The Jaxson

Community => Transportation, Mass Transit & Infrastructure => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on May 11, 2009, 05:00:00 AM

Title: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on May 11, 2009, 05:00:00 AM
America Rediscovers The Streetcar

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4256-img_5826-g.jpg)

America has rediscovered the streetcar.  Will Jacksonville?

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/1088
Title: Another BRT System bites the Dust...
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 11, 2009, 08:53:35 AM
FDOT Director (Trying to keep JTA's Blaylock from getting on with Streetcars and "investing" in a BRT trip) Well, it's a whim. Are you going to question a whim? You question a whim and you take the fun right out of it!
JTA Director: Well, would it kill the whim if I just take a shower and put on some clean socks and underwear?
FDOT Director: Sure it will! It's not a whim anymore if you put on clean underwear!
JTA Director: I don't understand it. But I guess a fellow shouldn't question when he's getting a free bus ride.
FDOT Director: That's right! Don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Can you let me have $1 Billion?
{Appologies to the Andy Griffith Show 1964}

The more I learn about this stuff the more I see that BRT was simply an invented name, branded to sell Americans on a "ALL NEW" product. Trouble is the "ALL NEW," is a hoax, the transit agencys generally toss in a few million more of our dollars so they can call a bus a train or, even a Subway. Jacksonville certainly doesn't need this bait and switch crap that other cities have bought into. BRT to fix a rail transit problem is like using an Atomic Bomb to move the homeless out of Hemming Plaza. IE: "It might work, but we're going to pay for it." By the way, our new sister city, Curitiba, has the "Worlds models BRT system," which also runs at the breakneck speed of 12 MPH! Imagine THAT on the Arlington Expressway, or Roosevelt at 5 PM.  

Quote
12 MPH for 2.1 billion - Feds remind us Silver Line Phase 3 is absolutely, positively not going to happen
May 10th, 2009
by Bill
As though the project’s future wasn’t already clear to anyone who heard about the exciting new Silver Line development announced last week - a stunning proposal involving exciting technology and transit planning known as “Driving Around The Corner To South Station” - the Feds have driven another nail into the coffin of the plan that no one outside of the Artery Business Committee er… A Better City wanted.

The Globe has more:

The cost of the MBTA’s plan to build a 1.1-mile bus tunnel under downtown Boston has now officially grown to $2.1 billion, nearly $1 billion more than the estimate from 2006. Just a few months ago, in December, the project budget was about $1.5 billion.


The current tunnel is an expensive failure. With an average speed of 12 MPH it actually takes longer to drive a bus through it than on the road above. Normally you put transit lines in tunnels because that means the vehicles in them can go faster than they could in mixed traffic, but this is Boston, this was the Big Dig and a EOT/MBTA project. So the normal rules of logic and proper planning / execution do not apply.

Take the whole idea of the Silver Line.

Initial Problem:
Replace a heavy rail line connection to downtown.

Solution:
Bus begins at either Logan Airport or the Seaport and travels block after block in mixed traffic under diesel power until it arrives at Silver Line Way, shuts down completely, starts up again under electric power, then runs at 12 MPH through a dedicated tunnel until Charles St. where it stops, shuts down again, restarts its diesel engine, then travels in a dedicated lane that disappears after a few hundred feet and becomes a normal bus line again.

Got that?

For added kicks remember that one 60′ Silver Line bus holds fewer people than one Green Line car. Keep in mind how quickly a two car Green Line train gets packed. Now keep one of the cars home and take away about 1/3 of the useable space in the one that’s left. Then give it a 50% speed reduction and zero ride comfort. Add airport passenger luggage.

That’s the Silver Line.

The first thing to remember about the bus line is that merging the two halves was never really a priority for anyone living in Roxbury. The state has continually repeated the meme that residents there long for a one-seat ride to the airport much to the confusion of people living in Roxbury who can’t remember anyone ever asking for something like that. In fact much has been made of the desire for a one seat ride all the way into downtown Boston. Proponents of such service have pointed to the abandoned tunnels running between Boylston Station and Eliot Norton Park as a possible solution. The MBTA has countered that with claims that the tunnels are too old and unusable. This flies in the face of an engineering survey conducted in 2001… by the MBTA. (See more in the Sierra Club’s report)

The now-dead-for-real-this-time Silver Line plan would have offered Roxbury residents the one-seat ride to the airport no one ever remembers asking for… except when it turned 70% of the buses arriving at Boylston back to the Seaport and Airport. Couldn’t even get that part right.

To allow this the T would need to dig up Boylston St., remove huge swaths of old growth trees on the Common, sneak in a parking garage expansion, likely undermine the foundations of Emerson College’s entire campus, do untold damage to the Central Burying Ground and still manage to put the existing abandoned light rail tunnels permanently beyond use. (See page 18) …and take at least five years to do so.

Keep in mind this is the agency that has spent just as long trying to build a bus shelter above ground at Kenmore and almost destroyed a church trying to dig an elevator shaft at Copley.

The Silver Bus Line is dead, and somehow still expanding. It refused to become anything anyone wants it to be. Roxbury residents are still shortchanged, the rail tunnels still go unused, while Seaport and Airport commuters cram onto cramped buses and enjoy a teeth-chattering 12 MPH ride in a tunnel on rutted, permanently-flooded pavement that ends up a three seat ride to the Back Bay.

Combining a heavy-rail replacement with transit service to a new neighborhood and the role of airport shuttle while ruling out rail entirely was a mistake. Building it the way it was built was a mistake.

Someday a solution will be found, but it should be understood that the Federal investment in the stop-gap plan announced earlier this week means Boston will not be getting billions more = to undo the current, “temporary” project. Not this decade, probably not the next.

Once upon a time there were plans to bury the A, B and E lines. Yes. Really. The center platform at Kenmore was dug to allow the Central Subway to be converted to heavy rail ala the Blue which would continue on into Allston, while the C would remain a streetcar line and loop over the heavy rail tracks below. Until this happened a wooden platform was built over the sunken track pits and used by A and B trains.

The E Line tunnel continued out to somewhere around the Northeastern stop. A temporary wooden incline was built until money was found to continue the subway.

The money never came, and the temporary arrangements became permanent. The track pit at Kenmore and wooden incline on Huntington Ave. were filled in. The MBTA took the closure necessitated by the rebuild of the incline to begin a “temporary” closure of the E Line in Jamaica Plain. Another “temporary” closure had begun on the A Line about 15 years earlier.

Why mention this?

If you continue along the Silver Line tunnel past South Station headed inbound you eventually come to a concrete wall. Beyond it is a stub tunnel leading out into the city. The wall, temporary. The stub tunnel waiting for a purpose.

But I think we have learned all to well what temporary means.

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: JeffreyS on May 11, 2009, 12:30:02 PM
Should our studies count as preliminary planning?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: tufsu1 on May 11, 2009, 02:51:32 PM
Should our studies count as preliminary planning?

not really....the JTA study could qualify...but the real next step is to do a more detailed feasibility study (like the one JTA just did for commutre rail)....then you go into environmental studies.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: brainstormer on May 11, 2009, 06:26:52 PM
I bet the cities on the streetcar map are going to become the "hottest" cities in the next 10 years.  They are going to attract new businesses, new residents and will pull out of the recession far ahead of all others.  I can also bet that they will start to top all of the "best" lists.  Best place to live, best place to raise a family, best schools, best air quality, shortest commutes, happiest people, etc.... I'm looking to get out of Jacksonville and a few of these cities are already on my list.  ;)
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: heights unknown on May 11, 2009, 07:10:37 PM
And the answer is.......nope; Jacksonville will not rediscover street cars, at least not yet or in the foreseeable future.  We can't even get a Court House built properly so why does anyone think that street car lines will be much easier to plan, build, and come to fruition?

Heights Unknown
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: coredumped on May 11, 2009, 07:16:12 PM
So very depressing :(
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: tufsu1 on May 11, 2009, 10:43:07 PM
And the answer is.......nope; Jacksonville will not rediscover street cars, at least not yet or in the foreseeable future.  We can't even get a Court House built properly so why does anyone think that street car lines will be much easier to plan, build, and come to fruition?

I'm not so sure...but we'll have a real good idea of the potential future for streetcars in Jax. in the next few months.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 11, 2009, 11:07:05 PM
Kenosha, New Haven, Savannah, Galveston, Memphis, Little Rock, Albuquerque, San Pedro, Tucson, etc.

Looking at the list of smaller cities either already operating or proposing streetcar systems, I'd say the idea is more than feasible in Jacksonville (depending on the route chosen).  With $100 million in hand, its up to our community to decide if this type of system should be added to our local transportation mix sooner, rather than later.  If so, extra pressure needs to be applied to our local public servants to do the right thing.  Nevertheless, I do believe that every day, week, month and year that we stay at a standstill, the further we fall behind in our future ability to compete with peer cities that are investing in this arena right now.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: JeffreyS on May 11, 2009, 11:35:41 PM
^And I just want me some Riverside streetcars.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 11, 2009, 11:47:13 PM
Before you drink the tea Alice, ask yourselves, do we need one? Our economy is not growing, instead it is contracting. New jobs are not coming in by the droves to downtown or to the areas of town, or maybe those for lease signs all over the southside are just there to clash with the architecture lines of the buildings? Empty strip centers, a JTA trolley system already paid for with gas taxes, and did I see correctly....Tuscon will spend 297 million on a "streetcar" (coincidentally named DESPERATE not desire) that will only run 3.2 miles? At almost 100 million a mile, is it worth it? That is essentially a streetcar line for the same cost as the courthouse.

Uh, in a word, no we don't need a streetcar. Come back to us with this great idea when the economy is growing new jobs. Losing 553,000 jobs in April down from the 600,000 in March, is hardly worth jumping up and down.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: tufsu1 on May 12, 2009, 03:05:11 PM
A related article

http://www.planetizen.com/node/38695 (http://www.planetizen.com/node/38695)
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: tufsu1 on May 12, 2009, 03:15:38 PM
Tuscon will spend 297 million on a "streetcar" (coincidentally named DESPERATE not desire) that will only run 3.2 miles? At almost 100 million a mile, is it worth it? That is essentially a streetcar line for the same cost as the courthouse.

I'd be happy to show you some road projects that cost about as much...Tampa's X-Town connector will cost over $400 million for 1.5 miles between the X-town Expwy and I-4

how about some local examples...
1. 9B - about $200 million for the segment from 9A to I-95 (less than 3 miles)...
2. Interchange modifications at I-10/US 301 - about $100 million in 2009 dollars....
3. I-95 bridge replacement - $175 million for less than 1 mile of road...
3. and finally, how about the beloved section of JTB from I-95 to US 1...try over $100 million

So, should all of these projects not get done too?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: fsujax on May 12, 2009, 03:18:45 PM
haha. Nice examples tufsu1....keep them coming! its perfectly OK to spend whatever on roads, but you better not spend that kind of money of fixed transit.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 12, 2009, 03:44:31 PM
Before you drink the tea Alice, ask yourselves, do we need one?

Yes, lets ask ourselves this question.

Quote
Our economy is not growing, instead it is contracting. New jobs are not coming in by the droves to downtown or to the areas of town, or maybe those for lease signs all over the southside are just there to clash with the architecture lines of the buildings?

I think we both agree that Jacksonville, or at least the place you described in the statement above, is in need of an economic stimulator.  So in regards to the streetcar, we have to determine are these systems worth their investment, in terms of what they bring to the local economy.

Portland Streetcar - $3.5 billion in development within 3 blocks of the 8-mile, $103 million streetcar line since system was approved.

Little Rock River Rail Streetcar - $400 million in development since $28 million, 3.4 mile streetcar system approved.

Tampa TECO Streetcar - $1 billion in private development along alignment since $48.3 million, 2.5 mile line approved and completed.

Kenosha Streetcar - $150 million in private development along line since 2 mile, $5.2 million system approved and constructed.

Memphis Streetcar - $2 billion in private development along streetcar corridors since $94.4 million, 7 mile system approved and constructed.

link: http://www.fortworth-tx.gov/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf

Either the numbers above are all coincidence or it may be something to the idea that streetcars and rail-based transit have the ability to spur economic development.  So if our local economy is on the rocks, people are losing jobs and buildings are empty, why not invest in something that stimulates the local economy, creates jobs, encourages adaptive reuse of existing empty building stock and increases the amount of property taxes coming into the city's hands?

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a JTA trolley system already paid for with gas taxes,

I have presented information above that suggests that real streetcar systems attract economic development.  Can you present information showing that faux trolleys have the ability to do the same?  If not, let's eliminate them from the discussion, since they appear to be different animals that lead to different results.

Quote
and did I see correctly....Tuscon will spend 297 million on a "streetcar" (coincidentally named DESPERATE not desire) that will only run 3.2 miles? At almost 100 million a mile, is it worth it?

This is a question worth asking the City of Tuscon.  From what I can tell, they plan to construct a double tracked (6.4 track miles) modern streetcar system.  If you can have the ability to view mass transit with an open mind, you'll discover that modern streetcar systems cost more than heritage streetcar systems.  You'll also discover that you don't necessarily have to double track right away.  Kenosha and Little Rock are two examples of affordable heritage systems I'd offer as proof of how rail can being affordable to implement.

Kenosha - $5.2 million, 1.9-mile downtown loop streetcar line.  That's a whopping $2.7 million per mile.

Little Rock River Rail - $28 million, 3.4-mile streetcar line.  That's $8.3 million per mile.  

Both of these are a far cry from Tucson's numbers.  At the end of the day, rail can be affordable.  Like anything, the costs get out of hand when you start adding bells and whistles (ex. expensive rolling stock, extra trackage, streetscapes, stations, purchasing extra ROW, etc.).

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That is essentially a streetcar line for the same cost as the courthouse.

Charlotte recently built a courthouse for $148 million.  Jacksonville's will break the $300 million barrier.  However, the devil is in the details.  Charlotte's takes up a small plot of land, while ours consumes seven blocks.  Charlotte's was efficiently developed while we've wasted millions with different development groups, closing streets and moving the utilities under them.  Whether its a courthouse or rail, you can't paint the entire concept with one broad brush.

Quote
Uh, in a word, no we don't need a streetcar. Come back to us with this great idea when the economy is growing new jobs. Losing 553,000 jobs in April down from the 600,000 in March, is hardly worth jumping up and down.

The information provided above suggests the opposite.  Jacksonville needs rail now, more than ever.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: brainstormer on May 12, 2009, 04:57:39 PM
Right on, Lake!  ;D
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: heights unknown on May 12, 2009, 05:34:39 PM
There are cities that are developing streetcar systems, commuter rail, commuter rail lines, etc. that are much smaller than Jax urban wise and metro wise (in population), so, it's got to be our governmental leadership, focus and vision, not to mention poor planning that is the problem. I guess we'll start growing "big gonads" when Peyton and company moves on (hopefully).

Heights Unknown
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 06:05:47 PM
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Jacksonville needs rail now, more than ever.

Jacksonville has rail, its called the Skyway, and it cost $184 MILLION dollars to complete in 2000.

Building rail in Jacksonville is a money sucking venture that the city, nor taxpayers can afford, or need. JCCI showed in 2008 in the quality of life study that 65% of the respondents faced a DAILY commute of 25 minutes or less. So why again do we need to spend millions on something when time is really not the issue? AND most of the people who had the longest commute times were to outside counties. Does Baker, St. Johns, or Nassau have the extra money to help pay for rail?

If you can successfully lobby to get HSR built and profitible in the FIRST year, I will jump on your bandwagon.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: DevilsAdvocate on May 12, 2009, 09:28:13 PM
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

Also, the Skyway doesn't have rail.  Those cars actually run on rubber wheels.  So get your facts straight.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: civil42806 on May 12, 2009, 09:35:15 PM
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

Also, the Skyway doesn't have rail.  Those cars actually run on rubber wheels.  So get your facts straight.

because people actually use the roads?  I don't have a problem with public transportation that doesn't make a profit, look at the bus system.  I do object to a system that consumes huge amounts of money, is ugly as hell, a blight on the downtown landscape, that no one uses, and I don't care where you run it, within downtown,regardless of how many feeders lines you send to it I just dont see people using it. 
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: tufsu1 on May 12, 2009, 09:44:54 PM
do you see folks using the Outer Beltway....for $12 each way?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 12, 2009, 10:49:07 PM
Quote
Jacksonville needs rail now, more than ever.

Jacksonville has rail, its called the Skyway, and it cost $184 MILLION dollars to complete in 2000.

This is rail:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6150-p1130872.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/dublin/LUAS.jpg)


This is a horizontal elevator that doesn't go anywhere - fixed, but not really rail:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6980-p1150885.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7004-p1150899.JPG)


Quote
Building rail in Jacksonville is a money sucking venture that the city, nor taxpayers can afford, or need. JCCI showed in 2008 in the quality of life study that 65% of the respondents faced a DAILY commute of 25 minutes or less. So why again do we need to spend millions on something when time is really not the issue? AND most of the people who had the longest commute times were to outside counties. Does Baker, St. Johns, or Nassau have the extra money to help pay for rail?

I'd favor an investment in rail strictly for its ability to facilitate sustainable growth and the dense redevelopment of areas where public infrastructure is already in place.  However, since you want to focus on commutes, our burbs (Clay, St. Johns and Nassau) have some of the longest commutes in the State.  So if it came to investing +$2 billion in the Outer Beltway or $158 million for commuter rail connecting Clay with Duval, we'll stretch our dollar out more with rail and preserve environmentally sensitive land in the process.

Quote
If you can successfully lobby to get HSR built and profitable in the FIRST year, I will jump on your bandwagon.

I'm not in favor of high speed rail in the current format.  I believe we'll get more bang for our buck enhancing Amtrak.  However, high speed rail, streetcars and commuter rail are all different issues.  So what rail component are you truly against?  Point that one out and we can discuss the pros and cons of that particular corridor or transit technology.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 12, 2009, 10:52:05 PM
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

Also, the Skyway doesn't have rail.  Those cars actually run on rubber wheels.  So get your facts straight.

because people actually use the roads?  I don't have a problem with public transportation that doesn't make a profit, look at the bus system.  I do object to a system that consumes huge amounts of money, is ugly as hell, a blight on the downtown landscape, that no one uses, and I don't care where you run it, within downtown,regardless of how many feeders lines you send to it I just dont see people using it. 

What's your position on more affordable and visually attractive mass transit options, such as streetcars?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 11:04:32 PM
Quote
However, since you want to focus on commutes, our burbs (Clay, St. Johns and Nassau) have some of the longest commutes in the State.

Maybe they are, but that is their choice. The JCCI study did not focus on the people living outside Duval, only those inside. So if those counties want to spend millions per mile on light rail, over the hiring and maintaining of school systems, be my guest. No need to spend millions for a transportation solution that will suck hundreds of millions AND HAS, SKYWAY, with little to no return to the community.

The fact here is that the only rail system, albeit above ground, has failed miserably. The only way your rail system gets built is with private money. Anybody fill the piggy banks yet?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 12, 2009, 11:09:56 PM
Quote
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

184 million dollars for a system that 2200 people ride a month. That is the form of public transportation that resonates with voters as a FAILURE. Call it a monorail, people mover, trolley upside down, it does not matter. The fact is that for the 2.5 mile FAILURE, it cost 184 million dollars, in 2000 funds, and is still a failure.

How do you propose to get past this as problem? Who will run rail in jacksonville, since JTA controlls all transportation in a large public form? I'd much rather have the JTA lose a little money, than fork over another 100 million per mile for something that is 1) Not needed according to the JCCI, and 2) would drain 1/3 of the City budget if built.

Imaging police officers for hire to the highest bidder, imaging firemen who go to fires based on who can write them a check. It will happen if we boondoggle the city with uneeded transportation projects. The police and fire suck up most of the budget now, imaging taking half of theirs to pay for a rail system?

Its OK to dream, but dream with someone elses money.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Lunican on May 12, 2009, 11:26:57 PM
Mtrain, while Skyway ridership is low, your numbers are wrong.

Also, Charlotte is dreaming with our money...

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2997-flickr-carolinatim-1.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3012-flickr-704slacker-1.jpg)
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: JeffreyS on May 12, 2009, 11:36:02 PM
I get the feeling Mtrain knows no one is advocating a system here that is 100 mil per mile. Lake pointed out specifically a system less than one tenth of that cost we should emulate. I think he knows the transit consultant on this site who was in the biz when the skyway was proposed lobbied against it for a cheap much farther reaching streetcar system. I believe he knows the people mover skyway that he loves to quote the price of is no more replaced by cheaper monorail. I think he sees pros of using Amtrak to start the ball at a lesser cost. I do believe he really thinks mass transit even cheaper modes will not benefit Jax the way many of us do. His debating skills while sad do set Lake up to dispell so many misconceptions. For that I thank Mtrain and hope he will be able to figure out skyway doesn't represent all mass transit and their costs and benefits anymore than the cost and usefulness of some exotic sports car represents all auto transportation.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 12, 2009, 11:39:00 PM
Quote
However, since you want to focus on commutes, our burbs (Clay, St. Johns and Nassau) have some of the longest commutes in the State.

Maybe they are, but that is their choice. The JCCI study did not focus on the people living outside Duval, only those inside. So if those counties want to spend millions per mile on light rail, over the hiring and maintaining of school systems, be my guest. No need to spend millions for a transportation solution that will suck hundreds of millions AND HAS, SKYWAY, with little to no return to the community.

Duval is not an island, so how our bedroom communities develop impacts Jacksonville greatly, so maybe the JCCI should conduct a more extensive study.  Rail cars do not run on rubber wheels.  You'll get no argument from me that there are better transit investments out there than overbuilt people mover technology.  Again, the skyway is a different animal from a streetcar or commuter rail.  I don't know why you feel so inclined to put them in the same category.  You're basically comparing dirt roads with the Dames Point Bridge and calling them the same thing.  An insane and illogical argument at best.

As for the JCCI study (please provide a link, btw), economic development is one of the major reasons for investing in rail.  Did the JCCI study factor in the pros and cons of economic development stimulated by rail transit?  If not, its useless in an argument against investing in rail.  

Quote
The fact here is that the only rail system, albeit above ground, has failed miserably. The only way your rail system gets built is with private money. Anybody fill the piggy banks yet?

Trains don't run on concrete beams with rubber wheels.  The only form of passenger rail in Jax is Amtrak's long distance intercity service.  You may not have noticed, but the federal government's outlook on rail did a complete 180 in January.  Just wait and see.  Future passenger services will come from a mix of funding sources (local, federal, state and private).  Either we can be proactive or be pulled, kicking and screaming.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 12, 2009, 11:54:48 PM
How do you propose to get past this as problem? Who will run rail in jacksonville, since JTA controlls all transportation in a large public form?

Depends on the system.  JTA will not be in charge of running an Amtrak corridor service or HSR.  In certain cases, Amtrak even runs commuter rail services.  Streetcars can be run by JTA or an independent authority.  For example, Dallas DART and M-Line Streetcar systems are operated by two different entities.  Again, who runs what will depend on what type of rail you're talking about, which is why I asked you earlier to pick a specific mode or corridor to debate the pros and cons.

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I'd much rather have the JTA lose a little money, than fork over another 100 million per mile for something that is 1) Not needed according to the JCCI, and 2) would drain 1/3 of the City budget if built.

Still waiting to see the JCCI study address rail specifically and for solid proof of how a streetcar or commuter rail line, constructed with transit money already set aside, would drain 1/3 of the city's budget.  Also, local estimates show the cost for a streetcar in the range of $15 million/mile and commuter rail in the $5 to $8 million/mile range.  Go no-frills and those costs take a huge drop.  Why go with the $100 million/mile figure?  Even your rubber wheeled, overbuilt elevated people mover was built for less ($73.6 million/mile).

Quote
Imaging police officers for hire to the highest bidder, imaging firemen who go to fires based on who can write them a check. It will happen if we boondoggle the city with unneeded transportation projects. The police and fire suck up most of the budget now, imaging taking half of theirs to pay for a rail system?

Its OK to dream, but dream with someone elses money.

We have $100 million already set aside for mass transit.  There are specific funding sources at the federal level set aside for mass transit.  No one is advocating using money from sources not already set aside for mass transit.  To suggest such, would truly be considered dreaming.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: JeffreyS on May 13, 2009, 12:01:45 AM
I take back my comment about Mtrain's debating skills being sad. It was just a cheap shot that won't win anyone over. Sorry Mtrain.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 13, 2009, 12:32:13 AM
(http://www.magma.ca/~raksim/images/No_More_Drive_Thru.jpg)

Quote
Hey mtrain, care to explain why its cool to spend millions of dollars to build roads without any expectation of a profit yet any form of public transportation has to be profitable?

184 million dollars for a system that 2200 people ride a month. That is the form of public transportation that resonates with voters as a FAILURE. Call it a monorail, people mover, trolley upside down, it does not matter. The fact is that for the 2.5 mile FAILURE, it cost 184 million dollars, in 2000 funds, and is still a failure.

How do you propose to get past this as problem? Who will run rail in jacksonville, since JTA controlls all transportation in a large public form? I'd much rather have the JTA lose a little money, than fork over another 100 million per mile for something that is 1) Not needed according to the JCCI, and 2) would drain 1/3 of the City budget if built.

Imaging police officers for hire to the highest bidder, imaging firemen who go to fires based on who can write them a check. It will happen if we boondoggle the city with uneeded transportation projects. The police and fire suck up most of the budget now, imaging taking half of theirs to pay for a rail system?

Its OK to dream, but dream with someone elses money.

Looks like MTrain has his Mar's Light On and it's bouncing all over the board to make a point of light.

Sure the Skyway is a failure, so would a hockey club with one skate per player. How about the Magic playing with a half of a ball? Why not quarter the baseballs at the Suns games because we could stretch the dollars farther with 4 pieces per game, rather then the whole ball.

This is exactly the same thing you are asking the Skyway to do. Play with a broken unfinished system. I hated the stupid idea from the get-go, but now that we've sunk $200 Million in it, it's time to see where every dollar went. Fact is the lines and stations didn't cost anywhere near what you think, in fact I'd guess over half is in the shops in Brooklyn. Suddenly people that fought the system along with me, shifted their attacks to the $100 Million a mile fantasy. I have spoken to several monorail builders that claim they can extend it along the lines of a Disney style track for about $20 Million a mile. Add in the $200 Million already spent and 5 miles of extensions to get the lines into both Collector and Distributor neighborhoods drops the overall price to $40 Million per mile for a 7.5.

Had they gone ahead and finished the project back in 2000 we wouldn't need this discussion. My attack on the system was based on the FACT that at that time we could have built 20 miles of LIGHT RAIL for the same $200 Million. But now that we've spent the money on the hard part, IE the O&M center, equipment, automation and stations, it would be downright stupid to quit... Which says a mouthful about Jacksonville's planning. The worst thing we could have done is build a half a system, Skyway, Streetcar, Commuter Rail, Amtrak etc...

Amtrak Auto Train has an operating ratio of 150+ %, So by your logic we should terminate it at the St. Marys River?

Streetcars will NOT depend 100% on locals and business travelers, as we have imagineered a system using VINTAGE, REPRODUCTION and HISTORIC streetcars. Based on World figures we should pull in several thousand per month to make this a real tourist attraction + transit system + development tool. $1,250 dollars returned in new development for every dollar spent on streetcar is nothing we should sneeze at.

Amtrak is where we will score the biggest coup as long as we get the terminal reopened and the micro convention center out of the way. Regional corridor train service based on Florida route performance tells us they should be able to hit an operations ratio of 100% fairly quickly.

But then some of you would have nothing to cry about. I can hear the arguments in Duval and in Tallahassee already - "Okay, so the roof caves in on the students and the school has all these little bodies scattered all over the place, WHY? Because we spent money on rail! " ...Don't make me laugh, RAIL and SCHOOLS do NOT come out of the same pocket, and one has nothing to do with the other.  


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 13, 2009, 05:43:13 PM
We can agree to disagree. The fact remains that the city spend 184 million dollars on something that only 2200 people ride per month. 38000 in contrast ride the bus. So where do you think people will and should put their faith?

Does the JTA break even, nope, but at least with buses, and if someone at JTA would take the energy from all this rail talk and compress it, they would create enough Compressed Natural Gas to run CNG buses for 100+ years, and would take care of all of our transportation issues, that do not exist because 2/3 of residents, according to the JCCI have 25 minute or less commutes.

You are wrong about rail and schools. We all pay for them out of OUR OWN POCKETS, one way or another. We all pay, and we all pay for stupid rail ideas that are not needed in our great city!
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 13, 2009, 05:50:58 PM
I liken this to the future of streetcars in Jacksonville...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP-Potb1LmI

Or even better, and this is with the BELOVED streetcars... OUCH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq9Fu2w4rfc
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 13, 2009, 05:59:43 PM
Quote
We can agree to disagree. The fact remains that the city spend 184 million dollars on something that only 2200 people ride per month. 38000 in contrast ride the bus.

Its not rail and I'm not crazy about the Skyway but we might as well lay the truth out there.  

The city did not spend $184 million for the people mover system.  It was a federal demonstration project funded by the federal government.  What the city has been spending money on is the annual operations and maintainence costs, which is what critics said would happen.  Also, ridership is somewhere around 2200 riders a day, not a month, even though that's nothing to brag about.

Quote
So where do you think people will and should put their faith?

If we're talking about rail, should we put our faith in tall tales and opposition arguments that are easily defeated by real life examples popping up all across the country?  Or should our faith be in implementing proven successful transportation techniques that have been established across the US?  I believe if you frame the argument in this angle, easily defeated tall tales to educated individuals would come up on the short end of the stick.

Quote
You are wrong about rail and schools. We all pay for them out of OUR OWN POCKETS, one way or another. We all pay, and we all pay for stupid rail ideas that are not needed in our great city!

We can chose to take advantage of dedicated transit funding for local rail improvements or we can pay for Charlotte's, Houston's, Cincinnati's and Minneapolis'.  Either way, regardless of how you may feel about it, it will be spent on transportation somewhere in America.  
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 14, 2009, 12:21:30 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/m5YQsdvA5JI&hl
Light Rail only if you absolutely, positively, have to be there on time.

We can agree to disagree. The fact remains that the city spend 184 million dollars on something that only 2200 people ride per month. 38000 in contrast ride the bus. So where do you think people will and should put their faith?

Does the JTA break even, nope, but at least with buses, and if someone at JTA would take the energy from all this rail talk and compress it, they would create enough Compressed Natural Gas to run CNG buses for 100+ years, and would take care of all of our transportation issues, that do not exist because 2/3 of residents, according to the JCCI have 25 minute or less commutes.

You are wrong about rail and schools. We all pay for them out of OUR OWN POCKETS, one way or another. We all pay, and we all pay for stupid rail ideas that are not needed in our great city!

So when we point out that the Skyway was built by the Federal Government and NOT the City of Jacksonville, you simply switch your argument to ridership. So lets look at that ridership.

38,000 daily bus riders on 60 routes = 633 per route per day.
2,200 daily Skyway riders on 2 routes = 1,100 per route per day.

Performance would be even worse for the bus if compaired to the Skyway in Passenger Miles per direction, per hour. So looks like your in for a religious conversion - Putting your faith in fixed route transit.

This would indicate that the skyway is nearly TWICE as attractive to the Jacksonville resident as is the JTA bus, (the same low performing buses you prefer to spend all our transit money on).

So does JTA break even? Nope. But acting on this rail talk will certainly bring more development, which will equal a growing population, more meals served, more tires changed, more seats occupied at the Jags games.  We also don't break even on the road system, which you seem to think is perfectly okay. Frankly I don't know why I have to pay for the road in front of your house either.

2/3 RDS of our residents have a commute of 25 minutes? Really? Wow, let's see MTrain, that would mean with 1.2 million people in our MSA, a full 400,000 of them have a commute over 25 minutes. Imagine nearly a half million a day as a potential Transit market. Damn! We could fill a subway as big as New York City's system. We also have the #1, #5 and #8 worst commutes in the state of Florida. It must be these folks that the state found waste 66,000,000 hours a year on our local roads. So if nearly a half million Jaxsons are stuck for 66 Million hours yearly, please tell me when the volume equals enough for Commuter Rail or Streetcars?  



I liken this to the future of streetcars in Jacksonville...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pP-Potb1LmI

Or even better, and this is with the BELOVED streetcars... OUCH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq9Fu2w4rfc

You liken a wreck on the mainline of the Burlington Northern Santa Fe,  in Kismet, California, to a Jacksonville Streetcar? Please tell us your hobby isn't terrorism and can you explain how a mixed freight hitting head-on with another is funny. I have property out there and quite a bit of my family in the area so I didn't find the reference funny.

Your next video was of a 2 car tram in a European City. A large group of people DIED in this derailment, one of the deadliest crashes in streetcar history, your video shows people being killed so you can make a silly point. The rules for rail are very different there and our vintage equipment is more then equal to theirs. Streetcars were an American invention, (Richmond, Virginia by Mr. Frank Sprague, in 1880, to be exact). European safety standards are much more lax then US and Canadian rules, Asia, Africa, South America and such pay almost no attention to safety or rules. If this is entertainment for you, you'll need more professional help then I can offer. So again how does this translate to Jacksonville?

Oh I get it, it was a Joke, the train and the streetcar wrecked just like the Amtrak Trains and the Streetcars are going to wreck the city of Jacksonville? Did I win the prize for getting the answer right? I'm very worried for a city populated by people with the stupid ideal that $50 Million for an overpass at Beach and Kernan is an investment, but a train from Jacksonville to Chicago, or a streetcar from 5-Points to the stadium are an unacceptable expense.

We agree to disagree? Is that what you want? I could agree with you on that but you obviously have me confused with someone that gives a damn.  


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 14, 2009, 10:07:27 AM
Quote
Either way, regardless of how you may feel about it, it will be spent on transportation somewhere in America. 

Good, let someone else be the brunt of late night jokes for misguided use of "light rail". We don't need it here now, and it is questionable that we need it in the future.

Why don't you and Ock tell us how many pounds of carbon light rail will use? How does your light rail receive its power? Electricty from coal burning power plants? Why not just feed them diesel and we are no better than the current power systems for buses?

Why not think clean with CNG. More fuel efficient and much better on the environment. Plus lower cost per mile, and when you are building a 100 million dollar rail line, you need to count your pennies. I might be more convinced of the "future need" if it was constructed using energy from natural gas plants or if they ran on CNG themselves.

So far in Jax, we have NO CNG filling stations, closest one is near Pensacola.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 14, 2009, 10:08:30 AM
Quote
could agree with you on that but you obviously have me confused with someone that gives a damn.

Then run for office, put your mouth and opinions to work. I did not mean to get you all riled up...
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 14, 2009, 10:16:19 AM
Quote
Either way, regardless of how you may feel about it, it will be spent on transportation somewhere in America. 

Good, let someone else be the brunt of late night jokes for misguided use of "light rail". We don't need it here now, and it is questionable that we need it in the future.

You're right, Portland, Denver, San Diego and Charlotte are all the subject of backwater Waffle House and Hooters jokes. 

Quote
Why don't you and Ock tell us how many pounds of carbon light rail will use? How does your light rail receive its power? Electricty from coal burning power plants? Why not just feed them diesel and we are no better than the current power systems for buses?

Why not think clean with CNG. More fuel efficient and much better on the environment. Plus lower cost per mile, and when you are building a 100 million dollar rail line, you need to count your pennies. I might be more convinced of the "future need" if it was constructed using energy from natural gas plants or if they ran on CNG themselves.

So far in Jax, we have NO CNG filling stations, closest one is near Pensacola.

What makes you think electric rail's energy has to be produced by coal?  Our old landfills are producing a ton of methane.  Why not take advantage of this and other alternative resource to produce energy?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 14, 2009, 10:30:05 AM
Also, it is easier to control the emissions from a single (or small number of) stack at a coal plant, than from hundreds of thousands of cars.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Lunican on May 14, 2009, 10:33:52 AM
Not to mention the energy efficiency of an internal combustion engine is much lower than that of a power plant. Most of the fuel burned by an engine is converted to heat and wasted.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 14, 2009, 10:39:42 AM
Quote
What makes you think electric rail's energy has to be produced by coal?

Where do you plan your "light rail" line will get power here in Jax? JEA uses coal, the plant that feeds most of Jax consumer power in Georgia uses coal. Will we be using the methane from Trail Ridge? JEA has that slated to be used for consumers. What about the wind farm that JEA owns 8% of in Kansas? Transmission costs make that worthless.

So again, where does your power come from for the choo-choo?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Lunican on May 14, 2009, 10:46:40 AM
Are you really suggesting that rail or light rail would not work in Jacksonville because we won't be able to figure out how to power it?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 15, 2009, 04:45:26 PM
Quote
Are you really suggesting that rail or light rail would not work in Jacksonville because we won't be able to figure out how to power it?

Uh, no, but if you were going to run light rail in 5-10 years, why would you have dirty fossil fuel power running something that could be run with a cleaner source of energy. Because the whole premise of using light rail is to take people out of autos and into a more economical form of transportation per person. By the time we get to rail, I predict our ozone rating will be in the dangerously unhealthy category. So burning more dirty fossil fuel will be a step backward.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 15, 2009, 10:08:36 PM
What is the relative pollution to move 150 people in 100 automobiles, or in one streetcar?  My guess (and only a guess) is that, even with JEA's coal-fired plants, the 100 cars are more polluting.

Do you also view plug-in hybrids as polluters since they plug into coal powered electricity?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Ocklawaha on May 17, 2009, 09:39:54 PM
MTrain, Yeah, I'm still nuts... Different day, same old nut.

Charles is more on track with what he is saying then what you suggest with Streetcars. One of the best selling points of TROLLEYS of all types, IE: streetcar, vintage streetcar, Light Rail Transit, Trolley Bus or articulated trolley bus, is that they are fuel flexible.

A quick glance at rail transit around the continent shows some powered by bunker oil, diesel, gasoline, hydroelectric, cng, png, solar, wind, solid waste, and tidal power is coming. Now I know the reply is "Sure, but in Jacksonville, JEA uses....." Maybe they do, but the streetcars won't, in fact power generation is one of the many ways to PAY FOR the streetcars and make them fare free.

Has anyone ever done a study of constant winds on the North Jetties? Did y'all know that in Edmondton the Light Rail System uses and is branded by it's slogan, "RIDE THE WIND."

As for the useless wind farm in Kansas? it's not at all useless. Apparently the function of "The Grid" alludes MTrain. Not unlike the spaghetti of wires under a good model railroad make a great example. Certainly any modeler worth his salt is running a series of main bus wires under that track. Every so many feet, a feed wire runs from the bus to the track. Along with insulated rail joints and toggle switches one can quickly create a complex power grid of their own. With DPDT switches controller 1 might operate segment 1 or segment 1 and 7 or segment 1-7 etc... Controller two might operate segment 1 or segment 1-7 etc... In effect doing the same thing the national electric grid does on a much, much larger scale.

JEA owning a wind farm in Kansas or Oklahoma, Nebraska, the Dakotas, Texas Panhandle or the prairies of Wyoming, Colorado or New Mexico, makes perfect sense. Power in = Power out. Georgia Power with a hand in a new dam in Northern California? FPL working with coal in Wyoming? JEA windfarm in Kansas? TECO working on a geothermal well in the desert? Yep, happens all the time and not only will it benefit us, it could in fact finance and build our streetcar system.  


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 18, 2009, 07:21:40 PM
Quote
When one average Florida household switches a non-gas water heater to a natural gas tankless water heater, it reduces the household carbon footprint by approximately 3,000 pounds every year. That’s about the size of an average rhinoceros.

If just 10,000 Floridians made the switch to natural gas, the state’s carbon footprint would be reduced by 15,000 tons.

Saving 15,000 tons of carbon is equivalent to recycling about 4,700 tons of waste instead of sending to a landfill, or removing the emissions of nearly 2,500 automobiles on Florida roads each year.*

*Source: U.S. Department of Environmental Protection Agency

These are small changes, imagine taking every vehicle in transportation and converting it to NGV? Why not look for a tranportation system that helps use power from providers who are serious about changing the way we pollute the air? Its a small thing to ask for the entire planet. I am sure the rail zealots know that GE is looking to use batteries to help with the new EVO locomotives " GE said the locomotive uses alternating current electric technology, which reduces the amount of fuel it needs by 17 percent compared with the direct current-powered, or DC, locomotives that are commonly used by transportation companies. The locomotive reduces emissions by 70 percent over the DC versions and 600 of the new trains could do the same job as 800 older trains, according to GE". The technology is there, so why not do some good, or are their rail dreams in Jacksonville that closed to new ideas?

Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 18, 2009, 09:49:31 PM
Quote
The technology is there, so why not do some good, or are their rail dreams in Jacksonville that closed to new ideas?

Did you just completely ignore the post above yours?
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: mtraininjax on May 20, 2009, 07:47:34 PM
Quote
Did you just completely ignore the post above yours?

I could not see it through the SMOG your rail system will produce.  :P
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: BridgeTroll on May 21, 2009, 07:49:37 AM
mtrain... if your argument is that trains and rail produce more pollutants than autos you are way off base.  I have been trying to follow your anti train/rail argument on this particular thread and I simply do not understand where you are coming from.  I may be a bit slower than the others here so could you please... just for me... restate your position so I might understand it.

Im just not sure if I should support your position or be against it. :)
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: JeffreyS on May 21, 2009, 11:34:59 AM
BT Mtrain wants to spend our money on other worthwhile projects.  A reasonable point of view.  The problem is, with his strategy of just throwing anything he can think of or has ever heard or read on the wall to see if any of it will stick. I have done the same thing arguing for rail to people.  You end up making so many points that can be easily shot down that some of your core point is lost.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: BridgeTroll on May 21, 2009, 01:17:56 PM
Thanks Jeffrey... It is reasonable to have differing priorities.  And if that is what mtrain thinks then he should just say so.  Throwing "Train Pollution" on the wall is clearly not going to stick... :)  to anything... :)
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on May 21, 2009, 01:31:08 PM
There is nothing wrong with having different priorities.  My wife is as passionate about education as Mtrain.  In regards to rail, the argument here has never been to take dedicated money from other issues like education or crime.  We're pushing for better utilization of transit dollars.  If Mtrain is against money being spend on transit period, he needs to take it up with the government, not Metro Jacksonville.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: reednavy on December 09, 2009, 01:57:46 AM
Toss OKC into this one. With the passage of MAPS 3, downtown will receive a 6 mile street car line. Among many other things like a new convention center and central park where the curret Crosstown Expy (I-40) currently runs downtown. The Crosstown is currently being located a mile south of it's current position.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-voters-say-yes-to-maps-3-proposal/article/3423715?custom_click=lead_story_title
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: JeffreyS on December 09, 2009, 08:49:59 AM
As this country recovers some of it's streetcar hermitage it will make traveling more enjoyable. Hopefully we can add this benefit to our city.
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: CS Foltz on December 09, 2009, 02:51:49 PM
I hope the the current Administration gets with the possible program and soon! They wish to revitilize downtown and the perimeter............well here is the chance! BRT downtown is not the answer, rail could be the right answer!
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: thelakelander on March 28, 2010, 11:21:26 PM
An updated map

(http://www.lastreetcar.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/AmericaRediscoversTheStreetcar.jpg)
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Ocklawaha on March 29, 2010, 12:07:42 AM
How true Lake, and THAT list isn't close to complete!

As we all think the heritage streetcar is the route to go in Jacksonville, due to lower costs and the same benefits here is a list of Heritage Streetcar Operations in North America.

    
Large Size/Scale

Boston, MA

Little Rock, AR

New Orleans, LA

Memphis, TN

Philadelphia, PA

Portland, OR*

San Francisco, CA*

Seattle, WA*

Tampa, FL*

Toronto, ONT*


Medium Size/Scale

Charlotte, NC*

Dallas, TX*

Galveston, TX

Kenosha, WI*

Lowell, MA*

San Pedro, CA*

Tacoma, WA*
   

Tucson, AZ*

Vancouver, BC*


Small Size/Scale

Astoria, OR

Denver, CO

Edmonton, Alberta

El Reno, OK

Fort Collins, CO

Fort Smith, AR

Issaquah, WA

Nelson, BC

Savannah, GA


 

* Systems actively planning/building  significant extensions.



OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: America Rediscovers The Streetcar
Post by: Ocklawaha on March 29, 2010, 12:22:36 AM
Toss in LIGHT RAIL SYSTEMS, which are in effect the streetcars kissing cousins and you REALLY get the scope of this revolution. NOTE that JAX made the cut of those planning a system.

Current and future (under construction) light-rail systems

    * Austin, Texas – Capital MetroRail
    * Baltimore, Maryland – Baltimore Light Rail
    * Boston, Massachusetts – MBTA Green Line and Ashmont–Mattapan High Speed Line
    * Buffalo, New York – Buffalo Metro Rail
    * Camden, New Jersey to Trenton, New Jersey – River Line
    * Charlotte, North Carolina – Lynx Light Rail
    * Cleveland, Ohio – RTA Blue and Green Lines
    * Dallas, Texas – Dallas Area Rapid Transit Light Rail
    * Denver, Colorado – TheRide
    * Houston, Texas – METRO Light Rail
    * Hudson County, New Jersey – Hudson-Bergen Light Rail
    * Los Angeles, California – LACMTA Blue Line, Green Line, Gold Line, Expo Line (Expo Line projected to open in 2010)
    * Minneapolis, Minnesota – Hiawatha Line
    * New Orleans, Louisiana – New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA)
    * Newark, New Jersey – Newark Light Rail
    * Norfolk, Virginia – Tide Light Rail (scheduled opening in 2011)
    * Oceanside, California – SPRINTER
    * Phoenix, Arizona – Valley Metro Rail
    * Philadelphia, Pennsylvania – SEPTA Subway-Surface Trolley Lines and Suburban Trolley Lines
    * Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania – Pittsburgh Light Rail ("The T")
    * Portland, Oregon – MAX Light Rail, Portland Streetcar
    * Sacramento, California – Sacramento Regional Transit District Blue and Gold Lines
    * St. Louis, Missouri – St. Louis MetroLink
    * Salt Lake City, Utah – UTA TRAX
    * San Diego, California – San Diego Trolley
    * San Francisco, California – Muni Metro
    * San Jose, California – Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority
    * Seattle, Washington – Sound Transit Central Link, South Lake Union Streetcar
    * Tacoma, Washington – Sound Transit Tacoma Link
    * Washington, D.C. – Anacostia Streetcar (projected to open in 2012)[16]

 Proposed light rail or modern-streetcar systems

    * Albany, New York - see Albany Light Rail
    * Albuquerque, New Mexico – Albuquerque Rapid Transit Project
    * Arlington, Virginia – Columbia Pike Transit Alternative
    * Atlanta, Georgia – Atlanta Inner Core Transit Feasibility Study, Atlanta Streetcar, Belt Line
    * Bangor, Maine – Bangor to Trenton Transportation Alternatives Study
    * Baton Rouge, Louisiana – Baton Rouge Area Transportation Solutions
    * Birmingham, Alabama – Birmingham Regional Transportation Alternatives Analysis
    * Boise, Idaho – Capital City Development Corp. (City of Boise)[17]
    * Charleston, South Carolina – Charleston Area Regional Transportation Authority
    * Charlotte, North Carolina – LYNX Purple Line, Blue Line Extension/Northeast Corridor (LYNX), LYNX Silver Line
    * Chicago, Illinois – Chicago Transit Authority
    * Cincinnati, Ohio – Southwest Ohio Regional Transit Authority
    * Columbus, Ohio – Central Ohio Transit Authority/City of Columbus.[18] See Columbus Streetcar.
    * Corpus Christi, Texas – Corpus Christi Regional Transportation Authority
    * Detroit, Michigan – Detroit Transit Options for Growth Study [16]
    * El Paso, Texas – Sun Metro Area Rapid Transit Line
    * Fort Worth, Texas – Fort Worth Transportation Authority
    * Grand Canyon, Arizona – Grand Canyon Transit
    * Honolulu, Hawaii – Honolulu High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project
    * Huntsville, Alabama[19]
    * Jacksonville, Florida – Jacksonville Transportation Authority Transportation Alternatives Study
    * Kansas City, Missouri – Heartland Light Rail System
    * Los Angeles, California – Los Angeles Streetcar, Inc. (Downtown Red Car)
    * Louisville, Kentucky – Transportation Tomorrow
    * Madison, Wisconsin – Transport 2020
    * Miami, Florida – Trafficrelief (People's Transportation Plan)
    * Minneapolis-Saint Paul, Minnesota – Central Corridor (Minnesota), Southwest Corridor (Minnesota)
    * Milwaukee, Wisconsin – Milwaukee County Transit System
    * Monterey, California – Transportation Agency for Monterey County (TAMC)[20]
    * New York, New York – Staten Island Light Rail
    * Oklahoma City, Oklahoma – downtown modern streetcar network[21]
    * Pasadena, California – Greater Pasadena Regional Trolley
    * Raleigh-Durham, North Carolina – Research Triangle Regional Public Transportation Authority
    * Richmond, Virginia – GRTC Transit System
    * Rochester, New York – Rochester Rail Transit Committee
    * St. Louis, Missouri - Delmar Loop Trolley
    * Salt Lake City, Utah – Sugar House Streetcar
    * San Antonio, Texas – VIA Metropolitan Transit
    * San Bernardino, California – San Bernardino-Redlands light rail
    * Spokane, Washington – Spokane Regional Light Rail
    * Tampa, Florida – Tampa Bay Area Regional Transportation Authority (TBARTA)
    * Tucson, Arizona – modern-streetcar line[22]
    * Washington, D.C. – Purple Line [17]

Heritage streetcar systems

    * Austin, Texas – Capitol Metro Circulator System (Proposed to connect key destinations to MetroRail).
    * Charlotte, North Carolina – Charlotte Trolley
    * Dallas, Texas – McKinney Avenue Transit Authority
    * Galveston, Texas – Island Transit (Texas) – Galveston Island Trolley
    * Kenosha, Wisconsin – Kenosha Transit / Kenosha Streetcar service
    * Little Rock to North Little Rock, Arkansas – River Rail Streetcar
    * Memphis, Tennessee – Memphis Area Transit Authority Trolley
    * New Orleans, Louisiana – St. Charles Avenue Streetcar
    * Philadelphia, Pennsylvania – SEPTA Route 15 (Girard Avenue Trolley)
    * Portland, Oregon – Portland Vintage Trolley, Willamette Shore Trolley
    * San Francisco, California – F Market, San Francisco cable car system
    * San Pedro, Los Angeles, California – Port of LA Waterfront Red Car Line
    * Savannah, Georgia – River Street Streetcar
    * Tampa, Florida – TECO Line Streetcar System
    * Tucson, Arizona – Old Pueblo Trolley


JUST IMAGINE, When I first approached the City of Jacksonville with this plan some 30 years ago, we would have been the very FIRST CITY to have a Heritage Streetcar System, and the 3Rd newly built "Light Rail" system in over 60 years. Would of, Could of, Should of, THE JACKSONVILLE STORY, and we're still stalled out somewhere between home plate and first base.



OCKLAWAHA