The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => The Burbs => St. Johns County => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on January 07, 2010, 06:02:40 AM

Title: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on January 07, 2010, 06:02:40 AM
Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/755543476_hjWzg-M.jpg)

We've heard enough about downtown's struggles during this economic recession.  A trip to Nocatee shows the recession has had an impact on suburban development as well.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-jan-nocatee-development-slowed-by-recession
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: copperfiend on January 07, 2010, 08:45:22 AM
Not an uncommon site this area. I saw a development in Maclenny this weekend that had about 8 houses built and 30 or so empty lots. The houses were built 2-3 years ago.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Dapperdan on January 07, 2010, 09:04:08 AM
This area will rebound quickly, I beleive. i think all in all Nocatee is very good for St Johns County. It seems like the developers actually have long, thought out plans with business parks, recreation, and housing. Yes, it is still suburban to the core, but I think it is nicely done. Another CDD developement to live in if you don't mind paying fees out the ying yang.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: copperfiend on January 07, 2010, 09:13:47 AM
It's relatively close to the beach too.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: thelakelander on January 07, 2010, 09:21:26 AM
Its not my cup of tea but you guys are right.  All things considered, its a step above typical First Coast suburbia.  It will be interesting to see how Nocatee's future plays out and what impact it has on the surrounding infrastructure network.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: finehoe on January 07, 2010, 10:22:43 AM
Can't these places hire some innovative architects instead of recycling the same tired old designs?
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Overstreet on January 07, 2010, 11:16:18 AM
............Can't these places hire some innovative architects instead of recycling the same tired old designs?...........

Sure, but the cost usually goes up to do that. Then too some neighborhoods keep individual house designs within a certain style range of designs to make the neighborhood look planned and not helter skelter.

I do know of a development, not Nocatee,  that hired out of town name brand architects and interior designers from around the country to design each building in the business district. They were innovative. However the project met the same fate when the housing market bottomed. Delayed by the economy.

Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: finehoe on January 07, 2010, 11:47:30 AM
The photo that inspired my comment was the one right before the "Coming Soon Publix" picture.  That same building has been built about ten thousand times everywhere in the country.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 07, 2010, 12:54:03 PM
The best thing, to me, about Nocatee is the preservation lands and the heavy tree plantings along the roadways.

 Unfortunately, this pales in comparison to what the natural landscape offered before Nocatee arrived.  The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come.  Another part of old Florida forever lost.  Sad, very sad.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 07, 2010, 01:20:31 PM

We need new land use designations:

P T J P W N U  (Preserving The Jurisdictional Protected Wetlands Not Uplands)

FLUM BD    (Future Land Use Map Be Damned)

H S U        (Human Storage Unit)

L W I         (Live With It!)  And a Nocatee ad theme-directed at opponents ??
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: tufsu1 on January 07, 2010, 05:34:40 PM
so...is this sprawl or not...and why?
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 07, 2010, 06:17:34 PM
so...is this sprawl or not...and why?

At 13,323 acres about 20 miles from Downtown in the middle of former forests and wetlands, need you ask?
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 07, 2010, 08:05:27 PM
so...is this sprawl or not...and why?

At 13,323 acres about 20 miles from Downtown in the middle of former forests and wetlands, need you ask?

.......and substantial deviation from County Growth management process-FLUM- then recently adopted Future Land Use Map.Denied by PZB.


The bold move ushered in a decade of radical DRI sweep and other actions.

Under reported, time will reveal details.St.Johns county recent former PZB member David Wiles commands a clear grasp of the provocative narrative.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 08, 2010, 10:34:57 AM

**** Note To Stephen Dare****  A glimpse of Nocatee narrative:

Check  metrojacksonville@metrojacksonville.com incomming email-sent this am.Note also the attachment.

-North Miami
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Dog Walker on January 08, 2010, 10:46:05 AM
Somehow Nocatee always reminds me of Palm Coast.  It was started by ITT back in the 70's and was going to be a whole new city complete with retail and jobs.  They had cheap pulp wood land to play with too.  Big bust!  Here we are thirty years or more later and it is still mostly vacant and has almost nothing but houses.  ITT is long gone and, if memory serves, wrote off tens of millions of dollars in losses over Palm Coast.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Overstreet on January 08, 2010, 10:57:24 AM
Nocatee is different than Palm Coast because it sits between two cities, Jacksonville and St Augustine. It will be a bedroom community of both. Palm Coast was/is in the middle of nowhere I-95.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Dog Walker on January 08, 2010, 11:05:39 AM
But it was presented as its' own independent entity complete with retail and offices and jobs.  I figured at the time that they were just blowing smoke to get around the comp. plan.  It had struck me as just another suburban, bedroom community too.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 08, 2010, 11:16:29 AM
Nocatee is different than Palm Coast because it sits between two cities, Jacksonville and St Augustine. It will be a bedroom community of both. Palm Coast was/is in the middle of nowhere I-95.

In my mind, the only difference between the two is location, one here, one there.  Before Nocatee, that area was also the middle of nowhere. 

A "bedroom community" is the essence of urban sprawl to me.  The idea that outlying areas being developed are near other outlying areas already developed and therefore are not urban sprawl is exactly the self-serving thinking that fuels urban sprawl.  Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: cline on January 08, 2010, 11:23:22 AM
Quote
Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.

The problem is, where do you draw the line?  Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 08, 2010, 11:44:09 AM

Rambling discussions.

Local government was allowed to skirt around 'consistency' with the State Comp Plan/FLUM.
St.Johns county resident and recent former PZB member David Wiles has composed a telling narrative.
Formal objections lodged by opponents beginning in February 2001 are telling.

Note today I sent a note to Stephen Dare-advising of material of interest and illumination sent to his attention.

N.Miami
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: tufsu1 on January 08, 2010, 11:47:41 AM
Quote
Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.

The problem is, where do you draw the line?  Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?

not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 08, 2010, 12:12:31 PM
Quote
Drawing a hard line around existing development and saying "No More" is the only way to stop it.

The problem is, where do you draw the line?  Only around the urban core (downtown)? Emerson? JTB? St. Augustine Road? CR210? St. Augustine?

not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.

Where to draw the line?  "Around existing development".  In essence, you FREEZE all current development rights at present levels. You can also refuse to build publicly paid infrastructure that enables development to thrive.  This includes roads, schools, fire and police, utilities, etc.  No one will be able to develop if they don't have access to these amenities.  There is no violation of private property rights using these strategies as nothing is being "subtracted".  We are just refusing to "add" and that is not an entitlement developers should be able to assert legally.

By example, if we refuse to build the Outer Beltway, all the mega development along its pathway will not likely come to fruition.  The property owners would have no legal right to demand the road be built while effectively being denied the opportunity to contribute to urban sprawl.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: cline on January 08, 2010, 12:30:47 PM
Quote
No one will be able to develop if they don't have access to these amenities.  There is no violation of private property rights using these strategies as nothing is being "subtracted"

The problem is there already is access to land and amenities.  Are you going to tell landowners that their land that once zoned single-family today will be changed to agriculture or conservation tomorrow.  What about the thousands upon thousands of homesites that have already been entitled and approved and are now just waiting to be built (Northern SJC)? 

I agree that growth needs to be managed.  I'm not sure simply drawing a line is the answer.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: finehoe on January 08, 2010, 12:37:58 PM
The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come.  Another part of old Florida forever lost.  Sad, very sad.

I haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of.  I had no idea it had been destroyed.  This really breaks my heart.

And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties.  Sad, very sad indeed.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 08, 2010, 12:39:39 PM
The problem is there already is access to land and amenities.  Are you going to tell landowners that their land that once zoned single-family today will be changed to agriculture or conservation tomorrow.  What about the thousands upon thousands of homesites that have already been entitled and approved and are now just waiting to be built (Northern SJC)?  

Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

The developer can go on and build the proposed thousands of houses.  But, good luck selling them if the Outer Beltway or other road expansions and widenings, schools, fire stations, etc. aren't built.  We, the public, are not legally obligated to be accomplices to developers in creating urban sprawl.  They bought the land without major infrastructure improvements so no one is "taking" anything from them by not building them.  Plain and simple.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 08, 2010, 12:40:47 PM


not to mention this little thing called private property rights....if I have the right to develop my property at a certain density now and then its taken away, by law I must be compensated.
[/quote]

It is not a matter of taking away vested development rights.............it is about granting additional rights.That's what it is all about: a property owner,in seeking development 'rights',makes petition before the people's government,in hoped that the people will grant the request,or some modified result.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: cline on January 08, 2010, 12:42:36 PM
Quote
Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

So basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area.  I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 08, 2010, 12:58:01 PM
Quote
Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

So basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area.  I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.
Quote
Please reread my comments.  I never proposed rezoning or "down-zoning".

So basically, you're proposing a permanent moratorium on all building that falls outside your defined area.  I'm sure that solution will go over well in Clay and St. Johns counties.

I am advocating preventing urban sprawl.  Obviously, to do so, certain development and construction can not take place.  A moratorium is a "suspension of activity".  If the shoe fits, then I wear it proudly.  In fact, if the development we are talking about is permanently prevented, such action is stronger than a moratorium which is usually temporary in nature.

St. Johns and Clay counties need to do some real soul searching and decide what they want to be "when they grow up".  If they want a quality of life akin to what attracted the current residents in those counties, they will need to reconsider how much more urban-sprawl type development they really want.  Given that there appears to be substantial residential opposition in those counties to the Outer Beltway, I would say many would be happy to live with what you call a "moratorium" or even something stronger. 

Cline, if no property rights are compromised and the public supports the actions I suggest, why would you continue to object - unless your are one of the said property owners/developers/other beneficiaries of urban sprawl development?
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: cline on January 08, 2010, 01:06:02 PM
Quote
Given that there appears to be substantial residential opposition in those counties to the Outer Beltway

You speak of substantial residential opposistion to the Beltway.  I have spoken to citizens in the county who support the Beltway.  Its not like every citizen in the area opposes the Beltway like you seem to think.

Quote
Cline, if no property rights are compromised and the public supports the actions I suggest, why would you continue to object - unless your are one of the said property owners/developers/other beneficiaries of urban sprawl development?

Of course no one would object if you don't own the land, but obviously the "said property owners" would.  That's the point of property rights.  Those owners would have to be compensated.  You can't just arbitrarily modify people's land uses and not expect to have to compensate them.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 08, 2010, 01:20:31 PM
Quote
Given that there appears to be substantial residential opposition in those counties to the Outer Beltway

You speak of substantial residential opposistion to the Beltway.  I have spoken to citizens in the county who support the Beltway.  Its not like every citizen in the area opposes the Beltway like you seem to think.

Cline, you are not reading and/or comprehending what I am writing.  "Substantial" doesn't mean "all" so why are you making this comment?  Stop "spinning" my words.


Quote
Quote
Cline, if no property rights are compromised and the public supports the actions I suggest, why would you continue to object - unless your are one of the said property owners/developers/other beneficiaries of urban sprawl development?

Of course no one would object if you don't own the land, but obviously the "said property owners" would.  That's the point of property rights.  Those owners would have to be compensated.  You can't just arbitrarily modify people's land uses and not expect to have to compensate them.

Again, Cline, are you not reading what I wrote or trying to put words of your convenience in my mouth?  I have just said in multiple posts above that no property rights are being interfered with.  What "rights" do you think are being taken away if the land is NOT rezoned?  There are NO modifications, just a refusal by the public to SUPPORT with their dollars a land owner/developer creating urban sprawl.  No land owner is "entitled" to be compensated for a road or school NOT being built and that was never contracted for.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Jason on January 08, 2010, 01:25:51 PM
I say, if the developers want it then let them pay for it.  Entirely.  No subsidies, no tax breaks, no incentives.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 08, 2010, 02:44:50 PM
The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come.  Another part of old Florida forever lost.  Sad, very sad.

I haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of.  I had no idea it had been destroyed.  This really breaks my heart.

And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties.  Sad, very sad indeed.

Finehoe, a glimpse of the before although, unfortunately, it doesn't really show the palm forest one went through approaching the bridge.


(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3378/3296257046_4e21c19f1b.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Old_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg/800px-Old_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg)

And, the concrete monster, sans palm trees, of the present:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/3296256798_69083f0d99.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg/800px-New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg)

Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: tufsu1 on January 08, 2010, 03:04:39 PM
The most reasonable answer would be to do what Maryland tried....the state deceided that there were certain areas where they wanted growth to occur....state funds were directed to these areas....if you wanted to build outside these areas, fine...but the state wasn't going to help in any way.

Unfortunately, after 10 years, the program has been deemed by some a failure.....and that's in a relatively small, very progressive state with strong environmental and urban planning history....good luck trying to do this in Florida!
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: samiam on January 08, 2010, 04:15:42 PM
This is from another thread I posted in last month

People just don't understand the negative environment impact this kind of development causes. It seems they are being told it a green walkable community for the sake of the developers but it far from the truth. I have seen the damage done first hand.
The greenest house is a house already built
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Dog Walker on January 08, 2010, 05:46:36 PM
TUFSU1,  Didn't London, UK and Portland, OR do something similar; a "green belt" around the city where no city services would be extended?  I don't remember the exact details of each city's efforts or their results, but remember reading somewhere that in Portland it pushed development back into the center city and to nodes built around the light rail system there.

Do you know the details and the results?
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 08, 2010, 06:31:32 PM
The most reasonable answer would be to do what Maryland tried....the state deceided that there were certain areas where they wanted growth to occur....state funds were directed to these areas....if you wanted to build outside these areas, fine...but the state wasn't going to help in any way.

Unfortunately, after 10 years, the program has been deemed by some a failure.....and that's in a relatively small, very progressive state with strong environmental and urban planning history....good luck trying to do this in Florida!

Faced with certain unwanted development impacts and a desire to "save" lands from development,conservation minded citizens were faced with the land owners and developers challenge: If you tell me what to do with my land-buy it!
And that is just what we did in Florida,through a vibrant state conservation lands program,beginning with the Coanservation and Recreation Lands Act,which yielded Guana State Park and Wildlife Management Area-Northeast Florida's first CARL project.Followed by P2000,Save our River etc.The water management districts play a key role.Such fee simple aquisitions continue.Jennings State Forest came on line after Guana.(This writer was centrally involved with Jennings).Talbot.Cary State Forest expansions,Bayard,Four Rivers to name a few area projects.Note too the Osceola to Ocala Corridor.South Florida is the grand daddy of long established protected lands and later additions.(An effective block to westward sprawl that we do not enjoy.....)
And less than fee conservation easements allowing for environmentally compatible agriculture,timber,cattle.
Farm interests,timber interests and bonafide agricultural interests are forming land trusts and spurring easements.

Just say "Know" to growth!
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 08, 2010, 06:36:58 PM

**** Note To Stephen Dare****  A glimpse of Nocatee narrative:

Check  metrojacksonville@metrojacksonville.com incomming email-sent this am.Note also the attachment.

-North Miami

Reminder for Stephen Dare-note above

-N.Miami
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 08, 2010, 10:05:46 PM
The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come.  Another part of old Florida forever lost.  Sad, very sad.

I haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of.  I had no idea it had been destroyed.  This really breaks my heart.

And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties.  Sad, very sad indeed.

Finehoe, a glimpse of the before although, unfortunately, it doesn't really show the palm forest one went through approaching the bridge.


(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3378/3296257046_4e21c19f1b.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Old_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg/800px-Old_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg)

And, the concrete monster, sans palm trees, of the present:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/3296256798_69083f0d99.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg/800px-New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg)





The PARC GROUP
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: tufsu1 on January 08, 2010, 10:33:27 PM
TUFSU1,  Didn't London, UK and Portland, OR do something similar; a "green belt" around the city where no city services would be extended?  I don't remember the exact details of each city's efforts or their results, but remember reading somewhere that in Portland it pushed development back into the center city and to nodes built around the light rail system there.

Do you know the details and the results?

Both cities have done this...in London (and other European cities) its far easier as private land ownership is not as prevalant.

In Portland, development on the edges has been curbed (although there is still plenty of sprawl)....this is done through a regional planning agency that has land use powers...the downside is the average home price has increased far more rapidly than in the rest of the nation....there was also a voter revolt a few years ago which basically gutted the system...than in 2008, the voters realized the error of their way and put most of the system bck in place.

Most recently some of the local governments have threatened to pull out f the regional planning pact, as they are unhappy with their future development allocations....I posted an article about this a few days ago in another thread.

Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on January 08, 2010, 11:04:19 PM
 ...the downside is the average home price has increased far more rapidly than in the rest of the nation....there was also a voter revolt a few years ago which basically gutted the system...
[/quote]

It is so worn out as a viable feature of growth promotion that we forget that "increasing property value" was a given assumptions behind selling "growth" proposals.

Home price increase,better than even some average,is good-yes?? In the case you quote above,maybe even get what you pay for!
Voter 'revolt' is no reflection on the viability (use that word a lot in these posts) of growth restriction.Possibly a good reason to not move there,for some of us in the know.

Might as well cease these posts-NE Fl fate has been sealed.There are further decisions (who knows of State DCA role and efforts such as the local office of the FWF?? And Leggo....) but on the whole-done deal.

Florida's First Coast-Where Miami Begins!!

Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: mtraininjax on January 09, 2010, 04:52:41 AM
Really? Could we say the same thing about Cecil Field or the planned expansions out Pritchard Road? How about all the apartments and condos falling into foreclosure that local banks are absorbing? Jacksonville lost 5,000 construction jobs last year, and we are all feeling it all over town.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: tufsu1 on January 09, 2010, 02:16:30 PM
norhmiami....increasing home values are good when you own and don't want to move...not so good if you're looking to buy!
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: finehoe on January 09, 2010, 02:31:09 PM
home values are good when you own and don't want to move...

Except when your property tax bill rolls around.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: tufsu1 on January 09, 2010, 02:37:52 PM
good point!
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: BOfficer on January 12, 2010, 11:23:34 AM
I hope Nocatee can become what everyone expects
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: FactCheck on January 15, 2010, 03:35:59 PM
The rape and destruction of the unique forest of palms in Palm Valley at the bridge by FDOT was just a precursor of things to come.  Another part of old Florida forever lost.  Sad, very sad.

I haven't been to this area in a while, but I know the palm forest you speak of.  I had no idea it had been destroyed.  This really breaks my heart.

And as if to add insult to injury, the planted palms in the pictures all appear to be non-native varieties.  Sad, very sad indeed.

Finehoe, a glimpse of the before although, unfortunately, it doesn't really show the palm forest one went through approaching the bridge.


(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3378/3296257046_4e21c19f1b.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Old_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg/800px-Old_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg)

And, the concrete monster, sans palm trees, of the present:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3382/3296256798_69083f0d99.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg/800px-New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg)





The PARC GROUP
I say, if the developers want it then let them pay for it.  Entirely.  No subsidies, no tax breaks, no incentives.

I also am saddened by the loss of the Palm Trees. Who cares if the residents of Ponte Vedra needed a new hurricane evacuation route? The trees are much more important!
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: CS Foltz on January 15, 2010, 03:45:24 PM
FatCheck I agree! That little draw bridge was cute..........not to mention your right about the missing Palms! There used to be quite a few little draw bridges on both the east coast and the west coast in Florida. You go past Panama City, Ft Walton and beyond about a half a dozen from what I remember before you went past Shark Island to head into St Marks/Tallahassee.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 15, 2010, 05:55:57 PM
Quote
I also am saddened by the loss of the Palm Trees. Who cares if the residents of Ponte Vedra needed a new hurricane evacuation route? The trees are much more important!

Hmmm... did residents of Ponte Vedra move there for the palm trees or to set a world record in the Olympic "Hurricane Evacuation" event?  Maybe if someone cared, they could have had both but that might have taken a few minutes of thinking which our knee jerk road builders don't seem to have the ability to do.

If Hurricane Evacuation is the only consideration, let's build a road and bridge for every household.  That will move 'em out even faster.  Of course, if Ponte Vedrans are that concerned, maybe they shouldn't live along a Florida coastline to begin with.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: reednavy on January 15, 2010, 06:32:14 PM
Meh, GW will rise the sea and kill the trees then end of that.

Seriously though, the amount of traffic load that the original bridge was built for and needed to be replaced. Also, think if you were on either side of the bridge and had an emergency, but the EMS couldn't get there in time because the bridge was open.

While I like that orignal bridge's look, it had become obsolete and had to be replaced.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 15, 2010, 07:28:28 PM
Seriously though, the amount of traffic load that the original bridge was built for and needed to be replaced. Also, think if you were on either side of the bridge and had an emergency, but the EMS couldn't get there in time because the bridge was open.

While I like that orignal bridge's look, it had become obsolete and had to be replaced.

Reed, see the Bridge of Lions replacement plan in St. Augustine.  Of course, it only came about because people who cared made FDOT admit to being able to do what they had insisted wasn't feasible. It does show what can happen when the pedal meets the metal.

FDOT's standard utilitarian bridge designs are equivalent to the McDonalds of bridge building.  See I-95/Fuller Warren Bridge in Jax for the same design as Palm Valley on a larger scale.  Real creativity at work here.  ???


(http://www.southeastroads.com/florida050/i-095_warren_bridge_01.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg/800px-New_Palm_Valley_Bridge.jpg)

Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: reednavy on January 15, 2010, 08:06:38 PM
Well, St Augustine was also a bit different in that there was no room for what was neede, a four lane bridge w/o a draw.

The Palm Valey bridge serves it's purpose, but could've had better design elements. Apparently nobody out there cared, and just wanted it done quick.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: buckethead on January 15, 2010, 09:12:04 PM
Now you guys are in my neck of the woods. The draw bridge was charming, but horribly over-utilized as well as treacherously narrow. Remember; Nease High School was fed by it, and now Ponte Vedra High School is as well. I would have prefferred a more northerly corridor than Nocatee Pkwy provided, but the Racetrack Road extension will offer that, once completed. Being done BTW, with private dollars.

As for the St Augustine Bridge of Lions:

Building a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: tufsu1 on January 15, 2010, 09:49:22 PM
As for the St Augustine Bridge of Lions:

Building a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.

good point...it is important to note that the reconstructed Bridge of Lions will cost far more than a simple new bridge would have...now I'm all for that if its what the people want...just remember that every time the waste of tax dollars argument comes up!
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 15, 2010, 10:34:16 PM
Quote
Building a new bridge, to then tear down the old bridge, to rebuild a new bridge to replicate the outdated, over-utilized old bridge, and finally, tearing down the newly built bridge, seems like mismanagement of resources to me.

Quote
good point...it is important to note that the reconstructed Bridge of Lions will cost far more than a simple new bridge would have...now I'm all for that if its what the people want...just remember that every time the waste of tax dollars argument comes up!

Tufsu and Buckethead, unlike Jax, some communities consider architecture and design a valuable part of their economy and quality of life.  St. Augustine's architecture, not just its history, is an essential part of the charm and ambiance that draws all those tourists who drive a major part of its economy and attracts residents to the area.

Don't tell me that people don't move to Ponte Vedra, in part, for the Old Florida vegetation unique to the area.  Destroying one of the best examples of that IS an impairment of what Ponte Vedra is and thus a diminishment of its value.  How iconic and unique it would have been had a new Palm Valley bridge done in an Old Florida or Spanish style design sitting amidst a preserved and one-of-a-kind palm forest serving as the major "gateway" to the Ponte Vedra Community been built.  It could have become a signature as special as the 17th hole at TPC.

The idea that good design is not a value worthy of investment is shortsighted.  Just ask Apple how to make $$$ on design.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: buckethead on January 16, 2010, 12:02:49 AM
Real estate values in Ponte Vedra are relativley strong, fwiw.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 16, 2010, 12:12:50 AM
Real estate values in Ponte Vedra are relativley strong, fwiw.

Maybe, but, generally, far less than comparable "national market" properties in the I-4 and South Florida market, California, etc.  My real point isn't what current values are but what they could be.  Don't forget the boost to businesses from increased tourism, etc.  A unique identity that is instantly recognizable would be a major economic booster.  Just ask the PGA what #17 does for them.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Dog Walker on January 16, 2010, 08:59:46 AM
FDOT just can't win with you guys.  Preserve the appearance and height of the Bridge of Lions; it's a waste of taxpayers money.  Replace an undistinguished bridge that was a danger to motorists and boaters with a modern, efficient bridge; they have missed a chance to put distinguishing architectural features on it.

If they had spent money putting statues and columns on the Palm Valley Bridge, you would probably be fussing about the waste of taxpayers' money.

If they had not put up the temporary bridge in St. Augustine, you would probably be blaming them for all of the failed businesses on St. Augustine Beach.

IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Springfield Girl on January 16, 2010, 01:22:46 PM
I was suprised when I looked at the pictures. The landscaping, roads and ammenities looked nice but the houses were just standard, run of the mill, suburban stock. I thought the homes were supposed to be more upscale with more architectural interest.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 16, 2010, 02:36:38 PM
FDOT just can't win with you guys....IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.

Dog, as a public agency, it is a given that FDOT, JTA, etc. will be criticized from all sides.  That comes with the job (just like the criticism leveled at players and coaches for the Jags) and should not, in and of itself, intimidate them.

What is more important, is listening to the substantive comments of all these points of view and weaving them into a product that efficiently serves its community with the greatest VALUE.  As mentioned on another MJ thread, I consider VALUE to be more than the obvious benefits (e.g. accommodating a mode of transit) of a road or bridge project but also other important intangibles such as impact on the environment, aesthetics, safety, health, sustainability, social fabric, people's time, etc.

Where FDOT, JTA, and others of their ilk open themselves up to wide ranging criticism from ALL sides is in their failure to fully consider their projects beyond the scope of just an engineer's perspective.  The voices of the community at large are effectively marginalized (public hearings be damned) and the driving forces of development at all costs are front and center.  In the end, most criticism is a byproduct of this poor process for delivering such projects.  When the process is changed for the better, the criticism will likely ratchet down (of course, never to zero) tremendously.

For a parallel example, see the heated debate over the Springfield Car Wash.  How much better does the project become and how much of the criticism dissipates when community-wide input and communications are played out on a level playing field for all the interested parties?  The absence of such mechanisms with JTA and FDOT is a big problem for our community.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: buckethead on January 16, 2010, 02:38:48 PM
FDOT just can't win with you guys.  Preserve the appearance and height of the Bridge of Lions; it's a waste of taxpayers money.  Replace an undistinguished bridge that was a danger to motorists and boaters with a modern, efficient bridge; they have missed a chance to put distinguishing architectural features on it.

If they had spent money putting statues and columns on the Palm Valley Bridge, you would probably be fussing about the waste of taxpayers' money.

If they had not put up the temporary bridge in St. Augustine, you would probably be blaming them for all of the failed businesses on St. Augustine Beach.

IMO, Nocatee is an abomination and both bridge projects were well thought out and appropriate for where they are.
I am completely satisfied with the new palm valley bridge. I am ecstatic that it is tall enough to eliminate the need for a draw bridge. I find it aesthetically pleasing as well, in a minimalist sense. I understand that som would have turned a pine plantation into a state/national park/preserve and I am not entirely in disagreement. I do subscribe to the notion that a developer who purchases property for the purpose of developing it, should have the right to do so. As for the Bridge of Lions, (speaking of value) it is my opinion that the bridge was not so great to begin with. Better, less costly solutions were surely proposed.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Dog Walker on January 17, 2010, 12:25:51 PM
Quote
Where FDOT, JTA, and others of their ilk open themselves up to wide ranging criticism from ALL sides is in their failure to fully consider their projects beyond the scope of just an engineer's perspective.  The voices of the community at large are effectively marginalized (public hearings be damned) and the driving forces of development at all costs are front and center.  In the end, most criticism is a byproduct of this poor process for delivering such projects.  When the process is changed for the better, the criticism will likely ratchet down (of course, never to zero) tremendously.



You are absolutely correct here!  It took many years of people and organization pounding on FDOT to get them out of the "engineers" perspective on the Bridge of Lions and to come up with the present solution.  Too often they come in with a preferred solution and then spend all of their time in the public meetings defending it and getting it stuck in their thinking.

Engineer joke:  How can you tell an outgoing engineer from the average engineer?  When talking to you, he stares at your shoes instead of his own.  (Told to me by a friend who employs a bunch of them.)
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: FactCheck on January 19, 2010, 09:54:56 AM
FYI
The FDOT did not design or build the Palm Valley Bridge, it was the US Army Corps.
http://www.saj.usace.army.mil/Divisions/RealEstate/BasculeHwyBridge.htm

St. Johns County completed a study to replace the two lane Palm Valley Road with a four lane roadway,but didnt have the funds to construct.

The bridge and the road would have been constructed with or without the adjacent development...once the County generated tax proceeds or received grants to pay for its construction.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: stjr on January 19, 2010, 10:29:18 PM
Factcheck, interesting. I never realized the Army Corps was into bridge building like this.

My comments about engineers still hold true.  Consider the Army Corps of Engineers under the category of "...and others of their ilk."
;)
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: fieldafm on September 05, 2010, 09:58:03 PM
Nocatee: A town slowly rises despite economic slowdown
The housing bust has altered the developer’s plans. The vision has adapted to changing needs. And they’re in it for the long haul.


http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-09-05/story/nocatee-town-slowly-rises-despite-economic-slowdown (http://jacksonville.com/business/2010-09-05/story/nocatee-town-slowly-rises-despite-economic-slowdown)

Quote
By Kevin Turner
Since Doug and Lauren Senecal moved their family to Nocatee in late 2007, they have seen new roads and new subdivisions spring from what was only vast forest acreage.

“We’re still amazed that there is so much building and so many families moving into the community, despite the fact that so many across the country are having a hard time,” said Lauren Senecal, 30, a stay-at-home mom for the couple’s three children. The Senecals were the first family to move into the Willowcove at Nocatee subdivision when they arrived from Gainesville in December 2007.

“It’s exciting to see the changes in the last two and a half years,” she said.

A new amenities center, complete with visitors center, exercise center, swimming pools, water slides and a “lazy river” pool opened April 10. Northeast Florida’s largest Publix, the anchor for Nocatee’s Town Center, opened Feb. 13. There’s a network of neatly landscaped streets and two-way golf cart paths, and home sales are active in a half-dozen subdivisions.

Later this month, a $150-million, four-lane Nocatee Parkway — complete with a flyover ramp from U.S. 1 and stretching four miles to a bridge over the Intracoastal Waterway — will be finished. It will become a major east-west artery between Ponte Vedra Beach and the Fruit Cove area of north St. Johns County.

A changing vision

But while some aspects of the 14,000-acre planned community have continued unabated, others have stalled because of the recession or are being altered because of changing buyer preferences.

No golf courses have been built, for example. The project is permitted for as many as three, but it may build only two because demand for golf-anchored developments isn’t what it used to be, said Richard Ray, managing partner of the Parc Group, Nocatee’s master developer.

When ground first broke in 2005 for what was envisioned to be a self-contained “town” of houses, retail stores and office space, the developer estimated 6,000 people would live in 2,000 homes within the first five years. But today, Nocatee has about 1,500 people in 500 homes. The 30-year plan calls for it to have 14,000 homes at build-out.

“In a normalized market, we would be double where we are,” said Ray, who points out construction is ongoing in several communities and bulldozers are clearing ground for morehomes.

The Senecals’ subdivision was one of the first in Nocatee, and had houses selling from $250,000 to $300,000 at the low end up to $1.4 million. But higher price-point homes aren’t selling as well anymore, and Nocatee has diversified its offerings to adjust to the change, Ray said.

“With a project time that’s a 30-year project, we always have to be reacting to current market conditions,” he said.

The Parc Group has responded with two projects with less expensive homes. The new Kelly Pointe offers houses from $200,000 to $275,000 and in Greenleaf Village, where ground is just being broken, prices range from $160,000 to $250,000.

They’re still actively selling the  middle and high-end subdivisions, even as the newer, lower-priced communities diversify the developer’s offerings, Ray said.

The Pulte/Del Webb subdivision of Riverwood will have 2,000 houses when complete; it has 150 now. It’s aimed at people in their 50s and older, mostly empty-nesters.

Upscale developer/builder Toll Brothers is building Coastal Oaks, Nocatee’s high-end, gated housing community with 891 homes when built out. It has about 146 now, Ray said.

In other single-family developments, the Parc Group is the developer and partner builders construct the homes. Willowcove, built by David Weekley  Homes and Lennar, has 67 of 350 homes built. Builder Taylor Morrison’s Austin Park, where Nocatee’s first home was completed in 2007, has built 103 of that project’s 189. David Weekley Homes and Richmond American are building in newly opened Kelly Pointe, where four homes out of 176 have been constructed. Nocatee’s condominium development, Tidewater, built by Pulte, has sold 40 units out of 100, he said.

Pulte’s North Florida Division Vice President Jay Thompson said it soon will begin construction of townhouses in Willowcove, bringing the company’s stake in the development to three.

“In a normalized market, I think it will seem like a tremendous value,” he said. “That’s why you’ve got builders going in there, even now.”

Nocatee’s community development district sold $300 million in bonds to pay for all the development’s planning, infrastructure and amenities. The bond payments, as well as maintenance costs, are spread over an internal network of partnerships that makes all landowners— from builders to developers to home owners — partners in the overall operation, Ray said. A homeowner with a one-fifth acre lot pays about $1,700 a year toward the bond, and the owner of a larger, one-third acre lot pays $2,400, he said.

'Preferred location’

Thompson said he’s confident that when normalcy returns, Nocatee will prove to be more than just a good place to build.

“When you think about any major market, there’s one place people find compelling and special. In Jacksonville, it was Julington Creek. In the next decade, it will be Nocatee,” Thompson said.

Retail developer Regency Centers owns about 25 acres in the heart of Nocatee’s Town Center. So far, the Publix-

anchored shopping center has just a few tenants — a sushi place, a hair stylist, a dry cleaner — but Tom Fleming, Regency Centers vice president of investments, said the company is there for the long haul.

“We’re big believers in Nocatee, although it’s certainly challenging in the current environment,” Fleming said. “It’s going to be one of the most preferred locations in the area.”

But that may come after a five- to 10-year wait, he said. Demand for housing at Nocatee is better this year than last year, but still is slower than had been anticipated, he said.

“We think we’ve met it today. We’d love to be able to expand what we’ve got,” he said.

Plans include building a “Main Street” lined with shops, but that will come when demand and Nocatee’s population increases, Fleming said.

What’s happening today at Nocatee is part of a plan that began unfolding 12 years ago. The owners of the then-vacant land — the Davis family, founders of Winn-Dixie — retained the Parc Group and began the approval process for a “development of regional impact.” But the first house wasn’t sold there until April 6, 2007, and by the time home sales began in earnest, the real estate market’s boom had turned to bust.

The 30-year plan allowed for a couple of recessions but couldn’t predict what form they would take, Ray said.

“We were disappointed to see how quickly it came, and then the duration,” he said.

Still, Ray is perenially upbeat about Nocatee’s present and future. Partner builders are committed to the project, and its infrastructure continues to grow to accommodate expected growth, which is slowly returning, he says.

And for Nocatee, the developer believes the community is  more like a  marathon than a 50-yard dash.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: CS Foltz on September 05, 2010, 10:42:33 PM
At least they built their own roads rather than using  our tax dollars for it......but they have no and did not plan for any rail option! Seems to me to be short sighted for supposedly taking into account market conditions and a long range point of view!
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: Jason on September 10, 2010, 02:34:27 PM
They are still poised for a rail connection along the US1 corridor.  Nocatee as a whole is and likely always will be a suburban style development.
Title: Re: Nocatee Development Slowed by Recession
Post by: north miami on September 10, 2010, 03:48:47 PM
The press of Population.

Even corn fields in far flung sections of the mid west can be transformed to planned unitized package.