The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: thelakelander on April 09, 2021, 08:17:55 AM

Title: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 09, 2021, 08:17:55 AM
Quote
A Jacksonville police officer's recent comments in an arrest report perpetuate an emerging concern about e-scooters after he chased a violator around downtown.

"It should be noted that failure to operate motorized scooters safely and in accordance with Florida statutes has recently become a rampant and very dangerous problem in the urban core since several businesses have started making electric motorized scooters available to the public for rent," Officer J.R. Peppers wrote.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2021/04/09/jacksonville-escooter-pilot-program-safety-concerns-police/7058927002/
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: JPalmer on April 09, 2021, 10:01:42 AM
That police officer needs to get a life.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: WAJAS on April 09, 2021, 04:01:04 PM
I'm curious as to why the complaint of a single officer has resulted in a whole article's worth of attention. Is this the broad opinion of the organization?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 09, 2021, 04:39:32 PM
Let’s try to have reasonable conversations with the people on the scooters. They just need to be reminded of the laws. With that said, there are more scooters on the road at night than cars driving in downtown at night. Therefore, I can understand to some degree why they ride through downtown carefree.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 09, 2021, 07:14:20 PM
Probably not used to seeing that much traffic in downtown during the nights and weekends!
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Lunican on April 10, 2021, 08:34:08 PM
The scooters are definitely popular at night. I wonder how they are performing compared to expectations?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 11, 2021, 09:47:28 AM
(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/b9/b5/9a/b9b59a409694c9c6da691e14e9808129.jpg)

God forbid the youths have a reason to have fun in the CBD and become more engaged with the urban core.

Can't we all just go back to the good-old days pre-scooter when the streets looked like a set from 28 Days Later?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: fieldafm on April 11, 2021, 09:52:31 AM
Yesterday I witnessed a man urinating on a parked vehicle, another individual defecting on an office doorway and a woman screaming out just the 'f' word to families taking their children to the bbq competition at the former Landing site.

This morning, I witnessed a man tear out flowers I had just replanted in planter boxes yesterday, and another man running down Hogan Street completely, stark naked.

But yes, the scooters are the problem.....   ::)
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 11, 2021, 10:31:27 AM
One night this past week I left the office around 10 PM.  I was shocked at what I saw, personally, and I doubt I'm alone in thinking what I was thinking when I was seeing what I was seeing.  I'll recap as politely as possible:

- wayyyyy more scooter usage than in the day, I think probably every scooter was taken
- 80% male
- 80% 16-24 years old by my guess
- 100% African American

And as I was driving down Bay to take Riverside to go home, from work, I faced a group on scooters coming the wrong way occupying the left lane on Bay, screaming at me as I passed by in one of the middle lanes.  I'm not sure what they were saying.

I personally think what I saw was a recipe for disaster.

And to tell the cop to get a life - I'm pretty over the progressive anti-cop mentality.  I spent 7 recent years in SF.  Take that attitude and that worldview there.  Been there done that and it's not a good result.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Zac T on April 11, 2021, 10:51:00 AM
- 100% African American

I'm just wondering what the race of the riders on any particular day has to do with anything?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 11, 2021, 11:14:56 AM
- 100% African American

I'm just wondering what the race of the riders on any particular day has to do with anything?


IF it was 80% female, 80% 65+, and 100% Asian, you wouldn't be having a hard time with me bringing that up now would you?  I'd be far more astounded if that was the case for many reasons; unfortunately based on everything I've experienced and witnessed in my life, I wasn't too surprised to see what I saw.

I'm just going off of what we all know, groups of predominantly AA males between 16-24 commit a disproportionate amount of crime.  Maybe THESE groups won't, but seeing them roaming around aimlessly and lawlessly on scooters late at night on random weeknights won't be "comforting" to literally any other groups of people (including other African Americans) bc everyone knows crime stats and people aren't idiots.  They won't feel safe walking around alone at night with that going on.  I thought we wanted a vibrant downtown for everyone?

And besides, why is it only young black males riding these things at night?  What's up with that?  Why can't we ask that question?  I suppose we should just ignore everything nowadays.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 11, 2021, 11:20:57 AM
I'll add: I can't think of a reason really why ANYONE would be needing the scooters at 10 PM on a weeknight in DT Jax.  To see them ALL occupied then, and by a demographic that reasonably raises suspicions and eyebrows from people of all demographics, is kind of shocking.  I can't see anything good coming of it, but I hope it's all harmless.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on April 11, 2021, 12:16:32 PM
I'll add: I can't think of a reason really why ANYONE would be needing the scooters at 10 PM on a weeknight in DT Jax.  To see them ALL occupied then, and by a demographic that reasonably raises suspicions and eyebrows from people of all demographics, is kind of shocking.  I can't see anything good coming of it, but I hope it's all harmless.

What a series of ridiculous overprivileged white guy takes.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 11, 2021, 02:52:48 PM
I'll add: I can't think of a reason really why ANYONE would be needing the scooters at 10 PM on a weeknight in DT Jax.  To see them ALL occupied then, and by a demographic that reasonably raises suspicions and eyebrows from people of all demographics, is kind of shocking.  I can't see anything good coming of it, but I hope it's all harmless.

Honestly curious. Would you have this strong of a negative reaction if it was a bunch of white kids on skateboards? Would that make the area as uninviting to everyone else? Or a bunch of Nocatee/Jax Beach yuppies tipsily cruising around in golf carts?

Just looking at the data from recent studies on scooter share:

- In terms of the gender distribution that you mention, 80% male is right in line with the 75% male ridership that escooter studies have estimated. Females actually have a higher positive sentiment toward scootershare overall than males, but for a variety of reasons (higher risk aversion, more difficult clothing logistics, etc.), they’re less likely to actually ride, particularly in mixed traffic.

- In terms of time of day, studies have also shown that in areas that don’t have dedicated infrastructure and right-of-way for scooters, the leisure riders tend to rent the scooters during off hours when they don’t have to contend with as much mixed traffic. Nothing inherently wrong or surprising with riders coming out at night, after work/school/dinner, away from heavy traffic. It’s no different than the night time bike rides we used to see through downtown (except the pesky demos), or again, what you’d see somewhere like Jax Beach.

- The demographic component also shouldn’t be surprising, either. Again, lots of studies showing that escooters are particularly popular with lower income segments of the population who might not necessarily have the same means for other forms of transportation. I’ve mentioned in this thread a few times how the scooters are bringing new types of people into the urban core, beyond just the middle aged white demo. To me, this is a WONDERFUL thing. Net new downtown visitors with enough disposable income to rent moderately priced scooters can only be beneficial to downtown businesses. Particularly when the city just QUADRUPLED meter rates for restaurant parking.

Can only speak for myself personally, but both day and night, I’ve never seen anything besides people from all walks of life having fun exploring downtown. Some riders could always be more aware of their surroundings, sure, but I’ve had more close calls with Jimmy John’s bicyclers than I’ve had with the youths on their scooters. And to Mike’s point above, not only are there an increasing number of genuinely unsavory people downtown (the drug-addled and disturbed), but there aren’t as many regular, working people to balance them out either during the pandemic. I sure feel safer walking to the parking garage at 10 PM with all the people on the streets than I did pre-scooter when it was just me and the unstables.

I’m not anti-cop, but I’m definitely pro-data and anti-profiling, particularly when there hasn’t been an uptick in crime to back up the insinuation that these kids are up to no good.


Just a couple, but there’s a lot out there:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-12-05/most-electric-scooter-riders-are-men-here-s-why
https://findingspress.org/article/10777-shedding-nhts-light-on-the-use-of-little-vehicles-in-urban-areas
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Lunican on April 11, 2021, 05:11:27 PM
One night this past week I left the office around 10 PM.  I was shocked at what I saw, personally, and I doubt I'm alone in thinking what I was thinking when I was seeing what I was seeing.  I'll recap as politely as possible:

- wayyyyy more scooter usage than in the day, I think probably every scooter was taken
- 80% male
- 80% 16-24 years old by my guess
- 100% African American

And as I was driving down Bay to take Riverside to go home, from work, I faced a group on scooters coming the wrong way occupying the left lane on Bay, screaming at me as I passed by in one of the middle lanes.  I'm not sure what they were saying.

I personally think what I saw was a recipe for disaster.

And to tell the cop to get a life - I'm pretty over the progressive anti-cop mentality.  I spent 7 recent years in SF.  Take that attitude and that worldview there.  Been there done that and it's not a good result.

Sounds really scary for you. Maybe leave work earlier so you can get home before dark?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Lunican on April 11, 2021, 05:14:11 PM
I'll add: I can't think of a reason really why ANYONE would be needing the scooters at 10 PM on a weeknight in DT Jax.  To see them ALL occupied then, and by a demographic that reasonably raises suspicions and eyebrows from people of all demographics, is kind of shocking.  I can't see anything good coming of it, but I hope it's all harmless.

I can't think of any reason why ANYONE would be needing to be in the office at 10 PM on a weeknight in DT Jax. Especially by a demographic that reasonably raises suspicions and eyebrows from people of all demographics for financial crimes.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 11, 2021, 06:23:56 PM
And besides, why is it only young black males riding these things at night?  What's up with that?  Why can't we ask that question?  I suppose we should just ignore everything nowadays.

I've been downtown at night a few times since the scooters arrived. I've seen young women of various races riding them late too. So my experience has been a bit different. If these would have been around back when I was in my late teens and early 20s, I imagine that me and my friends would have been riding them too since they are a cheap form of entertainment. I'm happy to see the additional people enjoying a downtown amenity. I just wish the downtown economy was such that it could support more businesses being able to stay open at nights.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on April 11, 2021, 09:13:45 PM
One night this past week I left the office around 10 PM.  I was shocked at what I saw, personally, and I doubt I'm alone in thinking what I was thinking when I was seeing what I was seeing.  I'll recap as politely as possible:

- wayyyyy more scooter usage than in the day, I think probably every scooter was taken
- 80% male
- 80% 16-24 years old by my guess
- 100% African American

And as I was driving down Bay to take Riverside to go home, from work, I faced a group on scooters coming the wrong way occupying the left lane on Bay, screaming at me as I passed by in one of the middle lanes.  I'm not sure what they were saying.

I personally think what I saw was a recipe for disaster.

And to tell the cop to get a life - I'm pretty over the progressive anti-cop mentality.  I spent 7 recent years in SF.  Take that attitude and that worldview there.  Been there done that and it's not a good result.

Sounds really scary for you. Maybe leave work earlier so you can get home before dark?

Bahaha
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 12, 2021, 01:37:19 PM
I have definitely seen a good mix of people on the scooters at night not just Black males. The scooters have definitely been a success at this point. 
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 12, 2021, 06:11:21 PM
Is all the activity e-scooters?  I have seen packs of gas powered "mini-bikes" (look like tiny stripped down motorcycles so not sure if this is the right term  8) )racing down streets emanating from the urban core in the last few weeks.  Are they mixing it up with the e-scooter folks or is it just coincidence?  They are aggressive riders and I worry about their safety.  It's hard enough surviving our ever-spreading potholes with a car.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: WAJAS on April 12, 2021, 07:51:30 PM
Is all the activity e-scooters?  I have seen packs of gas powered "mini-bikes" (look like tiny stripped down motorcycles so not sure if this is the right term  8) )racing down streets emanating from the urban core in the last few weeks.  Are they mixing it up with the e-scooter folks or is it just coincidence?  They are aggressive riders and I worry about their safety.  It's hard enough surviving our ever-spreading potholes with a car.
Those would be personally owned vehicles. The new stuff is only the scooters.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: fsu813 on April 12, 2021, 10:51:43 PM
Is all the activity e-scooters?  I have seen packs of gas powered "mini-bikes" (look like tiny stripped down motorcycles so not sure if this is the right term  8) )racing down streets emanating from the urban core in the last few weeks.  Are they mixing it up with the e-scooter folks or is it just coincidence?  They are aggressive riders and I worry about their safety.  It's hard enough surviving our ever-spreading potholes with a car.

There was an outdoor mini bike convention in Jax last weekend. I assume you saw activity from that.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 13, 2021, 10:20:17 AM
"This morning, I witnessed a man tear out flowers I had just replanted in planter boxes yesterday, and another man running down Hogan Street completely, stark naked."

Can someone, anyone, buy the Mayor a suit please!
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on April 16, 2021, 08:58:27 AM
( unfortunately ) there are packs of motorcycles, atvs, quads, minibikes, dirt bikes, etc that occasionally drive around, usually on the weekends.  They have "wonderful" habits like running red light, wheelies, driving against traffic, et al.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 17, 2021, 06:48:52 PM
I'm not sure what the original "plan" was for the scooters, but it probably did not include late night joy rides by kids aged 12-22. That being said, it's money for the vendors, and life being injected into a downtown sorely in need of any commercial activity it can generate. I think it would behoove COJ and the Sheriff to have 2-4 cops on even bigger and faster scooters on patrol to make sure everyone has a fun time without harassing drivers, pedestrians, or residents. My buddy who lives at Churchwell Lofts says it's close to getting out of hand, especially with the 'Fast and Furious' element that's been doing burnouts and donuts on City streets after dark. 
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: marcuscnelson on April 17, 2021, 08:08:57 PM
These scooters are capable of doing burnouts and donuts?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 17, 2021, 08:56:34 PM
Of course not. It's The Fast and the Furious wannabe's who come down with high horsepower/torque cars doing it. You can actually go downtown and see for your self if your brave enough. Note the burned rubber circles in front of The landing/Lenny's Lawn,,,,,,(Hogan and Water St) among others............... all the increased activity on the scooters has brought additional thrill seekers to downtown.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: heights unknown on April 18, 2021, 10:12:41 AM
Was cruising around Jax yesterday, especially downtown. I've moved back home to North Florida, not Jax, and I've got my reasons; but since I moved back, I've visited Jax numerous times. Yes, saw the scooters; placed at strategic points to utilize, and, people scurrying around on them; not impressed. Not impressed with the scooters, and not impressed with downtown Jax. I am really pissed about Lenny's Lawn. Get that Mayor out of our town and out of our State. He is a sorry excuse for anything. Downtown is really sad looking. I would guess if you've been here or lived in Jax for a long time, you just don't notice it or see it. The buildings and scrapers look worn down and worn out, in need of cleaning and pressure washing. Still empty lots, abandoned buildings, undeveloped land, something you see very less of in Miami, Tampa, Orlando, St. Petersburg, and even smaller towns and cities than Jax. Scooters. Scooters? OMG. They demolish a very precious and valuable piece of land and property and scooters are what's on the news almost daily about downtown Jacksonville. I shouldn't be griping and complaining? No I don't live in Jax, but was born there, raised there, it's my city, and I am totally incensed and at a loss as to why our leaders allow our urban core to slip and slide into the abyss like it has (this is what I see). As I've said, consolidation is just a mask. We are not a city of a million people, far from it; at least we could or should act like it (and yes, hustle,  bustle, skyscrapers, mass entertainment, bars, restaurants...to prove we deserve to be a city of 1 million people); otherwise, ditch the consolidation mask, annex a few neighborhoods and areas, and a city of around 350,000 is possibly what we would be; but still, our downtown, and the city as a whole, doesn't even live up to that population; more like 90,000 if that. That's what Jax looks and acts like. I would say Gainesville, and Tallahassee are the principal cities of Northern Florida; not Jacksonville...and it pains me to say this. Yeah Heights keep complaining...but guess what? I don't get paid the big bucks nor have the background, education and experience to run a city based on the citizens electing me as such...but it's obvious the powers that be, namely the people elected to run Jax, don't know their booty hole from a hole in the ground. I will be 65 soon. You think I'll live long enough to see Jax be the city that it's been yearning to be or should be? Don't hold your breath and I certainly won't hold mine; and...you guys that run this forum, and by the way my hats off to you for doing a superb job, don't think that because you are in your 40's or early 50's that you will see Jax burgeon into what it should be or need to be; again...don't...hold...your...breath! (sigh)...there...I said it.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: heights unknown on April 18, 2021, 10:19:22 AM
P.S. - and by the way, maybe I could run Jax; and I know you guys that run this forum can. And...I've learned quite a lot of how to run a city, lead, organize and plan in that regard, from just being in this forum since its inception! Thanks for the education guys.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 18, 2021, 01:26:50 PM
100% correct Sir! ^^^^^
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 18, 2021, 07:51:19 PM
Downtown is really sad looking. I would guess if you've been here or lived in Jax for a long time, you just don't notice it or see it.

This is a really interesting point that I think there’s a lot of truth to. I notice it a lot when walking to lunch with clients coming in from out of town, for example. To many of us, Laura Street is arguably downtown’s crown jewel. Kind of front and center when we talk about downtown redevelopment and momentum.

To passive observers, however, it looks like it was bombed back in World War II and nobody ever got around to repairing the damage. Shelled out buildings. Entire chunks of other buildings missing. Razor wire and chain-link fencing.

I hope that certain City Council members complaining about the cost of the Trio project have the opportunity to walk Laura Street with some fresh sets of eyes as well.

Re: the scooters.

After some of the discussion here recently, I’ve been listening to a lot of conversations around downtown about the scooters here in the last week. In many cases, what I’ve heard has been sadly revealing about prejudices you’d hope that we’d be much closer to moving away from. I’ve overheard a lot of comments that could easily start with, “I’m not racist, but...”

I think how the city and police ultimately respond to an influx of minorities riding scooters downtown (in the absence of any criminal activity, mind you) is going to be really telling about where we’re at.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 18, 2021, 09:36:42 PM
^I believe those prejudices have a lot to do with why the Landing is gone as well. Some of us need to have a newsflash and get more familiar with Jax's actual demographics today and the trends of where things are headed. It's becoming a more racially and culturally diverse city, where minorities will soon become the majority....(this may have already happened). So if people are envisioning downtown's future as a homogeneous space like St. Johns County or the Beaches, they may as well move to those places because that's not where things are headed.

I also believe there's truth to heights unknown's impressions. My brother, who lives in South Florida, has started visiting town for work occasionally. His first trip, he stayed in the Omni downtown. He thought the entire area felt like a dying Rust Belt community and wondered what was limiting downtown because it had some great old buildings that they don't have down south. Later that week, he discovered town center and mentioned, that the entire city had moved there, and that's where he'll be staying when he's in town for work from now on. He was here again last week and mentioned that the core of the city was pretty depressing. However, he was really impressed with a variety of areas like Heckscher Drive, Riverside and even the natural landscape of Mandarin.

I also travel a lot and its pretty evident that the only "crown jewel" about Laura Street is a streetscape that was done a decade ago. Other than that, it's a pretty quiet corridor in comparison to even the main streets of little towns like Mount Dora and Winter Garden. You get real depressed when you witness the vibrancy of central business districts at street level in the larger cities. We have our work cut out for us. I'm hoping VyStar and the Trio can help change that, but to be honest, we're still a few years away at best. Call me a realist, but I do think that it does us best to be honest about our ailments, in order to properly address and overcome them.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 18, 2021, 10:34:28 PM
^Jacksonville's Downtown doesn't compare to many small towns in America.  Whether Fernandina or St. Augustine close to home, Lake City or  Winter Park a bit further away, St. Mary's or St. Simons in Ga., Beaufort or Anderson, S.C.... you get the idea.  All have more going for them than here.  Of course, almost every mid to large sized city has us beat by a country mile.

It's been said here before... it's not rocket science.  It's good and consistent zoning that supports retail street facings, appropriate green space, preservation of buildings with character (usually historic), integration of the arts and culture, clustering, user-friendly and reliable mass and circulating transit (not to be confused with the Skyway or AV's), good connectivity to surrounding neighborhoods (repeat prior parenthetical), support for walk-ability and bikes, achieving good building design and scale... and all we care about are Shad Khan and the Jaguars being happy, putting $400 million or so into JTA pipe dreams and tearing down buildings with little forethought.

So frustrating... going on since the end of WW II making it almost 80 years of failure.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: heights unknown on April 18, 2021, 10:41:38 PM
"To passive observers, however, it looks like it was bombed back in World War II and nobody ever got around to repairing the damage. Shelled out buildings. Entire chunks of other buildings missing. Razor wire and chain-link fencing."

LOLOLOLOL...I'm sorry, but my side is hurting from reading this over and over; it is too funny, but alas, so true!
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 19, 2021, 09:16:54 AM
Re: the scooters.

After some of the discussion here recently, I’ve been listening to a lot of conversations around downtown about the scooters here in the last week. In many cases, what I’ve heard has been sadly revealing about prejudices you’d hope that we’d be much closer to moving away from. I’ve overheard a lot of comments that could easily start with, “I’m not racist, but...”

I think how the city and police ultimately respond to an influx of minorities riding scooters downtown (in the absence of any criminal activity, mind you) is going to be really telling about where we’re at.


You can both be ok with diversity and have a bit of skepticism about the late night scooter crowd at the same time.  Heck, if I were a single black lady walking the streets of downtown Jax at night, I'd be just as cautious and perhaps a bit nervous as anyone else (probably moreso to be honest), because we all know crime stats, we all have spidey senses, and we all know it's probably a lack of parenting and a few other things that lead to throngs of young black men, plenty of them obviously older teens, to be riding around on the scooters late at night on any given weeknight.  Some of them are still at the age that they need supervision and a bedtime, like anyone else of that age.

And if they are 22+, do they not work in the morning?  Do they not have night jobs?  Any jobs at all?  Who knows, but we can all wonder.

It's one thing to appreciate a diverse population.  But literally 100% (as it would appear) 16-24 year old black men riding scooters at 10 PM or later is not "diverse".  That's about as narrow a demographic as one can get down to, and it's the demographic that commits a ridiculously disproportionate amount of crime, and here they all are unsupervised roaming around downtown on scooters, clearly brazen enough to taunt police officers and break traffic laws.  How much longer until a tragedy happens and then will that publicity be GOOD for downtown?  GOOD for overall race relations?

We can avoid these questions all we want but we cannot avoid realities or realities of perceptions grounded in unfortunate crime stats and I have no problem speaking up about it in 2021 because it does NOBODY any good to avoid these truths.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2021, 10:42:31 AM
^Has crime gone up since the scooter program started?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 19, 2021, 11:25:03 AM
^Has crime gone up since the scooter program started?

I have not looked at more serious level crime stats, but I think it goes without saying we know of at least one crime so far since it was written about in the papers - the guy who taunted the police, then ran from the cop and resisted arrest.  To me, that's pretty brazen - something I would not consider doing, nor would the people I know in my life consider doing.  To me, that indicates a willingness to do pretty much anything and who knows what influences that individual has in his life to consider doing that - and yes, I stereotype the YOUTHS who populate the scooters downtown AT NIGHT as the kind of people with few good influences in their life, and I don't want to put myself in a situation with them that I don't want to.  I prefer my bubble!

But when I observe the behavior of the scooter riders at night, which by the way is breaking traffic laws (though something I'm a lot less concerned about and something I have done myself), overall it becomes clear that there is a bit of a mob mentality that comes with the territory here.  They "own" the streets at night, are young, immature, and bold (as most young men are).  It's not a good combination.

Put it this way...I would be cautious around ANY bands of 16-22 year old male youths roaming around wrecklessly on scooters late at night on any given weeknight, but even more cautious around black young men than say Asian young men - stats don't lie and WE ALL KNOW THEM.  Where are some of their mommas?  Now with the THIRTEEN year old who was recently shot in Chicago, who was riding around with a 21 year old shooting at cars at 2:30 AM, NO THANK YOU.  This is the same general type of crowd.  NO THANK YOU.

If one of the purposes of the scooters, is as we say, to provide an alternative transportation (for instance, to get from one end of downtown to the other for lunch in a timely manner, thereby extending the area of lunch/errand opportunities to downtown workers and tourists), what is the purpose of the scooters at 10 PM on a Tuesday night?

We simply do not have much foot traffic at night (or day), but I don't consider 19 year old men riding around aimlessly in groups at night to be "foot traffic", and I have had enough of my own incidents in my own life where I wouldn't be personally interested in being one of the only people walking around in that area at night (say from one bar to my car a couple blocks away) with this demographic roving around and hardly any police presence.  It's an invitation to an incident.

Thus, at the end of the day, what we view as a great program on this site (ignoring the large stream of complaints by the general public which we automatically label as racist and without merit) is seemingly being viewed by the public as an actual "deterrent" to coming downtown.  I'd rather see a DIVERSE mix of 25-50 year olds walking around downtown going to BUSINESSES, not 16-22 year olds with no interest going to bars/restaurants roaming around wrecklessly on scooters.  But sure, get what you want and don't be surprised by what you see as a result.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Zac T on April 19, 2021, 11:47:38 AM
^Has crime gone up since the scooter program started?

I have not looked at more serious level crime stats, but I think it goes without saying we know of at least one crime so far since it was written about in the papers - the guy who taunted the police, then ran from the cop and resisted arrest.  To me, that's pretty brazen - something I would not consider doing, nor would the people I know in my life consider doing.  To me, that indicates a willingness to do pretty much anything and who knows what influences that individual has in his life to consider doing that - and yes, I stereotype the YOUTHS who populate the scooters downtown AT NIGHT as the kind of people with few good influences in their life, and I don't want to put myself in a situation with them that I don't want to.  I prefer my bubble!

But when I observe the behavior of the scooter riders at night, which by the way is breaking traffic laws (though something I'm a lot less concerned about and something I have done myself), overall it becomes clear that there is a bit of a mob mentality that comes with the territory here.  They "own" the streets at night, are young, immature, and bold (as most young men are).  It's not a good combination.

Put it this way...I would be cautious around ANY bands of 16-22 year old male youths roaming around wrecklessly on scooters late at night on any given weeknight, but even more cautious around black young men than say Asian young men - stats don't lie and WE ALL KNOW THEM.  Where are some of their mommas?  Now with the THIRTEEN year old who was recently shot in Chicago, who was riding around with a 21 year old shooting at cars at 2:30 AM, NO THANK YOU.  This is the same general type of crowd.  NO THANK YOU.

If one of the purposes of the scooters, is as we say, to provide an alternative transportation (for instance, to get from one end of downtown to the other for lunch in a timely manner, thereby extending the area of lunch/errand opportunities to downtown workers and tourists), what is the purpose of the scooters at 10 PM on a Tuesday night?

We simply do not have much foot traffic at night (or day), but I don't consider 19 year old men riding around aimlessly in groups at night to be "foot traffic", and I have had enough of my own incidents in my own life where I wouldn't be personally interested in being one of the only people walking around in that area at night (say from one bar to my car a couple blocks away) with this demographic roving around and hardly any police presence.  It's an invitation to an incident.

Thus, at the end of the day, what we view as a great program on this site (ignoring the large stream of complaints by the general public which we automatically label as racist and without merit) is seemingly being viewed by the public as an actual "deterrent" to coming downtown.  I'd rather see a DIVERSE mix of 25-50 year olds walking around downtown going to BUSINESSES, not 16-22 year olds with no interest going to bars/restaurants roaming around wrecklessly on scooters.  But sure, get what you want and don't be surprised by what you see as a result.

Just say you're scared of black men and move on lol I've walked the streets of downtown at night with these young people riding scooters and haven't had a single issue. Yeah they're loud and reckless like any group of teenagers are but at the end of the day they're just kids trying to have fun. No different than the mobs of white boys that "terrorize" the dirt roads around my parents house in Clay County on their 4-wheelers and dirt bikes. And maybe your tunnel vision has you so focused on the 16-24 year old black men demographic but the nighttime scooter riders are a pretty diverse crowd from all ages and walks of life but I guess the black men just stand out to you due to your internal feelings towards them
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: fieldafm on April 19, 2021, 11:50:48 AM
^Has crime gone up since the scooter program started?

I have not looked at more serious level crime stats, but I think it goes without saying we know of at least one crime so far since it was written about in the papers - the guy who taunted the police, then ran from the cop and resisted arrest.  To me, that's pretty brazen - something I would not consider doing, nor would the people I know in my life consider doing.  To me, that indicates a willingness to do pretty much anything and who knows what influences that individual has in his life to consider doing that - and yes, I stereotype the YOUTHS who populate the scooters downtown AT NIGHT as the kind of people with few good influences in their life, and I don't want to put myself in a situation with them that I don't want to.  I prefer my bubble!

But when I observe the behavior of the scooter riders at night, which by the way is breaking traffic laws (though something I'm a lot less concerned about and something I have done myself), overall it becomes clear that there is a bit of a mob mentality that comes with the territory here.  They "own" the streets at night, are young, immature, and bold (as most young men are).  It's not a good combination.

Put it this way...I would be cautious around ANY bands of 16-22 year old male youths roaming around wrecklessly on scooters late at night on any given weeknight, but even more cautious around black young men than say Asian young men - stats don't lie and WE ALL KNOW THEM.  Where are some of their mommas?  Now with the THIRTEEN year old who was recently shot in Chicago, who was riding around with a 21 year old shooting at cars at 2:30 AM, NO THANK YOU.  This is the same general type of crowd.  NO THANK YOU.

If one of the purposes of the scooters, is as we say, to provide an alternative transportation (for instance, to get from one end of downtown to the other for lunch in a timely manner, thereby extending the area of lunch/errand opportunities to downtown workers and tourists), what is the purpose of the scooters at 10 PM on a Tuesday night?

We simply do not have much foot traffic at night (or day), but I don't consider 19 year old men riding around aimlessly in groups at night to be "foot traffic", and I have had enough of my own incidents in my own life where I wouldn't be personally interested in being one of the only people walking around in that area at night (say from one bar to my car a couple blocks away) with this demographic roving around and hardly any police presence.  It's an invitation to an incident.

Thus, at the end of the day, what we view as a great program on this site (ignoring the large stream of complaints by the general public which we automatically label as racist and without merit) is seemingly being viewed by the public as an actual "deterrent" to coming downtown.  I'd rather see a DIVERSE mix of 25-50 year olds walking around downtown going to BUSINESSES, not 16-22 year olds with no interest going to bars/restaurants roaming around wrecklessly on scooters.  But sure, get what you want and don't be surprised by what you see as a result.

So you see this is a policy issue, kind of like this?

(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/segregated-water-fountain-jacksonville-florida-united-states-1954-picture-id475350581)
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 19, 2021, 12:46:19 PM
^Has crime gone up since the scooter program started?

I have not looked at more serious level crime stats, but I think it goes without saying we know of at least one crime so far since it was written about in the papers - the guy who taunted the police, then ran from the cop and resisted arrest.  To me, that's pretty brazen - something I would not consider doing, nor would the people I know in my life consider doing.  To me, that indicates a willingness to do pretty much anything and who knows what influences that individual has in his life to consider doing that - and yes, I stereotype the YOUTHS who populate the scooters downtown AT NIGHT as the kind of people with few good influences in their life, and I don't want to put myself in a situation with them that I don't want to.  I prefer my bubble!

But when I observe the behavior of the scooter riders at night, which by the way is breaking traffic laws (though something I'm a lot less concerned about and something I have done myself), overall it becomes clear that there is a bit of a mob mentality that comes with the territory here.  They "own" the streets at night, are young, immature, and bold (as most young men are).  It's not a good combination.

Put it this way...I would be cautious around ANY bands of 16-22 year old male youths roaming around wrecklessly on scooters late at night on any given weeknight, but even more cautious around black young men than say Asian young men - stats don't lie and WE ALL KNOW THEM.  Where are some of their mommas?  Now with the THIRTEEN year old who was recently shot in Chicago, who was riding around with a 21 year old shooting at cars at 2:30 AM, NO THANK YOU.  This is the same general type of crowd.  NO THANK YOU.

If one of the purposes of the scooters, is as we say, to provide an alternative transportation (for instance, to get from one end of downtown to the other for lunch in a timely manner, thereby extending the area of lunch/errand opportunities to downtown workers and tourists), what is the purpose of the scooters at 10 PM on a Tuesday night?

We simply do not have much foot traffic at night (or day), but I don't consider 19 year old men riding around aimlessly in groups at night to be "foot traffic", and I have had enough of my own incidents in my own life where I wouldn't be personally interested in being one of the only people walking around in that area at night (say from one bar to my car a couple blocks away) with this demographic roving around and hardly any police presence.  It's an invitation to an incident.

Thus, at the end of the day, what we view as a great program on this site (ignoring the large stream of complaints by the general public which we automatically label as racist and without merit) is seemingly being viewed by the public as an actual "deterrent" to coming downtown.  I'd rather see a DIVERSE mix of 25-50 year olds walking around downtown going to BUSINESSES, not 16-22 year olds with no interest going to bars/restaurants roaming around wrecklessly on scooters.  But sure, get what you want and don't be surprised by what you see as a result.

Just say you're scared of black men and move on lol I've walked the streets of downtown at night with these young people riding scooters and haven't had a single issue. Yeah they're loud and reckless like any group of teenagers are but at the end of the day they're just kids trying to have fun. No different than the mobs of white boys that "terrorize" the dirt roads around my parents house in Clay County on their 4-wheelers and dirt bikes. And maybe your tunnel vision has you so focused on the 16-24 year old black men demographic but the nighttime scooter riders are a pretty diverse crowd from all ages and walks of life but I guess the black men just stand out to you due to your internal feelings towards them

If there are mobs of 16 year old white boys "terrorizing" rural areas, then yes, same thing.  I would flat avoid those areas if I could.  I heard about the dirt bike mob recently and saw on the news how a group of them literally kicked in the bumbers of a car with an older couple in it, and they were literally terrorized.  Same thing.

Groups of unsupervised young men...not good.

Downtown they happen to be black, and yes, the crime stats are stacked against them and many wise people will simply avoid downtown at night as a result if they come and see (or even just hear about) what's going on.  Simple as that.  Most will say nothing; they'll just find another excuse to avoid downtown.

Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

But I appreciate everyone's straw man.  You guys can feel free to virtue signal and say a bunch of woke things now that I've presented the opportunity.  When ONE unfortunate incident happens where someone gets hurt, whether hit by a car, or via an actual assault/crime, and it is well-publicized, you can just blame me I guess for expressing my own thoughts and views, or you can blame the shitty program that is the scooter program.

By the way, in wonderful woke urban utopia of San Francisco where these were first introduced years ago while I happened to be living there, they were not appreciated AT ALL by the general public (or the city, since at the time it was Chinese and other SV startups that literally just dumped the scooters on the streets without any permits or notice to the city).  To this day many people find them obnoxious as hell as they clog up already crowded sidewalks, litter the streets (and end up in the water, frequently, as trash), and present just more hazards to cars/buses.  NOBODY likes them except for the homeless weirdos and the inner city youths who happen to seem to have no adult supervision.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on April 19, 2021, 01:12:40 PM
Just spent the weekend in downtown Orlando... scooters are supposed to be used on the street. Most were being used on the sidewalks. My wife was hit once and we were frequently forced off the sidewalks by gangs of scooters on the sidewalks. I cannot prove but I suspect most scooters were used by juveniles... the speed of the scooters is fine for street use.... The speed of the scooters on the sidewalks is excessive...
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2021, 01:17:27 PM
^Yes, they should be used on the street. I'm not sure of Orlando's enforcement but they are popular there as well.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2021, 01:24:47 PM
Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

I was once in that age range and stereotyped similarly. The kids don't bother me because I was one of them once. I'd probably feel more culturally out of place at the river jam concerts that last two weeks. From what I can tell, at least from my experience, is that the scooters seem to be a cheap form of entertainment in a downtown and urban core that is pretty void of things to do. This is the case in some other cities I've witnessed them in as well. Since the urban core is majority minority, it won't look like the parking lot of SJTC, a suburban Walmart on a week night. Until there is a proven link between crime, this certain demographic and time of crime, I'd be wary of creating legislation based off perception.  That path tends to do more harm than good. Especially for minorities.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 19, 2021, 01:29:49 PM
^It seems the solution is to keep the scooters in dedicated "bike" lanes.  Have any of these been added Downtown yet?  Seems that would be even more appropriate than having them added to suburban thoroughfares where density is less and speeds are higher.  If they are converting some streets to two-way at some point, are bike lanes going to be incorporated in those changes?

Bike-like scooters and bikes should not travel with pedestrians or vehicles... just common sense.  Dedicated lanes would also make enforcement easier as there would be clear boundaries for their operation.

Maybe there should also be limits on hours of operation, not just geographic ones.  Are they nosier than cars?  What do Downtown residents think of them as their opinions should count more like any resident watching out for their neighborhood?  Are there any legitimate reasons they should be used after, say, midnight or before, say, 6 AM?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2021, 01:36:35 PM
Bike lanes, transit lanes for U2C, buses, etc. would be great. Better balancing our streets are a definite need. However, it will be years before that happens at the snail's pace that public projects move locally. I don't see a need to limit hours though. Downtown isn't a gated residential subdivision. There's nothing that has taken place to suggest limiting the hours and use of mobility options or businesses like restaurants and bars.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on April 19, 2021, 02:59:55 PM
^I believe those prejudices have a lot to do with why the Landing is gone as well. Some of us need to have a newsflash and get more familiar with Jax's actual demographics today and the trends of where things are headed. It's becoming a more racially and culturally diverse city, where minorities will soon become the majority....(this may have already happened). So if people are envisioning downtown's future as a homogeneous space like St. Johns County or the Beaches, they may as well move to those places because that's not where things are headed.


That's definitely the case. For folks who aren't on Twitter, we got a reply from a person who said he was happy taking his wife and kids to the New Found Glory concert because he had been scared to take them to the Landing. Unfortunately many of our decision makers and bigwigs seem to be of the opinion that what makes them most comfortable, eg pop punk concerts instead of mostly minority owned businesses, is what everyone wants Downtown.

Re the scooters, if they scare pearl clutchers like Simms, they're doing something right. Keep it up, 16-24 year olds.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 19, 2021, 06:07:22 PM
What's the chance of activating the food truck space across from Lenny's Lawn to accommodate the scooter crowd at night?
"The Court Urban Food Park"
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on April 19, 2021, 07:04:33 PM
Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 19, 2021, 07:11:45 PM
Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

I was once in that age range and stereotyped similarly. The kids don't bother me because I was one of them once. I'd probably feel more culturally out of place at the river jam concerts that last two weeks. From what I can tell, at least from my experience, is that the scooters seem to be a cheap form of entertainment in a downtown and urban core that is pretty void of things to do. This is the case in some other cities I've witnessed them in as well. Since the urban core is majority minority, it won't look like the parking lot of SJTC, a suburban Walmart on a week night. Until there is a proven link between crime, this certain demographic and time of crime, I'd be wary of creating legislation based off perception.  That path tends to do more harm than good. Especially for minorities.

What were you doing as a teen or young adult?  I'm just guessing based on your career that you studied hard, went to college, had supportive family members, and worked most or all of your adult life.  We all get into a little bit of trouble or rebel, but with supportive, relatively structured family we get in line and become productive adults.  Many productive adults had curfews in their youth, and if they didn't go to college, they started working at 18 or joined the military.

Many unproductive adults come from broken homes where curfews were never enforced and supervision was lacking.  Yes I'm judging based on what I know, but I'm putting many of the nighttime scooter riders into the category of future unproductive adults and I just can't really believe that your mom or dad or other family member would have allowed you to ride around downtown with other young men at 10 or 11 at night on a school night.

What about enforcing a curfew for minors?  I'm tired of the bullshit and the lies, the lying to ourselves to avoid these kind of conversations.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 19, 2021, 07:13:16 PM
Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

I love being called names and pearl clutcher is a good one.  ;)

I'm a grown ass man who can't get my feelings hurt too easily any more.  I don't really care what people think of me - usually when we get to name calling they've lost whatever argument is being had.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on April 19, 2021, 08:11:08 PM
Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

I love being called names and pearl clutcher is a good one.  ;)

I'm a grown ass man who can't get my feelings hurt too easily any more.  I don't really care what people think of me - usually when we get to name calling they've lost whatever argument is being had.

I get that... I spent an inordinate amount of time arguing on this forum with a serial name caller... it’s just not necessary.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 19, 2021, 08:24:14 PM
Was there a purpose to these scooters, beside providing late night entertainment for Jax's wayward youth? Did someone imagine young/old professionals would use them to get around town 9-5?  Or was it "lets put them into the marketplace and see what happens?" 
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2021, 08:56:48 PM
Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

I was once in that age range and stereotyped similarly. The kids don't bother me because I was one of them once. I'd probably feel more culturally out of place at the river jam concerts that last two weeks. From what I can tell, at least from my experience, is that the scooters seem to be a cheap form of entertainment in a downtown and urban core that is pretty void of things to do. This is the case in some other cities I've witnessed them in as well. Since the urban core is majority minority, it won't look like the parking lot of SJTC, a suburban Walmart on a week night. Until there is a proven link between crime, this certain demographic and time of crime, I'd be wary of creating legislation based off perception.  That path tends to do more harm than good. Especially for minorities.

What were you doing as a teen or young adult?  I'm just guessing based on your career that you studied hard, went to college, had supportive family members, and worked most or all of your adult life.  We all get into a little bit of trouble or rebel, but with supportive, relatively structured family we get in line and become productive adults.  Many productive adults had curfews in their youth, and if they didn't go to college, they started working at 18 or joined the military.

Many unproductive adults come from broken homes where curfews were never enforced and supervision was lacking.  Yes I'm judging based on what I know, but I'm putting many of the nighttime scooter riders into the category of future unproductive adults and I just can't really believe that your mom or dad or other family member would have allowed you to ride around downtown with other young men at 10 or 11 at night on a school night.

What about enforcing a curfew for minors?  I'm tired of the bullshit and the lies, the lying to ourselves to avoid these kind of conversations.

I'd say I was an average immature teenage boy who did average teenage boy things. I grew up in the hood (my town was very segregated). Whenever two or three Black males like me would get together, we'd be stereotyped. I can't tell you the number of times I was pulled over by police for nothing or followed around stores like I was going to take something. Anyway, back home, if we had something like scooters, I can image that me and my friends would have been riding around on them. We didn't, so me and my other teenage co-workers did stupid stuff after we'd get off work from Winn-Dixie, like drive to hotels down the street, knock on random doors and run. Our shift would be over around 11pm or midnight, so that would have put us in the same time frame. As far as our parents knew.....we were working late or spending the night at a friend's house. While doing stupid teenage things, we weren't out robbing anyone. Anyway, after blowing my first year of community college, I transferred to FAMU in Tallahassee. There, I did just enough to pass classes. I got more serious with school my last year or two.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 19, 2021, 09:21:31 PM
Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

I love being called names and pearl clutcher is a good one.  ;)

I'm a grown ass man who can't get my feelings hurt too easily any more.  I don't really care what people think of me - usually when we get to name calling they've lost whatever argument is being had.

I get that... I spent an inordinate amount of time arguing on this forum with a serial name caller... it’s just not necessary.

True that...

Was there a purpose to these scooters, beside providing late night entertainment for Jax's wayward youth? Did someone imagine young/old professionals would use them to get around town 9-5?  Or was it "lets put them into the marketplace and see what happens?" 

The "public" scooter craze started in SF probably ~5 years ago.  It got off to a rocky start there and never pleased the masses - in fact, I would argue it made a lot of people insanely mad and it got tons of negative press right from the start ("Private" scooters people buy to commute that can cost thousands of dollars also still piss people off - namely ALL the people who don't ride a scooter).  The same companies started dumping in other cities and I'm pretty sure every city the scooter program has been started in ever since has seen much the same results - the same groups of people using them and the same frustrations by the general masses.

Jax probably decided to go forward with the program "because every other big city has a scooter program and Jax just isn't in the 'club' of the elite cities without the same program".  People are sheeple and cities are run by people.  Go figure.

A better program would have been a bike program - the same people that use the scooters now at night can also use the bikes, but the bikes in other cities get a lot more daytime, tourist, and general masses use and don't seem to get the same kind of use we are complaining about now at night.  Nobody is discriminated against with the bikes, but for whatever reason, they don't follow the same use patterns (that I have seen) and don't have the same level of complaints.

Perhaps the barrier to entry is cost - some of the bike programs require a heftier fee or a monthly or annual commitment, but even the bike program in SF was something like $80/annually, so it's not an insane amount of money.  Perhaps they don't get the same nighttime use because a lot of people using the scooters now already have bikes and so that is "boring" to them.  Not sure, just a hunch.

Doesn't make them racist, it actually makes them wise.  Nobody has yet answered my question about the purposes of the scooters at 10 or 11 at night (or later).  If they can geofence these things they can have them turn off automatically at a certain hour at night and that would solve a lot of perception problems, and perhaps future crime problems.

I was once in that age range and stereotyped similarly. The kids don't bother me because I was one of them once. I'd probably feel more culturally out of place at the river jam concerts that last two weeks. From what I can tell, at least from my experience, is that the scooters seem to be a cheap form of entertainment in a downtown and urban core that is pretty void of things to do. This is the case in some other cities I've witnessed them in as well. Since the urban core is majority minority, it won't look like the parking lot of SJTC, a suburban Walmart on a week night. Until there is a proven link between crime, this certain demographic and time of crime, I'd be wary of creating legislation based off perception.  That path tends to do more harm than good. Especially for minorities.

What were you doing as a teen or young adult?  I'm just guessing based on your career that you studied hard, went to college, had supportive family members, and worked most or all of your adult life.  We all get into a little bit of trouble or rebel, but with supportive, relatively structured family we get in line and become productive adults.  Many productive adults had curfews in their youth, and if they didn't go to college, they started working at 18 or joined the military.

Many unproductive adults come from broken homes where curfews were never enforced and supervision was lacking.  Yes I'm judging based on what I know, but I'm putting many of the nighttime scooter riders into the category of future unproductive adults and I just can't really believe that your mom or dad or other family member would have allowed you to ride around downtown with other young men at 10 or 11 at night on a school night.

What about enforcing a curfew for minors?  I'm tired of the bullshit and the lies, the lying to ourselves to avoid these kind of conversations.

I'd say I was an average immature teenage boy who did average teenage boy things. I grew up in the hood (my town was very segregated). Whenever two or three Black males like me would get together, we'd be stereotyped. I can't tell you the number of times I was pulled over by police for nothing or followed around stores like I was going to take something. Anyway, back home, if we had something like scooters, I can image that me and my friends would have been riding around on them. We didn't, so me and my other teenage co-workers did stupid stuff after we'd get off work from Winn-Dixie, like drive to hotels down the street, knock on random doors and run. Our shift would be over around 11pm or midnight, so that would have put us in the same time frame. As far as our parents knew.....we were working late or spending the night at a friend's house. While doing stupid teenage things, we weren't out robbing anyone. Anyway, after blowing my first year of community college, I transferred to FAMU in Tallahassee. There, I did just enough to pass classes. I got more serious with school my last year or two.

Ok, well I grew up with a bit more structure and most of those I grew up with the same and so I have that to go by as a recipe for general success in life.  I have no shame in how I grew up - I grew up well.  I would want the same for EVERY child, but it's a crap shoot unfortunately nowadays and instead of addressing it (the problems that lead to men taking to the streets at an early age and committing crime), we are ok'ing it.

You may have turned up well, but many kids in your situation or with less structure/more brokenness don't come out ok and I don't blame the kids, but I do blame a society that says it's all ok and looks the other way.

The fact of the matter is we should not have 16-17, or even really 18 year olds with no structure just roaming around downtown late at night with other men, some of whom may be in their 20s, some of whom may be gang members, without supervision.  Do we really need more examples like Adam Toledo in Chicago for proof?!?

My parents always said "nothing good happens after midnight".  For young young people, I'd say that's true once the sun goes down.  Yes, I snuck out at night on weekends and went to friends' or a park in the neighborhood.  That's going to happen.  But I knew the rules and I paid the consequences when caught, and it was not a weeknight ordeal.  My parents required as close to all A's as possible and enforced a future wide open for success if I worked hard in school as a teen.  That is not conducive to absenteeism that allows bands of young men alone with themselves at 11 on a Tuesday somewhere in the city that probably isn't even their neighborhood.  Why should we be ok with that?  It's not how I would raise my kids, would you?  Society pays the consequences, AS DO THE KIDS eventually.

And it is only common sense and self-preservation for people to factor in crime stats when deciding what to do about coming downtown at night under certain circumstances, this precise circumstance notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2021, 10:28:05 PM
Ok, well I grew up with a bit more structure and most of those I grew up with the same and so I have that to go by as a recipe for general success in life.  I have no shame in how I grew up - I grew up well.  I would want the same for EVERY child, but it's a crap shoot unfortunately nowadays and instead of addressing it (the problems that lead to men taking to the streets at an early age and committing crime), we are ok'ing it.

You may have turned up well, but many kids in your situation or with less structure/more brokenness don't come out ok and I don't blame the kids, but I do blame a society that says it's all ok and looks the other way.

You don't have to tell me. I'm one of three brothers and the only sibling that has never been arrested. I have childhood friends that are in prison for life and a host of others and family who have done prison time. Good people with good hearts, just got caught up. We are largely products of our environments and the laws, stereotypes and policies of this society have created the conditions of disenfranchised communities we see today. It will take decades to repair what was systemically broken apart. My personal experience, history, social and cultural understanding has led me into the planning field, where I can use my access to quietly change the systemic barriers that continue limit minorities disproportionally. It also has the added benefit of being a Black male role model for the younger generation.

Quote
The fact of the matter is we should not have 16-17, or even really 18 year olds with no structure just roaming around downtown late at night with other men, some of whom may be in their 20s, some of whom may be gang members, without supervision.  Do we really need more examples like Adam Toledo in Chicago for proof?!?

I don't know the ages of whoever you saw, their family structure or anything like that but I will say that I'd rather them have fun with their friends riding around on e-scooters than selling dope on the corner. Again, I'll also stress that I've seen more than just Black males riding e-scooters in downtown at night.

Quote
My parents always said "nothing good happens after midnight".  For young young people, I'd say that's true once the sun goes down.  Yes, I snuck out at night on weekends and went to friends' or a park in the neighborhood.  That's going to happen.  But I knew the rules and I paid the consequences when caught, and it was not a weeknight ordeal.  My parents required as close to all A's as possible and enforced a future wide open for success if I worked hard in school as a teen.  That is not conducive to absenteeism that allows bands of young men alone with themselves at 11 on a Tuesday somewhere in the city that probably isn't even their neighborhood.  Why should we be ok with that?  It's not how I would raise my kids, would you?  Society pays the consequences, AS DO THE KIDS eventually.

You grew up lucky and privileged. You should be proud. Not everyone is so fortunate. The best thing we can do is work to change our most distressed environments, invest in them and kids at an early age.

Quote
And it is only common sense and self-preservation for people to factor in crime stats when deciding what to do about coming downtown at night under certain circumstances, this precise circumstance notwithstanding.

No doubt, downtown has a host of problems. Tearing down the Landing, partially because of suburbanites being scared because it was frequented by Black and Brown people on a consistent basis was one of them. Knowing the history of this city, eliminating fishing (most people can't afford boats) in downtown was probably mixed in the same bit of perspective. Nevertheless, unless we can prove that these kids are committing crimes downtown, I would not worry too much about them.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: itsfantastic1 on April 19, 2021, 10:30:31 PM
Simms, I don't know you but I'm honestly astounded that somehow you see kids on scooters in Downtown Jacksonville (which have to be rented) and feel the need to mention your anecdotal experiences with riders of a certain skin color and then expound about crime statistics, gangs, the moral failings of society and how your upbringing is the ONLY and RIGHT way to raise a child.

What should've been a discussion of how to educate people using the scooters to stay safe turned into some weird-ass lecture from you that offered nothing of benefit to this discussion.

I look forward to you producing evidence of e-scooter based gang activity or a great thesis on how the hours children spend out past 6 pm lead to the fall of western civilization. However, if there is one gamechanger for crime in Jacksonville; it's definitely in stopping teenagers from using scooters past bedtime.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on April 20, 2021, 12:33:06 PM
Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

If you don't like that, I'm glad you didn't see typed before replacing it with pearl clutchers.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on April 20, 2021, 02:23:05 PM
Pearl clutchers??  Really?  No need for that Taca...

If you don't like that, I'm glad you didn't see typed before replacing it with pearl clutchers.

I appreciate the new blurry line...
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on April 23, 2021, 08:57:01 AM
Was there a purpose to these scooters, beside providing late night entertainment for Jax's wayward youth? Did someone imagine young/old professionals would use them to get around town 9-5?  Or was it "lets put them into the marketplace and see what happens?"

Until recently, these scooters were ( baselessly ) praised over being a solution to the last mile problem.

I think now that the scooter companies financials have shown it's anything but niche..... not sure they have a purpose.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2021, 10:47:00 AM
^Are you saying the scooter companies are losing money?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: WAJAS on April 23, 2021, 04:57:29 PM
Was there a purpose to these scooters, beside providing late night entertainment for Jax's wayward youth? Did someone imagine young/old professionals would use them to get around town 9-5?  Or was it "lets put them into the marketplace and see what happens?"

Until recently, these scooters were ( baselessly ) praised over being a solution to the last mile problem.

I think now that the scooter companies financials have shown it's anything but niche..... not sure they have a purpose.
Are you saying they aren't a solution to the first/last mile problem? How are they not? I have used them to solve that problem in Miami and San Diego for instance.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 23, 2021, 07:55:33 PM
^Are you saying the scooter companies are losing money?

Lime is now not only profitable but cash-flow positive.

They don't even really need VC anymore.

That said, I'd be curious to know how the scooter companies are doing in Jax.

It was a strange decision from the city to partner with four different scooter companies, all with their own scooters, apps, and ecosystems. Not convenient for riders, having to install multiple apps depending on which scooter happens to be available. Not convenient for the businesses, who have to compete with three other competitors in the same radius.

Just based on the usage I see, I have no doubt that one or maybe two scooter companies could do sustainable business in downtown Jax. Not sure any of them can be profitable long-term sharing the area with three other rivals. 

Interesting side effect of the scooters I've noticed is that are riders are starting to actually use the barren fields at the Landing and Ford on Bay as "parks." There are corrals adjacent to both "parks," and I see a lot of people parking and then hanging out, playing football or soccer, reading a book, etc.

Broken record, but was leaving the office and driving down Bay Street around 5:00, and there were probably 30 scooters out and about between the Landing and Intuition. Everyone smiling. Everyone having fun. Riders from all walks of life. Such a stark difference from the desolate, Mad Max-like stretch that's been post-pandemic/pre-scooter.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2021, 09:54:54 PM
I'm Downtown right now. People of all ages, race, and sex are riding scooters. DT is still sleepy but it would be a ghost town without them.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on April 24, 2021, 02:59:01 PM
You can both be ok with diversity and have a bit of skepticism about the late night scooter crowd at the same time.  Heck, if I were a single black lady walking the streets of downtown Jax at night, I'd be just as cautious and perhaps a bit nervous as anyone else (probably moreso to be honest), because we all know crime stats, we all have spidey senses, and we all know it's probably a lack of parenting and a few other things that lead to throngs of young black men, plenty of them obviously older teens, to be riding around on the scooters late at night on any given weeknight. 

How can you possibly know how you'd look at the world if you were black (or a woman)?

Just because you see some things a particular way doesn't mean that you understand how other people see things. I hate to say this - it's a bit trite - but you really need to check your privilege.

Edit: and reading more of your comments, you seem to feel you can tell the background, education, etc of any black kid you see on a scooter. How do you know which of these kids is in college? How do you know what their home life is like? Have you stopped to consider that maybe you don't know as much as you think you do?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 26, 2021, 09:09:37 AM
Can someone link a map that shows the range of the scooters as an overlay of the CBD?  Can you take one to the stadium/Daily's Place?
I don't think many people who blog here actually live downtown (many do WORK downtown). I certainly think the scooters provide a great opportunity for the people who live downtown to see events downtown without having to drive.   Like the stadium, Florida Theater, Symphony Hall/TUPAC, ...... Would be great to hop on a scooter at the Berkman, ride down to Symphony Hall, then scoot back to Berkman (or your favorite watering hole) after the concert/show......
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: fieldafm on April 26, 2021, 09:17:21 AM
Can someone link a map that shows the range of the scooters as an overlay of the CBD?  Can you take one to the stadium/Daily's Place?
I don't think many people who blog here actually live downtown (many do WORK downtown). I certainly think the scooters provide a great opportunity for the people who live downtown to see events downtown without having to drive.   Like the stadium, Florida Theater, Symphony Hall/TUPAC, ...... Would be great to hop on a scooter at the Berkman, ride down to Symphony Hall, then scoot back to Berkman (or your favorite watering hole) after the concert/show......

If you've ridden the scooters, the app(s) show the boundary.

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/330076_standard.jpeg)
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 26, 2021, 10:03:44 AM
It's got some weird quirks. I took Spin yesterday and it cut off on Coastline Drive, right in front of Hyatt. Couldn't get it going again until getting back to Newnan Street.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on April 26, 2021, 10:22:42 AM
It's got some weird quirks. I took Spin yesterday and it cut off on Coastline Drive, right in front of Hyatt. Couldn't get it going again until getting back to Newnan Street.

Somebody posted that same issue in our Facebook group. Looks like they've got some kinks to hammer out.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Alex Sifakis on April 26, 2021, 10:29:12 AM
I have found the Helbiz scooters to be the best. I have had a couple issues with Spin.

The scooters are an amazing thing for downtown activation and development.  I have taken groups of Jacksonville leaders around downtown on the scooters (including city council people, past mayors, out of town developers, restaurateurs) and they have all 1) been blown away at the amount happening/about to happen downtown, and 2) loved scooters and the ability to get around so easily.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: fieldafm on April 26, 2021, 11:31:21 AM
It's got some weird quirks. I took Spin yesterday and it cut off on Coastline Drive, right in front of Hyatt. Couldn't get it going again until getting back to Newnan Street.

There are some zones where the scooters are not able to work... specifically areas where the building owner has requested to have scooter-free sidewalks. 
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 26, 2021, 11:35:42 AM
From the map posted, looks like it doesn't work in Prime Osborne's parking lot.  If you attend an event there, why wouldn't that be activated?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: fieldafm on April 26, 2021, 11:49:39 AM
From the map posted, looks like it doesn't work in Prime Osborne's parking lot.  If you attend an event there, why wouldn't that be activated?

It works where there is a docking station in front of the Prime Osborne and adjacent to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Authority. Given that the Prime Osborne parking lot is gated and locked, I don't think having scooters behind a locked gate does much for system-wide availability issues.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 26, 2021, 11:52:44 AM
From the map posted, looks like it doesn't work in Prime Osborne's parking lot.  If you attend an event there, why wouldn't that be activated?

It works where there is a docking station in front of the Prime Osborne and adjacent to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Authority. Given that the Prime Osborne parking lot is gated and locked, I don't think having scooters behind a locked gate does much for system-wide availability issues.

I am figuring its not locked and gated during events.... and couldn't tell from the map that there was a docking station on the front side.  No need for the snide editorializing of an innocent question.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: fieldafm on April 26, 2021, 11:56:07 AM
From the map posted, looks like it doesn't work in Prime Osborne's parking lot.  If you attend an event there, why wouldn't that be activated?

It works where there is a docking station in front of the Prime Osborne and adjacent to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Authority. Given that the Prime Osborne parking lot is gated and locked, I don't think having scooters behind a locked gate does much for system-wide availability issues.

I am figuring its not locked and gated during events.... and couldn't tell from the map that there was a docking station on the front side.  No need for the snide editorializing of an innocent question.

Its unfortunate that you feel that my factual answer to your question was snide.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Lunican on April 26, 2021, 11:56:22 AM
It's got some weird quirks. I took Spin yesterday and it cut off on Coastline Drive, right in front of Hyatt. Couldn't get it going again until getting back to Newnan Street.

If that map is an accurate GPS boundary provided to the scooter companies, they should modify it slightly.

The boundary for the riverwalk should be moved into the river a bit so if you aren't riding right on the edge the entire way. Same with Bay Street. Any fluctuation in GPS location will turn the scooter off.

Did they exclude the riverwalk in front of the Hyatt on purpose?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 26, 2021, 12:06:09 PM
From the map posted, looks like it doesn't work in Prime Osborne's parking lot.  If you attend an event there, why wouldn't that be activated?

It works where there is a docking station in front of the Prime Osborne and adjacent to the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Authority. Given that the Prime Osborne parking lot is gated and locked, I don't think having scooters behind a locked gate does much for system-wide availability issues.

I am figuring its not locked and gated during events.... and couldn't tell from the map that there was a docking station on the front side.  No need for the snide editorializing of an innocent question.

Its unfortunate that you feel that my factual answer to your question was snide.

This is the gratuitous comment I am referring to.  It basically says "duh, dummy.":

Quote
I don't think having scooters behind a locked gate does much for system-wide availability issues.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 26, 2021, 12:09:12 PM
It's got some weird quirks. I took Spin yesterday and it cut off on Coastline Drive, right in front of Hyatt. Couldn't get it going again until getting back to Newnan Street.

If that map is an accurate GPS boundary provided to the scooter companies, they should modify it slightly.

The boundary for the riverwalk should be moved into the river a bit so if you aren't riding right on the edge the entire way. Same with Bay Street. Any fluctuation in GPS location will turn the scooter off.

Did they exclude the riverwalk in front of the Hyatt on purpose?

I was riding in the street since DT was a ghost town on Sunday. It's a much smoother ride than the riverwalk. I'm not sure of the other scooters but Spin definitely doesn't work in front of the Hyatt. Despite going east of Newnan, I was moving faster than JTA's proposed U2C, so I coasted halfway through the Hyatt block before noticing I was outside the boundary.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Charles Hunter on April 26, 2021, 12:54:02 PM
From the map posted, looks like it doesn't work in Prime Osborne's parking lot.  If you attend an event there, why wouldn't that be activated?

I am curious as to why there would be a need for the scooters to work in the Prime Osborne parking lot?  If you scootered there from downtown, you don't need to go into the parking lot to enter the building.  If you drove to the PO, you wouldn't need to ride a scooter from your car to the door.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 26, 2021, 01:23:33 PM
From the map posted, looks like it doesn't work in Prime Osborne's parking lot.  If you attend an event there, why wouldn't that be activated?

I am curious as to why there would be a need for the scooters to work in the Prime Osborne parking lot?  If you scootered there from downtown, you don't need to go into the parking lot to enter the building.  If you drove to the PO, you wouldn't need to ride a scooter from your car to the door.

I was only thinking if you came from Downtown (maybe living there or coming from an office or hotel) to an event at the Convention Center, you would need to have a place to "park" your scooter during the event.  It seemed to me the parking lot would be that spot.  That's all.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on April 26, 2021, 02:14:37 PM
Thanks for posting the map. I'll admit I really want to see them going from the residential areas to TUPAC, so folks can "Scoot on down to Symphony Hall". If marketed properly this could have a positive impact on all things residential/commercial/entertainment in the CBD.

How many total scooters in circulation?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on April 26, 2021, 02:42:26 PM
I don't know how many are in circulation, but they are having a positive impact already in my opinion. They've added life to a place that has traditionally been dead during nights and the weekends. They are also attracting a very diverse cross section of the local population to downtown's streets as well.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on April 27, 2021, 11:21:37 PM
I left work around 9 tonight and saw only 1 scooter going and only a couple laying around.  I wonder if there was a crackdown recently.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: simms3 on June 05, 2021, 09:31:22 AM
I previously referenced in this thread the scooters in the Bay Area frequently ending up as trash in a body of water, such as Lake Merritt in downtown Oakland.  Well it would appear we are already at that same point in Jacksonville!  That didn't take long.

https://youtu.be/-KGbiOnHkWY

And now there is a midnight curfew on the scooters, but will it be enough?

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/mobile/article/news/local/scooter-curfew-downtown-jacksonville/77-d1f744db-4059-4135-aa14-c8a2be786966

Personally I think the scooters are just not a good idea.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 05, 2021, 10:51:38 AM
I previously referenced in this thread the scooters in the Bay Area frequently ending up as trash in a body of water, such as Lake Merritt in downtown Oakland.  Well it would appear we are already at that same point in Jacksonville!  That didn't take long.

https://youtu.be/-KGbiOnHkWY

And now there is a midnight curfew on the scooters, but will it be enough?

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/mobile/article/news/local/scooter-curfew-downtown-jacksonville/77-d1f744db-4059-4135-aa14-c8a2be786966

Personally I think the scooters are just not a good idea.

I'm behind on coffee, but honest question here:

If a couple of idiot teens - probably drunk or high - toss a scooter into the river as a social media stunt, how is that an indictment of the scooter, rather than an indictment of said idiot teens? Don't know if I buy the assertion that the mere presence of a scooter in downtown Jacksonville led to the youths tossing it overboard.

Also, I guess time is subjective, but when you say "that didn't take long," we're now in month four of the scooter share program. Which would put us at about three scooters in the drink annually, if the pattern holds. That's honestly probably fewer scooters in the river than I would have guessed when this thing started.

Personally, I hope to see them stay.

If and when we actually do start to see development between Met Park and the Landing, micro-mobility is only going to be become more important. Particularly when the only alternative form of public transportation up and down Bay Street is speculative clowncar.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Zac T on June 05, 2021, 12:26:00 PM
I think many people forget that a lively downtown will attract many groups of people, including some troublemakers, but that's what comes with living in an urban environment. We should deal with them without taking away things that benefit the populace as a whole. I never see anyone suggest banning cars despite the daily crashes, deaths, and DUI's that come with them but as soon as there's an alternative to driving then people critique it to the max. Honestly, we should be talking about prohibiting cars in the core rather than scooters.

My apartment downtown doesn't have parking which is okay because I can take the Skyway or use the scooters as a last-mile option. The Skyway is most likely going away so the scooters are the only other option besides taking the risk of someone stealing my bike again (we really need secure bike parking downtown) or walking. I don't mind walking but many people do, especially this time of year. If they take the scooters away without having other viable transportation options* then it's just another excuse for people not to live downtown.

*clown cars are not a legitimate transportation solution
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on June 05, 2021, 01:54:14 PM
I think many people forget that a lively downtown will attract many groups of people, including some troublemakers, but that's what comes with living in an urban environment. We should deal with them without taking away things that benefit the populace as a whole. I never see anyone suggest banning cars despite the daily crashes, deaths, and DUI's that come with them but as soon as there's an alternative to driving then people critique it to the max. Honestly, we should be talking about prohibiting cars in the core rather than scooters.

My apartment downtown doesn't have parking which is okay because I can take the Skyway or use the scooters as a last-mile option. The Skyway is most likely going away so the scooters are the only other option besides taking the risk of someone stealing my bike again (we really need secure bike parking downtown) or walking. I don't mind walking but many people do, especially this time of year. If they take the scooters away without having other viable transportation options* then it's just another excuse for people not to live downtown.

*clown cars are not a legitimate transportation solution

Excellent point. Last week Ennis and I went on a tour of properties being redeveloped in Downtown and we used the scooters. They were great for that purpose. If we had those when I was a teenager, my friends and I would have been down there all the time. If that's a problem for some, so be it. Not everyone is ever going to be happy with anything.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 08:52:35 AM
I'm in Atlanta at the moment. Yesterday, while catching MARTA back to my airport hotel, I noticed a kid taking one of their scooters from downtown to wherever he was headed on the train. Moral of the story is that in any situation, you'll find a few that won't go by the rules. However, it doesn't mean the availability of micromobility for a larger cross section of society is a bad thing.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: JeffreyS on June 06, 2021, 09:21:50 AM
St. Louis seems to love the eScooters downtown. People using them near the arch, the Cardinals game, hotels and shops. It is hard to believe how many of them are available throughout downtown.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 09:58:29 AM
Also, reading that article featuring quotes by Rory Diamond, I'd question the demographic make up of the complainers. I get the impression that most of the complaints likely come from a segment of the population that don't use them.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on June 06, 2021, 01:17:56 PM
Also, reading that article featuring quotes by Rory Diamond, I'd question the demographic make up of the complainers. I get the impression that most of the complaints likely come from a segment of the population that don't use them.

Ding ding ding.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 06, 2021, 02:14:49 PM
Also, reading that article featuring quotes by Rory Diamond, I'd question the demographic make up of the complainers. I get the impression that most of the complaints likely come from a segment of the population that don't use them.

and don't like the demographic of those using them.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 06, 2021, 02:58:41 PM
Well… there is also a “demographic “ that thinks those riding scooters with blatant disregard of the traffic laws are endangering themselves and others. Wrong way down the streets… disobey traffic lights… riding down sidewalks to name the obvious…

So there is that…
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 03:40:27 PM
Nothing wrong with traffic enforcement. There's laws already on the books for that.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 06, 2021, 03:45:23 PM
Nothing wrong with traffic enforcement. There's laws already on the books for that.

No doubt… but I saw what I saw… and I doubt the others who witnessed traffic law abuse were lying or exaggerating. As a parent if my teen was doing what I witnessed there would be issues…
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 04:12:51 PM
I suspect that not all complaints are traffic law abuse related. Yet, from a traffic perspective, I see people breaking traffic laws in cars on a regular basis in downtown. Running red lights, excessive speeding, going the wrong way on one-way streets, not stopping for pedestrians in marked crosswalks, etc. A good number of zero setback historic buildings have been damaged by drivers who lost control. A big visible indicator of a need for speed management and enforcement.  However, we're not talking about placing curfews on automobile use or even pushing for better enforcement of a more significant safety issue. This is the perspective I'm coming from based on what I read in that article. Be equal in addressing safety issues on the road.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 06, 2021, 04:40:45 PM
You can suspect all you like Ennis. I assume you and others are much more lenient parents than I. That’s your business. Running the wrong way on a scooter getting hit by an unsuspecting car driver… I know who will be hurt and who’s walking away.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 04:48:02 PM
Enforce the law, regardless of ages and vehicle types. That has nothing to do with parenting. Let's not confuse the two. Just a random question though. How often have you used the scooters?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: marcuscnelson on June 06, 2021, 04:59:59 PM
Not BridgeTroll, but I've had two opportunities to use the scooters in the last two weeks.

Week before last I was downtown for a meeting, and rode a Link scooter from the Jessie to Central Station to livestream a ride on the Skyway for some friends. A man took the time to point out that apparently Link's scooters are the fastest with the best battery life, I don't know if that's true or not. Not sure if it was just Central Station, but it seems really weird to me that there wasn't (at least from what I could tell) a scooter drop point at the station. It could have been an error on my part, but I don't know.

Just yesterday I was downtown to participate in something, and rode another Link scooter from the Florida Theatre to the Main Library. For whatever reason, the app got stuck on some step about checking firmware? I was about to cancel it, and I actually thought I did, but then the scooter decided to work at that point. The actual experience of riding the scooter is pretty nice in my opinion, save for some occasional errors trying to start from a stop, such as at a crosswalk.

I noticed a few other people riding (maybe a dozen total between both times), and saw one scooter lying on its side in an odd place, but all in all I thought it was enjoyable, and a useful way to get around downtown, especially on a hot day with little shade.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 06, 2021, 05:18:41 PM
Enforce the law, regardless of ages and vehicle types. That has nothing to do with parenting. Let's not confuse the two. Just a random question though. How often have you used the scooters?
Im not confusing anything. I agree 100% regarding law enforcement. What I said regarding parenting was if MY TEENAGER was abusing the traffic laws as I observed then my teen and I would have an issue…

I have ridden scooters before. Not my thing because… I know I no longer heal as quickly as I once did. I can assure you that I would follow traffic laws.  Do you?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 06:19:09 PM
What I said regarding parenting was if MY TEENAGER was abusing the traffic laws as I observed then my teen and I would have an issue…

This is what I read and responded too.

You can suspect all you like Ennis. I assume you and others are much more lenient parents than I. That’s your business.

Advocating for equal enforcement of traffic laws, regardless of vehicle type has nothing to do with who is or isn't more lenient with their kids. I'm not sure where that came from or what it was actually in response too. I'm pretty sure I didn't call anyone a bad parent.

Quote
Running the wrong way on a scooter getting hit by an unsuspecting car driver… I know who will be hurt and who’s walking away.

Running the wrong way in a pickup truck and hitting an unsuspecting pedestrian crossing the street... I know who will be dead and who won't have a scratch. A curfew on scooters doesn't resolve the issue of a scooter driver or car driver not following the law.

Quote
I have ridden scooters before. Not my thing because… I know I no longer heal as quickly as I once did. I can assure you that I would follow traffic laws.  Do you?

I'm glad you follow traffic laws. If not you should be ticketed. Same goes for me. I asked this question because I wanted to test my assumption I posted in this thread.

Also, reading that article featuring quotes by Rory Diamond, I'd question the demographic make up of the complainers. I get the impression that most of the complaints likely come from a segment of the population that don't use them.

Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 06, 2021, 06:50:03 PM
I see you still do not seem to understand my parenting sentence so I will try one more time.  The events that I witnessed featured very clearly teenagers... not 18 or "adult"... but teenagers.  (<16)  (If) one of those children were mine... my teenager and myself and their mother would have to have a talk... because that illegal and dangerous actions are not condoned,  excused, or acceptable behavior...

MY TEENAGER.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 07:01:46 PM
^No need to try. I never commented about your teenager, your parenting or anyone else's parenting. I'm confused to why I'm being looped into something to do with your teenager. That must have been something addressed or discussed with someone else.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 06, 2021, 07:39:46 PM
No worries... some look at a circumstance through the lens of an urban planner and someone else may see the same thing though a parental lens.  Same thing different viewpoints...
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 08:17:02 PM
Being both, no they aren't the same.  I could be wrong but the primary difference in this conversation is that you're equating e-scooters as being for kids. I'm viewing them as another form of mobility. Like a car, bike, train, AV shuttle and our own feet. So when I say traffic laws should be followed, regardless of mode, I'm not questioning your parenting skills or anyone else's. By the same token, curfews on a mobility option don't necessarily apply to kids. They apply to any adult using them as well.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 06, 2021, 08:56:52 PM
As a guy walking and driving the downtown streets 40 hours a week, I've had way more close calls and witnessed more traffic infractions with Jimmy Johns employees and other white bicyclers than I've had with minority riders on scooters.

Curious that you don't hear anyone calling for a curfew on bicycles...
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 06, 2021, 09:09:38 PM
Also, reading that article featuring quotes by Rory Diamond, I'd question the demographic make up of the complainers.

Probably the demographic that enthusiastically votes yes for a $350 million cash handout to a billionaire while simultaneously getting preachy about a six-cent gas tax designed to help underserved neighborhoods.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 06, 2021, 09:14:17 PM
I can't tell you how many pedestrians I've saved from being hit by cars, while walking downtown. I've almost been taken out myself.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 07, 2021, 06:25:21 AM
As a guy walking and driving the downtown streets 40 hours a week, I've had way more close calls and witnessed more traffic infractions with Jimmy Johns employees and other white bicyclers than I've had with minority riders on scooters.

Curious that you don't hear anyone calling for a curfew on bicycles...

Curious you are mentioning "white bicyclers and minority riders" when I certainly have not.  Clearly you make assumptions of people's motivations without actually knowing what they are. Awesome.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on June 07, 2021, 09:34:25 AM
In downtown Jacksonville 'people' are constantly walking out in front of moving vehicles, hoping to get hit (and survive). Why do you think Farah and Farah have offices down there?

And I'll repeat, two roaming cops on beefed up scooters could keep the whole scene at night fun and safe. How hard is that to understand?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 07, 2021, 10:09:59 AM
In downtown Jacksonville 'people' are constantly walking out in front of moving vehicles, hoping to get hit (and survive). Why do you think Farah and Farah have offices down there?

And I'll repeat, two roaming cops on beefed up scooters could keep the whole scene at night fun and safe. How hard is that to understand?

Safe for whom? As a middle class, white male, my experience with the police (and at the hands of the police) appears to be quite different than the experiences of many others. I am not sure adding cops to the mix always results in a good outcome.

Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 07, 2021, 10:44:28 AM
I don't know about all the other "stuff" being talked about or implied... I am simply interested in the safety of the children driving them... So in that light here are some actual facts...

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a27372767/electric-scooters-mobility-safety/

https://www.thenationshealth.org/content/49/7/1.3

https://www.hopkinsallchildrens.org/ACH-News/General-News/Are-Electric-Scooters-Safe

https://time.com/5521308/electric-scooter-safety/
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: acme54321 on June 07, 2021, 01:47:31 PM
Yeah, groups of 13 year olds weaving down the middle main street on scooters is the main problem I have seen.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 07, 2021, 04:18:01 PM

Downtown has a curfew on the serving of alcohol.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on June 07, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
"Safe for whom? As a middle class, white male, my experience with the police (and at the hands of the police) appears to be quite different than the experiences of many others. I am not sure adding cops to the mix always results in a good outcome."

You only have to worry if your breaking the law.

Safe and fun...meaning correcting the scooter drivers before anyone gets hurt.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 07, 2021, 05:50:52 PM
"Safe for whom? As a middle class, white male, my experience with the police (and at the hands of the police) appears to be quite different than the experiences of many others. I am not sure adding cops to the mix always results in a good outcome."

You only have to worry if your breaking the law.

Safe and fun...meaning correcting the scooter drivers before anyone gets hurt.

Okay, boomer.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 07, 2021, 06:35:13 PM
"Safe for whom? As a middle class, white male, my experience with the police (and at the hands of the police) appears to be quite different than the experiences of many others. I am not sure adding cops to the mix always results in a good outcome."

You only have to worry if your breaking the law.

Safe and fun...meaning correcting the scooter drivers before anyone gets hurt.

Okay, boomer.

Very helpful... you certainly have added a significant thought to the discussion.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 07, 2021, 09:19:11 PM
In downtown Jacksonville 'people' are constantly walking out in front of moving vehicles, hoping to get hit (and survive). Why do you think Farah and Farah have offices down there?

And I'll repeat, two roaming cops on beefed up scooters could keep the whole scene at night fun and safe. How hard is that to understand?

Safe for whom? As a middle class, white male, my experience with the police (and at the hands of the police) appears to be quite different than the experiences of many others. I am not sure adding cops to the mix always results in a good outcome.

"Safe for whom?"

I'm not certain framing the issue of safety as a zero-sum game is accurate or helpful. You can acknowledge a history of systemic bias  while also realizing young teenagers, with not-yet-developed risk/reward reasoning, may require additional supervision when being allowed to operate scooters on the street with cars.

You'll notice race isn't a factor in that statement, which was clearly your implication. Whether a teenager on a scooter downtown or a teenager in a golf cart in Nocatee , it's inherently riskier than an adult operator of the same, on average. It doesn't seem unreasonable to be concerned for their safety and the safety of those around them if they're not following the rules of the road.

Statistics be damned, I'd bet money all it will take is one kid getting killed or hurt on these scooters and you can kiss them goodbye. I do not understand any argument for not enforcing valid traffic laws--these aren't Jim Crow laws--based on the user demographic of the scooters. Resource allocation decisions by JSO? Sure. If JTB needs 6 officers every day, it may be hard to get around to scooter enforcement. But that doesn't invalidate the safety concerns re: wrong-way...scooterers? Scooteri? Scooterae?

Edit: None of which is to suggest that complaints motivated by racial animus are excusable. This certainly is not a top-ten crime issue in Duval.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 08, 2021, 01:59:42 AM
"Safe for whom? As a middle class, white male, my experience with the police (and at the hands of the police) appears to be quite different than the experiences of many others. I am not sure adding cops to the mix always results in a good outcome."

You only have to worry if your breaking the law.

Safe and fun...meaning correcting the scooter drivers before anyone gets hurt.

Okay, boomer.

Very helpful... you certainly have added a significant thought to the discussion.

Okay, boomer.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 08, 2021, 02:06:24 AM
In downtown Jacksonville 'people' are constantly walking out in front of moving vehicles, hoping to get hit (and survive). Why do you think Farah and Farah have offices down there?

And I'll repeat, two roaming cops on beefed up scooters could keep the whole scene at night fun and safe. How hard is that to understand?

Safe for whom? As a middle class, white male, my experience with the police (and at the hands of the police) appears to be quite different than the experiences of many others. I am not sure adding cops to the mix always results in a good outcome.

"Safe for whom?"

I'm not certain framing the issue of safety as a zero-sum game is accurate or helpful. You can acknowledge a history of systemic bias  while also realizing young teenagers, with not-yet-developed risk/reward reasoning, may require additional supervision when being allowed to operate scooters on the street with cars.

You'll notice race isn't a factor in that statement, which was clearly your implication. Whether a teenager on a scooter downtown or a teenager in a golf cart in Nocatee , it's inherently riskier than an adult operator of the same, on average. It doesn't seem unreasonable to be concerned for their safety and the safety of those around them if they're not following the rules of the road.

Statistics be damned, I'd bet money all it will take is one kid getting killed or hurt on these scooters and you can kiss them goodbye. I do not understand any argument for not enforcing valid traffic laws--these aren't Jim Crow laws--based on the user demographic of the scooters. Resource allocation decisions by JSO? Sure. If JTB needs 6 officers every day, it may be hard to get around to scooter enforcement. But that doesn't invalidate the safety concerns re: wrong-way...scooterers? Scooteri? Scooterae?

Edit: None of which is to suggest that complaints motivated by racial animus are excusable. This certainly is not a top-ten crime issue in Duval.

My point was that the rush to add police to 'fix' a problem might not be the best solution. From reading this thread, I have been advised by Karen...I mean Simms...that the demographic using these scooters the most is young black men. The fact of the matter is that black men are treated differently by cops than white men. Now, it may not be an issue and it may be that you add a couple of cops to the mix and everything works out fine. But I think that just looking to add cops to address the perceived issues is - or seems to be - overkill.

I don't know what the solution is. I'm just saying that maybe we should try to be a bit creative about this and not just throw cops into the mix as the first solution.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 08, 2021, 06:30:22 AM
According to the statistics someone has probably been hurt already in Jax... I  bet a good lawyer could make some money here...

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/fl-ne-scooter-injuries-20200201-dsyh33jftzevflcxdnw4g66voa-story.html
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 08, 2021, 07:31:33 AM
I don't know what the solution is. I'm just saying that maybe we should try to be a bit creative about this and not just throw cops into the mix as the first solution.

The solution is a simple one. Enforce traffic laws regardless of the vehicle type (e-scooter, car, bicycle, etc.) and regardless of the age group. Doing so is an equitable part of improving traffic safety. In addition to that, we need to continue to invest in roadway infrastructure that improves safety for all users of the streets. While some (not all complainers) may have clear biases with a portion of the demographics (Jax's is a majority minority city now, so we'll need to get used to our increasing diversity) using the system, this other stuff about curfews on e-scooter use, etc. really don't address the core issue at hand. Unequitable enforcement only makes the systemic issues revolving around some long standing biases, rise to the top.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Josh on June 08, 2021, 08:55:58 AM
According to the statistics someone has probably been hurt already in Jax... I  bet a good lawyer could make some money here...

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/fl-ne-scooter-injuries-20200201-dsyh33jftzevflcxdnw4g66voa-story.html

I know someone who was injured while using one only a few days after they first showed up.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 08, 2021, 02:40:28 PM

I'm pretty confident no one hates scooters more than me.

If they were a meaningful problem, I would not hesitate to bitch and moan to high hell.   I'd love to complain.  But it's gotta be legit + sincere.  At this point I just don't see a problem.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Tacachale on June 08, 2021, 04:51:13 PM
According to the statistics someone has probably been hurt already in Jax... I  bet a good lawyer could make some money here...

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/fl-ne-scooter-injuries-20200201-dsyh33jftzevflcxdnw4g66voa-story.html

I know someone who was injured while using one only a few days after they first showed up.

I fell over using one the other day. That said, I've done a lot more damage with a car, bike, skateboard and surfboard than that.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 08, 2021, 04:52:21 PM
According to the statistics someone has probably been hurt already in Jax... I  bet a good lawyer could make some money here...

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/fl-ne-scooter-injuries-20200201-dsyh33jftzevflcxdnw4g66voa-story.html

I know someone who was injured while using one only a few days after they first showed up.

I would advise anyone hurt using one or hurt by someone using one to consult with a injury lawyer. I'm betting these companies are insured for large sums just waiting to payout...
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 08, 2021, 04:54:18 PM
According to the statistics someone has probably been hurt already in Jax... I  bet a good lawyer could make some money here...

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/health/fl-ne-scooter-injuries-20200201-dsyh33jftzevflcxdnw4g66voa-story.html

I know someone who was injured while using one only a few days after they first showed up.

I fell over using one the other day. That said, I've done a lot more damage with a car, bike, skateboard and surfboard than that.

How very anecdotal... The stats say you're lucky...
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 11, 2021, 12:38:56 PM


https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-louis-mayors-office-announces-scooter-curfew-for-downtown/article_a2fe8842-0c8f-5efe-94fe-8f3715fedd9b.html?fbclid=IwAR3aKy1w8FPEzs6l1gvfMKdxOQRj4dFruAa6UVihfZShnt6c7yGUnQKQrTg

Mayor Tishaura O. Jones' office on Friday announced a new daily scooter curfew from 9 p.m. to 8 a.m. in the downtown and downtown west neighborhoods after residents and businesses complained in a neighborhood meeting about drunken and disorderly scooter driving on area sidewalks.

Scooter providers Lime and Bird both agreed to power down the devices at 9 p.m. in response to the mayor's request, said Nick Dunne, a spokesman for the mayor's office.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 12, 2021, 01:13:48 AM
I'm more an advocate of enforcement against specific abuses than an outright ban or curfew. You want people downtown after 5...but want to shut off a last-mile mobility solution at 9?

How about charging the scooter operators a nominal fee to fund enforcement related to their product? Not all that different than the mobility fees in concept. I assume the companies would pass that cost on, such that it becomes essentially a user fee.

No sense letting a few bad actors ruin it for the rest of us. That applies in so, so many areas of our rights and privileges.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 13, 2021, 01:31:16 PM
There's no last mile mobility solution.  The scooters are an attraction for joy rides.  Good for them.  But let's not have a case of vapors claiming that mimaw ain't gonna make it to the doctor cuz they turn off at 9:05pm.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 13, 2021, 04:28:56 PM
There's no last mile mobility solution.
They were designed specifically to serve as such. Just because they're used for other purposes doesn't mean they aren't also a mobility solution.

Quote
The scooters are an attraction for joy rides.  Good for them.  But let's not have a case of vapors claiming that mimaw ain't gonna make it to the doctor cuz they turn off at 9:05pm.

That wasn't my implication at all. I was referring to nightlife and activity downtown, and how shutting something down that facilitates those activities is at odds with the City's goals of a vibrant downtown at night. If more safety enforcement is required to realize that goal, so be it.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 14, 2021, 07:33:38 AM
There's no last mile mobility solution.
They were designed specifically to serve as such. Just because they're used for other purposes doesn't mean they aren't also a mobility solution.



Well, my baseball cap was designed to keep the sun out of the eyes of professional baseball players (in my case, the Baltimore Orioles) - but I use it to hide the fact that I am balding. If I eventually make it onto the Orioles roster, I guess it would most certainly do its job. In the meantime, if I lose it, it won't impact my ability to play professional baseball - but people will know I am bald right away.

I think I get bl8jaxnative's point. Maybe the scooters were designed to be a 'last mile mobility solution' but they aren't necessarily providing that service at the moment. Limiting usage isn't necessarily going to eliminate a 'last mile mobility solution' at this stage.

At least that's what I think he means.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: acme54321 on June 14, 2021, 09:46:41 AM
Yeah I imagine very few (if anyone) are legit using these as a last mile mobility solution. 
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Zac T on June 14, 2021, 10:00:19 AM
Yeah I imagine very few (if anyone) are legit using these as a last mile mobility solution.

As previously stated, I as well as others that I know who live and work around downtown use these scooters as a last mile mobility solution. If they expanded them to surrounding neighborhoods then they would probably become more than just my last mile option.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 14, 2021, 10:34:12 AM
I think I get bl8jaxnative's point. Maybe the scooters were designed to be a 'last mile mobility solution' but they aren't necessarily providing that service at the moment. Limiting usage isn't necessarily going to eliminate a 'last mile mobility solution' at this stage.

At least that's what I think he means.

On the practical side of this, I'm not sure what limiting usage does to resolve anything. It definitely doesn't force anyone using mobility to follow traffic laws, so it isn't helping safety. Seems like a typical Jax politician feel good solution moreso than anything else.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 14, 2021, 12:08:23 PM
I think I get bl8jaxnative's point. Maybe the scooters were designed to be a 'last mile mobility solution' but they aren't necessarily providing that service at the moment. Limiting usage isn't necessarily going to eliminate a 'last mile mobility solution' at this stage.

At least that's what I think he means.

On the practical side of this, I'm not sure what limiting usage does to resolve anything. It definitely doesn't force anyone using mobility to follow traffic laws, so it isn't helping safety. Seems like a typical Jax politician feel good solution moreso than anything else.

I don't disagree. I may be wrong, but it would seem to me that limiting usage would run the risk of making these things into another white elephant or whatever.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 14, 2021, 12:57:50 PM
Yes, that's a risk that goes up in this situation. If you just want e-scooters going, then that's a good thing. If you want downtown to become a vibrant place, the pilot failing is a bad thing.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: WAJAS on June 14, 2021, 06:57:09 PM
To throw another hat in the ring, I've also been using them as a first/last-mile solution.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 15, 2021, 02:57:22 PM
To throw another hat in the ring, I've also been using them as a first/last-mile solution.

I am sure some people do. But - and I could be totally incorrect - it is my experience that Jacksonville's public transportation system is far too anemic and under-utilised at the moment for these scooters to really fulfil their destiny as a last mile solution.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 15, 2021, 03:47:41 PM
Our infrastructure in downtown is fine for e-scooters. It's better than what people will find in other cities with this program like Memphis, Orlando and Atlanta.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Adam White on June 15, 2021, 04:12:37 PM
Our infrastructure in downtown is fine for e-scooters. It's better than what people will find in other cities with this program like Memphis, Orlando and Atlanta.

Well, as I said, I could be totally incorrect.

My point was that 'last mile' generally means someone is using another form of transit (like a bus or train) and then using the scooter for the short last leg of the journey. In my experience (commuting by bus), not a whole lot of people used the bus in Jacksonville - not compared to a lot of larger cities.

But I accept that you know more about this stuff than me.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on June 28, 2021, 10:54:02 PM
It's only a matter of time before someone on a scooter going the wrong way down a street gets hit by a car.
Whose fault will it be when that happens?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: thelakelander on June 28, 2021, 10:59:26 PM
^It will be the fault of the person breaking the law. Btw, over the last month, I've been in Atlanta, Miami, Charleston, Orlando and Gainesville. In each downtown, I've noticed people riding bicycles, scooters and cars down the wrong way of streets. Two hours ago, I watched a guy ride a motorized bicycle the wrong way down Orange Avenue in downtown Orlando, almost getting hit while also running red lights. On the same drive, I observed another guy run dead smack through a red light at OBT and the East West Expressway. The light had to be red for at least 10 seconds. Two miles down the street, three cars had crashed, obviously as a result of someone pulling out into traffic without looking. I say all this to say....whatever, one has seen in downtown Jax is not unique...other than these other cities having busier streets.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 28, 2021, 11:10:31 PM
It's only a matter of time before someone on a scooter going the wrong way down a street gets hit by a car.
Whose fault will it be when that happens?

Easy answer - it’s the scooter driver’s fault.

Same with the pedestrian jaywalking into traffic (far more common than scooters going the wrong way).

Same with a bicycler or skateboarder going against traffic.

Worth pointing out though that the scooter drivers aren’t riding the wrong way down one-way streets to be hooligans. They’re riding the wrong way because the streets downtown are a tangled mess of illogical stupidity that don’t operate like the normal streets you see everywhere else in the city.

Just because I’ve gotten use to driving six blocks out of my way each morning in a wide meandering rectangle just to park in the Duval Street garage doesn’t mean it makes sense to the less frequent downtown visitors.

Maybe, just maybe, the problem ain’t the youths.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 28, 2021, 11:17:52 PM
^It will be the fault of the person breaking the law. Btw, over the last month, I've been in Atlanta, Miami, Charleston, Orlando and Gainesville. In each downtown, I've noticed people riding bicycles, scooters and cars down the wrong way of streets. Two hours ago, I watched a guy ride a motorized bicycle the wrong way down Orange Avenue in downtown Orlando, almost getting hit while also running red lights. On the same drive, I observed another guy run dead smack through a red light at OBT and the East West Expressway. The light had to be red for at least 10 seconds. Two miles down the street, three cars had crashed, obviously as a result of someone pulling out into traffic without looking. I say all this to say....whatever, one has seen in downtown Jax is not unique...other than these other cities having busier streets.

Was in Nashville for a conference last week and was super impressed by how well most people followed the rules on scooters.

Big part of it, which Jax sorely lacks, was dedicated scooter/bike lanes and clear directional signage.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq6jTz8j/172-D1537-CE7-E-49-D2-B44-F-900-F521-D43-DA.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/G2H128ks/64506-C82-43-A8-404-B-A03-A-BE1-F9371-BCC9.jpg)

Free short term parking all over the place too, as opposed to Jax tripling our rates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fXh6N0b/C112492-B-13-BE-4-DA4-9952-37-E8-AA75795-B.jpg)
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 29, 2021, 10:21:05 AM

Speaking of Nashville, any word on a state takeover?  The cities racked up so much debt they're in danger of not merely going bankrupt but some Tennessee laws kicking in that would have the state come in and run it until the mess is cleaned up.

Regardless of that, the main point is to keep in mind all those bachelerettes boozin in the Gulch and on broadway, the green paint for a "lane" on a sidewalk, those shiny new projects w/ free hour parking, may owe a lil too much of their existence to the city taking on too much debt.


one example:
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/15/nashville-property-tax-tennessee-comptroller-warns-takeover-budget-shortfall-unbalanced-budget/5810621002/
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 29, 2021, 06:20:29 PM

Speaking of Nashville, any word on a state takeover?  The cities racked up so much debt they're in danger of not merely going bankrupt but some Tennessee laws kicking in that would have the state come in and run it until the mess is cleaned up.

Regardless of that, the main point is to keep in mind all those bachelerettes boozin in the Gulch and on broadway, the green paint for a "lane" on a sidewalk, those shiny new projects w/ free hour parking, may owe a lil too much of their existence to the city taking on too much debt.


one example:
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/15/nashville-property-tax-tennessee-comptroller-warns-takeover-budget-shortfall-unbalanced-budget/5810621002/

Nashville will be fine.

If nothing else, they’ll outrun it.

I stopped counting cranes at about 40.

Middle of the week, every bar was packed, every hotel was booked, a wait at every restaurant.

Had a chance to meet the head of Nashville Tourism, and the list of major events they have coming in the next 12 months dwarfs our events for the last 12 years.

Oracle just paid a quarter billion dollars for 60 acres of land in East Nashville and is bringing in almost 9,000 jobs.

Tennessee needs Nashville more than Nashville needs Tennessee.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: MusicMan on June 29, 2021, 07:07:46 PM
They could have bought all the downtown waterfront acreage in Jax for that much money, with leftovers to boot.

You have to wonder, whose job is it to bring those big firms/corporations to Jax, and are they doing the job?
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: bl8jaxnative on July 17, 2021, 03:43:39 PM

Speaking of Nashville, any word on a state takeover?  The cities racked up so much debt they're in danger of not merely going bankrupt but some Tennessee laws kicking in that would have the state come in and run it until the mess is cleaned up.

Regardless of that, the main point is to keep in mind all those bachelerettes boozin in the Gulch and on broadway, the green paint for a "lane" on a sidewalk, those shiny new projects w/ free hour parking, may owe a lil too much of their existence to the city taking on too much debt.


one example:
https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/politics/2020/09/15/nashville-property-tax-tennessee-comptroller-warns-takeover-budget-shortfall-unbalanced-budget/5810621002/

Nashville will be fine.

If nothing else, they’ll outrun it.

I stopped counting cranes at about 40.

Middle of the week, every bar was packed, every hotel was booked, a wait at every restaurant.

Had a chance to meet the head of Nashville Tourism, and the list of major events they have coming in the next 12 months dwarfs our events for the last 12 years.

Oracle just paid a quarter billion dollars for 60 acres of land in East Nashville and is bringing in almost 9,000 jobs.

Tennessee needs Nashville more than Nashville needs Tennessee.

I'm not trying to pick a fight.  I can appreciate that view.  But  none of that addresses the legal issues around the city's debt.     Once can have a lot of growth + still have so much city debt that the state steps in to sort things out.

So that's why I'm curious for some _insight_.

That said, to be clear, I do appreciate your reply.  It's a good reminder that the city is doing well in a lot of ways.  And it's a good point to make that even if it does happen, it's not going to change things. 


They could have bought all the downtown waterfront acreage in Jax for that much money, with leftovers to boot.

You have to wonder, whose job is it to bring those big firms/corporations to Jax, and are they doing the job?

haha, true, true. 

I'd think though the question is how to get it all started.  Or maybe it has.  Oracle didn't decide to invest in that Nashville campus cuz of that one thing ( note, I'm not trying to say music man somehow was implying that at all ).  20 years ago Oracle wouldnt' have done that with Nashville. 

Nashville got there cuz of all that growth.  They're no longer hick.  They've got a strong creative group of folks that have flooded the city.  Not just for music but for design + other things.
Title: Re: Pilot e-scooter program in downtown Jacksonville hits some bumps in the road
Post by: Zac T on July 30, 2021, 10:41:18 AM
Orlando is extending their scooter pilot program to January 2022. Same as Jax, some residents love them and use them to get around day to day and others hate them and view them as nothing but toys with careless riders. Sanford and other Central Florida cities are looking to start their own micro-mobility programs.

Quote
Micromobilty soon may be a long-term mode of transportation in the city of Orlando. City commissioners on July 19 extended the scooter-share pilot program end date from July 31 until Jan. 3, 2022. The program, which allows up to 1,800 electric scooters on the streets of Orlando, was set to expire July 31.

The extension of the program — which allows up to 1,800 electric scooters on Orlando’s streets — will give the city more time to examine data collected during the pilot, and develop a request -for-proposal (RFP) process to issue scooter firms the long-term ability to operate in Orlando. The city expects to select up to three firms to operate in Orlando, Transportation Director Tanya Wilder said. The RFP is set to be released this month.

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/07/29/e-scooters-roll-toward-wider-adoption-orlando.html