The Jaxson

Community => Politics => Topic started by: jaxlongtimer on June 23, 2021, 05:35:24 PM

Title: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 23, 2021, 05:35:24 PM
DeSantis appears to be following in the steps of George Orwell's 1984, Iran, North Korea, Russia and China as he signs a bill "surveying" professor's points of view so he can regulate "thought" at universities. The similarities, by example, to what China is doing to Hong Kong are striking and scary.

Like any society experiencing governmental intervention in intellectual pursuits, I expect Florida's state universities to begin suffering a brain drain as intellectuals look to find more "hospitable" institutions.
Quote
Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida on Tuesday signed legislation requiring the state's public colleges and universities to survey students, professors, and staff members about their political views in an effort to crack down on intellectual "indoctrination" on campuses.

DeSantis, a potential 2024 presidential contender who's closely aligned with former President Donald Trump, threatened to cut funding from state universities that he determines don't promote "intellectual diversity."

During a press conference at a middle school in Fort Myers, the governor said campuses that are "hotbeds for stale ideology" were "not worth tax dollars, and that's not something that we're going to be supporting going forward."

The bill says the annual surveys would assess "intellectual freedom and viewpoint diversity" and determine "the extent to which competing ideas and perspectives are presented" and whether students, professors, and staffers "feel free to express their beliefs and viewpoints on campus and in the classroom."....

https://www.businessinsider.com/desantis-signs-law-to-punish-student-indoctrination-at-florida-universities-2021-6

China does the same in Hong Kong:
Quote
In the year since China passed a sweeping national security law for Hong Kong, the mainland government has steadily tightened its grip on the city, quashing the pro-democracy movement.

Officials said they would censor Hong Kong films that they considered a threat to Beijing’s sovereignty, a sharp slap to the city’s artistic spirit. In March, Pro-Beijing lawmakers called for work by the dissident artist Ai Weiwei to be barred from a museum. Courts have sentenced pro-democracy activists to prison. And last week, the police raided Apple Daily, the biggest openly pro-democracy newspaper in the city, arrested its top editors and froze its bank accounts. Today, the newspaper said it would close this week...

A lot has changed, but all in line with a general trend: increasingly harsh, and overt, suppression of the rights that made Hong Kong different from mainland China. An annual vigil on June 4, to commemorate the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre against pro-democracy protesters in Beijing, was banned.

China has overhauled Hong Kong’s election system. Before anyone can run for office, they will have to pass a screening committee set up by Beijing. The central government had gotten worried that pro-democracy residents were going to try to sweep the upcoming legislative elections. So Beijing passed another top-down order, as it had with the security law.

There are a few major changes. Only “patriots,” defined by a screening committee, will be allowed to run for office.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/23/briefing/china-hong-kong-apple-daily-closure.html


Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 23, 2021, 05:47:55 PM
Change the references in the first article to some blue-state governor, but leave all the other words the same, and Tucker Carlson and the rest of the Trumpists would be in full-blown loon mode.

How easy would it be for 'undesirable' people on college campuses to game the system by answering the survey in ways to please DuhSantis?
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: vicupstate on June 23, 2021, 05:48:49 PM
Scary times indeed.

As bad as DeSatan is, he isn't alone. There had to be a majority in both Houses for it to pass. Floriduh and Texass lead the way in the demise of American Democracy. China is quickly becoming the most important nation in the world and the US is becoming more like them at the same time. The world became dramatically more democratic in the last 50-60 years, but it is headed in the opposite direction now. By 2030-2040 the world could be a far different place than it is now, and not in a good way.     
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Tacachale on June 23, 2021, 06:24:38 PM
Very scary precedent. Something few conservatives would have touched a 10 foot censor bar even 10 years ago.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 23, 2021, 07:49:39 PM
No need to read further than Desatan and duhsantis... name calling is pathetic and clearly comes from a position of weakness...

Please continue...  :)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 23, 2021, 09:02:55 PM
OK, "name-calling bad" - there are posts critical of the new law. Feel free to defend the merits of inquiring about the political positions of university faculty and students, along with the threat to reduce funding for "undesirable ideologies."
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 23, 2021, 09:59:35 PM
I'm exhausted by the overwhelming one-sidedness of most university "intellectuals". I recall a class on "multiculturalism " I was required to complete in order to graduate from a public Florida university that was exclusively left-of-center. Multiple selected readings from Marx, including arguments about the evils of money, but they willingly cashed my tuition checks.

No, universities are not pure vestiges of free thought anymore. I don't care for the government meddling in thought policing, nor do I care for DeSantis, but public universities are themselves an arm of the government, so...political bias in public universities is a form of thought policing, too. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's not surprising to see backlash against curricula that increasingly teach us to be ashamed of many of the defining characteristics that used to form the concept of "American exceptionalism", which any college campus will now dutifully inform you is a white-privileged and racist concept.

Yes, shame on DeSantis for this overreach. But my goodness, talk about pearl-clutching: shame on universities for failing to maintain a spirit of civic debate and open-mindedness in favor of causes and controversies du jour.

Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 23, 2021, 10:01:16 PM
A couple of other points: 

1.  Which university departments have professors "indoctrinating" students?  Chemistry, biology, math, physics, English literature, Spanish, French, criminology, sociology, geography, medicine, veterinary, dental, law, economics, accounting, finance, IT, statistics, marketing, culinary/hospitality, journalism/media, visual arts , theater, music, architecture, nursing, environmental sciences, engineering, political science, physical education, food science, fashion design/merchandising, sports*... Really, how does this even begin to play out?

2.  This appears to be V 2.0 of the attack on critical race theory.  More Tallahassee big government meddling in local issues and free thought.  Just the opposite of what DeSantis and his ilk complain about the Feds.  How about practicing what you preach?!

*  Are we going to have both a Republican and Democrat teacher/coach/janitor/cafeteria worker/administrator/college president for every class, sport and staff position so things are "balanced?"  Just double the payroll across the board?

Ironically, the governor appoints most or all of the trustees of our state universities.  Most are picked for their politics so no doubt trustees lean to his liking.  Is he going to balance out the trustees and pick some left leaning ones to insure no Republican "indoctrination" at the trustee level?  John Thrasher was a Republican speaker of the house and Republican party chair before becoming FSU president.  What does DeSantis say about that?

 
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: vicupstate on June 23, 2021, 10:03:40 PM
No need to read further than Desatan and duhsantis... name calling is pathetic and clearly comes from a position of weakness...

Please continue...  :)

Sorry, not sorry.

The man is dangerous and is destroying a country many gave their lives to create. I am not going to treat a tyrant with respect.   
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 23, 2021, 10:06:39 PM
^Jaxlongtimer: well, that's the challenge. Universities should protect the expression of diverse points of view on both sides of the aisle. If anything, more controversy is better as it encourages debate.

True balance should be the product of freedom, not regulation. When you see conservative speakers and student groups censored or denied a platform, that's not freedom. If a free and open debate skews left, so be it. :)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: vicupstate on June 23, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
I'm exhausted by the overwhelming one-sidedness of most university "intellectuals". I recall a class on "multiculturalism " I was required to complete in order to graduate from a public Florida university that was exclusively left-of-center. Multiple selected readings from Marx, including arguments about the evils of money, but they willingly cashed my tuition checks.

No, universities are not pure vestiges of free thought anymore. I don't care for the government meddling in thought policing, nor do I care for DeSantis, but public universities are themselves an arm of the government, so...political bias in public universities is a form of thought policing, too. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's not surprising to see backlash against curricula that increasingly teach us to be ashamed of many of the defining characteristics that used to form the concept of "American exceptionalism", which any college campus will now dutifully inform you is a white-privileged and racist concept.

Yes, shame on DeSantis for this overreach. But my goodness, talk about pearl-clutching: shame on universities for failing to maintain a spirit of civic debate and open-mindedness in favor of causes and controversies du jour.



Why is reading what Marx ACTUALLY said, rather than what popular culture wants you to believe he said, a bad thing?

Did you see what the Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staffs said today on this subject? 

If not, check this out: https://twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1407780765421740032?s=20 (https://twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1407780765421740032?s=20)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 23, 2021, 10:27:19 PM
^it's not bad. But pushing only that perspective, and teaching it as truth (which was my experience in that one class), as part of a class that is government mandated to fulfill graduation requirements, is tantamount to indoctrination. And the irony was that the class was to fulfill a "multicultural " learning requirement, and it was one of the least perspective-diverse classes in my curriculum.

No, that one experience is not statistically meaningful, but you asked, so I thought I'd elaborate.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 23, 2021, 10:51:25 PM
I'm exhausted by the overwhelming one-sidedness of most university "intellectuals". I recall a class on "multiculturalism " I was required to complete in order to graduate from a public Florida university that was exclusively left-of-center. Multiple selected readings from Marx, including arguments about the evils of money, but they willingly cashed my tuition checks.

No, universities are not pure vestiges of free thought anymore. I don't care for the government meddling in thought policing, nor do I care for DeSantis, but public universities are themselves an arm of the government, so...political bias in public universities is a form of thought policing, too. Two wrongs don't make a right, but it's not surprising to see backlash against curricula that increasingly teach us to be ashamed of many of the defining characteristics that used to form the concept of "American exceptionalism", which any college campus will now dutifully inform you is a white-privileged and racist concept.

Yes, shame on DeSantis for this overreach. But my goodness, talk about pearl-clutching: shame on universities for failing to maintain a spirit of civic debate and open-mindedness in favor of causes and controversies du jour.

"Free thought" to me includes a good bit of thinking "outside the box."  By that, I mean challenging the status quo and considering new and novel ways to address society's issues and problems.  It doesn't mean all such ideas that are generated by the process are good and/or viable, but it does imply a "liberal" or open minded approach that challenges defenders of the status quo (i.e. conservatives).  To me, due to their primary mission of expanding thought, this makes universities and much of our media fall more into the "liberal" think mindset and I don't see it ever disappearing.  Even in the most restrictive societies, such as Russia, China, Iran, etc., universities and media (other than state run) tend to be the bastions of "liberalism," i.e. challengers to the status quo.

Virtually all advances in civilization have been the result of such "outside the box" thinking starting with challenging conservative/orthodox theology or other entrenched institutional explanations for the world around us.  "Progress"/societal advancement is by its very nature a creation of someone finding a "newer and better" way to do things that those before them had not envisioned, contemplated, tested, or attempted.  Again, it is "liberal" thinking that accomplishes this.

We can live like a truly conservative/tradition bound society but that would put us in the "third world" status where such societies generally reside.  Even "second world" countries like Russia and China suffer from a hybrid of this world view.

Notably, the very creation of our country was founded on what, in its time, was considered a liberal approach to organizing and governing a society.  I truly doubt our founders would not be supportive of tweaking their model over the decades and centuries to address changing times and circumstances as they very much thought "outside the box."  This is further evidenced by the flexibilities they embedded in our governing processes.  And, while it's clear they didn't all see eye to eye on how to go forward, they, in the end, melded their differing points of view, collectively, mostly "liberal" (concessions to slave holders being a notable exception) in their day, into a single constitution via compromise.  Again, they left the door open for society to fix those things that didn't exactly stand the test of time.  [To me, this is why the strict constructionist/originalist approach of some of our Supreme Court justices is off the mark.  In fairness, it is true, Congress (like our State legislature) fails to bite on the toughest issues leaving the door open for courts to tackle them.  This isn't right and often the courts call out the legislative functions for it.  But, when the courts don't and, instead, step in to make a tough decision, the legislatures still have the ability to reverse the courts with new legislation.  This, they should do, if they are truly not happy with a court "legislating" but it seems many times they just want to scapegoat the courts rather than execute properly their own responsibilities.]

Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 23, 2021, 11:26:10 PM
^Thank you for a very thoughtful post. In most aspects, I agree. It's unfortunate to me that "conservatism" has become synonymous with dictating what people do in their own homes. To me, "conservatism" is adhering to the founding values of our country and making limited changes only as a matter of necessity. I think our founders painted clear lines, identifying specific values that were non-negotiable regardless of changing times (the Constitution + enumerated rights, including those reserved to the states) and leaving everything else open to the very interpretation and evolution you allude to. Obviously, the amendment process provided for changes to the non-negotiable by virtue of supermajority support. To me, conservatism in this country is adhering to that philosophy. You are 100% correct that our founders based this country on liberalism, and our tradition is liberal in the sense that we define ourselves by our freedom. I view myself as conservative because I subscribe to those traditional governmental ideals: freedom to express my opinion, defend myself, earn a living, and live my life free of interference from others so long as I refrain from interfering with them.

I do agree that universities are bound to float liberal when left to their own devices. I'm fine with that, and that's why the DeSantis measures are unacceptable. But there have been examples of one-sided censorship against the minority right-leaning voices on campuses  nationwide that primed the pump for this political play here in Florida. Censorship in all forms should be abhorred in academia; when it is allowed to pass on one side of the aisle, we shouldn't be shocked to see similar evils perpetrated in retaliation.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 24, 2021, 02:47:56 AM
I went to UF and ended up graduating from UNF (in 1995). So I appreciate that it has been a *number* of years - but in my experience, I never had a professor 'indoctrinate' me (or attempt to). I had a professor at UF who taught a course on the history of Christianity by talking about liberation theology and how he used to march with Martin Luther King. But he never tried to tell any of us how to think. I had a couple of very conservative professors at UNF (poly sci and history) and although they were opinionated, they didn't seem like they were trying to change minds.

It's weird how conservatives are so worked up over 'liberal' bias or 'indoctrination' in universities but not fussed at all about right wing bias and indoctrination in the military.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 24, 2021, 06:31:16 AM
No need to read further than Desatan and duhsantis... name calling is pathetic and clearly comes from a position of weakness...

Please continue...  :)

Sorry, not sorry.

The man is dangerous and is destroying a country many gave their lives to create. I am not going to treat a tyrant with respect.   

Vicks response is expected... glad to see civil discussion. I knew you kids could do it...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 24, 2021, 06:43:39 AM
It's a survey...  Sooooo.... you don't want students and faculty to anonymously answer questions about their freedom to teach and express viewpoints????  I certainly do not see any Chinese or soviet style enforcement ...except maybe by you guys who do not want students and faculty to anonymously answer to what may or may not be happening on campus.  Just who is silencing who...?

Quote
The bill says the annual surveys would assess "intellectual freedom and viewpoint diversity" and determine "the extent to which competing ideas and perspectives are presented" and whether students, professors, and staffers "feel free to express their beliefs and viewpoints on campus and in the classroom."
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 24, 2021, 06:56:41 AM
Here is some actual survey data from Britain and the US... perhaps this is what gave DeSantis the idea...

https://cspicenter.org/reports/academicfreedom/#
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 24, 2021, 09:11:02 AM


Man o man, crazy stuff.  This is the sort of slippery slope that leads to bad things.  Next thing we know the Feds are going to passing legislation mandating you answer questions about your race, relationships and religion.    Hell, they may even get extra crazy and make it illegal to not answer and make it illegal to lie!


dios mio.   we're doooooooooooooooooooomed.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on June 24, 2021, 09:27:58 AM
Pretty sure he won in a landslide of historic proportions.........................
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 24, 2021, 09:29:02 AM
Here's a longer quote from the linked article
Quote
DeSantis, a potential 2024 presidential contender who's closely aligned with former President Donald Trump, threatened to cut funding from state universities that he determines don't promote "intellectual diversity."

During a press conference at a middle school in Fort Myers, the governor said campuses that are "hotbeds for stale ideology" were "not worth tax dollars, and that's not something that we're going to be supporting going forward."

The bill says the annual surveys would assess "intellectual freedom and viewpoint diversity" and determine "the extent to which competing ideas and perspectives are presented" and whether students, professors, and staffers "feel free to express their beliefs and viewpoints on campus and in the classroom."

The law, effective July 1, demands that students "be shown diverse ideas and opinions, including those that they may disagree with or find uncomfortable," the state's Department of Education said.

Yes, it appears to be an anonymous survey, so the DOE won't know if Professor X is "indoctrinating students." But, the statements made by the Governor when signing the law change this from a benign survey of faculty and students to a tool to punish schools that do not adhere to his worldview - campuses that are "hotbeds for stale ideology" were "not worth tax dollars, and that's not something that we're going to be supporting going forward."

Will the Legislature and DOE actually abide by the intent of the law, that students "be shown diverse ideas and opinions, including those that they may disagree with or find uncomfortable,"? Will campuses or departments that the survey says are indoctrinating students with right-wing ideologies face funding reductions or other sanctions?
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 24, 2021, 09:41:40 AM
Hmm… if tax dollars fund public universities and tax dollars come from the general public perhaps they should have a small amount of input regarding what is taught?

Just askin…
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on June 24, 2021, 10:21:46 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/desantis-signs-bill-requiring-florida-students-professors-to-register-political-views-with-state/ar-AALn30q?ocid=mailsignout&li=BBnbfcL


DeSantis more like Trump every day....gonna do whatever he wants until somebody sues to stop him.   


From article:
""It used to be thought that a university campus was a place where you'd be exposed to a lot of different ideas," DeSantis said at a press conference following the bill signing. "Unfortunately, now the norm is, these are more intellectually repressive environments. You have orthodoxies that are promoted, and other viewpoints are shunned or even suppressed."   

How would he know, he spends no time in classrooms.



"Republicans have long held that universities promote left-wing ideologies and discriminate against conservative students and staff."

They also believe the 2020 election was stolen, and the Jan 6 storming of the Capitol was fun and games. It's a political party looking for answers to questions that don't exist.

Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 24, 2021, 11:13:09 AM
Here's a longer quote from the linked article
Quote
DeSantis, a potential 2024 presidential contender who's closely aligned with former President Donald Trump, threatened to cut funding from state universities that he determines don't promote "intellectual diversity."

During a press conference at a middle school in Fort Myers, the governor said campuses that are "hotbeds for stale ideology" were "not worth tax dollars, and that's not something that we're going to be supporting going forward."

The bill says the annual surveys would assess "intellectual freedom and viewpoint diversity" and determine "the extent to which competing ideas and perspectives are presented" and whether students, professors, and staffers "feel free to express their beliefs and viewpoints on campus and in the classroom."

The law, effective July 1, demands that students "be shown diverse ideas and opinions, including those that they may disagree with or find uncomfortable," the state's Department of Education said.

Yes, it appears to be an anonymous survey, so the DOE won't know if Professor X is "indoctrinating students." But, the statements made by the Governor when signing the law change this from a benign survey of faculty and students to a tool to punish schools that do not adhere to his worldview - campuses that are "hotbeds for stale ideology" were "not worth tax dollars, and that's not something that we're going to be supporting going forward."

Will the Legislature and DOE actually abide by the intent of the law, that students "be shown diverse ideas and opinions, including those that they may disagree with or find uncomfortable,"? Will campuses or departments that the survey says are indoctrinating students with right-wing ideologies face funding reductions or other sanctions?

Capitalism is the stalest ideology of them all - that's the irony of this. Not saying any of the lefty crap peddled by university students and many professors isn't stale as well, of course.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Snaketoz on June 24, 2021, 11:13:47 AM
Evidently, science and the truth are left-leaning.  DeSantis wants us to go back to the Geocentric theory, believe media entertainers over scientists, Covid 19 is fake, (when it's advantageous to their agenda), and any sensible, compromise on any subject is Socialist.  He is Hell-bent on pushing his Trump like policies down our throats.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: simms3 on June 24, 2021, 11:36:34 AM
Reading these posts is alarming.  Hopefully y'all are the loud minority, and our politicians are truly representing the majority of the people when they sign these measures into law.

My generation HATES America for some reason and I know many who are signed on with Marxist and socialist ideology.  Many of these people come from standard middle/upper middle backgrounds, so I'm not sure what their gripes are except I believe they have been indoctrinated over time by our government schools (and plenty of private universities as well) to have these beliefs.  I was indoctrinated by the left for years and alienated from my own family.  I can speak from real experience.

Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

Now we are at the point where people believe they are a "victim" of this country.  A "victim" of DeSantis, even.  Truly sad to see all of this unfold before our eyes.  A bunch of loud weirdos feigning outrage at everything and working in conjunction with a historically leftist media to cultivate all of these dangerous narratives and enact change based on them.

Red-blooded freedom-loving Americans who love their country, who are relatives of family members who died for this country and the principles we were founded on will eventually say enough is enough!  I hope the backlash is only a political one in 2022 and 2024 and at our local school boards and local governments.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Chuckabear on June 24, 2021, 12:42:30 PM
Reading these posts is alarming.  Hopefully y'all are the loud minority, and our politicians are truly representing the majority of the people when they sign these measures into law.

My generation HATES America for some reason and I know many who are signed on with Marxist and socialist ideology.  Many of these people come from standard middle/upper middle backgrounds, so I'm not sure what their gripes are except I believe they have been indoctrinated over time by our government schools (and plenty of private universities as well) to have these beliefs.  I was indoctrinated by the left for years and alienated from my own family.  I can speak from real experience.

Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

Now we are at the point where people believe they are a "victim" of this country.  A "victim" of DeSantis, even.  Truly sad to see all of this unfold before our eyes.  A bunch of loud weirdos feigning outrage at everything and working in conjunction with a historically leftist media to cultivate all of these dangerous narratives and enact change based on them.

Red-blooded freedom-loving Americans who love their country, who are relatives of family members who died for this country and the principles we were founded on will eventually say enough is enough!  I hope the backlash is only a political one in 2022 and 2024 and at our local school boards and local governments.

I served in the US Navy for 21 years and am a Marxist. Do you even know what Marxism and Critical Race Theory is. Is applying Immanent Critique such a bad thing while trying to understand the inherent contradictions of our system.

To me exploring outside the norms of the illusion of the USA is more patriotic than waving the flag and saying we are the best. All Desantis and his ilk are doing are perpetuating the lie.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 24, 2021, 01:36:24 PM
Reading these posts is alarming.  Hopefully y'all are the loud minority, and our politicians are truly representing the majority of the people when they sign these measures into law.

My generation HATES America for some reason and I know many who are signed on with Marxist and socialist ideology.  Many of these people come from standard middle/upper middle backgrounds, so I'm not sure what their gripes are except I believe they have been indoctrinated over time by our government schools (and plenty of private universities as well) to have these beliefs.  I was indoctrinated by the left for years and alienated from my own family.  I can speak from real experience.

Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

Now we are at the point where people believe they are a "victim" of this country.  A "victim" of DeSantis, even.  Truly sad to see all of this unfold before our eyes.  A bunch of loud weirdos feigning outrage at everything and working in conjunction with a historically leftist media to cultivate all of these dangerous narratives and enact change based on them.

Red-blooded freedom-loving Americans who love their country, who are relatives of family members who died for this country and the principles we were founded on will eventually say enough is enough!  I hope the backlash is only a political one in 2022 and 2024 and at our local school boards and local governments.

I don't know of any society or country that is so perfect that they can't work to do better, our country included.  Not everyone in our country has benefited on an equal basis.  Aside from slavery and discrimination in our history, today we live in a time when the income/wealth gap has never been greater.  It is an historical fact that societies with greater imbalances will suffer more turmoil as the more populated underclasses will, at some point, resist the systems that hold them down.  To some degree, Simms, this is, in my opinion, part of what you are witnessing.  I also note that today's "middle class" is among those who have joined the ranks of falling behind and today's younger generations may be the first in modern times to economically achieve less than their ancestors.

These circumstances are being accentuated by the polices of conservatives who have advocated for reduced social safety nets and tax policies that further extend the wealth and income gaps.  Are "liberal" solutions perfect? No.  But, such discussions need to take place to insure that we defuse the situation before it truly explodes.  Suppressing liberal approaches, numerically, offends far more people than conservative solutions that mainly favor the 1% or so.  This is why you are witnessing much of what you enumerate in your post.

Regarding "victimization," this claim is not limited to those you have in mind.  White males and conservative Christians have made the same claims in advocating for the policies that Trump, DeSantis and their ilk have been putting forward.

I particularly take offense that you believe that American's who critique our country are somehow less patriotic than those who accept the status quo.  I would suggest the opposite... That those who critique care more about our country and its future in that they are willing to risk and invest much to try and make it better for all of us, not just special interests.

To be clear, I believe in the capitalist system but also recognize that it often plays favorites and has been subjected to manipulation to the advantage of some and the disadvantage of many (i.e. not everyone is getting a fair and equal shake to play the "game").  I also recognize that a rising tide raises all boats and that there will always be a segment of the population that is less blessed with the skills, experience, aptitude, education, health or accidents of life to navigate such a system and that we will, thus, always have to maintain some type of safety net for those less blessed.

Lastly, I would pose a question to you that a reporter recently posed to Vladimir Putin regarding his efforts to suppress dissent:  "What are you so afraid of?" if you are so secure in the belief that maintaining the status quo is providing equal opportunity to everyone.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: itsfantastic1 on June 24, 2021, 02:31:34 PM
Guys, I'm starting to think a guy who won his governor election with a plurality (not majority) by a margin of 0.4% may not be concerned with passing policies than help all Floridians but rather catapult him into the Fox News spotlight for his rise as the next MAGA savior.

However, these types of policies are also the brainchild of a state legislature that for the last decade or two has been slowly eroding home rule and expanding the state's power over local government, so don't let them off the hook as well.

Whether these laws are upheld or overturned in court doesn't matter to him. It's just for the headlines it generates. The irony of conservatives advocating for more government involvement is just icing on this cake.

I also wonder Simms if you feel the same way about Florida "truly representing the majority" with its constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage in 2008, which was overturned by the courts as unconstitutional. Seems to me back then, Florida was pretty clear on its majority opinion which would've denied you the right to marry a partner.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 24, 2021, 02:36:21 PM
Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

It's clear you've never studied Marx. All that stuff you mentioned has nothing to do with Marx and is not found in his writings.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Chuckabear on June 24, 2021, 02:51:51 PM
Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

It's clear you've never studied Marx. All that stuff you mentioned has nothing to do with Marx and is not found in his writings.

Most people only equate the Manifesto to Marx (written when he was 30 and is nothing more than a proletarian cheerleading essay) versus his more complete works and critiques written 20 years or more later (Das Kapital and Critique of the Gotha Program)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 24, 2021, 02:57:29 PM
Families are truly pitted against each other, and it's sad.  The left has done a great job of taking fathers out of homes, and now for the remaining intact families it has done a great job at pitting the children against the parents by somehow creating a victim narrative for everyone, and for those somehow left out of all the possible "intersectional" narratives out there, it has encouraged "allyship" with any and all of the supposed "victims" out there.  Truly amazing how many Marxist things are going on in this country right now.

It's clear you've never studied Marx. All that stuff you mentioned has nothing to do with Marx and is not found in his writings.

Most people only equate the Manifesto to Marx (written when he was 30 and is nothing more than a proletarian cheerleading essay) versus his more complete works and critiques written 20 years or more later (Das Kapital and Critique of the Gotha Program)

Yes. And most people who accuse things of being 'Marxist' are people who have never read Marx and just use it as a catch-all for anything they view as being 'un-American' or somehow reprehensible. And of course, there are those who equate Lenin, Stalin, Mao, etc with Karl Marx.

Just because some self-described "Marxist" says something stupid doesn't make that utterance "Marxist" in the same way Jeffrey Dahmer didn't make cannibalism a defining characteristic of homosexuality.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on June 24, 2021, 03:02:37 PM
The more of the article you read the more you realize how dim the leadership of the Republican party is:

"In a conversation with the Miami Herald this April, Barney Bishop, one of the top lobbyists pushing the bill in Florida's state legislature over the past year, shone a light on the justifications behind such measures — which he said were less about "intellectual diversity" and more concerned with maintaining the country's conservative Christian identity in the face of younger, more diverse generations that share a dimmer view of religious right-wing orthodoxy."

He continued: "I think the problem isn't just in higher ed. The truth of the matter is that kids are being indoctrinated from an early age," he said." 

What does he think 'conservative Christian identity' is?

And then; ""I think that those of us who have diverse thinking and look at both sides of the issue, see that the way the cards are stacked in the education system, is toward the left and toward the liberal ideology and also secularism — and those were not the values that our country was founded on. Those are the values that we need to get our country back to."

No one, anywhere, is describing this guy as a diverse thinker.  Literally every thing he says in that paragraph is wrong, based on his opinion, or nothing at all. 

The basic purpose of DeSantis regime is to intimidate Democrats and to 'own the libs.'  Doing the job of looking out for all the citizens of Florida is nowhere to be found.

Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 24, 2021, 03:20:53 PM
I'll be honest - I think ensuring that people feel free to discuss their opinions on university campuses is a good thing. I also think no student should have to worry about being penalised by a professor for holding contrary views is a good thing. But I can't help but wonder if a lot of this is a bit of a moral panic - it's probably nowhere near as bad as advertised. It has turned into one of these big issues that the right likes to carry on about. A bogeyman of sorts.

That's not to say that there can be problems -the survey seems to indicate that there may be. But the survey also seems to deal a lot with people's impressions or feelings - it seemed more anecdotal than based on reports, etc.

Another thing to keep in mind is what is - or should be - protected speech. I am sure people have different ideas about this, but I see a difference between voicing a conservative political opinion and hate speech. And it seems (to me) that a lot of the loudest voices complaining are the people who stir up hatred against others. People like Katie Hopkins, for example.

I am not sure I agree with deplatforming or noplatforming or whatever it's called in all cases - again, I think barring people who are spreading hate is one thing, but that logic is sometimes used to bar people who hold contentious views. I mean, if you're stupid enough to want to spend money to hear Jordan "B" Peterson speak, that's on you. As gross as I think he is, I don't put him in the same league as Hopkins or David Irving or whoever.

But I don't entirely understand why people are so focused on universities. Let's pretend all the criticism is valid - why no outrage for the state of the US military? Talk about a taxpayer-funded institution that lack significant diversity of political opinion! We can't have one rule for universities and another rule for the army or even the police.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Tacachale on June 24, 2021, 05:05:11 PM
I've worked at UNF for 12 years and received two degrees from them. While it's certainly true that most professors are left wing, the idea that universities are leading to real or attempted indoctrination of students simply doesn't match my experience.

It's certainly true -- demonstrably, inarguably true -- that most professors are left. There have been many studies of that over the years. There's even a book length sociological work on the topic, Professors and their Politics (https://jhupbooks.press.jhu.edu/title/professors-and-their-politics) by Solon Simmons and Neil Gross from 2014. At that time, they reported that 62% of professors self-identified as left or liberal, while only 18% said they were middle-of-the-road and 19% said they were conservative. I expect the imbalance may be even more pronounced in the age of Trump.

That said, the book's findings have hewed closely to my experience. It's just not true that many professors are trying to "indoctrinate" anyone or shut down opposing beliefs or viewpoints. And even if they were, it isn't effective: research shows that not only is it rare for students to radically change their views during college, most students actually broaden their views and become more tolerant of diverse viewpoints. A more recent study summarized by Inside Higher Ed]https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/05/research-suggests-colleges-broaden-students-political-views]Inside Higher Ed (https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/05/research-suggests-colleges-broaden-students-political-views) said:

Quote
The research finds that, after one year in college, many students view both liberals and conservatives more favorably than when they arrived on campus (and by about the same margins). The researchers suggest that this shows that college -- or at least the freshman year -- isn't a time when students are indoctrinated, but is actually a time when they meet people with different views and come to respect them (regardless of whether they end up changing their own views).

What's more, what professors are teaching students has less of an effect on them than interaction with other students with a variety of beliefs and backgrounds.

There are effects of the liberal bias. For instance, it tends to be self-selecting, where people who already agree politically with the professors are more likely to pursue an academic career than moderates or conservatives. There's also the issue that some beliefs with limited support or appeal in the wider world become commonplace in the academic world. And of course some small number of professors are just fools who really do want to force everyone to think like them. But they're relatively few and far between.

As a staff member, I've never seen the university try to silence anybody except due to noise complaints, disruption or direct threats of violence. We hosted a 2012 Republican debate and the protests for that. We hosted Barack Obama and the protests for him. Hell, the University of Florida allowed Richard Spencer to speak, and he's a honest to God Nazi.

All this is to say, DeSantis's law would only show something we already know (professors are mostly left) in the interest of fixing an ostensible problem (indoctrination) that simply isn't what he says it is. Unfortunately, it's a pattern with him. At this point it's hard to expect any better.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 24, 2021, 05:30:08 PM
I was just thinking about other institutions that "indoctrinate" people:  Military, political parties, religions, parents, special interest organizations (e.g. the NRA), cults, special interest web and social media sites, certain cable channels, advertisers and marketers for businesses, foreign governments, etc. 

We live in world where everyone wants to convince us to come to their way of thinking or behavior mostly.  This makes the DeSantis "rule" a slippery slope with no end.  I would argue that even if they lean liberal, universities are less likely to "indoctrinate" someone than some of the examples cited above.  I don't see DeSantis and friends worried about those.

The way to resist indoctrination is to take in as many sources of information as possible, not to control those sources.  This responsibility ultimately falls on the individual (isn't that consistent with conservative principals?), not government or others.  With the internet today, it's especially easy to canvas the widest range of views on any given issue.  No thinking and inquisitive student today is limited to inputs only from a professor making it nearly impossible for such professor to indoctrinate a student.

DeSantis is just politically grandstanding, and dangerously so, in trying to become the thought police.  He is worried that his "thoughts" are not gaining traction with those he wishes to "indoctrinate" so he is making up "rules" to "advantage" him.  Dictators do this relatively well.  Need I say more.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 24, 2021, 06:15:32 PM
You guys crack me up... apparently we all have our own "pearls to clutch".  It's a fuking survey... A SURVEY. 
We use surveys all the time... local government... state government... federal government... even the goddamn high schools use surveys to see who is doing... or saying what.

Surveys are good... especially anonymous surveys... the only thing sinister here is in your own addled minds.

BTW... DeSantis signed legislation today requiring high school students be taught CPR and EKGs required for athletic sports. Talk about evil... sheesh... ::)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 24, 2021, 06:43:14 PM
Had Desantis not framed his signing of the bill with a threat to the funding of campuses where there are "hotbeds for slate ideology" - I don't think there would be so much "pearl clutching" going on.

Quote
During a press conference at a middle school in Fort Myers, the governor said campuses that are "hotbeds for stale ideology" were "not worth tax dollars, and that's not something that we're going to be supporting going forward."
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 24, 2021, 06:59:11 PM
You guys crack me up... apparently we all have our own "pearls to clutch".  It's a fuking survey... A SURVEY. 
We use surveys all the time... local government... state government... federal government... even the goddamn high schools use surveys to see who is doing... or saying what.

Surveys are good... especially anonymous surveys... the only thing sinister here is in your own addled minds.

BTW... DeSantis signed legislation today requiring high school students be taught CPR and EKGs required for athletic sports. Talk about evil... sheesh... ::)

Taking this type of survey is a total waste of time and taxpayer dollars.  It will be subject to much interpretation, trepidation in answering honestly, lack of accountability regarding the truthfulness of answers and no good outcome as a result of the surveys, regardless of what they might import to the evaluators.  And, how will they assure statistically valid responses?  Will Republicans argue that it's a "fake election" if they don't see the results they want?  Will they audit each and every "ballot"?  Demand "voter ID's"?  Refuse "mail in" surveys or use of drop boxes?  Surely, we don't want anyone "stuffing" the survey box, do we?

Overall, what is the process for anything productive being accomplished by all this silliness?  Just another example of Florida being the laughing stock of the world.

As I said once before, the biggest outcome is likely to be highly negative:  The loss of, or inability to attract, highly qualified professors at Florida state universities who refuse to subject to this "thought police" tactic as a matter of academic freedom and principles.  The best ones will have no problem finding employment elsewhere and we Floridians and our children (if they don't decide to go out of state to get a "quality" education no longer available in Florida) will be the ultimate losers.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: itsfantastic1 on June 24, 2021, 08:45:59 PM
(https://i.imgflip.com/5egb5j.jpg)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 24, 2021, 11:03:05 PM
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 06:17:50 AM
You guys crack me up... apparently we all have our own "pearls to clutch".  It's a fuking survey... A SURVEY. 
We use surveys all the time... local government... state government... federal government... even the goddamn high schools use surveys to see who is doing... or saying what.

Surveys are good... especially anonymous surveys... the only thing sinister here is in your own addled minds.

BTW... DeSantis signed legislation today requiring high school students be taught CPR and EKGs required for athletic sports. Talk about evil... sheesh... ::)

Taking this type of survey is a total waste of time and taxpayer dollars.  It will be subject to much interpretation, trepidation in answering honestly, lack of accountability regarding the truthfulness of answers and no good outcome as a result of the surveys, regardless of what they might import to the evaluators.  And, how will they assure statistically valid responses?  Will Republicans argue that it's a "fake election" if they don't see the results they want?  Will they audit each and every "ballot"?  Demand "voter ID's"?  Refuse "mail in" surveys or use of drop boxes?  Surely, we don't want anyone "stuffing" the survey box, do we?

Overall, what is the process for anything productive being accomplished by all this silliness?  Just another example of Florida being the laughing stock of the world.

As I said once before, the biggest outcome is likely to be highly negative:  The loss of, or inability to attract, highly qualified professors at Florida state universities who refuse to subject to this "thought police" tactic as a matter of academic freedom and principles.  The best ones will have no problem finding employment elsewhere and we Floridians and our children (if they don't decide to go out of state to get a "quality" education no longer available in Florida) will be the ultimate losers.

Complete speculation and "what if ism"...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 06:22:56 AM
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 25, 2021, 06:38:29 AM
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....

Does that make it any better? Tu quoque.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 07:01:31 AM
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....

Does that make it any better? Tu quoque.

No... it doesn't. It shows our leadership are monkeys...

The focus of the discussion so far has been on students being "indoctrinated "... let's look for a moment at professors being intimidated or silenced...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/academics-are-really-really-worried-about-their-freedom/615724/
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 07:13:10 AM
Here is an article by.     With a very long list of canceled or fired professors and the circumstances that contributed to their removal...

https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/tracking-cancel-culture-in-higher-education
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 25, 2021, 08:07:09 AM
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....

Does that make it any better? Tu quoque.

No... it doesn't. It shows our leadership are monkeys...

The focus of the discussion so far has been on students being "indoctrinated "... let's look for a moment at professors being intimidated or silenced...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/academics-are-really-really-worried-about-their-freedom/615724/

That's not my point. To dismiss criticism because "the other guys does it" is fallacious. And that's what you did there. You can talk about professors being intimidated or silenced now, but your specific response to JaxNole's post was to basically say, "the Democrats do it, too".

Maybe they do. Doesn't make it right. As a libertarian (not a "Libertarian" btw), I don't really like coercion of any sort. And I don't like the slippery slope we appear to be heading down with this sort of legislation. But that's just me. A lot of people seem quite content to use big government to enforce conformity or whatever. Unless it's protecting voting rights or employment rights (for example) - then it's bad, of course. But anything to own the libtards is a good thing.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 25, 2021, 09:22:38 AM
Conservatives have made the grave error of turning to government coercion to defend against what they view as an all-out assault on their cultural values. The problem with that is that it cedes power to a government that won't always be aligned with their political persuasions. Ceding power to government always erodes freedom, and if you allow it to happen in furtherance of your ideology today, don't be surprised when it's used against you in the future.

Culture is a ground-up, organic feature of a society. I personally think that the waning prevalence of religious values, two-parent households and belief in American exceptionalism is a shame, but government intervention to reinforce those values would be totally inappropriate.

If you want be free, you can't look to government as a solution for your problems. Conservatives used to understand that. Now, we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

Seriously? Jaxnole... just as an experiment (I already did it) substitute the word liberal for conservative... democrat for republican... and read it again please.

What you should find is apparently republicans are following the democrats playbook... monkey see... monkey do....

Thanks for reinforcing my point. Republicans used to differentiate themselves from Democrats by marketing themselves as the party of small(er) government. By adopting the "Democrat playbook",

Quote
we are stuck picking between Democrat and Republican variations on big-government candidates.

You don't fight big government with more government, or indoctrination with more indoctrination.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 11:46:38 AM
It’s why I am no longer a registered republican. That party went down the rat hole when they nominated trump. Democrats offer me nothing either so I’m officially an Independent. Soooo… while you guys take issue with my “both parties do it “ argument… I don’t because it’s the truth. My position regarding the survey program remains the same.  Surveys are good and the folks protesting the legislation probably are afraid of what the responses will be…
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 11:50:22 AM
Getting back to the issue… are you ok with canceling or silencing professors or students who are not conforming to the popular group speak?  Sounds like many of you are…
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 25, 2021, 12:01:49 PM
Getting back to the issue… are you ok with canceling or silencing professors or students who are not conforming to the popular group speak?  Sounds like many of you are…

Not sure what happened to my other reply - seems like maybe it was deleted. Anyway, to answer your question, see Reply #33.

https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36981.msg512665.html#msg512665 (https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36981.msg512665.html#msg512665)


Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 25, 2021, 12:08:40 PM
Getting back to the issue… are you ok with canceling or silencing professors or students who are not conforming to the popular group speak?  Sounds like many of you are…

Don't think I've said that. But, no I am not OK with silencing those "who are not conforming to the popular group speak." I am also not OK with professors espousing fiction as fact - for example, that systemic racism is not a part of American history (and the present). 

I am also not OK with the government (and specifically the Governor) threatening funding if the results of these surveys are not to their liking.  Are you?
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on June 25, 2021, 12:28:46 PM
Bridge Troll.....try reading the damn article.   When pressed for specifics the Gov had none, just some parents that were upset....
This is the party of Trump......the guy who paid $25 million to settle a class action lawsuit brought by his own customers for God's sake.

This was not brought forth because professors were complaining...it's just more Republican bullshit..... like all the other new laws D Santis is creating..... there is no issue but lets make one! 

Please provide a list of all the professors whose voices are being cancelled. PLEASE! 

Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 12:33:11 PM
Bridge Troll.....try reading the damn article.   When pressed for specifics the Gov had none, just some parents that were upset....
This is the party of Trump......the guy who paid $25 million to settle a class action lawsuit brought by his own customers for God's sake.

This was not brought forth because professors were complaining...it's just more Republican bullshit..... like all the other new laws D Santis is creating..... there is no issue but lets make one! 

Please provide a list of all the professors whose voices are being cancelled. PLEASE! 



I did… I also provided two articles that YOU CLEARLY DIDNT READ.

New laws like the cpr legislation he just signed?
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on June 25, 2021, 12:38:00 PM
From your article:

"Academic administrators, students, and even professors risk “cancellation” when expressing viewpoints deemed unacceptable by the progressive ideologues ruling our colleges and universities. "

Glad it's so even handed.............what a joke. Actually, it's what passes for ___________  in your universe, but it worthless political hackism at best.

Why not just link to Hannity or his cohorts. 
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 25, 2021, 12:40:13 PM
From your srticle:

"Academic administrators, students, and even professors risk “cancellation” when expressing viewpoints deemed unacceptable by the progressive ideologues ruling our colleges and universities. "

Glad it's so even handed.............what a joke.

I guess the joke is on the professors fired…
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Tacachale on June 25, 2021, 07:29:14 PM
^Again, I work at a university, and the perceived threat just doesn't match up to anything I've seen or read about. We already know most professors are liberal. And some are bad, for this or other reasons. But the vast majority of professors I know, have worked with, or met fully believe it's unethical to try and insert their own political beliefs into the classroom. And the studies are showing that if anyone's doing it, it's not effective, as students aren't experiencing radical changes in their beliefs -- and are in fact more likely to come out more respectful of others' beliefs.

I certainly don't approve of professors getting fired or punished for saying the wrong thing. It's the other side to the coin the governor is dealing right now. On the other hand I've never personally seen it happen. Looking through the first several entries from your link (https://www.nas.org/blogs/article/tracking-cancel-culture-in-higher-education), it shows few were fired or punished. In multiple cases, the universities released statements defending the professors' rights to free speech despite disapproving of what they said, and in one case, they gave him a diversity award. At any rate I don't see this as enough of a problem to require government action, and more than I see the need for DeSantis's political surveys.

EDIT: I do want to reiterate that in the two cases I read where the professors were fired or pushed out, it was bullshit. Shouldn't have happened and academics should be outraged. Though it should be said that government action wouldn't have affected them, as they happened at a private university and at the journal of a private medical association.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on June 25, 2021, 08:06:36 PM
Thanks for that.  I too served on several faculties including UNF. the vast majority of professors are doing their jobs the best they can.

Pretty sure Bridge Troll is a former Professor Emeritus at Trump University.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Tacachale on June 25, 2021, 09:54:00 PM
Thanks for that.  I too served on several faculties including UNF. the vast majority of professors are doing their jobs the best they can.

Pretty sure Bridge Troll is a former Professor Emeritus at Trump University.

He most certainly is not. He's a good guy and not that it matters, but he's made it clear here and elsewhere that he's not a Trump supporter.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 26, 2021, 12:55:33 AM
Thanks for that.  I too served on several faculties including UNF. the vast majority of professors are doing their jobs the best they can.

Pretty sure Bridge Troll is a former Professor Emeritus at Trump University.

He most certainly is not. He's a good guy and not that it matters, but he's made it clear here and elsewhere that he's not a Trump supporter.

I'd have a beer with him, or any of you  8). I think Bridge and I likely agree on most positions and simply differ on how to approach solutions. Couldn't ask for a better discussion. It's sorely needed in this country.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on June 26, 2021, 03:51:58 AM
Thanks for that.  I too served on several faculties including UNF. the vast majority of professors are doing their jobs the best they can.

Pretty sure Bridge Troll is a former Professor Emeritus at Trump University.

He most certainly is not. He's a good guy and not that it matters, but he's made it clear here and elsewhere that he's not a Trump supporter.

I'd have a beer with him, or any of you  8). I think Bridge and I likely agree on most positions and simply differ on how to approach solutions. Couldn't ask for a better discussion. It's sorely needed in this country.

Yeah, we can all get a bit snarky and tone can be hard to read online. But I don't doubt most of the people on this forum would get along just fine in person.

And for the record, I'm not really an asshole, I just play one online.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 26, 2021, 07:25:42 AM
Thanks for that.  I too served on several faculties including UNF. the vast majority of professors are doing their jobs the best they can.

Pretty sure Bridge Troll is a former Professor Emeritus at Trump University.

He most certainly is not. He's a good guy and not that it matters, but he's made it clear here and elsewhere that he's not a Trump supporter.

I'd have a beer with him, or any of you  8). I think Bridge and I likely agree on most positions and simply differ on how to approach solutions. Couldn't ask for a better discussion. It's sorely needed in this country.

Lol... I  know I have had a beer with some of you... years ago in the former iteration of Metro Jax I would occasionally join the owners meetings with Lakelander, Lunican, Ock, Steve, and others.  I have been a Mod on this site for many years... discussing viewpoints in a civil manner is one of this sites best attributes. I frequent local watering holes and restaurants from Murray Hill, Springfield, San Marcos, and less frequently than the past... downtown.

In the past... I was career Navy, and career IT professional and cyber security specialist.  I once was a unapologetic middle of the road republican. That ended 5 or 6 years ago and I have been a man without political affiliation ever since.  To say that I am disgusted and disappointed with american politics is a gross understatement.

Civil discussion is good. No side has a monopoly on correct viewpoints and understanding the other side may help everyone later on...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: JeffreyS on June 27, 2021, 09:19:46 AM
It’s why I am no longer a registered republican. That party went down the rat hole when they nominated trump. Democrats offer me nothing either so I’m officially an Independent. Soooo… while you guys take issue with my “both parties do it “ argument… I don’t because it’s the truth. My position regarding the survey program remains the same.  Surveys are good and the folks protesting the legislation probably are afraid of what the responses will be…
I’m afraid of the funding threat Desantis made at the press announcement. That’s the part to me that said “you will be punished or rewarded based on what you think”. It sounded very much like thought police when he spoke. 
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 01, 2021, 12:04:59 AM
Another DeSantis "law" that was designed to control "thought" is failing in the courts.  He is truly wasting Florida taxpayers' money with all his outrageous and unconstitutional "laws" that one by one are likely to get struck down. 

He has tried to regulate, intimidate and/or limit free expression and/or flow of information in schools, colleges & universities, the media, protests and with State employees.  Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.  Wonder if DeSantis will set the record for most initiatives ruled unconstitutional.

Quote
Federal judge blocks Florida's social media law

A federal judge on Wednesday granted a preliminary injunction against Florida's new social media law, which conservatives had seized on as a way to combat perceived censorship by online platforms toward former President Donald Trump following the Jan. 6 Capitol riots.

Set to go into effect Thursday, the law, FL SB 7072, was a top priority of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis and would make it easier for the state's election commission to fine social media companies that banned political candidates in the run-up to an election, with penalties ranging from $25,000 to $250,000 a day.

The ruling: District Court Judge Robert Hinkle said that it was likely the plaintiffs — tech industry groups NetChoice and the Computer and Communications Industry Association, which count major platforms like Facebook, Twitter and Google among their members — would prevail in their claim that the law was unconstitutional due to the First Amendment. Legal experts had been quick to question the validity of the law when it was signed last month.

"The legislation now at issue was an effort to rein in social-media providers deemed too large and too liberal," Hinkle wrote in his opinion. "Balancing the exchange of ideas among private speakers is not a legitimate governmental interest."...

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/30/judge-block-florida-social-media-law-497442
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 01, 2021, 07:26:02 AM
Rofl... Goebbels... ::) ::) :o :o
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Peter Griffin on July 01, 2021, 09:10:19 AM
Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on July 01, 2021, 09:28:59 AM
Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal

(https://media.giphy.com/media/2YsdM5I7fsgHasVRL1/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 01, 2021, 09:34:47 AM
The last sentence says it all…

https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/05/12/poll-show-desantis-on-solid-ground-as-democrats-try-to-find-openings-1381609
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Peter Griffin on July 01, 2021, 09:41:14 AM
Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal

(https://media.giphy.com/media/2YsdM5I7fsgHasVRL1/giphy.gif)

Wow, it's like I'm really on Twitter! Snarky GIF replies and overwrought Nazi comparisons and all!
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on July 01, 2021, 09:46:03 AM
Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal

(https://media.giphy.com/media/2YsdM5I7fsgHasVRL1/giphy.gif)


Wow, it's like I'm really on Twitter! Snarky GIF replies and overwrought Nazi comparisons and all!

Sorry - not meant to be snarky! Your "get a grip, pal" comment reminded me of an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine. I guess you aren't a fan?
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Peter Griffin on July 01, 2021, 09:56:37 AM
Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal

(https://media.giphy.com/media/2YsdM5I7fsgHasVRL1/giphy.gif)


Wow, it's like I'm really on Twitter! Snarky GIF replies and overwrought Nazi comparisons and all!

Sorry - not meant to be snarky! Your "get a grip, pal" comment reminded me of an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine. I guess you aren't a fan?

No worries, I misinterpreted snark and sent it right back, my bad also.

I love Brooklyn Nine-Nine

I gotta go back and rewatch some now...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on July 01, 2021, 02:31:58 PM
Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal

(https://media.giphy.com/media/2YsdM5I7fsgHasVRL1/giphy.gif)


Wow, it's like I'm really on Twitter! Snarky GIF replies and overwrought Nazi comparisons and all!

Sorry - not meant to be snarky! Your "get a grip, pal" comment reminded me of an episode of Brooklyn Nine-Nine. I guess you aren't a fan?

No worries, I misinterpreted snark and sent it right back, my bad also.

I love Brooklyn Nine-Nine

I gotta go back and rewatch some now...

I am a huge fan. Looking forward to the final season. That 'eat a jerk, pal' bit is from the one with the hot crossword guy that Amy has a crush on (apparently played by her real-life husband).
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: vicupstate on July 01, 2021, 05:39:20 PM
Another DeSantis "law" that was designed to control "thought" is failing in the courts.  He is truly wasting Florida taxpayers' money with all his outrageous and unconstitutional "laws" that one by one are likely to get struck down. 

He has tried to regulate, intimidate and/or limit free expression and/or flow of information in schools, colleges & universities, the media, protests and with State employees.  Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.  Wonder if DeSantis will set the record for most initiatives ruled unconstitutional.

Quote
Federal judge blocks Florida's social media law

A federal judge on Wednesday granted a preliminary injunction against Florida's new social media law, which conservatives had seized on as a way to combat perceived censorship by online platforms toward former President Donald Trump following the Jan. 6 Capitol riots.

Set to go into effect Thursday, the law, FL SB 7072, was a top priority of Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis and would make it easier for the state's election commission to fine social media companies that banned political candidates in the run-up to an election, with penalties ranging from $25,000 to $250,000 a day.

The ruling: District Court Judge Robert Hinkle said that it was likely the plaintiffs — tech industry groups NetChoice and the Computer and Communications Industry Association, which count major platforms like Facebook, Twitter and Google among their members — would prevail in their claim that the law was unconstitutional due to the First Amendment. Legal experts had been quick to question the validity of the law when it was signed last month.

"The legislation now at issue was an effort to rein in social-media providers deemed too large and too liberal," Hinkle wrote in his opinion. "Balancing the exchange of ideas among private speakers is not a legitimate governmental interest."...

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/30/judge-block-florida-social-media-law-497442

Maybe there should be a 'clawback' on the salaries of officials (executive and legislative) that pass laws that get stuck down by the courts. After all it's not like they don't have lawyers that vet this stuff, and it does waste millions of dollars being litigated.  Money that could actually be spent on doing something good. They would have to decide it it is worth working without pay, to throw red meat to their supporters.   
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: vicupstate on July 01, 2021, 05:40:35 PM
Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal

This country is sliding in the direction of fascism and that should alarm all of us.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 01, 2021, 07:42:06 PM
Rofl... Goebbels... ::) ::) :o :o

Nazi propagandist, Joseph Goebbels, would be proud.

Get a grip, pal

My references were to Goebbels, the Nazi propagandist, not his other role as a Nazi leader that contributed to the regime's war effort and atrocities in other ways.

Below are some snippets regarding Goebbels propagandist role in the Nazi regime from a lengthy Wikipedia article (he was guilty of much worse crimes against humanity).

If you can't find some parallels to the actions of DeSantis, Trump and other select elected officials in our country today it only proves my position about how dangerous their actions are.  It's a slippery slope from today's defilement of the opposition and marginalized groups to the type of hell dictators of the past have brought their citizens. 

My point is we need to be forever vigilant and nip these type of actions in the bud.  Learn from our history as it can be repeated and it "can happen here."

Quote
After the Nazis came to power in 1933, Goebbels's Propaganda Ministry quickly gained and exerted control over the news media, arts, and information in Germany.

Goebbels adapted recent developments in commercial advertising to the political sphere, including the use of catchy slogans and subliminal cues.[60] His new ideas for poster design included using large type, red ink, and cryptic headers that encouraged the reader to examine the fine print to determine the meaning....

Like Hitler, Goebbels practised his public speaking skills in front of a mirror. Meetings were preceded by ceremonial marches and singing, and the venues were decorated with party banners. His entrance (almost always late) was timed for maximum emotional impact. Goebbels usually meticulously planned his speeches ahead of time, using pre-planned and choreographed inflection and gestures, but he was also able to improvise and adapt his presentation to make a good connection with his audience.[63][62] He used loudspeakers, decorative flames, uniforms, and marches to attract attention to speeches.[64]...

Goebbels' tactic of using provocation to bring attention to the Nazi Party, along with violence at the public party meetings and demonstrations, led the Berlin police to ban the Nazi Party from the city on 5 May 1927....

Goebbels wrote in his diary that the Nazis must gain power and exterminate Marxism....

Many of Goebbels' campaign posters used violent imagery such as a giant half-clad male destroying political opponents or other perceived enemies such as "International High Finance"....

The role of the new ministry, which set up its offices in the 18th-century Ordenspalais across from the Reich Chancellery, was to centralise Nazi control of all aspects of German cultural and intellectual life.[112] Goebbels hoped to increase popular support of the party from the 37 per cent achieved at the last free election held in Germany on 25 March 1933 to 100 per cent support. An unstated goal was to present to other nations the impression that the Nazi Party had the full and enthusiastic backing of the entire population....

Goebbels converted the 1 May holiday from a celebration of workers' rights (observed as such especially by the communists) into a day celebrating the Nazi Party....

The law required journalists to "regulate their work in accordance with National Socialism as a philosophy of life and as a conception of government."[126]...

The propaganda ministry was organised into seven departments: administration and legal; mass rallies, public health, youth, and race; radio; national and foreign press; films and film censorship; art, music, and theatre; and protection against counter-propaganda, both foreign and domestic....

Goebbels promoted the development of films with a Nazi slant, and ones that contained subliminal or overt propaganda messages....

As in the film industry, anyone wishing to pursue a career in these fields had to be a member of the corresponding chamber. In this way anyone whose views were contrary to the regime could be excluded from working in their chosen field and thus silenced....

A committee was established to censor books, and works could not be re-published unless they were on the list of approved works. Similar regulations applied to other fine arts and entertainment; even cabaret performances were censored.[137] Many German artists and intellectuals left Germany in the pre-war years rather than work under these restrictions.[....

Through technical devices like the radio and loudspeaker, 80 million people were deprived of independent thought."[142]...

A major focus of Nazi propaganda was Hitler himself, who was glorified as a heroic and infallible leader and became the focus of a cult of personality....

From May onwards, he orchestrated a campaign against Poland, fabricating stories about atrocities against ethnic Germans in Danzig and other cities....

Goebbels used his propaganda ministry and the Reich chambers to control access to information domestically....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels





Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 01, 2021, 08:33:31 PM
^based on the quoted text, you can draw parallels to likely most statewide and nationwide elected officials. Comparing DeSantis and Trump to Goebbels because they, for example, use provocation to bring attention to their party is all well and good--if you can acknowledge the practice is almost universal in politics and therefore, many of our officials are Goebbelsesque. "Controlling the narrative" is the linchpin of modern political strategy. I agree that should be nipped in the bud, but it needs to be culled from our political culture even when it's used to support a cause or candidate we favor, too.


The blocking of the social media law is not unexpected. But I would not say on this issue that DeSantis was addressing a non-existent problem. Instead, he inappropriately used government power to address an issue that can really only be tackled through competition. The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

NPR had a thoughtful piece on the topic. One can dislike the policy approach DeSantis took, but you can't say he was chasing shadows on a topic that's receiving attention from both sides of the aisle:

   https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/956486352/judge-refuses-to-reinstate-parler-after-amazon-shut-it-down    (https://www.npr.org/2021/01/21/956486352/judge-refuses-to-reinstate-parler-after-amazon-shut-it-down)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 01, 2021, 08:58:38 PM
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 01, 2021, 09:01:50 PM
Nate Monroe just featured DeSantis in his column posted today:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2021/07/01/surfside-president-biden-and-shadow-governor-florida-deserves/7830297002/
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: JeffreyS on July 01, 2021, 09:57:45 PM
The last sentence says it all…

https://www.politico.com/states/florida/story/2021/05/12/poll-show-desantis-on-solid-ground-as-democrats-try-to-find-openings-1381609
I will admit to some animosity, I mean he started his general election campaign with a dog whistle racist slur then, supported Trump, all he can say about Jan 6 is “unfortunate “, his attempt to squash the free speech rights of social media ( struck down for it’s obvious illegal attempt to cover propaganda) signing anti LGBT bills at the beginning of pride month to enhance the show and on and on with the mean spirited strong arming. Hell my whole complaint about this survey is about when he took the mic and made sure people knew it was a hammer to be afraid of ( which is why I ignore people
trying to lawyer speak about fine print and how it’s not as malicious as we think it is). Even if Dems do exaggerate I am surprised he’s the guy you want to go to bat for BT.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: icarus on July 01, 2021, 10:34:24 PM
Haven't really been following this thread because it looked like blatant political axe to grind garbage.  Looked at it tonight and it pretty much confirmed my instinct.

I generally choose not to read this garbage. I choose to listen to viewpoints on both sides of the aisle, even ones I dont agree with. But, if someone seeks to deprive anyone of their voice, their right to be heard, then I do have a problem. 

Does anyone believe De Santis has anywhere near the ability of social media to shape political discourse or to censor speech?  SMH

I miss the days when the ACLU fought for unpopular causes because of the one supreme truth ... if you give up your freedom to suppress your opponent then no one has freedom.  I for one am always going to fight for all of my civil rights and the civil rights of everyone .. friend or foe.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 02, 2021, 12:20:55 AM
Does anyone believe De Santis has anywhere near the ability of social media to shape political discourse or to censor speech?  SMH

Maybe.  He has nixed teaching of critical race theory, attempted to regulate university teaching, approved a law to intimidate protestors, attempted to control speech hosted by private tech companies, withheld and maybe manipulated critical info on COVID (which is roaring back due to the Delta variant and low vaccination rates in Jax and Florida), handpicked favorable reporters to cover some of his state sanctioned actions, voided a civics course his own party advocated for because it might promote a "preferred orthodoxy" (?!), created barriers to citizen initiated ballot initiatives, etc.  Let's not underestimate his intentions to do just what you ask.  And, yes, all politicians try to do these things, but not to the degree he has done.  He has set a new bar.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: itsfantastic1 on July 02, 2021, 02:15:04 AM
What people keep mixing up is the first amendment curbs the government's ability to restrict free speech, not private individuals or companies.

If you (user) come into my private house (Facebook, Twitter, MetroJax) and do something I as the owner dislike (break ToS), I have every right to kick you out of my house (ban). Frankly, I don't even need to have a reason to kick you out or even let you in.

I agree that some of these companies hold more sway than they should but the solution isn't to force them to open up for "all sides", but for users to stop relying on them as a sole source of information and leave the platform when it's outlived its purpose thereby reducing it's importance.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Adam White on July 02, 2021, 07:15:50 AM
What people keep mixing up is the first amendment curbs the government's ability to restrict free speech, not private individuals or companies.

If you (user) come into my private house (Facebook, Twitter, MetroJax) and do something I as the owner dislike (break ToS), I have every right to kick you out of my house (ban). Frankly, I don't even need to have a reason to kick you out or even let you in.

I agree that some of these companies hold more sway than they should but the solution isn't to force them to open up for "all sides", but for users to stop relying on them as a sole source of information and leave the platform when it's outlived its purpose thereby reducing it's importance.

You've said this before, but I don't think anyone is making that error. This whole thread is about limiting free speech (or appearing to limit free speech) on university campuses. Whether that is the case is a matter of opinion - not all agree that is what is happening. But if it is, it is clearly a first amendment issue.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 02, 2021, 07:51:33 AM
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.

Sounds like the slippery slope... perhaps this is what gun owners feel when new "small and reasonable " restrictions are placed on a right they are defending. I keep hearing about "common sense " restrictions but more and more keep coming...

Slippery slopes are slippery for everyone...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: JeffreyS on July 02, 2021, 09:47:50 AM
Maybe more and more are attempted after the prior attempts failed. To say more and more new gun laws have been passed and like they have been piling up on top of each other (or sliding)is dishonest.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: itsfantastic1 on July 02, 2021, 10:07:51 AM
What people keep mixing up is the first amendment curbs the government's ability to restrict free speech, not private individuals or companies.

If you (user) come into my private house (Facebook, Twitter, MetroJax) and do something I as the owner dislike (break ToS), I have every right to kick you out of my house (ban). Frankly, I don't even need to have a reason to kick you out or even let you in.

I agree that some of these companies hold more sway than they should but the solution isn't to force them to open up for "all sides", but for users to stop relying on them as a sole source of information and leave the platform when it's outlived its purpose thereby reducing it's importance.

You've said this before, but I don't think anyone is making that error. This whole thread is about limiting free speech (or appearing to limit free speech) on university campuses. Whether that is the case is a matter of opinion - not all agree that is what is happening. But if it is, it is clearly a first amendment issue.

Apologies, I thought someone above me (Icarus?) was commenting on the social media law that just had an injunction issued as was stating he agreed with the law as it were because it was protecting free speech.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Snaketoz on July 02, 2021, 11:04:11 AM
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.

Sounds like the slippery slope... perhaps this is what gun owners feel when new "small and reasonable " restrictions are placed on a right they are defending. I keep hearing about "common sense " restrictions but more and more keep coming...

Slippery slopes are slippery for everyone...
Slippery indeed.  To back DeSantis' redundant and questionable laws while opposing sensible firearm restrictions is hypocritical.  I would love to see a "gun rights" advocate just once quote the entire 2nd amendment instead of the usual "right to bear arms" snippet of that amendment.  The amendment already contains restrictions that the NRA and gun nuts always ignore.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 02, 2021, 01:47:07 PM
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.

Sounds like the slippery slope... perhaps this is what gun owners feel when new "small and reasonable " restrictions are placed on a right they are defending. I keep hearing about "common sense " restrictions but more and more keep coming...

Slippery slopes are slippery for everyone...
Slippery indeed.  To back DeSantis' redundant and questionable laws while opposing sensible firearm restrictions is hypocritical.  I would love to see a "gun rights" advocate just once quote the entire 2nd amendment instead of the usual "right to bear arms" snippet of that amendment.  The amendment already contains restrictions that the NRA and gun nuts always ignore.

Taking a step back from our personal views and feelings, I think this comparison could help the two sides understand each other a bit better. The "this survey could be used by government to curtail first amendment rights" argument could easily be reframed as the "gun registries could be used by government to curtail second amendment rights" fear gun owners have. To me, instead of sowing division, it should reinforce why we should be able to unite against the theme of government overreach, as it has the capacity to threaten any right.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 02, 2021, 04:28:44 PM
Interesting discussion... sorry I missed it but a friend needed help harvesting 300 pounds of honey...

Happy Fourth to everyone!!!! 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Snaketoz on July 02, 2021, 04:38:23 PM
Same to you B.T., and everyone else.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: bl8jaxnative on July 14, 2021, 09:22:24 AM
The problem is when web hosting services, also private companies, are allowed to censor speech by denying a platform to competitors. What if Facebook, Google, Amazon, and Microsoft were run by a bunch of Nazis? Would we defend their rights as private entities to run their businesses and censor speech they deemed false or inflammatory, while limiting platform access to liberal competitors?

I don't think the tech giants should be playing a role in being active arbiters of truthfulness or censorship, but hey, that's their prerogative. The antitrust measures Biden's administration are pursuing seem sensible, but are themselves running into legal obstacles.

Please be sure to include Fox News in this discussion.  I consider them much more worrisome than the tech giants based on their track record to date.  Their shows have far more viewers than any single post on a web site as a rule and its clear that Fox has impacted the direction of politics, policy and the quality of discourse in this country over the last few decades, and not necessarily for the better.

Just as DeSantis lost his case to regulate social media, I suspect any other efforts to regulate the techs control of their sites may fail for the same reasons.  I haven't seen any cable channels being asked to provide "balanced" content and not just anyone can set up a channel.  And while web companies have market clout, anyone can pretty much establish a web site to offer their view of the world.  Getting traffic to their site is their real issue.  Trump just gave up on his "blog" for this reason supposedly.

Sounds like the slippery slope... perhaps this is what gun owners feel when new "small and reasonable " restrictions are placed on a right they are defending. I keep hearing about "common sense " restrictions but more and more keep coming...

Slippery slopes are slippery for everyone...
Slippery indeed.  To back DeSantis' redundant and questionable laws while opposing sensible firearm restrictions is hypocritical.  I would love to see a "gun rights" advocate just once quote the entire 2nd amendment instead of the usual "right to bear arms" snippet of that amendment.  The amendment already contains restrictions that the NRA and gun nuts always ignore.



No, it does not


Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 14, 2021, 09:34:53 AM
Where can I get me a Stinger Missle, or perhaps a Tactical Nuclear Weapon?  I think they are necessary so I can help preserve the security of a free state.

Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 14, 2021, 10:47:23 AM
Where can I get me a Stinger Missle, or perhaps a Tactical Nuclear Weapon?  I think they are necessary so I can help preserve the security of a free state.



Sooo... sounds like you agree that any of the Bill of Rights can be limited.  Perhaps we just differ on the restrictions...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: bl8jaxnative on July 17, 2021, 02:31:41 PM
Where can I get me a Stinger Missle, or perhaps a Tactical Nuclear Weapon?  I think they are necessary so I can help preserve the security of a free state.

Note that your claim is the admendment contains restrictions. 

It does not contain restrictions.

again:
Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.




That's my only point.  Your restrictions claim is incorrect.  It does not contain them.


Should their be limitations?  Sure.



But that's moving far away from the original problem.  A bunch of  whingin' numpties took a simple survey and declared that the end of the world is coming cuz of all the evil things that will be done with survey.

Really?  The problem is the survey?

Like the Census.  The frickin' census.


For anything nefarious to be done by anyone, you will need this Florida survey to track WHO answered what.   If the laws don't dictate that the WHO part may not be tracked, then we don't have the potential for abuse.

Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 17, 2021, 04:26:44 PM
I am confused.
First, you say that the 2nd Amendment does not allow any restrictions on the possession of "arms" by citizens.
Then you say "Should there be limitations? Sure."
What is the difference between "restrictions" and "limitations" on the right to keep and bear Arms?
I was arguing there are already laws limiting (or restricting) the arms I can keep and bear.  The debate is over where to draw the line on what weapons can be restricted (or limited) from personal use (or, keeping and bearing, if you prefer).

But, to join you back at the original point.
Quote
For anything nefarious to be done by anyone, you will need this Florida survey to track WHO answered what.  If the laws don't dictate that the WHO part may not be tracked, then we don't have the potential for abuse.

I think you may have inadvertently typed a double-negative obscuring your point.  To achieve nefarious ends, the powers that be would have to be able to track how individuals respond to the survey, instead of just seeing aggregated results. "Charles Hunter replied 'Yes' to Question 2" vs. "72.3% of respondents picked 'Yes' for Question 2."  The law signed by the Governor does NOT include a requirement that the survey be anonymous.  The relevant section of the law:
Quote
Ch2021-159  [CS for HB 233]
(b) The State Board of Education [Board of Governors] shall require each Florida College System [state university] institution to conduct an annual assessment of the intellectual freedom and viewpoint diversity at that institution. The State Board of Education shall select or create an objective, nonpartisan, and statistically valid survey to be used by each institution which considers the extent to which competing ideas and perspectives are presented and members of the college community, including students, faculty, and staff, feel free to express their beliefs and viewpoints on campus and in the classroom. The State Board of Education [Board of Governors] shall annually compile and publish the assessments by September 1 of each year, beginning on September 1, 2022. The State Board of Education [Board of Governors] may adopt rules to implement this paragraph.

This language does not say anything about an anonymous survey.  That may be intent, but it is not in the language of the law.

The same language is in sections 1001.03 (19)(b) and 1001.706 (13)(b), one refers to the Florida College System, the other to the State University System.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 18, 2021, 11:09:08 PM
^Even an anonymous survey can have chilling effects.  Respondents may not fully trust that it is anonymous.  But, more so, the survey takers can take the results and manipulate their interpretation of said results to use it as an excuse to further regulate the teachings and curriculum of the faculty.  Isn't that the whole purpose of this rule?  To police the speech in the classroom and bend it to someone's arbitrary standard.  Thus, the "thought police."

If DeSantis doesn't like the point of views on a campus, why doesn't he volunteer himself to be an adjunct professor and teach a political science class.  Students who want to hear his approach to problem solving are welcome to enroll.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 19, 2021, 06:42:35 AM
^Even an anonymous survey can have chilling effects.  Respondents may not fully trust that it is anonymous.  But, more so, the survey takers can take the results and manipulate their interpretation of said results to use it as an excuse to further regulate the teachings and curriculum of the faculty.  Isn't that the whole purpose of this rule?  To police the speech in the classroom and bend it to someone's arbitrary standard.  Thus, the "thought police."

If DeSantis doesn't like the point of views on a campus, why doesn't he volunteer himself to be an adjunct professor and teach a political science class.  Students who want to hear his approach to problem solving are welcomed to enroll.
Lol...really??? Going there???  Half of the polling conducted in the country originates at university and college.

STOP IT...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Tacachale on July 19, 2021, 07:32:24 AM
While I don’t trust the state to create polling that’s fair or useful in this case, polling itself is par for the course at a college. We poll and survey EVERYTHING. The issue is going to be biased polling (leading questions, engineered to get a preconceived conclusion, etc.) and the stated threat of cutting off funding if the schools don’t meet whatever DeSantis claims is the threshold for ideological purity.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 19, 2021, 08:10:37 AM
Sooo... this is a question of trust. This seems to be a nationwide problem. Dems don't trust reps... black doesn't trust white... right doesn't trust left... people don't trust police, vaccines, doctors, scientists...

We are truly in trouble...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Tacachale on July 19, 2021, 09:41:40 AM
Sooo... this is a question of trust. This seems to be a nationwide problem. Dems don't trust reps... black doesn't trust white... right doesn't trust left... people don't trust police, vaccines, doctors, scientists...

We are truly in trouble...

I don't have any problem trusting Republicans. I have a problem trusting someone who starts out by saying that colleges are "hotbeds of stale ideology" that are "indoctrinating" students when that doesn't jibe even remotely with my experience working at a college for 12 years.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 19, 2021, 10:08:47 AM
Sooo... this is a question of trust. This seems to be a nationwide problem. Dems don't trust reps... black doesn't trust white... right doesn't trust left... people don't trust police, vaccines, doctors, scientists...

We are truly in trouble...

I don't have any problem trusting Republicans. I have a problem trusting someone who starts out by saying that colleges are "hotbeds of stale ideology" that are "indoctrinating" students when that doesn't jibe even remotely with my experience working at a college for 12 years.

Fair enough...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 19, 2021, 11:51:39 AM
Sooo... this is a question of trust. This seems to be a nationwide problem. Dems don't trust reps... black doesn't trust white... right doesn't trust left... people don't trust police, vaccines, doctors, scientists...

We are truly in trouble...

I don't have any problem trusting Republicans. I have a problem trusting someone who starts out by saying that colleges are "hotbeds of stale ideology" that are "indoctrinating" students when that doesn't jibe even remotely with my experience working at a college for 12 years.

My point exactly.  The required survey is to meet an agenda, not to improve the education provided by the colleges.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: JeffreyS on July 19, 2021, 12:30:41 PM
Sooo... this is a question of trust. This seems to be a nationwide problem. Dems don't trust reps... black doesn't trust white... right doesn't trust left... people don't trust police, vaccines, doctors, scientists...

We are truly in trouble...

I don't have any problem trusting Republicans. I have a problem trusting someone who starts out by saying that colleges are "hotbeds of stale ideology" that are "indoctrinating" students when that doesn't jibe even remotely with my experience working at a college for 12 years.

Fair enough...

So he presumes the findings and threatens funding based on his approval of the findings. (Per the announcement press conference).
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 19, 2021, 12:42:22 PM
Trust. You don't trust DeSantis. Not surprising. As I thought... no one really trusts anyone and that's why he really doesn't care what you think of the survey. He... and others have reports of political intimidation of students and faculty. It's completely reasonable to anonymously survey or poll both groups to find the extent of these allegations. I support these actions 100%.

I am interested in the truth. While I believe Taca... his experience at UNF may not be an accurate representation of the entire system...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: JeffreyS on July 19, 2021, 06:58:16 PM
If I trust DeSantis’s statement then he has made up his mind and will punish academia accordingly.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 19, 2021, 07:54:55 PM
I assume you are against intimidation. If it is found to exist remediation needs to occur.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 19, 2021, 09:15:47 PM
I assume you are against intimidation. If it is found to exist remediation needs to occur.

Even if it is the Governor doing the intimidating.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 20, 2021, 06:16:14 AM
I assume you are against intimidation. If it is found to exist remediation needs to occur.

Even if it is the Governor doing the intimidating.
Lol...
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 10:14:37 AM
So now D Santis HAS to sue the NFL, correct?

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/nfl-covid-19-rules-vaccination-rates/6v3xql6rfjrj1ojdzteunbm0d
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: JPalmer on July 23, 2021, 10:24:40 AM
No, this is an example of being voluntold.  Clearly a move by the NFL to force peer pressure and thought police amongst teammates. 
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 10:27:27 AM
Agree. Nothing to do with player safety.   

D Santis...... what a ___________. 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/07/22/ron-desantis-florida-covid-cases-rise-santiago-pkg-ebof-vpx.cnn

"Florida global epicenter of outbreak " last summer and now leads the Nation in new weekly Covid cases. What a clusterf$ck.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 23, 2021, 12:55:27 PM
Lol... you are all over the map MM except you hate all DeSantis decisions...  just what exactly does he have to do with the NFL rulings??

Are you proposing mandatory vaccination statewide?  Are you proposing mandatory masks again?  Are you proposing mandatory closures of schools, restaurants and such... just wtf is it you want???
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 23, 2021, 01:23:29 PM
MusicMan can provide his own answer, but the way I make DeSantis/NFL connection is the law prohibiting "vaccine passports" - was based on the initial reporting of the NFL's announcement. Subsequently, I have seen that the NFL is not requiring players and staff to be vaccinated, but:
Quote


NFL Network's Tom Pelissero reported Thursday that the NFL sent a memo to its clubs stating that if a game cannot be rescheduled during the 18-week schedule due to a COVID-19 outbreak among unvaccinated players, the team with the outbreak will forfeit and be credited with a loss, per sources informed of the situation.

In addition, players on both teams will not be paid for the lost contest, and the team responsible for the cancelled game due to unvaccinated players will cover financial losses and be subject to potential discipline from the Commissioner's office.

So, employees do not have to be vaccinated, but if their refusal leads to a COVID outbreak, their team could face significant penalties, and even the innocent team affected by a cancelation loses their paychecks for the week.
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 02:22:49 PM
The NFL can require it for work.  They are giving the players the choice. 

What I would like is a policy that puts the health of Florida's citizens first, not pandering to a small base of a rejected president by a presidential wanna be.  Hell, even honest Repubs acknowledge this is pandering to the Trump base.  Political fund raising by bashing Dr Fauci?  That's right out of the Trump playbook. 
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 23, 2021, 04:34:00 PM
The NFL can require it for work.  They are giving the players the choice. 

What I would like is a policy that puts the health of Florida's citizens first, not pandering to a small base of a rejected president by a presidential wanna be.  Hell, even honest Repubs acknowledge this is pandering to the Trump base.  Political fund raising by bashing Dr Fauci?  That's right out of the Trump playbook. 

Pretty broad and non committal... requiring vaccination would be citizens health first... closing restaurants and schools would be citizens first...

WTF do you mean???
Title: Re: DeSantis Promoting Thought Police
Post by: BridgeTroll on July 23, 2021, 04:36:50 PM
I have no issue with DeSantis criticism... but have an actual policy alternative... citizens first means nothing.