The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Urban Neighborhoods => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on January 27, 2010, 04:18:52 AM

Title: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on January 27, 2010, 04:18:52 AM
Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/774604804_PYara-M.jpg)

For the last year, the City of Jacksonville has been working with Zyscovich Architects of Miami to create a vision plan for the Urban Core.  Metro Jacksonville offers a sneak peak of the vision that will be presented to the public on Thursday, January 28, 2010.  


Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-urban-core-vision-plan-to-be-unveiled
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Bizzyboy on January 27, 2010, 05:09:17 AM
might as well throw that in the can. we all know how good jax is with a plan.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: blizz01 on January 27, 2010, 07:18:18 AM
Wow - Shrimp boats at the old Ford Assembly Plant?
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: fsu813 on January 27, 2010, 07:27:03 AM
So is a "vision plan" just sketches, models, and what not to help the policy makers better visualize how things might look?

Or are is it a specific plan that is to be carried out?

Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2010, 07:31:58 AM
It includes things to help policy makers carry out a specific plan.  Its a pretty significant document which is why its not posted here, page by page.  You can use the link at the end of the article to access the actual draft of the plan on the city's website. 
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 27, 2010, 07:32:10 AM
Wow...
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: aaapolito on January 27, 2010, 07:45:03 AM
I hope that the City can use this plan to make downtown a better place.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: copperfiend on January 27, 2010, 08:07:45 AM
Wow. This is pretty cool to look at.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Dog Walker on January 27, 2010, 08:15:14 AM
Look carefully at most of the  pictures.  Notice something?  No cars shown in most of them and no on street parking.  That's why everything looks so good.

So part of the "vision" is to reduce the number of cars in the urban core by 90%?
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: strider on January 27, 2010, 08:30:01 AM
I like that they used the old coca cola building as a major point of interest.  And I also like that most every drawing shows people crossing on the red.  Adds a sense of realism. Would be interesting to read the entire thing when I get time.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: billy on January 27, 2010, 08:47:40 AM
It's good to put emphasis on potential of areas like:
Springfield Warehouse District
Commodore Point
Ford Assembly Building
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: copperfiend on January 27, 2010, 08:52:44 AM
Look carefully at most of the  pictures.  Notice something?

One thing I do notice is the plan shows buildings where buildings once stood. Somehow this whole thing could have been avoided.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: hanjin1 on January 27, 2010, 08:59:18 AM
I like it, but i'll believe it when I see it
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Overstreet on January 27, 2010, 09:00:27 AM
Interesting picture of Forsyth & Main Streets. I take it the photo is existing and the rendering is their idea. Does that mean they want the city to bulid two highrises behind the two story parking garage?

Working shrimp boats at the old Ford plant might be difficult to produce if the shrimp industry keeps declining. They will probalby promise to build a parking garage for the auto traffic and never deliver it.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Overstreet on January 27, 2010, 09:03:02 AM
Notice too that they bring shrimp boats in and take the ships and tugs away from the Stadium District/Commodore's Point.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Rocshaboc on January 27, 2010, 09:03:26 AM
Wishful thinking with this city's history. I hope I'm wrong because I'm so sick and tired of wishing
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: SarahEHarper on January 27, 2010, 09:10:20 AM
I'd like to know as a resident & small business owner what I can do to make this happen. Jacksonville is a great city, I am determined to do my part.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: jason_contentdg on January 27, 2010, 09:12:19 AM
Can't wait to see more...it looks like a good presentation.

I wonder if Carl's is happy he's going be in a newly constructed 4 story building at the corner of 8th and main, as shown in the perspective.  Of course that means demolishing a structure built in 1928 and going above the 35' height restriction...but it's a nice drawing.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2010, 09:16:05 AM
Interesting picture of Forsyth & Main Streets. I take it the photo is existing and the rendering is their idea. Does that mean they want the city to bulid two highrises behind the two story parking garage?

I attended an Urban Core Vision presentation a few months ago.  At the time, they were mentioning that the city should seek to better utilize property in the urban core and downtown.  This sketch (building/density replaces parking garage structure) was used as an example of how a major centralized downtown block could be better utilized, with vision.

Quote
Working shrimp boats at the old Ford plant might be difficult to produce if the shrimp industry keeps declining. They will probalby promise to build a parking garage for the auto traffic and never deliver it.

We'll have a river full of more salt after its dredged for the port expansion (not saying this has anything to do with the sketches drawn).
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2010, 09:17:47 AM
Can't wait to see more...it looks like a good presentation.

I wonder if Carl's is happy he's going be in a newly constructed 4 story building at the corner of 8th and main, as shown in the perspective.  Of course that means demolishing a structure built in 1928 and going above the 35' height restriction...but it's a nice drawing.

I noticed that while cropping the image last night in photoshop.  Btw, on Main you can go 45'.  The original 3rd & Main plan was four stories but was eventually reduced because of community concern and market feasibility.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: jason_contentdg on January 27, 2010, 09:27:56 AM
^ Ahh, yes...I was thinking about 8th street where the height restriction was 35'.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 27, 2010, 09:37:35 AM
For those who like to claim that the City has "no vision, no plan"....this is a Vision.

That said, a lot of it is pie in the sky and will take decades to be realized....the next step is to whittle this down into implementation plans....first is the 20-year Comprehensive Plan....and then 5-year increments.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2010, 09:40:18 AM
Yes, this is where the public will be needed to influence political support, imo.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: CS Foltz on January 27, 2010, 10:00:39 AM
Gentlemen...........lip service has been paid to the public for years! We have plenty of experts and consultants telling us what should be and how it should be but we still don't have what we need to grow! Still no rail, no mass transit, other than JTA'a vision of wall to wall concrete filled with BRT's so until I see something in writing than I can sink my teeth into...........talk is cheap, show me something! Nice to know that Johnny is starting to get the message, but I still have reservations with 18 months or so to go, we are just now discussing what it would take to get downtown up and running and that is not even beginning to discuss all of the issue's that face us.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2010, 10:06:37 AM
^We have to hold our officials accountable.  That's something the general public in this city has not historically done, which is why lip service remains common.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Jason on January 27, 2010, 10:11:09 AM
Another great vision for Downtown.  The sad thing is that it will likely be tossed on a shelf somewhere and forgotten, especially when the next one comes out.

We all have our "visions" for downtown (I even did my own and posted them a while back) but the PLAN is what will move us out of the Big Ideas stage and into the future.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Captain Zissou on January 27, 2010, 10:11:18 AM
This is pretty pie in the sky/ long term, but it could be a steering guideline for short term decisions.

I think developing commodore point and the warehouse district is a great idea, albeit 20 years in the future.  Expanding the Hogan's creek park area is crucial for Springfield and downtown as a livable neighborhood.  That garage on the back of the Crowne Plaza has always upset me, it should interact with the riverwalk more. 

The main theme I get from this presentation is clustering development and focusing on creating nodes of activity throughout the core, which I think is the right way to go.  Also, notice the skyway runs to the stadium and terminates in 5points at what looks like Annie Lytle.  If we accomplished these things, we'd kick the tar out of our current peer cities, and our current self.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: fsujax on January 27, 2010, 10:15:44 AM
Yep. Planners can have the best ideas ever! but until there is political will to actually implement or move forward with something, nothing will happen! We have no lack of ideas, great plans, wills and vision, but we lack the political power to do it. Even the business community here doesn't fully embrace these ideas. Believe me if the Carl Cannons, Haskells, Rummels, Foley's of the city would begin to emphasize these plans we would see things change drastically.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: heights unknown on January 27, 2010, 10:23:48 AM
I'll believe it when I see it.  As someone else said, when it comes to plans and vision, Jax' track record is certainly poor to nil.

"HU"
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: JagFan07 on January 27, 2010, 10:29:02 AM
A vision is one thing, paying for it is another. A question to those in the know, do we have the resources available to pull something like this off? Maybe a second Better Jacksonville Plan..say a Better Downtown Plan?

Call me a pragmatist, but I always look to the costs verse benefit. I can see the benefit here but just don't see how we can cover the costs.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2010, 10:40:10 AM
This plan is for the Urban Core Planning District (most of preconsolidated COJ, not just DT).  There are also vision plans in the works for the Southeast and Arlington Planning Districts.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Ocklawaha on January 27, 2010, 10:44:05 AM
THANK GOD! The Skyway is at least drawn out, amazing that if we would just ask, it would be funded 100%!  So "Let's not ask!"

OH MY GOD! Not again! So WHERE ARE THE STREETCARS? The one thing that would drive all of this redevelopment is missing, as usual, from the color ball of Jacksonvilles dreams.  The most near-sighted city on earth...  I think we at MJ are starting to understand how the Biblical Moses must have felt.



OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: reednavy on January 27, 2010, 10:46:10 AM
If only we could learn from OKC's success with the MAPS series of projects, now on it's 3rd set of projects. A voter-approved temporary few cents hike in the sales tax paid for all the projects such as the AT&T Bricktown Ballpark, Ford Center, and fixed the COX Convention Center. Now, MAPS 3 will be the most ambitious yet at $777mil and will bring a streetcar line to downtown, a 70-acre central park that will connect the Oklahoma River( North Candian River) to downtown once the Crosstown is moved, a new convention center, and improve sidewalks to name a few.

I'd be more than willing to pay a few cents more on sales tax, as being from Murfreesboro at 9.75%, 7% is cheap and just a .1-.4% increase would do a world of good for the city in helping get this plan and others on the fast track.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: konstantconsumer on January 27, 2010, 10:49:18 AM
beautiful, but doesn anyone actually believe this will occur in their lifetime?  i'm 28, and fairly certain that it won't in mine.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: fsujax on January 27, 2010, 10:50:41 AM
It would make perfect sense for the City to take JTA's transit vision plan, the Mayor's plan for a new convention center, and all of these other plans for Downtown Urban Core and try to sell it to the citizens of Jacksonville as Delaney did with the BJP. Get the Business community involved! Call it BJP2, more transit friendly and figure out how to get the suburban folks to support it. A great core can help all of Duval County! It may fail a few times, but eventually people would support it I believe.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 27, 2010, 11:00:10 AM
exactly fsujax....and that will be the first job of the new Mayor!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: fsujax on January 27, 2010, 11:02:54 AM
Dang. Maybe I should run...on this plan alone!!!! haha
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: civil42806 on January 27, 2010, 11:46:02 AM
Utter nonsense, this plan might as well be shelved now.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Overstreet on January 27, 2010, 11:49:34 AM
It would make perfect sense for the City to take JTA's transit vision plan, the Mayor's plan for a new convention center, and all of these other plans for Downtown Urban Core and try to sell it to the citizens of Jacksonville as Delaney did with the BJP. Get the Business community involved! Call it BJP2, more transit friendly and figure out how to get the suburban folks to support it. A great core can help all of Duval County! It may fail a few times, but eventually people would support it I believe.

Delaney went to the construction contractors in town collecting money for those ads. There was an assumption of more work for local contractors. Economy and experience with that program might not raise as much money this time around.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: reednavy on January 27, 2010, 12:20:27 PM
Utter nonsense, this plan might as well be shelved now.
Yay positivity!

Did you even look through all the 130 pages of the presentation? I did, and found it interesting, with plenty of pics and graphics, which is my style of learning.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: cityimrov on January 27, 2010, 12:30:26 PM
Since I'm bored today and there's very little dissent in this thread, I'll play the role of the common dissenter for this post.  
----
This is such a waste of money!  Our schools are failing, our roads are falling apart, and the thugs in town are taking over.  We don't have money for fancy projects like this!  Nobody likes downtown!  The mayor convinced the council to vote for a tax increase to prevent the police from leaving and now this!  Fix our schools first!  Fix our crime problem first!  Fix our local neighborhoods first before we waste money on projects like this.  Forget downtown, it's a black hole for all our money.  
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: copperfiend on January 27, 2010, 12:35:32 PM
Since I'm bored today and there's very little dissent in this thread, I'll play the role of the common dissenter for this post. 
----
This is such a waste of money!  Our schools are failing, our roads are falling apart, and the thugs in town are taking over.  We don't have money for fancy projects like this!  Nobody likes downtown!  The mayor convinced the council to vote for a tax increase to prevent the police from leaving and now this!  Fix our schools first!  Fix our crime problem first!  Fix our local neighborhoods first before we waste money on projects like this.  Forget downtown, it's a black hole for all our money. 


Posting straight from the T-U site?
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 27, 2010, 12:35:37 PM
ok cityimrov, let me help educate....this is a long-term vision....the problems you have listed are things that need to be done now.....there is no reason we can't do both!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Captain Zissou on January 27, 2010, 12:36:03 PM
I know you're playing devils advocate, cityimrov, but I'll respond anyway.

In my opinion, this project is fixing 4+ local neighborhoods, and will impact many others.  This looks like something Charlotte would propose (except they would follow through).  If we did these things, I think we would attract new large businesses, creative small business owners, artists, and smart young adults to downtown and Jax/ NE Florida in general.  I think if these projects are done right and done well they will pay for themselves over time.

We do need to fix our schools!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: reednavy on January 27, 2010, 12:40:43 PM
Since I'm bored today and there's very little dissent in this thread, I'll play the role of the common dissenter for this post.  
----
This is such a waste of money!  Our schools are failing, our roads are falling apart, and the thugs in town are taking over.  We don't have money for fancy projects like this!  Nobody likes downtown!  The mayor convinced the council to vote for a tax increase to prevent the police from leaving and now this!  Fix our schools first!  Fix our crime problem first!  Fix our local neighborhoods first before we waste money on projects like this.  Forget downtown, it's a black hole for all our money.  

It's bullshit from people like you as part of the problem of why downtown is "a black hole". Everyone thinks that we're supposed to concentrate on the Southside or Westside, when a lot of problems can somewhat be attributed to a floundering core.

So, a little advice, read into things before you spew total bullshit. We know about the schools and crime, those are high priorities. Roads, hmm, if we weren't so sprawled it wouldn't be as bad. The damn page says this is a long-term plan, not short-term, so reading is fundamental.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: cityimrov on January 27, 2010, 12:48:36 PM
Since I'm now out of character, I should add this.  In order to make a plan like this reality.  We need to well, find good strong arguments that will win over these people.  Well, not necessarily these people but moderate voters who think they make a better argument vs us.  As much as I want to think they don't exist, seeing how Jacksonville is currently run, a lot of people vote with them vs against them.  These people represent votes and votes is what determines what our local politicians will do.  

Remember, no matter how cheap it is in reality to live in this city what people remember and tell me about are well - more fees, more taxes.  Whenever a new project comes on line, I can just hear them in my head talking about those two things.  A lot of people think of New Project = MORE TAXES instead of New Projects = investment for the future
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: JeffreyS on January 27, 2010, 01:00:58 PM
Are you talking about the people who voted for the better Jacksonville Plan? Pretty pessimistic about the people who voted for a progressive plan taxes and all.

Our schools suffer because of this type of thinking that we can afford this part of what we need at the expense of the other thing we need.(more so at the state level). You determine how you want your metro to be and plan, budget and tax accordingly. You do not say what is the min we can collect in taxes and just suffer whatever that may bring.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: vicupstate on January 27, 2010, 01:14:16 PM
What Jax needs is not more plans and pictures, but political will.  That is what was so encouraging about the Mayor's recent speech. Putting those words into action will give me hope.  More plans that don't really mean anything don't. 
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: hightowerlover on January 27, 2010, 04:16:52 PM
Already let's start digging!!!.... get out the golden shovels to break the soil, and bury this plan at the cursed shipyards site of pipe dreams.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Captain Zissou on January 27, 2010, 06:11:24 PM
I just glanced through the whole document and it's amazing! If half of this gets done DT will be much better off, and the study will have been worth whatever it cost.  That's an enormous If, however.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: 9a is my backyard on January 27, 2010, 08:08:46 PM
Is anyone planning on attending tomorrow?  I'm going to try and be there (although I may be a few minutes late). Obviously this plan is preaching to this choir, but political will gets generated by politicians seeing their constituents behind plans like this.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 27, 2010, 08:46:00 PM
I'm going to try and make it.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: stjr on January 27, 2010, 11:49:36 PM
Lots of "mom and apple pie" and common sense in here.  IMHO, the real determinants of our vision will be leadership and private sector investments made in response to public sector investments.  If we had these, we wouldn't need to keep rehashing the obvious in expensive studies that belabor the obvious for the most part.  Most elements of this study have been thoroughly discussed on MJ at no cost to the City yet remain unaddressed.

Specific to this document, a few observations:

No holistic plan addressing downtown livability to attract downtown residents even though the plan list this as goal.

No mention of education, whether it regards placement of "neighborhood schools" or the impact of a university/college campus downtown.

Did note a call for wider sidewalks, street friendly building fronts, and the importance of historic preservation to build character and distinctiveness (while they lamented over how much has already been lost).

No mention of street cars even though they treasure connectivity.  Beaver Street is totally ignored as a major corridor even though it is a U.S. highway, has a full interchange with I-95, and the only connection to the City's west.  By the way, they advocate that the "S" line be made a "rails to trails" feature:


Quote
An emerging example in the Urban Core is the S-Line, a length of abandoned CSX railroad property that the City purchased to create a ribbon of open space throughout the District. The 4.5-mile trail provide off -street routes for jogging, walking, biking and rollerblading. CBD There is great potential for linkage with other trails, parks, schools, churches, historic sites and retail centers in the area.

No mention of conversion of the Shipyards and JEA properties to parks even though they treasure the river and access to it, advocate for conversion of brownfields (JEA site is so marked on one map) to parks, and advocate for active parks (without offering a downtown site for one):

Quote
There is a need for active, passive, and linear parks which increase opportunities for physical activity. These needs can be met in a variety of ways described below ... Active parks are programmed with active uses like athletic fields, vita courses, tennis courts, playgrounds, and jogging paths. A good example is Robert F. Kennedy Park in Springfield which includes indoor activities such as arts and crafts, billiards and foosball, and an indoor gymnasium for basketball or volleyball. It also provides facilities for outdoor activities such as a softball field, a swimming pool, tennis courts, a playground area and outdoor basketball courts.

Nice critique of our just completed multimillion dollar fixup of Main Street showing once again what happens when we get so wrapped up in some of these "visions" that we lose site of common sense needed for daily livability:

Quote
For example, much needed improvements to Main Street are currently underway and include new sidewalks, bus shelters, street trees and a landscaped median. While the new medians provide an aesthetic appeal to the roadway, unfortunately they are also creating a barrier to connectivity by reducing access to businesses for cars, by hindering turn movements, and for pedestrians, by hindering cross block movement. Medians are designed to control movement and to limit access on highways and major corridors, but they are sometimes not appropriate for compact neighborhoods and can actually have a detrimental impact on businesses and retail activity.

In fact, most successful retail streets do not have medians.

This was an interesting quote following their chastising the placement of medians just installed on Main Street as not retail or pedestrian friendly:

Quote
These examples can be attributed to the fundamental disconnect between the mission of the Florida Department of Transportation to “…provide a safe transportation system that ensures the mobility of people and goods, enhances economic prosperity and preserves the quality of our environment and communities...” and the movement to foster walkable neighborhoods. The mission is car centric and has influenced many local municipalities statewide. Fortunately, the Florida Department of Transportation is addressing this with their Livable Communities initiative, but more needs to be done.

They should have added JTA to this comment despite their facade of being a mass transit agency as well.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: samiam on January 28, 2010, 12:19:30 AM
What we need to make this work is rail. rail, rail, rail, rail, rail, and lets not forget RAIL !!!!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Ocklawaha on January 28, 2010, 12:36:33 AM
What we need to make this work is rail. rail, rail, rail, rail, rail, and lets not forget RAIL !!!!

X2

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: samiam on January 28, 2010, 12:44:12 AM
If any of you attend this meeting PLEASE ask the powers that be what the hell do they have against rail. I just cant understand the thinking of the so called leader of this city. It is a fact if you have rail you have development. As Forrest gump would say they go together like peas and carrots
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: samiam on January 28, 2010, 12:50:28 AM
Wake up little prince Peyton, you have a situation that has never happened before. We have a president that is giving away money for RAIL. I see it, why cant you ?
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: samiam on January 28, 2010, 01:14:21 AM
If there is an ulterior motive to this BRT crap it needs to be exposed. No one is saying boy am i glad we are going to get a BRT system It sure is exciting. I think I will ride it every day.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: samiam on January 28, 2010, 01:32:05 AM
JTA times have changed. Get with the program. we as a city would get the most bang for the buck from rail. MY god why cant you see it. Are you so blinded by the greed and corruption of the past that you cant see all the free money the feds would give you if you would create a system that everyone would ride. I know for a fact that it would not only be use as transportation to and from work, A large percentage of the ridership would ride just for the fun of it, I would
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 28, 2010, 08:20:59 AM
I don't think this was JTA's vision....if it was, you likely would see streetcar routes instead of skyway extensions.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: fsujax on January 28, 2010, 08:46:19 AM
If you look at the "Acknowledgements" page, JTA is no where to be found. It appears they were not invited to be part of this process. JTA's map for the future looks different than the ones proposed in this plan.

http://www.jtafla.com/futureplans/Media/PDF/TIM.pdf

http://www.jtafla.com/futureplans/

I am planning on attending the meeting.



Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: cline on January 28, 2010, 09:02:08 AM
The fact that JTA was not involved in this vision process is really really poor.  Since JTA is a major stakeholder, one would think they would have been included. 
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 28, 2010, 09:55:29 AM
Even worse...from what I understand, this effort was managed by the Planning Department....and there is no mention of streetcars...yet the mobility plan being worked on right now (also being managed by the Planning Department) envisions streetcars.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: stjr on January 28, 2010, 11:41:33 AM
Compare Jax's "visioning" process to San Francisco's posted on another MJ thread.  Their planner has full say over ALL aspects of the urban core, from economic development and neighborhoods to transportation and city planning.  Until we have a UNIFIED and HOLISTIC, not piecemeal, process to Jax "visioning" and execution of same, we will continue to have chaotic and inconsistent planning and follow through.

I am no fan of JTA, but until we have something better, they need to be part of the process, even if they will muck it up.  At least, others will have a shot at fixing them.  The way it is now, it appears they are flying under many planner's radar.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: brainstormer on January 30, 2010, 01:52:55 PM
Is there anyone in this city who has the balls to tackle this vision and not back down?  There are wonderful ideas in the document and enormous amounts of potential.  Priorities will have to be established and our city leadership must develop better communication.  It is exciting to think that Jacksonville could one day be a jewel on the St. Johns.  One of the past problems in Jacksonville is that developments are suggested and then approved and they don't fit into the vision.  We need a strong mayor to lead this effort and right now I'm not convinced any of those running have what it takes.

Now for a few comments and suggestions...

I'm surprised that the vision doesn't included bringing the Hart Expressway down to street level.  This will have to be either leveled or rebuilt in the next 25 years.  Personally I think the current raised expressway is ugly and separates the Sports complexes from the river.  I think it would be better to rebuild the Arlington expressway so that there was a ramp that directly connected to the Hart bridge.

The Hogans Creek expanded central park could be a beautiful addition to the urban core and could potentially be implemented soon.

I love the idea of developing Commodore Point and investing around the stadium/sports district.

I think with the push at the federal and state levels to invest in higher education, we need to think about trying to get a university or college downtown along the river.  I'm thinking about what Charlotte just accomplished with Johnson and Whales.  Is there any potential to rethink where Florida State College of Jacksonville fits into our urban core?  Could a larger downtown campus with possible residential components ever be possible?  Is there any demand for student housing?  Just something to think about.

Are the Met Park improvements the mayor has proposed going to support this vision or are we spending money on things now that we will tear up when we start something else?  This is a result of a lack of communication in city government.

Implementing elements of a vision should not have to require huge amounts of taxpayer funding!  We need to get more creative with incentives and stop spending money on useless things that don't support the vision.  One of our greatest assets is the amount of land the city owns.  We need to use this to our advantage.

In general, I'm excited about the future of Jacksonville, and quite pleased they are trying to create some sort of vision.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: stjr on January 30, 2010, 02:21:28 PM
Brainstormer, locating a college campus on the Shipyards property would both give Downtown a decent college campus and insure public access to the river with a sharing of a park and college sports field facility.

The trick is finding a college to relocate there.  We need JEDC to consider recruiting one to Jax just like they would recruit a company.  A college would have a far greater impact on the City, Downtown, jobs, and reversing any brain drains.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 30, 2010, 03:08:10 PM
From whatI have been told, they pretty much stayed out of downtown with this Vision and left that to JEDC...which may explain why the Hart Expwy. was not addressed
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on January 30, 2010, 05:31:11 PM
Personally, I would have liked to see more focus on Urban Core neighborhoods like Durkeeville, Brentwood, Panama Park and the Eastside.  Outside of the port area, it seems most of the focus was centered around Springfield and the former Sugar Hill area.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Charles Hunter on January 30, 2010, 05:47:04 PM
Personally, I would have liked to see more focus on Urban Core neighborhoods like Durkeeville, Brentwood, Panama Park and the Eastside.  Outside of the port area, it seems most of the focus was centered around Springfield and the former Sugar Hill area.

Are any of those areas in the Urban Core Planning District/CPAC - except Eastside?
Quote
Boundaries Location of District 1 in Duval County 
West: Margaret Ave. to I-10 to I-95 to Myrtle Ave. to King Rd., to Spires St. to 13th to Fairfax to CSX RR to Spires to Moncrief Creek to Golfair Blvd. to Pearl to CSX RR to Winona Dr., to Evergreen to Long Branch Rd. to St. Johns River.
South: I-95 to Bee Street to St. Johns River
East: St. Johns River
North: Moncrief Creek to Golfair Blvd. to Pearl to CSX RR to Winona Dr., to Evergreen to Long Branch Rd. to St. Johns River.

And they are so much on the geographic fringe of their "parent" CPACs that they would pay much attention to them.  Perhaps the Planning Districts need to be redrawn - I think they've been the same since the 1970s.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: brainstormer on January 30, 2010, 07:06:21 PM
^tufsu, there in lies the problem.  No one is really in charge.  Why do we have so many freakin' groups in this city that are in charge of something, but not really.  The planning councils, development commissions, advisory committees, JTA and all the other groups have gotten to the point where nothing gets done and there is zero communication.  There is nothing wrong with having a small vision for Hogan's Creek or Commodore Point, but shouldn't transit and roads be included in the large picture?  Transit and mobility is what connects each little area to all the others.  Why aren't we all working together on one large map?  Why does each little group live in a bubble.  We all live in the same city!!!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 30, 2010, 07:51:15 PM
^tufsu, there in lies the problem.  No one is really in charge.  Why do we have so many freakin' groups in this city that are in charge of something, but not really.  The planning councils, development commissions, advisory committees, JTA and all the other groups have gotten to the point where nothing gets done and there is zero communication.

Its actually quite simple...the Planning Department is staff for everything outside of downtown, which is handled by JEDC...then onto the Planning Commission...and finally to City Council....this is pretty similar to how every community in FL does it.

That said, I will agree that often there seems to be zero communication.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Ocklawaha on January 30, 2010, 09:34:01 PM
If you look at the "Acknowledgements" page, JTA is no where to be found. It appears they were not invited to be part of this process. JTA's map for the future looks different than the ones proposed in this plan.

http://www.jtafla.com/futureplans/Media/PDF/TIM.pdf

http://www.jtafla.com/futureplans/

I am planning on attending the meeting.


I'd love it, y'all just tell us when these things happen and I'll show up. The JTA board as well as the planning meetings need to be on some sort of calender. I wish we could create an interactive MJ calender.

By the way FSUJAX, Who did the cross-hatches on the map http://www.jtafla.com/futureplans/Media/PDF/TIM.pdf showing the CSX/Commuter Rail west of town toward Beaver in red? Both that spot and several other show an alternating cross hatch on the red line... Does the JTA planners even know that solid, equidistant cross hatches are ALWAYS used for standard gauge railroads, and alternating cross hatches are ALWAYS used for narrow gauge. TRUE!  Maybe someone is trying to tell us something? Otherwise do we just calculate whoever drew the map doesn't know that much about rail?


OCKLAWAHA



Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: brainstormer on January 30, 2010, 09:46:54 PM
Its actually quite simple...the Planning Department is staff for everything outside of downtown, which is handled by JEDC...then onto the Planning Commission...and finally to City Council....this is pretty similar to how every community in FL does it.

That said, I will agree that often there seems to be zero communication.

You make it sound so simple and easy. :)  Perhaps we need to rethink how JTA interacts with the planning department and JEDC.  Maybe instead of building JTA new offices we should move them into city hall so the communication could be improved.  Centralized gov't sounds like a good idea to me and it would save a ton of money.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: JeffreyS on January 31, 2010, 12:14:01 AM
^^ That is why strong mayors get their way in most cities. Even here when Peyton wanted fees and the council was hesitant he got them.  If your mayor really wants it you get it.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: wasworsethanyou on January 31, 2010, 12:58:50 AM
Residential buildings with store fronts... that'd be a good step in the right direction... No more building offering nothing to pedestrians
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: CS Foltz on January 31, 2010, 06:48:02 AM
brainstormer..........good idea! Putting JTA into City Hall would be lots cheaper then building them a new office complex they neither need nor the taxpayers wish to pay for! Plenty of other options with existing Bldg's that have not been discussed or pursued........Fed Bldg, old JEA Bldg.............barges floating on the St Johns!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: tufsu1 on January 31, 2010, 08:56:48 AM
yes CS...there is no question that floating barges on the river would be cheaper  ;)
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Coolyfett on February 01, 2010, 01:22:19 PM
Looks good....I like the No car thing.
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: Councilwoman Glorious Johnson on February 14, 2010, 04:30:04 PM
samiam
January 28, 2010, 12:44:12 AM

If any of you attend this meeting PLEASE ask the powers that be what the hell do they have against rail. I just cant understand the thinking of the so called leader of this city. It is a fact if you have rail you have development. As Forrest gump would say they go together like peas and carrots



Samiam,

I totally agree with you and my friends who supports rail. For approximately seven years, I have tried to get the so-called powers to be to see the bigger picture, cost effectiveness, and beneficial effects that the return of the rail would have in our city. We are so far behind until we think we are ahead because we do not see anyone around us, not realizing that everyone left us a long time ago. As an elected official, I am at the stage of out right disgust and unbelief of the mentality of holding this city back instead of moving forward. Being that I have said that I am an elected official, I will use my real name when the fellows help me to make the change. I am Councilwoman Glorious Johnson. IT'S RAIL TIME!!!!!!! So let's RUMBLE!!!!! Choo!!! Choo!!!! ChOOOO!!!!!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: CS Foltz on February 14, 2010, 07:08:27 PM
OK Vickie................welcome to the Metro Jacksonville Blog......and yes  I agree! The powers that be have no idea about much of anything which has been proven over and over again! Mass transit equals rail, as one small part of the transportation pie and the powers that be JUST DON"T GET IT! I do have some 2x4's available but I don't think it will help the GOB Network get the message...........if they can't make money off of it, they ain't interested kid!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: thelakelander on February 14, 2010, 07:16:51 PM
Welcome to Metro Jacksonville, Councilwoman Johnson!
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: GoldenEst82 on April 30, 2010, 12:43:14 AM
I want to throw this out there, as it is a peeve of mine...
But what about expansion of the mono-rail?

Wouldn't be awesome instead of tearing up roads for rails, we continued the system to include the Sports Complex, Riverside, Springfield and Murray Hill?
Maybe eventually, to the beaches?

It is really the Fail Rail- a giant visible waste of money.
I worked downtown and lived in Riverside and had to drive, and that is sad.
I would have paid a DOLLAR each way to not have paid for parking, and the use of gas.

Why is this not on the table?
Title: Re: Urban Core Vision Plan to be Unveiled
Post by: stjr on April 30, 2010, 11:34:04 AM
GoldenEst82, welcome to MJ.

You may get a potential wave of responses when you bring up the $ky-high-way on MJ.  This is one of the most discussed subjects we have here.  I suggest, to save time, you might want to review numerous threads in the Forum board under Transportation, Mass Transit, and Infrastructure.  If you sort the thread by subject, views, or replies, you will find top listings reviewing this subject ad infinitum.  Pros and cons.  Draw your own conclusions.

Happy reading and we will see you again in a few days  ;)