The Jaxson

Community => Transportation, Mass Transit & Infrastructure => Topic started by: Metro Jacksonville on November 24, 2008, 05:00:00 AM

Title: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Metro Jacksonville on November 24, 2008, 05:00:00 AM
New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-7841-brt-north-corridor-a.jpg)

After several years of negative public feedback on their proposed dedicated busways parallel to I-95, JTA has now shifted to an affordable plan that will complement rail in Urban Jacksonville.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/content/view/945
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 24, 2008, 05:47:27 AM
I wonder if this means they will have to fix the stop lights at Blvd and 8th now? The light lasts long enough for one, maybe two cars to get through I can't see one bus making it! Has anyone thoguht about the traffic issues 8th-11th? This stretch of Blvd is very, very busy M-F with the hospital and VA right there....
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: thelakelander on November 24, 2008, 07:51:57 AM
From what I understand, the VA Clinic will be moving to a new facility on Jefferson Street by the time this BRT thing is up and running.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: hanjin1 on November 24, 2008, 07:56:52 AM
sucks for anyone that has a house on blvd st
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Lunican on November 24, 2008, 08:56:01 AM
I'd like to know how long it takes a bus to travel this route today versus how long JTA expects it to take once BRT is implemented.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: JaxByDefault on November 24, 2008, 09:04:52 AM
So for the stop on 8th Street, this would likely mean bus stop with a short staging lane in front of the Shell station porperty and a similar stop on across 8th in grassy buffer of the Shands property.

What kind of TOD/TAD could work with this streetscape, Lake?
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: thelakelander on November 24, 2008, 09:11:00 AM
The best I'm hoping for is nice sidewalks, landscaping and better lighting along the corridor.  I wouldn't expect a massive investment in TODs.  There's a strong relationship between TODs and fixed mass transit, but its pretty sketchy at best with this type of service.  This really isn't much more then glorified express bus service (buses running every 10 mintues).  Imo, JTA would be better off calling it this and driving home the point that its not a substitute for any form of rail.  Quite frankly, they could start running this route today without much problem.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: JaxByDefault on November 24, 2008, 09:19:11 AM
Just as I suspected: BRT brings very little to that area.  >:( 
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: thelakelander on November 24, 2008, 09:23:07 AM
Just better bus frequencies, which is a good thing.  The key is to make sure its not a replacement for any form of rail.  As long as its a complement (this route does complement the S-Line) its okay.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 24, 2008, 11:43:10 AM
How will they add an additional bus stopping lane there at 8th and Blvd? There is NO room. This means an already shortened light that backs up traffic is going to get even more clogged up because a bus is going to be sitting there every 10 mins... This is going to be a nightmare (I think, but hope I am wrong)
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: downtownparks on November 24, 2008, 01:48:39 PM
Why couldn't a trolley be put into this exact route? Gateway to Shands to Rosa Parks would be a great line. Then use the S line to do a Main St-Swisher-Shands(transfer station)-Stanton- EWC- Prime Osbourn? This ties you into to two ends of the Skyway, as well as gives you more connectivity through the north end. Go one step further, add a Bay st Trolley, and an F-Line (I think thats what it was called) Trolley from the Stadium District to Swisher.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: thelakelander on November 24, 2008, 03:02:07 PM
Quote
How will they add an additional bus stopping lane there at 8th and Blvd? There is NO room.

Including parallel parking, the street is currently wide enough for four lanes.  Take away the grass strip between the curb and the sidewalks and it would then be wide enough for six.  This leads me to the conclusion that they will either:

A. Remove parallel parking and restripe the lanes

B. Increase street width by taking advantage of grassy area between the sidewalks and existing curbs.

Quote
This is going to be a nightmare (I think, but hope I am wrong)

The real nightmare was the idea of building a dedicated busway parallel to I-95 and claiming it was just as good as rail.  This route is better for BRT because it:

A. Hits were people live, work, shop and play.

B. Uses existing roads (this makes it affordable).

C. Complements rail (this would not compete with the S-Line).

Quote
Why couldn't a trolley be put into this exact route?

The trolleys aren't much more attractive than a regular bus and they seat less.  Considering this will be a heavily traveled bus corridor, its better to use regular buses that carry more people instead of the faux trolleys. 
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: nvrenuf on November 24, 2008, 05:05:34 PM
Since it is a block away from me I have a couple questions that I hope haven't already been answered elsewhere.

1) What will be the affect on noise and air pollution for those living on or near Boulevard?
2) What if any plan is in place for re-use of the VA building and neighboring parking garage? The property all appears to belong to Shands per the COJ database.

I'm wondering how much busier my street will become due to the BRT.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: DetroitInJAX on November 24, 2008, 05:37:36 PM
Annnnd it comes nowhere near the airport?? why?
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: thelakelander on November 24, 2008, 05:38:26 PM
Since it is a block away from me I have a couple questions that I hope haven't already been answered elsewhere.

1) What will be the affect on noise and air pollution for those living on or near Boulevard?
2) What if any plan is in place for re-use of the VA building and neighboring parking garage? The property all appears to belong to Shands per the COJ database.

I'm wondering how much busier my street will become due to the BRT.

Great questions.  I don't have those answers, but I assume there will be an increase in traffic and noise along Blvd.  As for the VA clinic, I don't know what will happen to it.


Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2008, 08:16:27 PM
Hello class, welcome to BRT 101... (yeah, I really AM a smart ass).


(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/BRT-FT.jpg)

Quote
The GILLIG BRT variant is a combination of styling packages applied to the GILLIG Low Floor bus to enhance appeal, differentiate service, and make a noticeable impact on the community.

The goal of the BRT variant is to add appealing styling without compromising function, performance, reliability, and parts commonality. This variant adds noticeable styling features to the proven Low Floor base vehicle, so while appearance is dramatically enhanced, the functional and working parts of the bus are left unchanged. Suspensions, steering, propulsion, and other chassis systems are the same as in the proven and reliable Low Floor buses, as are the HVAC, doors, driver and passenger amenities. This allows most parts, training, preventative maintenance, usage, as well as vehicle dependability to be common with the rest of the GILLIG Low Floor bus fleet.

The BRT variant includes three new cosmetic styling feature packages. First, we re-designed the front cap to incorporate a one-piece sloping windshield and triangular quarter windows. A new headlight arrangement, bumper, and a new dash, along with a new rear cap and matching taillights add to the stylish look. Additionally, flush side windows can be integrated for a smooth and clean side appearance. Front and rear roof fairings can be added as an optional third element. These cosmetic changes maximize appearance impact while minimizing functional changes.

The BRT variants are available on 30', 35', and 40' Low Floor models and can be ordered along with the Hybrid variant for maximum community, environmental and economic impact.  If you want to make a strong and positive impact on your community with minimal product or performance risk, this is the way to do it!

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/BRThybrid.gif)

Quote
THE GILLIG HYBRID
 
The GILLIG Hybrid is a variant of the Low Floor model that is powered by a clean diesel hybrid electrical propulsion system. It reduces emissions, saves on fuel and is smoother and quieter than a conventional bus, so it is environmentally and economically responsible while also being passenger and community friendly.

The GILLIG Hybrid bus development was started in the early 1990’s and was the result of years of research and testing which included field testing of many alternative fuel technologies (Methanol, Ethanol, Fumigated Ethanol, bio-diesel, CNG, LNG, LPG and Hydrogen fuel cells). The diesel hybrid was chosen as being the most promising new propulsion system with the fewest concerns and the most benefits.

The hybrid drive system is supplied by GM’s Allison Division, and uses the latest parallel drive technology which is more efficient than the traditional series systems.  Long life, non-hazardous, and maintenance free NiMH batteries capture and store braking energy and advanced solid state controllers manage and blend power sources to optimize performance and efficiency.

This variant is available in 30', 35', and 40' Low Floor bus models, and can be combined with the BRT styling packages.  As usual, Altoona testing shows these buses to be the most reliable (fewest issues, least downtime), the quietest and the most fuel-efficient. This is the way to save money and fuel while also getting praise from the community and environmentalists!

Environmental responsibility is a necessity and at GILLIG its a reality.

Environmental responsibility? It IS at Gillig, but to save money, JTA and FDOT bought the "style of the BRT" with standard diesel equipment.

(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/8-11-08046.jpg)
Hey, at least we got the cool original pimped out paint scheme...

But all things being equal, this is a GREAT MOVE by JTA, and once it clicks, your traffic problems may even get solved in the process. I, for once will be cheering JTA to do it right - and as it now looks, we could be headed in that direction.



(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/Transporte%20Bus%20Truck%20HIGHWAY/BusColombiachiva-1.jpg)
 

 
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 24, 2008, 08:34:57 PM
Will this get the buses off of pearl Street or LESS buses on Pearl St? Can we not have one street that we don't have to get stuck behind or watch out for buses trying to run us off the road? Why is there a bus route on Main, Pearl, and now Blvd???!!!


if you can't tell I am NOT a bus fan...rail is whole different story though!
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 24, 2008, 09:09:08 PM
The patrons on Pearl might feel different about those buses, they're running on a Streetcar route that dates to about 1900!

That said, the BRT systems tend to "suck up" all surrounding routes, but consolidation is not always a good thing when distribution is your business. The new trend is toward BRT doing the long haul, then order short buses for neighborhood services or feeder routes.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND - like it or not, the BUS is not the enemy. The Auto IS! Even if the automobile could be made to run on dirty bath water, and produce only pure mountain air, it still has paved over the equal of about 8 Northeastern States! That alone will change the climate and God-knows-what will happen as a bi-product of the auto game. Weather gone nuts? Squid that eat people accending to ALASKA? Mountain Lions that haven't done damage in 50 years, now attacking joggers and eating bikers in LOS ANGELES? Rattle snake invasions of homes in Lancaster CA? Black bears invading rural NJ? Who knows? How much have we done to cause this?

Which inspired me to my "first effort" at cyber-art yesterday.  


(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/ADDICTEDTOTHEWHITELINESREDVERSIO-3.jpg)
OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on November 24, 2008, 09:10:32 PM
You mean to tell me you will not be riding on our upscale BRT. The rest of the counrty is envy of us.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 25, 2008, 12:21:17 AM
Don't sweat it Keith, I'll be the one with the straw!

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 25, 2008, 06:55:00 AM
I wonder if we swabbed the inside of a bus what we would find? Maybe it is a good thing it will run right past Shands LOL!!!!

Anyway I have ridden the bus to work and back in many places I have lived. The majority of these places did not have a bus route running parallel to each other every two blocks or a bus stop on every corner through residential areas. They <GASP> expected people to be able to walk a block or two to catch a bus!


btw, unless the car has a home stereo system and is balsting rap it doesn't rattle the windows of my house...
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: thelakelander on November 25, 2008, 07:16:01 AM
The purpose of a BRT route is to eliminate the multiple bus routes.  If they do turn Blvd. into a BRT corridor, there's a good chance you won't have routes paralleling each other every two blocks. 
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 25, 2008, 09:53:57 AM
If it replaces the Pearl St route then this is GOOD, very very GOOD news for a lot of people.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 25, 2008, 10:30:22 AM
I don't believe in practice it is going to wipe out ANY routes. I think you will see the changes come to sections of routes, area's that are long on miles and short on ridership will fold over to the new BRT. Those with heavy ridership are not the ones you want to target for the axe - like it or not.

This is what I ment by "BRT tends to suck up surrounding routes", but it WON'T eliminate them. Like a trip to the Airport, one can use Main or I-95 or some combination of both. BRT will just give JTA more options, it's not going to do a hell of a lot to cast a magic spell over our buses and morph them into trains.

Buses are best at what buses do, and trains are best at what trains do...


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 25, 2008, 11:50:09 AM
But if they are all coming through the area and headed to the same place downtown why have stops on ever other corner two blocks form eachother. This slows down both routes and just adds duplicate traffic. I think people can walk two blocks to catch a dang bus or am I wrong?
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: thelakelander on November 25, 2008, 11:58:39 AM
Going off of Ock's comments, while it won't necessarily "eliminate" routes, it should result in several routes being rerouted to eliminate the duplication of services.  This was the whole purpose they wanted to originally stick the downtown E/W corridor down Adams Street. 
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 25, 2008, 01:55:11 PM
Quote
I think people can walk two blocks to catch a dang bus or am I wrong?

I don't think your wrong on this, but it is not that clear. There are people that could and would walk 4 miles to get around town, and those who cannot EVER walk at all. JTA has handicap service for those who use them, but then, there is this whole gray area of folks that can walk a block, two blocks, 1/3 mile, down the driveway, etc. Do we want to put all these riders on the "short bus".  

OCKLAWAHA  
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 25, 2008, 02:25:07 PM
I know you do not really want me to answer that LOL!
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 25, 2008, 04:57:57 PM
Gotta love you girl! Habla SUCRE SAL?

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: TheProfessor on November 26, 2008, 12:13:53 AM
I am currently visiting San Francisco and their primary mode of public transportation is the bus and it works great for the city.  In San Francisco they really mix up transit from the electric buses, to motorized buses, to cable cars, to light rail.  I think Jax can learn a lot from San Fran's bus system and how well it works here.  The most important thing I have found is frequency.  Not waiting long for the bus makes all of the difference.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 26, 2008, 09:12:15 AM
Hello Proff. The key is in the mix. Without it, it's just a bus, With it, it's MASS TRANSIT. Your right though that SF is the Valahalla of Transportation.  

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: BridgeTroll on November 26, 2008, 09:58:29 AM
If I might add... It is the entire Bay area as mass transit efficiently connects SF, Oakland, San Jose, and all the cities in between.
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 26, 2008, 10:30:57 AM
Thanks Troll, in FACT the last election passed new funding for North Bay Commuter Rail to return, now they're talking all the way to Eureka again. The old Northwestern Pacific "REDWOODS" train route. The Eel River canyon is going to be the Bitch!  

OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: uptowngirl on November 26, 2008, 01:02:18 PM
But what a beautiful trip that would be!!!!
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Ocklawaha on November 26, 2008, 01:37:07 PM
Oh it's beautiful alright, back in the day girl... Anyway, they have to rebuild whole sections that the river took out back around 1997. It's an amazing ride (or was) anyway, cruising along 100' above the rapids on a shelf - tunnel - bridge - tunnel - bridge - tunnel - shelf - tunnel - bridge - shelf - tunnel etc...  Not a flat spot in 50 miles.


(http://sunnyfortuna.com/railroad/images/esrr_small.jpg)
By the way the old REDWOOD was operated with RDC or RAIL DIESEL CARS. A newer version by passenger cars on the Eureka Southern Railroad. After the ES bit the dust due to bad track conditions in the canyon, the Northwest Rail Authority took control and operated freight out of Eureka until the flood closed the line. Now looks like we are going to get it back.  


OCKLAWAHA
Title: Re: New Route Revealed for BRT North Corridor
Post by: Matt on December 07, 2008, 07:12:56 PM
I am currently visiting San Francisco and their primary mode of public transportation is the bus and it works great for the city.  In San Francisco they really mix up transit from the electric buses, to motorized buses, to cable cars, to light rail.  I think Jax can learn a lot from San Fran's bus system and how well it works here.  The most important thing I have found is frequency.  Not waiting long for the bus makes all of the difference.
agreed. i usually have to get up an extra 30 minutes early in the mornings to catch the bus because of its schedule... so most of the time i drive.