The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: thelakelander on September 20, 2021, 09:13:12 AM

Title: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: thelakelander on September 20, 2021, 09:13:12 AM
Quote
Mark Woods: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village

The JAX Chamber is preparing to head to St. Louis for its latest leadership trip.

I could use this for an easy column, poking fun at this annual exercise, pointing out how what happens in Vegas, Denver, Dallas, Boston and all the other past destinations tends to stay in Vegas, Denver, Dallas, Boston and all the other past destinations.

But if city leaders are going to do these trips, I like the idea of them taking one to St. Louis.

When the census came out recently and showed our metropolitan area had grown to 1.6 million people, one of my thoughts was: This is a nice size for a city.

Full Editorial: https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2021/09/19/jax-chamber-headed-st-louis-latest-leadership-trip/8349154002/
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: Charles Hunter on September 20, 2021, 11:08:28 AM
From the editorial
Quote
I don’t know if the St. Louis natives in my life will agree with this, but I’d say we have more to work with in Jacksonville. The Mississippi River is mighty. But there are more beautiful rivers in America. One of them winds through Jacksonville. Framed by our bridges and skyline, it has so much potential.

Of course, that’s what we’ve been saying for years. It’s part of the annual exercise.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: jaxlongtimer on September 20, 2021, 11:26:07 AM
These junkets are mostly "See America" trips paid for by employers or taxpayers (via business tax deductions or as "City business" by elected or agency officials).   It also creates some added comradery among the Chamber's upper echelon (as if they needed more than already exists).

I can't think of one thing done here that was so unique that we could say one of these trips inspired it.  There are more good ideas and lessons to follow on the Jaxson than they will ever get from these boondoggles.  Too bad they aren't paying more attention here.
 
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: tufsu1 on September 20, 2021, 02:37:22 PM
The editorial notes that the Delmar Loop was recognized by the American Planning Association as one of the nation's 10 best streets in a given year. Not noted is that Laura Street in downtown Jax. also has the same distinction (from 2015).
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: CityLife on September 20, 2021, 03:38:34 PM
St. Louis is currently the murder capital of cities over 100k in the US, with a murder rate of 65 per 100,000. Those numbers do not even include East St. Louis which is across the river from Downtown. East St. Louis has a murder rate of 96 per 100,000. For comparison, Chicago's is only 18 per 100,000.

While other cities have made major gains and improvements to their downtown's and inner cities, St. Louis has been experiencing flight and has office vacancy issues downtown.

https://www.stltoday.com/business/local/deal-to-sell-at-t-tower-falls-through-keeping-another-building-empty-in-downtown-st/article_69c2db4c-8a06-5232-bbb3-78d31d3b93f7.html

Perhaps Jax's leaders should visit a successful city, not one that many people consider one of the biggest examples of a failing city in the US.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: thelakelander on September 20, 2021, 03:55:47 PM
I liked St. Louis when I visited about a decade ago. However, the best parts are some of the older neighborhoods and parks outside of downtown. Downtown was struggling back then, although still more vibrant than Downtown Jax.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: landfall on September 20, 2021, 04:03:51 PM
I don't think Ballpark Village and Lot J is a fair comparison. Whilst I found Downtown St. Louis to be dead bordering on dangerous at points, Ballpark Village was one of the few bright spots and it blended in with the rest of Downtown, whilst Lot J sits out on an island.

The area up around their Convention Center/The Dome where the Rams played is probably the worst area of any Downtown I've been to amongst major American cities. It was a ghost town and very shady. The river is also filthy and the views over to Illinois are beyond uninspiring so I can't see their riverfront ever picking up.

Nice Transit Center to be fair. Thats a lesson for Jax there.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: vicupstate on September 20, 2021, 04:17:53 PM
It has been many years now, but when I visited St. Louis, the DT area seemed pretty vibrant, although not a lot of people were around, which I attributed to it being a Saturday. The area was clean and not sketchy looking at all.  This would have been about 1999-2002 or so.

Nevertheless, these trips are a total waste of money as we have seen for many years now.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: pierre on September 20, 2021, 06:33:00 PM
I liked St. Louis when I visited about a decade ago. However, the best parts are some of the older neighborhoods and parks outside of downtown. Downtown was struggling back then, although still more vibrant than Downtown Jax.

This was my experience as well.

Maybe they’re going for the great Italian food.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: acme54321 on September 20, 2021, 09:18:27 PM
The area up around their Convention Center/The Dome where the Rams played is probably the worst area of any Downtown I've been to amongst major American cities. It was a ghost town and very shady. The river is also filthy and the views over to Illinois are beyond uninspiring so I can't see their riverfront ever picking up.

I take it you've never been to Baltimore?
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: fieldafm on September 21, 2021, 12:43:48 PM
Washington Avenue is what streets in Downtown Jacksonville used to look like, until City leaders found out what a wrecking ball was.

Citygarden is nice.

Delmar Loop is nice.

Neighborhoods like Forest Park have interesting bones... but like most of St Louis, shows the scars of a multi-decade city-wide population loss.


But, this Chamber trip has one single goal in mind... getting local business leaders behind Lot J by visiting Ballpark Village.  Don't kid yourself otherwise.   
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: jaxlongtimer on September 21, 2021, 12:58:10 PM
^ You mean they aren't even going to see the Gateway Arch to study an "icon" we might learn from?  LOL  8).

By the way, the article below has an interesting take on the Arch's development and displacement of 40 acres of a vibrant area.  As with any icon, it wasn't without controversy.  I also note that it's stainless steel so maybe our chamber members can at least learn how they manage reflections of the sun. 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/story-st-louis-gateway-arch-180956624/
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 21, 2021, 01:24:28 PM
But, this Chamber trip has one single goal in mind... getting local business leaders behind Lot J by visiting Ballpark Village.  Don't kid yourself otherwise.

It’d be a stunning demonstration of arrogance to try and bring Lot J up again this soon. Unless the terms are substantially different from last time, with numbers that make sense, it’d be a fool’s bargain to try again. Especially now that the hype over Urban and Lawrence have died down and people are getting mad about the on-field performance again. Not to mention that we’re already spending nearly $200m on the Four Seasons development (which is going to have a phase 2) and the performance center, plus the park that has to exist for the state to approve a land swap.

I’d be surprised if there’s going to be much appetite for anything until the stadium renovation is on the table.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: jaxoNOLE on September 21, 2021, 01:46:51 PM
But, this Chamber trip has one single goal in mind... getting local business leaders behind Lot J by visiting Ballpark Village.  Don't kid yourself otherwise.

It’d be a stunning demonstration of arrogance to try and bring Lot J up again this soon. Unless the terms are substantially different from last time, with numbers that make sense, it’d be a fool’s bargain to try again. Especially now that the hype over Urban and Lawrence have died down and people are getting mad about the on-field performance again. Not to mention that we’re already spending nearly $200m on the Four Seasons development (which is going to have a phase 2) and the performance center, plus the park that has to exist for the state to approve a land swap.

I’d be surprised if there’s going to be much appetite for anything until the stadium renovation is on the table.

I'm not sure it would be that ridiculous to see it back sooner rather than later. Lot J failed by 1 vote when it required a supermajority to pass, and Hazouri was one of the champions for rigorous vetting on that deal. Morgan and Dennis are likely "yes" votes if the breadbox loan goes away. I would imagine any new proposal will cut Cordish out, based on Lamping's past comments, and probably follow the Four Seasons process, so the transparency and process-oriented concerns raised by the Carlucci/Ferraro/DeFoor "no" contigent probably don't apply.

Slap a new name on the project, tweak it just enough to say "it's not Lot J," and I think Khan probably has more paths to victory than defeat.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: Charles Hunter on September 21, 2021, 01:48:27 PM
Are any potential 2023 council candidates going on the trip?
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: landfall on September 21, 2021, 04:12:38 PM
I'm sure this trip to St. Louis was planned pre covid and was cancelled last year.

I can't help but think a rehash of Lot J will come along eventually. That's a big gaping hole in between their training complex and the riverfront developments they are proposing.

I'd expect the office space  to be gone and the live arena to be gone or a version of it without cordish branding.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: jaxoNOLE on September 21, 2021, 05:27:14 PM
A non-Cordish take on the Live! arena should be the whole point of doing anything in Lot J. It was the other components that seemed completely outrageous and over-priced.

Things need to happen in the area for the Four Seasons to succeed. I doubt Khan is going trust all of that to the Berkman developer and prayers that the city follows through on a world-class Shipyards park anytime soon.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: tufsu1 on September 22, 2021, 04:54:37 PM
Ballpark Village is not a good comparison for one BIG reason -

Yes they have baseball 81 games a year - but we have baseball, arena events, and football over 100 times a year in the sports complex.

But location - Ballpark Village is adjacent to the central core of St. Louis, not a mile away from the central core!
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: tufsu1 on September 22, 2021, 04:56:10 PM
^ You mean they aren't even going to see the Gateway Arch to study an "icon" we might learn from?  LOL  8).

oh they are - they will see how iconic LERP can be
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: slyle on September 23, 2021, 08:35:06 AM
I am on this website frequently and read the comments a lot but don’t comment myself much. But since someone has mentioned lot J again ,it seems to me, a logical solution would be to take the present indoor practice facility and change it to entertainment uses like the lot J live arena was going to be. With the new 120 million jaguar facility including a practice field indoors, the present facility is going to have a hard time finding something useful to use it for in its present state.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: landfall on October 12, 2021, 02:53:17 PM
Has anyone ever read much into the Titletown District in Green Bay?

That looks a much better benchmark of stadium surrounding development for the Jags than Ballpark Village or the vanity project that is the Four Seasons.
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: tufsu1 on October 13, 2021, 04:26:21 PM
I am on this website frequently and read the comments a lot but don’t comment myself much. But since someone has mentioned lot J again ,it seems to me, a logical solution would be to take the present indoor practice facility and change it to entertainment uses like the lot J live arena was going to be. With the new 120 million jaguar facility including a practice field indoors, the present facility is going to have a hard time finding something useful to use it for in its present state.

The Jags proposal is to turn the existing practice facility over to the City - there are very few active ball fields near downtown - it could be very useful for youth football and soccer leagues
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: landfall on October 21, 2021, 06:47:17 AM
Check out today's Daily Record. Sounds like they want another go at Lot J, in the near future, and possibly with Cordish still involved!
Title: Re: When Jacksonville leaders visit Missouri, show 'em more than Ballpark Village
Post by: thelakelander on October 21, 2021, 07:46:47 AM
It was a given that the project would circle back around. It will eventually get done. Hopefully the deal for taxpayers will be significantly better the next time.