lottery was supposed to fund education - not!  Social security taxes go to subsidize our deficit, not fund social security for the long haul.

I say take money from wherever and spend it on the priorities of the day.  If we need to improve education over new $100 million interchanges, $200 million 9B, or $1.8 billion Outer Beltway, so be it.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 19, 2010, 09:26:29 PM
stjr............I think you may be on to something! I see no reason why that could not be done in that manner! I mean, Johnny and his musical books seems to come up with money for his pet projects so I can see just where that might work! Only issue I would have is how do you oversee what gets what? Some kind of oversight would have to take charge and I don't know about you................but I am having more and more issues with Idiots deciding for me...........like City of Jacksonville and the buffoons running things now..........no vision and damn sure no plan! Close only works with horseshoes and hand grenades!
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: thelakelander on May 19, 2010, 09:30:19 PM

Well considering that currently 95% of trips in our area are made by car, FDOT would say they are responding to existing conditions.

To be fair, there is no real alternative to automotive transportation.

How long would it take by JTA bus to get from Firestone and 103rd St to a doctor's office on State Rd 13 in Mandarin, for instance?

3 hours? 4 hours? DON'T miss a connector.

By car, 17 minutes?

There is an alternative, we just have to change our land use and infrastructure investment patterns.  The key is finding a way to reduce every day routine trips.  Allowing for higher densities, mixed-use and investing more effort into establishing better pedestrian, bike and transit options are the things that must be done to get there.  Until that happens, we'll stay in this never ending death cycle of designing for the automobile instead of the people who call this city home.
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: CS Foltz on May 19, 2010, 09:33:15 PM
lake...........I concur! Having other options would be just hunky dorey by me, but there is no other game in town! Until we have something else......the concrete clowns will rule!
Title: Re: Kings Road Pedestrian Enhancement Project Underway
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 19, 2010, 10:29:39 PM
A 5 way equal division sounds great to me too... on the surface, but it would NEVER work! Imagine the Federal budget has been so tilted to highway over the years that all of the rest have fought over maybe 15%. Even that has been very lopsided as Air has gotten the lions share of most of it, while water and rail almost nothing. Pedestrians and bicycles have not even crossed DOT'S mind until the last couple of years.

So what happens is that those TRILLIONS spent on roads suddenly reduced to a couple Billion a year, we have so much pavement and so many bridges in place that we would fall woefully short on even patching the pot holes! The Minnesota Bridge failure would become common place throughout the USA.  Meanwhile, the waterway boys and girls would be able to channel and dam every waterway from Hogan's Creek to the Nile. Bullet trains would be an easy build and towns like Lulu, Elwood and Two Egg Florida would be demanding terminals. Oddly, of all of the modes, perhaps Airlines and Airports would feel the least change as they are the closest to 20% of the take today.

Perhaps Charles or TUFSU has the exact numbers but it's close to Highway 88%, Air 10%, Rail 1.5%, water .5%. The only way to do it would be a 100 year plan, with major gains and losses every 10 years until parity was reached.



OCKLAWAHA