The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 11:14:01 AM

Title: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 11:14:01 AM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-wants-the-landing-to-start-with-a-park
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 19, 2020, 11:23:40 AM
Sigh…

So apparently the Landing is no more, we're supposed to call this place Riverfront Plaza now. I'm sure that being the name used on the Curry drawing is just a coincidence.

And now we get to wait until the new year for the RFP to go out, then probably a few more months for designs to be made and submitted, then another month for the DIA to review and choose one, then another RFP for the commercial space, annnnnd it's 2030.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 11:30:56 AM
^LOL, the nightmare we warned would happen nearly two years ago is now upon us. As predicted, that demo set that site back a decade. Never discount the benefit of a shorter implementation timeframe when it comes to adaptive reuse of structurally sound public assets, no matter what the public official of the day will try sell you.

Could have easily had a food hall, brewery, event space, cultural attraction and/or other new uses already open in a revamped Landing, adding to the tenants that were already in operation, for less than it cost to buy, raze, dream more and wait. Now we're stuck with spending more money and time doing more studying and design concepts (seriously, how many more of these do we actually need?) and several years before there will be anything decent, funded and constructed on the site. In the meantime, our reality is a pretty dead space in the heart of the city. 

It's too late for this site and the Ford at Bay. I'm hoping we don't repeat these mistakes with the MOSH building and land when they vacate.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 19, 2020, 11:48:23 AM
^With you guys on all this, we should have just partnered with Sleiman on Landing improvements in the same way we're partnering with the Jags, but just looking for some positives in this mess going forward:

1) Even though I'd love to see a larger portion of the property set aside for mixed-use development, at least the DIA wants to ensure that the park element is worthy of the prime location, is soliciting multiple designs, and is letting the public weigh in. Per the article, they absolutely do not want an empty lawn fronting the private pads.

2) I think the DIA is onto something here as well with their plans for parks at Friendship Fountains/St. Johns Park, the Landing, the District, and potentially future development at Berkman II and Met Park/Shipyards. They essentially want to set aside a portion of incremental tax revenue from each development that has to be used solely for annual maintenance and upkeep of that development's respective public greenspace. I think this will go a long way toward helping these parks thrive.

3) Call me an optimist (I totally am), but I think we'll see construction start on the new Landing before we see construction start on anything at the Sports Complex. If the park design RFP goes out on January 1st as planned, we should have a design chosen by the end of Spring that would trigger an RFP for private development of the pads. FDOT starts on the pedestrian ramp removal at the Landing site in February and plans to be wrapped by end of summer. I don't think it's inconceivable that we see major work underway at the Landing by early-to-mid 2022.

Never should have come to this, but hopefully something good happens with the site.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 19, 2020, 12:23:59 PM
It's too late for this site and the Ford at Bay. I'm hoping we don't repeat these mistakes with the MOSH building and land when they vacate.

Problem is, little to nothing has changed that would prevent repeating those mistakes in the future. Curry is still in charge, and likely will be until 2023. City Council hasn't substantially changed, although Lot J might be breaking some backs. The DIA might be learning, based on some comments about the Related project by MOSH, but that's not clear yet. JTA is clearly not going to get their act together with a transit system that connects all of this in a rational way.

I worry that we're going to end up blowing half a billion dollars over the next two years in a way that doesn't present a cohesive vision for downtown or secure a serious future with the Jags, then elect Curry's handpicked successor and wonder why things aren't working. And then people will start getting upset at why we're spending so much money downtown and we don't seem to have much to show for it.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 12:27:04 PM
^With you guys on all this, we should have just partnered with Sleiman on Landing improvements in the same way we're partnering with the Jags, but just looking for some positives in this mess going forward:

1) Even though I'd love to see a larger portion of the property set aside for mixed-use development, at least the DIA wants to ensure that the park element is worthy of the prime location, is soliciting multiple designs, and is letting the public weigh in. Per the article, they absolutely do not want an empty lawn fronting the private pads.

Perhaps I'm too close to it. If I look from the window of my downtown office, 15 floors below I see a dead space that didn't have to be this way. I don't see many positives right now, just more of the same. It's all predictable because we've been here before. We spent hundreds of thousands on public engagement and plan by a more than qualified urban waterfront development firm to produce a plan in 2015. Dust it off and implement it. All this says to me is that the public wasted their time and money five years ago.

Quote
2) I think the DIA is onto something here as well with their plans for parks at Friendship Fountains/St. Johns Park, the Landing, the District, and potentially future development at Berkman II and Met Park/Shipyards. They essentially want to set aside a portion of incremental tax revenue from each development that has to be used solely for annual maintenance and upkeep of that development's respective public greenspace. I think this will go a long way toward helping these parks thrive.

Yes, maintaining public spaces is a plus. Hopefully more funds can be allocated for maintenance but this is something that should be 100% expected in a thriving city.

Quote
3) Call me an optimist (I totally am), but I think we'll see construction start on the new Landing before we see construction start on anything at the Sports Complex. If the park design RFP goes out on January 1st as planned, we should have a design chosen by the end of Spring that would trigger an RFP for private development of the pads. FDOT starts on the pedestrian ramp removal at the Landing site in February and plans to be wrapped by end of summer. I don't think it's inconceivable that we see major work underway at the Landing by early-to-mid 2022.

You're an optimist. Early 2022 is 13 months away. Nothing will be breaking ground that quick when the RFP for what amounts to a conceptual design competition hasn't even gone out. If any transparent amount of public engagement is included, that alone will stretch out the schedule by a couple of months at the minimum. We haven't even addressed allocating a good $50 million in the budget to pay for a decent space, getting council approval to spend that type of money, time associated with DDRB reviews, permitting with various agencies, etc.

Quote
Never should have come to this, but hopefully something good happens with the site.

Something will happen. However, we likely won't be able to enjoy a finished product at this site until close to 10 years after Sleiman's buyout and eviction of the previous tenants. That's just the realist in me speaking.  When you go this route, things simply take time, regardless of whether its Jax, Miami or NYC.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on November 19, 2020, 12:29:23 PM
I worry that we're going to end up blowing half a billion dollars over the next two years in a way that doesn't present a cohesive vision for downtown or secure a serious future with the Jags, then elect Curry's handpicked successor and wonder why things aren't working. And then people will start getting upset at why we're spending so much money downtown and we don't seem to have much to show for it.

I share similar concerns.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: bl8jaxnative on November 20, 2020, 11:04:27 AM

So who calls the shots on the old site?  The land is owned by the city, correct?  That is why there's talk about RFPs in the future, etc, right?


And so DIA in this case is chiming in because they don't want the site neglected until something else occurs?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on November 20, 2020, 11:42:21 PM
You've gotta be kidding me. Lori Boyer needs to be fired. They all make me sick.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on November 20, 2020, 11:43:17 PM
I just DON'T understand this analogy.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on November 21, 2020, 12:40:14 AM

So who calls the shots on the old site?  The land is owned by the city, correct?  That is why there's talk about RFPs in the future, etc, right?


And so DIA in this case is chiming in because they don't want the site neglected until something else occurs?

The whole announcement is old news. This has been the plan ever since Curry and crew created this paper napkin sketch of their vision for the site before buying Sleiman out.

(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Business/Jacksonville-Landing/i-hPvBnQP/0/87d38d84/L/183444_standard-L.png)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on November 21, 2020, 06:48:05 PM

So who calls the shots on the old site?  The land is owned by the city, correct?  That is why there's talk about RFPs in the future, etc, right?


And so DIA in this case is chiming in because they don't want the site neglected until something else occurs?

The whole announcement is old news. This has been the plan ever since Curry and crew created this paper napkin sketch of their vision for the site before buying Sleiman out.

(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Business/Jacksonville-Landing/i-hPvBnQP/0/87d38d84/L/183444_standard-L.png)
Please. Yes, old news. Yes stupid news. Yes I am not over it.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Florida Power And Light on November 22, 2020, 07:25:18 PM
Public Use Riverfront.
Open green space visual scenery.
A rare accomplishment.

Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on November 22, 2020, 08:02:42 PM
Sigh…

So apparently the Landing is no more, we're supposed to call this place Riverfront Plaza now. I'm sure that being the name used on the Curry drawing is just a coincidence.

And now we get to wait until the new year for the RFP to go out, then probably a few more months for designs to be made and submitted, then another month for the DIA to review and choose one, then another RFP for the commercial space, annnnnd it's 2030.
Annnnnnnd by then most of us will be near death dirt or pushing up daisies. Oh well, we can't stay here forever.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 24, 2020, 06:08:09 PM
So it begins.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/documents-show-dia-wants-final-jacksonville-landing-park-design-by-august-2021

Quote
Obtained through a Nov. 18 public records request, the draft outlines the process to select three teams to provide 50% of the public park design by April 1, 2021.

The RFP is part of the city’s plan to redevelop the former Jacksonville Landing property after the city razed the two-story riverfront shopping mall in May.

The DIA would set an Aug. 31, 2021 deadline for the top-scoring team to submit a final design that includes an estimated construction budget, according to the documents.

As expected, we'll be 3/4 of the way through next year before we even have a final design for the space. Although I imagine it won't look all that different from what Curry's office put out.

Quote
DIA CEO Lori Boyer said in a Nov. 11 interview that she does not want to put the rest of the 6.8-acre site on the market for private development until the preliminary park/plaza design is complete.

And to top it off, we won't even start looking for things to put besides the park space until… I can't tell if that quote means April or September. So I guess we'll have some idea of what the entire place is going to look like… perhaps early 2022?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on November 24, 2020, 09:22:28 PM
What they'll hopefully have by mid-2021 is a final conceptual design at best.  The article mentioned what will come next in the design phase:

Quote
Mayor Lenny Curry’s administration budgeted an additional $2 million for the Landing by fiscal year 2021-22 for preengineering, engineering and landscape work on the Landing’s public space.

If we're lucky, there will be a final design sometime in 2022-2023. Before construction will start, there will still be a need to allocate construction funds in the budget. For a decent urban park, that could be upwards of $20 to $50 million. St. Pete's Pier cost $92 million for comparison's sake. This is what I said a few days ago. I stand by it, no matter what the DIA and Mayors Office tell local media, based on person experience of being involved in projects like this in multiple cities throughout my career.


3) Call me an optimist (I totally am), but I think we'll see construction start on the new Landing before we see construction start on anything at the Sports Complex. If the park design RFP goes out on January 1st as planned, we should have a design chosen by the end of Spring that would trigger an RFP for private development of the pads. FDOT starts on the pedestrian ramp removal at the Landing site in February and plans to be wrapped by end of summer. I don't think it's inconceivable that we see major work underway at the Landing by early-to-mid 2022.

You're an optimist. Early 2022 is 13 months away. Nothing will be breaking ground that quick when the RFP for what amounts to a conceptual design competition hasn't even gone out. If any transparent amount of public engagement is included, that alone will stretch out the schedule by a couple of months at the minimum. We haven't even addressed allocating a good $50 million in the budget to pay for a decent space, getting council approval to spend that type of money, time associated with DDRB reviews, permitting with various agencies, etc.

Based on this most recent article, we'd be lucky if the engineering level design phase will even be underway by early 2022.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 25, 2020, 12:20:05 AM
^Keep in mind that, back in 2017, I thought the Trio would be complete, the Landing would be redeveloped, and the Shipyards would be under construction by end of 2020 ;D

Eternal optimist.



Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on November 25, 2020, 12:34:33 AM
I'd have to go back and look it up but I feel we're a year behind with current Landing RFP talk. I recall this was something Hughes and Boyer claimed at one point that would take begin in early 2020.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 25, 2020, 01:55:42 AM
What they'll hopefully have by mid-2021 is a final conceptual design at best.  The article mentioned what will come next in the design phase:

Quote
Mayor Lenny Curry’s administration budgeted an additional $2 million for the Landing by fiscal year 2021-22 for preengineering, engineering and landscape work on the Landing’s public space.

If we're lucky, there will be a final design sometime in 2022-2023. Before construction will start, there will still be a need to allocate construction funds in the budget. For a decent urban park, that could be upwards of $20 to $50 million. St. Pete's Pier cost $92 million for comparison's sake. This is what I said a few days ago. I stand by it, no matter what the DIA and Mayors Office tell local media, based on person experience of being involved in projects like this in multiple cities throughout my career.

To top it off, this will likely (even if it shouldn't) be competing with Metro Park (once NPS approves a move) for funding. I get a bad feeling that Jacksonville of all places isn't about to drop big money on two urban riverfront parks, which means one is probably going to get short-changed.

Or worse, that neither are decent urban riverfront parks.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on January 19, 2021, 02:22:57 PM
DIA to start search Jan. 20 for firms to design park at former Jacksonville Landing site

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-to-start-search-jan-20-for-firms-to-design-park-at-former-jacksonville-landing-site
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on January 19, 2021, 06:56:37 PM
RFP specifically notes supplementary buildings and features in addition to the two smallish development pads flanking the property, so hopefully the finished product ends up looking like something closer to the 2015 Wakfield Beasley plan designed by experienced professionals, and less like the 2018 Lenny's Lawn plan designed by Brian Hughes on the back of a cocktail napkin.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on January 19, 2021, 09:22:18 PM
I'm still wondering why we aren't using that plan we already paid for? Is it because it's a Brown administration and Sleiman associated product?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on January 19, 2021, 10:55:22 PM
This stinks like a skunk in a pickle barrel. If they build a park there, it will be permanent, and nothing else will be planned or built there like the Landing, or whatever! It stinks!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on January 19, 2021, 11:25:40 PM
I'm still wondering why we aren't using that plan we already paid for? Is it because it's a Brown administration and Sleiman associated product?

You never know.

If you’re petty enough to sink Sleiman’s redevelopment efforts at the Landing, bully him out of his long-term lease, and bulldoze the property in part just to settle a political feud against Sleiman for appearing in a campaign ad with Alvin Brown...

Worth stating the obvious that even Curry’s bullying is trash.

He was supposed to TAKE Sleiman’s milk money, not give him his own.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on March 18, 2021, 05:02:37 PM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/three-national-firms-selected-in-former-landing-park-design-competition

Three firms selected.

Quote
• Agency Landscape + Planning LLC of Cambridge, Massachusetts. The company’s work includes phase one of the 10-acre Bay Park in Sarasota and the 2015 Downtown Experience plan in Raleigh, North Carolina.

• Olin Partnership Ltd. of Philadelphia. Olin is designing a 1.2-mile stretch of riverfront in Alexandria, Virginia, and in 1991 designed Bryant Park’s restoration in New York City.

• Perkins & Will Inc. of Chicago. The company’s work includes historic Emancipation Park in Houston and Waterfront Botanical Gardens in Louisville, Kentucky. 

Some other notes:

Quote
DIA officials want the firm selected to have its design complete by Oct. 1, then the city will bid construction and break ground on the park in early 2022.

Boyer said Feb. 4 that the timeline would allow for construction costs to be included in the city’s 2021-22 fiscal year budget.

DIA officials want the public park under construction before private development begins on two pads which city documents show on the northwest and northeast corners of the site.

So we'd be looking at nearly three years since closing to start construction on the replacement park. Which is still before they actually start working on development.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on March 18, 2021, 06:58:53 PM
If they break ground on construction of the park space in early 2022, that will be something. I wonder if there is a cap on the anticipated construction cost?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: landfall on March 18, 2021, 07:26:00 PM
Only Jacksonville could make such a lengthy process out of grass, trees and benches.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on March 18, 2021, 08:37:29 PM
I wonder if there is a cap on the anticipated construction cost?

It sounds like we'll know on the 26th.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: tufsu1 on March 21, 2021, 10:34:08 PM
Two of the shortlisted firms have very strong national/global resumes for downtown and waterfront projects. So do a few firms that didn't make the cut.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: acme54321 on March 21, 2021, 10:51:31 PM
So what your saying is that we'll select the firm that doesn't?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on March 22, 2021, 01:03:06 AM
^ It's the Jacksonville Way.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: CityLife on March 22, 2021, 11:26:29 AM
Two of the shortlisted firms have very strong national/global resumes for downtown and waterfront projects. So do a few firms that didn't make the cut.
Agreed, the firms selected and some that didn't make it are very strong. I just hope they are putting their A or B teams on the project with the hopes that this can be a high profile project. A lot of them are design factories and it's an easy $125k for them win or lose.

It's easy to be pessimistic with how things have been going downtown, but these firms should be able to create some very impressive concepts. It's just a matter of how willing Jacksonville will be to fund it. I think the Landing was still salvageable and should have been repurposed before being torn town, but it can EASILY be surpassed with quality design and money thrown at it. 


Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on March 22, 2021, 12:00:40 PM
The firms mean pretty much nothing to me. The firm that did the 2015 design was a nationally credible firm as well. All can design and Jax has had plenty of things designed that look great on paper. Call me when we know how many millions the project will cost and we actually allocate and spend the money to build.

I think the Landing was still salvageable and should have been repurposed before being torn town, but it can EASILY be surpassed with quality design and money thrown at it.

When it's all said and done, I'd argue we'd end up in the same spot....but with years of the site being active in the interim. We could have easily kept the place open, had the same firms come up with designs for the site and ended up with something just as creative and unique and continuously occupied during the transformation.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on March 22, 2021, 01:01:36 PM
Stoopid. A park...sheesh.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Downtown Osprey on March 22, 2021, 01:51:04 PM
Render-Ville strikes again!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on March 29, 2021, 08:17:59 PM
$10-$15 million is what the city is budgeting for the new Landing park.

To be included in next year's CIP.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on March 29, 2021, 09:56:52 PM
So nothing on the level of the new $92 million St. Pete Pier? Closer in the range of Water Works Park in Tampa Heights.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on March 29, 2021, 10:26:49 PM
Unsurprising that it's far less than St. Pete. Too busy expanding all the interstates and building pod cars.

Looking at Water Works Park (https://www.tampabay.com/news/localgovernment/tampa-opens-water-works-park-today-and-looks-for-big-things-to-follow/2192536/), I see it's about $7.4 million for 5 acres. "Riverfront Plaza" is supposed to be a minimum of 4.5 acres. It certainly doesn't look terrible (https://www.tampa.gov/document/waterworksparkmap-28821), but I don't know if it screams "iconic urban space." Most of the space does look to be just open greenspace of some kind, similarly to the Mayor's office drawing, and I wonder what that says in terms of activity. I also wonder how much of that money is budgeted for maintenance, because it does us little good to end up with a run-down husk of a park in ten years because we couldn't keep it clean and programmed.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on March 29, 2021, 11:10:22 PM
Water Works Park is well maintained but nothing special. Those types of spaces are pretty common in cities, big and small these days. DT Tampa's main urban park is Curtis Hixon Waterfront Park. It was revamped to the tune of $43 million back in 2010. In addition to the cost of that space, the Tampa Museum of Art opened shortly after. Anchoring the park, it cost another $34 million. Another $21 million was needed to build the Children's Museum next to it. That's $98 million spent and I'd still say it isn't an iconic space. The Landing park likely won't be iconic, when compared to what exists in most cities across the country. However, it should be better than the typical Jacksonville park space. It's a high profile project for those involved.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on March 30, 2021, 05:12:27 PM
I wonder how much of that money is budgeted for maintenance, because it does us little good to end up with a run-down husk of a park in ten years because we couldn't keep it clean and programmed.

None.

The DIA plans to use incremental tax revenue, as well as a portion of any property taxes resulting from the proposed private development pads, to fund an annual maintenance budget for the new park.

They’re doing the same thing with the Related project (incremental taxes will be preserved for maintenance of Friendship Fountain/St. Johns Park to the estimated tune of about $150k a year), as well as the proposed public parks at the District. 

Wouldn’t be surprised to see similar arrangements with MOSH/Shipyards park and Jags/Met Park, assuming any of these things actually happen.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on March 31, 2021, 04:21:09 PM
First step to Landing redevelopment is below.  All I can say is I hope they address the tidal wave of cars leaving after a show at the Times Union Center with either coordinated lights and/or JSO traffic control given the distance and intersection traffic will have to pass through to access the bridge (needs to also be done for access to the Acosta).

Sadly, we don't give the arts the same attention we give the Jags when it comes to traffic management and it hurts business Downtown as a result.  I have waited up to almost an hour to get out of this area (and the Arena area) after events/shows.  A real cluster.  This should also be addressed by Curry's Downtown "Fixers."

Following per FDOT:
Quote
Independent Drive Ramp to Main Street Bridge to Close Permanently April 15

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. – The Independent Drive ramp to the southbound Main Street Bridge will close permanently April 15. The closure will allow crews to demolish the ramp.

Motorists on Independent Drive seeking to travel south on the Main Street Bridge will continue past the ramp, turn left on Bay Street and turn left on the Main Street Bridge and continue toward their destination, as shown in the map below.
 
During construction, the west pedestrian sidewalk of the bridge will be closed. Pedestrians will be detoured to the east pedestrian access to the bridge. Signage will be in place to assist roadway users and pedestrians. 

Superior Construction was awarded the $584,000 project, which is expected to be completed in summer 2021, weather and unforeseen circumstances permitting.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 02, 2021, 09:28:44 AM
Couple of details from the DIA's Q&A with the three chosen finalists, via the JBJ (https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/04/01/dia-discusses-second-phase-landing-rfp.html)

Quote
“You may put a significant amount of the budget into the art piece,” Boyer said. “We are looking for something that is memorable and recognized as ‘Oh, that’s Jacksonville.’”

A firm budget for the project has not been set, but the city has been using $12 million as a placeholder.

The aspect of the design that makes it iconic could be something that frames the view of the site from the river or toward the river or an architectural or art piece, Boyer said.

“Let me throw out an example: your art piece looks like the Chicago Bean, but it’s the Jacksonville version of something,” Boyer said. “It wouldn’t necessarily be tall and lighted and meet their criteria for the beacon element, but you could suggest that be placed on the adjacent site.”

One developer noted that a “recognizable” art piece is a “pretty commanding question to answer” without knowing a final budget. Boyer responded that a project that proposes something outside of the placeholder budget would be evaluated accordingly.

“We want this to be a memorable space, but if a competing team happens to come in with a very memorable space with a wonderful piece of art that maybe costs $3 million or $5 million and gets us there, that will be part of the evaluation,” Boyer said.

Boyer also made recommendations for the firms moving forward, including the nature of their designs related to the riverfront. She said that due to the bulkhead replacement, she recommended developers not design something that goes over the water that would significantly alter the existing dock or bulkhead.

Hmmmmm.

So we're looking for a memorable space, with an iconic design, and a preference for something that looks nice from the river, acts as a lit beacon, and instantly screams "Jacksonville, Florida."

Not easy to do, but I think it's possible.

Forgive my art skills, I'm more of a numbers guy, but I think something like this just might work to fulfill that criteria:


...


...


...


...


...


...


...


...

(https://www.jacksonville.com/galleryimage/LK/20191204/PHOTOGALLERY/120409991/PH/0/1/PH-120409991.jpg)

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ea/55/bd/ea55bd00f812b771b52cb70bcbdf478d.jpg)

Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Peter Griffin on April 02, 2021, 09:33:52 AM
The horse is dead, Ken. No need to keep beating it
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on April 02, 2021, 09:44:39 AM
Sorry KenFSU, you can't build something like the Landing for $12MM to $15MM. We'll also need more than a Jacksonville version of Chicago's Bean (which cost $23MM itself). I hope people pay more attention to Millennium Park and the sum of its parts than an isolated piece of art work. It will be a challenge to design a space that's really "iconic" for such a low budget. Anyway, wish them well.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 02, 2021, 10:31:16 AM
The horse is dead, Ken. No need to keep beating it

Oh, it's been dead for a year.

It's just baffling to me that what Boyer is describing as being a best-case scenario for this new public space is pretty much exactly what Boyer voted to spend $23 million to demolish.

Also baffling that we're speaking of this space as our crown jewel for redevelopment, yet constraining the construction budget to roughly half of the removal budget, including public art.

Equally baffling that - just like we did with Lot J - we're putting the cart before the horse in terms of removing a genuinely useful, popular ramp that serves as a genuine amenity for pedestrians before we even have a site plan for the new Landing or any agreements for private development.

Desperately hoping for a grand slam with the new Landing, but doesn't change the fact that this entire plan was devised on the back of a napkin by the mayor's office, with no public oversight or outside expertise, and has been loyally executed by the DIA - right down to the name and limited private development presence - with no questions asked.

I honestly do try to not be pessimistic, and I think there is some progress with the blocking the tackling, but between the new Landing, the new Skyway, parking decisions, and continued demolition, it's kind of scary how little has been learned from past failures.

Decisions we make on these projects today are going to dictate what our downtown looks like 20 years from now.

And when you look at the budgets for things like the Landing and the Emerald Trail vs. things like U2C and this goofy jail proposal that is still floating around, I don't know.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on April 02, 2021, 11:11:02 AM
^Ultimately, some personnel changes in city hall will be needed. History has proven time and time again that downtown revitalization decisions will be tainted and influenced by things that simply aren't needed at the expense, but added and implemented via personal opinion of decision makers that may not be best qualified to make said decisions. Don't become a cheerleader or get overly optimistic with the future without better understanding the past or seeing change with that dynamic. With that said, try not to be pessimistic but definitely be realistic and don't hesitate to slap the big cups of kool aid being passed out, right out of people's hands.

From a realistic perspective, it's the non sexy, non newspaper headline grabbing policy stuff that is worthy of celebration. Like the incentives update to the historic preservation trust fund. We haven't had the same number of demolitions proposed in the Northbank since that went through. If anything, we should extend the Downtown National Register Historic District to cover adjacent historic areas like LaVilla, so those property owners will have an inclusive and equitable opportunity as well.

In addition, if the gas tax is passed, the local revenue generated from the move is the transformative and game changing element. Yet, there's still tons of work to do to make sure we're not wasting the revenue on foolish projects while not properly funding the right projects. The Landing site would be an example of this. If we want this to be iconic, it's way too early to restrict the cost to something that peer cities throw into regular neighborhood parks. If we want a Bean, then we need to know the cost of the Bean and be willing to throw a similar number into the budget for that item. If we want an iconic park, we need to take a look at spaces we consider to be iconic and be willing to provide funding in a similar price range for a space of our own.

If we're not willing to drop $50MM to $100MM, then let's stop using the word iconic, because we simply aren't getting there if that definition applies to a comparison of similar spaces in peer communities. By the same token, it's also foolish to throw hundreds of millions into moving the jail, when those funds could literally 100% buildout a quality of life project like the Emerald Trail, restore Springfield Park, resolve the convention center dilemma now or give you a real centralized iconic public park to cluster around.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fsu813 on April 07, 2021, 01:14:24 PM
I'd like to start a movement to relocate the orange T-rex statue to the Landing site. This would be the strategic silver bullet move that checks all the boxes.

✔ iconic
✔ unique
✔ public art
✔ engaging
✔ sense of place
✔ pedestrian scale
✔ regional attraction
✔ catalyst for investment
✔ surprisingly low upfront costs

Beach Boulevard sucks. This needs to be it's new home.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 07, 2021, 11:57:34 PM
I'd like to start a movement to relocate the orange T-rex statue to the Landing site. This would be the strategic silver bullet move that checks all the boxes.

✔ iconic
✔ unique
✔ public art
✔ engaging
✔ sense of place
✔ pedestrian scale
✔ regional attraction
✔ catalyst for investment
✔ surprisingly low upfront costs

Beach Boulevard sucks. This needs to be it's new home.

Not gonna lie, I don't hate this idea.

Not necessarily for the Landing, but it'd be fun to have the T-Rex on the river somewhere for all the reasons you listed above.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on April 08, 2021, 12:07:47 AM
^Might add that a dinosaur is a metaphor for the current state of Downtown  ;D.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on April 08, 2021, 08:18:15 AM
^Might add that a dinosaur is a metaphor for the current state of Downtown  ;D.

Part of the reason why I love it  ;D

At least we can blame the endless rubble, blighted buildings, and countless surface lots on an extinction event.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Jason on April 08, 2021, 11:58:34 AM
Should make it a Godzilla statue and we can just blame him for razing half of downtown....
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on April 08, 2021, 12:13:29 PM
I think Godzilla is Curry's spirit animal
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fsu813 on April 08, 2021, 03:57:56 PM
I'd like to start a movement to relocate the orange T-rex statue to the Landing site. This would be the strategic silver bullet move that checks all the boxes.

✔ iconic
✔ unique
✔ public art
✔ engaging
✔ sense of place
✔ pedestrian scale
✔ regional attraction
✔ catalyst for investment
✔ surprisingly low upfront costs

Beach Boulevard sucks. This needs to be it's new home.

✔ Rename the former Landing site "JURASSIC PARK"

These brilliant ideas are all free of charge, btw. I need to be on someone's marketing payroll.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Zac T on April 09, 2021, 11:23:27 AM
Agency Landscape + Planning had a tent at the Jax River Jams concert last night and were engaging people on what type of amenities they'd like to see in a park at the former Landing site. You can call or text 539-3826 to leave recommendations
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Zac T on May 25, 2021, 10:36:06 PM
In response to Hidden Jacksonville's post on Instagram regarding the former Landing site, DDRB board member Matt Brockelman commented:

Quote
There is a big announcement coming June 1 that encompasses this site as well as the riverfront areas on the east side of the Main Street Bridge. I think a lot of people following this will be excited. Stay tuned

Should be interesting...
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on May 25, 2021, 11:45:28 PM
Hopefully it won't get too overshadowed by the statewide political announcement that same day.

And hopefully whatever it is makes some degree of sense.

And is reasonable.

And happens.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on May 26, 2021, 12:09:47 AM
What's strange - and classicly Jacksonville - is that three design firms have been given a largely blank space to work with and have until the end of June to finish concepting.

Would be pretty batty to undercut them at this point with a pivot in direction.

Hoping it's either an announcement having to do with a solid, quality plan for the private development pads, or news of a major donation for the park space.

Not at all suggesting this is it, but there have been some rumors lately that the Jags have started to warm slightly to the idea of development outside of the immediate sports complex.


Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Captain Zissou on May 26, 2021, 12:30:56 PM
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan".  I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on May 26, 2021, 11:03:45 PM
Please forget about Parks and Park space. I hope it has to do with a solid entertainment type of development with residential and some office. Another destination and "place to go" like the Landing was, but better and have more to offer. I know, pipe dream(s), and, it will take a while if this has nothing to do with a park or park space (and I hope not).
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 26, 2021, 11:17:28 PM
First Coast News just had a story about how the Former Landing Site is now a field of brown weeds and dirt.  The City says they "maintain" the lot 24 times a year, and did not respond to questions from FCN about whether there is an irrigation system. The reporter said she spent time walking around the lot and did not see any sprinkler heads.

Who could have predicted that the City wouldn't maintain the lot, and it would turn into dirt and/or weeds?  [well, me for one]
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on May 27, 2021, 07:06:29 AM
I worked from the office yesterday. It did look pretty brown with large areas of dirt. The patch of dirt was where the stage was at for the free concerts in April/May.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on May 27, 2021, 10:39:54 AM
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan".  I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.

You got any more info on this, Captain?

In terms of where/when?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on May 27, 2021, 10:41:45 AM
I worked from the office yesterday. It did look pretty brown with large areas of dirt. The patch of dirt was where the stage was at for the free concerts in April/May.

Post-installation, the city only budgeted $4,000 a year to maintain Riverside Plaza.

Most of that is labor to cut the grass.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Captain Zissou on May 27, 2021, 10:58:16 AM
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan".  I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.

You got any more info on this, Captain?

In terms of where/when?

Florida Theatre.  Doors at 9:30.  Presentation at 10 am.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on May 27, 2021, 11:00:55 AM
^Thanks!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on May 27, 2021, 07:22:12 PM
First Coast News just had a story about how the Former Landing Site is now a field of brown weeds and dirt.  The City says they "maintain" the lot 24 times a year, and did not respond to questions from FCN about whether there is an irrigation system. The reporter said she spent time walking around the lot and did not see any sprinkler heads.

Who could have predicted that the City wouldn't maintain the lot, and it would turn into dirt and/or weeds?  [well, me for one]

Are you surprised? Doesn't surprise me at all.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 27, 2021, 07:24:55 PM
Steve Atkins is making a big presentation on the first about "Riverfront Jacksonville: A comprehensive $1B+ master plan".  I'm guessing that announcement will include something for the landing site.

You got any more info on this, Captain?

In terms of where/when?

Florida Theatre.  Doors at 9:30.  Presentation at 10 am.

Was that today (Thursday, 5/27)? Anyone have a report?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on May 27, 2021, 07:28:33 PM
^Per the Good Captain, it’s 6/1!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 27, 2021, 08:50:42 PM
^Per the Good Captain, it’s 6/1!

Thanks, guess I didn't scroll back far enough.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 10, 2021, 05:10:26 PM
With the Skateboarding World Championship scheduled for Lenny's Lawn in November and DVI looking at an ice skating rink through early January 2022, doesn't look like there's going to be any real urgency to get construction moving on this space after the design competition is complete later this month.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 10, 2021, 07:35:42 PM
Very predictable outcome. Not surprising at all.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on June 10, 2021, 09:05:31 PM
Florida ice skating at the NOGO hole
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 10, 2021, 09:39:13 PM
The ice skating thingamajig will be world class international media coverage and participation; right? All eyes both national and international will be on beautiful downtown Jacksonville with the event being hosted at "Lenny's Lawn;" LOLOL...just playing.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 11, 2021, 11:50:50 AM

I'm curious how well that ice rink would hold up when it hits 77F on Jan 3rd.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 14, 2021, 11:38:16 AM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/downtown-vision-inc-says-a-pop-up-ice-rink-could-come-to-riverfront-plaza (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/downtown-vision-inc-says-a-pop-up-ice-rink-could-come-to-riverfront-plaza)

The JDR article suggests DVI is trying to bring the ice rink in as an annual tradition. "If not this year, then next year." Guess they're going to have to figure out how that fits into a permanent world-class riverfront park.

On its own, it actually sounds like a cool idea to me. They have a performing stage and weekend bar sketched out, so it could be a nice little attraction. Execution is going to be everything, I suppose.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 14, 2021, 01:15:37 PM
Why? What for? I don't care whether it's "pop up" or not, but an ice skating rink in downtown Jacksonville? And on the riverfront on prime property/real estate to boot. We're Jacksonville not Caribou Maine. Southerners and Floridians mostly live in Jax not Northerners last I checked or known. I don't get it. Who in hell comes up with these lain brain ideas?! Certainly not Southerners, or Floridians, probably some pompous butt heads from up North who moved or relocated here and now are integral members of our City Hall and the Mayor's Administration (or Lori Boyer's transplants...don't know where she's from). But this needs to stop. If anything else other than an Office Tower or Entertainment or Shopping Complex gets built there, ensure that it stays within the theme and confines of the South, Florida, Palm Trees, St. John's River, our heritage, our roots, and our history!!!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 14, 2021, 01:17:35 PM
And oh yeah, in case everyone has forgotten or are not aware, we have a park downtown and in the urban core; WE DON'T NEED ANOTHER ONE!!!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 14, 2021, 01:26:39 PM
Lastly, and yes, Tampa has an ice rink. But they have more transplants from up north and everywhere else, and tourists, and snowbirds, and NORTHERNERS to justify building such an abomination in their downtown. We need to keep it real here in Jacksonville as I mentioned two posts ago. Am I upset? Yes I am.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2021, 01:32:22 PM
There will be presentations from the three design firms Thursday, June  24 to the DIA selection committee.
Quote from FB announcement
Quote
The City of Jacksonville will host a public meeting for the Northbank Lawn/Riverfront Plaza FKA Jacksonville Landing Design Competition (P-01-21)
Three firms will present their design proposals and a selection committee will evaluate them. Meeting is open members of the public who may provide input via public comments after each one.
LOCATION:
Jacksonville Public Library-Main Library/Downtown
303 North Laura Street
Multipurpose Room (located in the Conference Center)
By Zoom:
Meeting ID: 870 9609 0165
Passcode: 252453
Schedule:
8:30 a.m. - 10:35 a.m. Agency Landscape + Planning
12:00 p.m. - 2:05 p.m. Olin Partnership
3:00 p.m. - 5:05 p.m. Perkins&Will
Each firm will be allowed sixty (60) minutes for presentation time followed by sixty (60) minutes for questions and answers. Twenty (20) minutes will be allowed for public comments after each design firm's presentations.


Link to Meeting Notice (PDF) can be found on this page: https://dia.coj.net/
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 14, 2021, 02:44:24 PM
There will be presentations from the three design firms Thursday, June  24 to the DIA selection committee.
Quote from FB announcement
Quote
The City of Jacksonville will host a public meeting for the Northbank Lawn/Riverfront Plaza FKA Jacksonville Landing Design Competition (P-01-21)
Three firms will present their design proposals and a selection committee will evaluate them. Meeting is open members of the public who may provide input via public comments after each one.
LOCATION:
Jacksonville Public Library-Main Library/Downtown
303 North Laura Street
Multipurpose Room (located in the Conference Center)
By Zoom:
Meeting ID: 870 9609 0165
Passcode: 252453
Schedule:
8:30 a.m. - 10:35 a.m. Agency Landscape + Planning
12:00 p.m. - 2:05 p.m. Olin Partnership
3:00 p.m. - 5:05 p.m. Perkins&Will
Each firm will be allowed sixty (60) minutes for presentation time followed by sixty (60) minutes for questions and answers. Twenty (20) minutes will be allowed for public comments after each design firm's presentations.


Link to Meeting Notice (PDF) can be found on this page: https://dia.coj.net/
Is the general public welcome to this? Is that conference room big enough to accommodate the general public? I would like to attend and get a feel of the City Leaders, Design Firms, etc., and see how regimented and organized these meetings are, and what is said and the responses from the City. Someone please advise. Thanks.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 14, 2021, 04:43:48 PM
Yes the general public can attend.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 14, 2021, 04:58:17 PM
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 14, 2021, 06:42:45 PM
Yes the general public can attend.
Thank you Lake.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 14, 2021, 07:18:39 PM
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.

If it's the room I recall at ground level, it appears it could accommodate at least a couple of hundred persons in auditorium style seating.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: tufsu1 on June 15, 2021, 02:22:49 PM
Lastly, and yes, Tampa has an ice rink. But they have more transplants from up north and everywhere else, and tourists, and snowbirds, and NORTHERNERS to justify building such an abomination in their downtown. We need to keep it real here in Jacksonville as I mentioned two posts ago. Am I upset? Yes I am.

guys - it would be a temporary installation a few months a year - and given that the "cold" months have fewer festivals, this makes perfect sense!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: tufsu1 on June 15, 2021, 02:25:20 PM
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.

If it's the room I recall at ground level, it appears it could accommodate at least a couple of hundred persons in auditorium style seating.

you can also attend via Zoom

https://www.coj.net/departments/finance/docs/procurement/special-psec-agenda,-june-24,-2021.aspx
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 15, 2021, 02:59:53 PM
The library's website doesn't mention the size or capacity of the meeting room - just the rental rates.

If it's the room I recall at ground level, it appears it could accommodate at least a couple of hundred persons in auditorium style seating.

you can also attend via Zoom

https://www.coj.net/departments/finance/docs/procurement/special-psec-agenda,-june-24,-2021.aspx
Thanks "Tuf," I might just ZOOM in on the conference rather than make a physical show.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: bl8jaxnative on June 16, 2021, 08:18:41 AM

Southern city, few yankees, dowtown ice rink

https://knoxvilletn.gov/government/city_departments_offices/special_events/knoxvilles_holidays_on_ice
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 24, 2021, 09:18:04 AM
So the competition design presentations are today, with a Zoom meeting scheduled from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm. The meeting details were posted, but if you try to join the meeting, you get an error in Zoom saying the host has locked the meeting.

I guess you're only allowed to engage with the process as a citizen if you can afford to take an entire day off work to attend this meeting.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fsu813 on June 24, 2021, 09:58:42 AM
So the competition design presentations are today, with a Zoom meeting scheduled from 8:30 am to 5:30 pm. The meeting details were posted, but if you try to join the meeting, you get an error in Zoom saying the host has locked the meeting.

I guess you're only allowed to engage with the process as a citizen if you can afford to take an entire day off work to attend this meeting.

Apparently you have to login before or after the actual presentations, can't join during. Three seperate presentations today.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 24, 2021, 10:16:06 AM
I ran into the "locked" message earlier, but tried again a few minutes ago, and am listening to the Q&A.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 24, 2021, 11:07:00 AM
Thanks! I was able to get in for the last half of the Q&A as well. The overview they had on the Q&A slide looked nice; I would've liked to catch the presentation. DIA board reactions seemed very positive overall.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: CityLife on June 24, 2021, 01:24:42 PM
Would be nice if they made a recording of the video available to the public after the event for those that couldn't watch live.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 24, 2021, 01:46:44 PM
The Zoom feed says it is being recorded. I hope when they post it, they break it into separate recordings for each team.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 02:11:30 PM
https://www.news4jax.com/video/news/2021/06/24/watch-live-3-design-teams-present-proposals-for-former-site-of-jacksonville-landing/
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 05:22:22 PM
Didn’t get to follow closely, but Perkins and Will’s plan in particular was pretty epic.

Looking forward to watching the full presentations.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 24, 2021, 05:39:08 PM
They said they were going to try to have links up on the COJ Procurement site in the next (work) day or so.  If it were me, I'd put the links on the DIA site, too.  But, they didn't ask me.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 06:31:57 PM
Olin Partnership (out of Philadelphia):
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/riverfront-plaza-design-competition-olin-partnership-ltd-jax-park#photo-12

Agency Landscape + Planning (Camrbridge Mass):
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/riverfront-plaza-design-competition-agency-landscape-planning#photo-1

Perkins & Will (Chicago):
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/riverfront-plaza-design-competition-perkins-and-will-one-park-jax

Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 24, 2021, 06:54:44 PM
I like the Agency Landscaping and Planning from Cambridge, MA rendering best.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 24, 2021, 07:02:19 PM
Perkins and Will would be my second choice; they are not too far off from Agency Landscaping; might be a tie between the two. I like them both but Agency Landscaping is my 1st preference though by the slimmest of margins.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 24, 2021, 07:14:38 PM
Based on the renderings, which might not be the only way to evaluate but is all we have for now, I favor the Perkins & Will design.  Seems to me to be more engaging, a wider range of features, an iconic sculpture and a bit more greenery/shade trees.

The other designs are OK but don't seem as inspired to me.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: edjax on June 24, 2021, 07:18:36 PM
To me Perkins and Will and it’s not even close. 
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: CityLife on June 24, 2021, 07:21:44 PM
On quick glance, I really like the Perkins and Will design. They hit on a lot of the concepts I mentioned as seemingly no brainer ideas (beer garden, splash pad/kids play area, heavily shaded outdoor dining, and open event space) https://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,36872.msg510446.html#msg510446

But they took it to the next level with the Jax sculpture and some other features.  Like I've said along, it will be very easy for these firms to design something far better for the general public than The Landing. Just a matter of whether or not the City will fund it. IMO, a design like this will be far more impactful than a Four Seasons in improving Jax's reputation and drawing people downtown. Really nicely done.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 07:41:05 PM
Just looking a the renderings, Perkins & Will is the clear frontrunner to me.

Both from a design perspective and from checking the boxes in the RFP.

I think it's pretty stunning.

I also think it might be the easiest to get public buy-in on.

Which will be necessary with a $23 to $30 million price tag (depending on whether the sculpture is brushed metal or a mirrored finish).


Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 07:48:18 PM
Presentations/videos:

https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: CityLife on June 24, 2021, 08:00:58 PM
Presentations/videos:

https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv

Thanks for sharing. As a planner that's been involved in some cool waterfront dining and placemaking projects, I'm typically able to pick holes in the process or design concepts of projects like this, but after looking through Perkins & Will's PPT

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/74482335.jpg)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 08:11:08 PM
^100 percent agree.

Video is STUNNING for P&W too.

I don’t think it’s even close.

Hope to see it happen.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 08:31:39 PM
Presentations/videos:

https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv

Thanks for sharing. As a planner that's been involved in some cool waterfront dining and placemaking projects, I'm typically able to pick holes in the process or design concepts of projects like this, but after looking through Perkins & Will's PPT

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/74482335.jpg)

P.S.

As a marketer who builds a lot of decks for national brands, I can't pick any holes in the PPT either.

Frankly, I don't know if I've ever seen a better deck for a Jacksonville project.

This is next level compared to what we typically see here.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fsu813 on June 24, 2021, 08:41:44 PM
Feels like each one is trying to pack A LOT into a relatively small area. The former Landing site doesn't have to be everything to everyone. We have a gigantic amount of other vacant riverfront space, and a significant portion of it will likely be park/public space. It's almost as if we need a master plan, so parks and their purposes aren't planned in silos.....
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 24, 2021, 08:44:18 PM
I still need to finish going through the three concepts but I did catch the Perkins + Will presentation. What was shown will cost more than $30 million. Not saying that's a bad thing, because all of them will end up costing more than what's being said right now at the conceptual stage. In general, from my quick glance, all these projects pretty much offer the same uses and activities, just in different shapes and locations within the space. I will say that the Olin concept seems more like a poor man's version of what's already featured on the St. Pete Pier. With that said, whatever is selected will be fine. Drawing renderings and pretty pictures has never been a problem in this town. Getting something decent funded, built and maintained has and remains our challenge. Any idea of how much the Agency concept is estimated to cost at this point?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 09:02:38 PM
I still need to finish going through the three concepts but I did catch the Perkins + Will presentation. What was shown will cost more than $30 million. Not saying that's a bad thing, because all of them will end up costing more than what's being said right now at the conceptual stage. In general, from my quick glance, all these projects pretty much offer the same uses and activities, just in different shapes and locations within the space. I will say that the Olin concept seems more like a poor man's version of what's already featured on the St. Pete Pier. With that said, whatever is selected will be fine. Drawing renderings and pretty pictures has never been a problem in this town. Getting something decent funded, built and maintained has and remains our challenge. Any idea of how much the Agency concept is estimated to cost at this point?

Estimated costs from the three groups were:

$27 million for Olin.

$23-30 million for P+W.

$3.2 million per "acre of developed land" for Agency.

All three had annual maintenance at $500k to $1 million.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 24, 2021, 09:11:54 PM
I didn't feel the Olin concept prioritized urban examples of activation. Relegating food and drink to the private pads without much of a concept there seemed like a punt on a critical component. The eco stuff was pretty cool, but they came off as a distant third to me.

I think the Agency concept is pretty good, but the art is definitely not rising to an iconic level.

The P&W concept is the most complete and the art is really well done. I LOVE the civic building concept on the one development pad, as well as the beer garden. Both are homeruns. I'd cast my vote for this one as well.

I don't think any of the three will give us one of the great, iconic waterfront parks in the country, but we'll have an asset and attraction for our residents and visitors to enjoy and be proud of. It's worthy of significant investment.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: CityLife on June 24, 2021, 09:17:52 PM
Presentations/videos:

https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/guestaccess.aspx?folderid=0d9f2fc4345b241aa93f899407aa76fb8&authkey=AeypNIdOUXA8KM2rBjpHKoo&e=V8VYtv

Thanks for sharing. As a planner that's been involved in some cool waterfront dining and placemaking projects, I'm typically able to pick holes in the process or design concepts of projects like this, but after looking through Perkins & Will's PPT

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/74482335.jpg)

P.S.

As a marketer who builds a lot of decks for national brands, I can't pick any holes in the PPT either.

Frankly, I don't know if I've ever seen a better deck for a Jacksonville project.

This is next level compared to what we typically see here.

Agreed on it being next level. Just watched the video and you are right, it is stunning.  Earlier in the thread I mentioned that I hope some of the firms put their A teams on the project in hopes that it will be a high profile project for them. Looks like they treated this as a portfolio building, legacy type project that they put a lot of time and effort into.

In looking at the other PPT's, I do like some of the ecological concepts Olin incorporated. Agency's design already looks dated.

This one seems like a no brainer.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: marcuscnelson on June 24, 2021, 09:33:12 PM
Definitely some lovely presentations. And I see the broad consensus appears to surround the Perkins & Will proposal. Hopefully the DIA agrees.

The question I'd ask is, seeing now that stuff like Atkins' Riverfront Jax proposal exists, how could we potentially reconcile those proposed designs? Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 24, 2021, 09:41:01 PM
Is the city taking the Atkins proposal seriously?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 24, 2021, 09:56:46 PM
I don't think any of the three will give us one of the great, iconic waterfront parks in the country, but we'll have an asset and attraction for our residents and visitors to enjoy and be proud of. It's worthy of significant investment.

What I do love is that all of these parks in various stages of renderings and planning incorporate public art.

If the P+W concept wins, and the centerpiece JAX piece is installed, that'd be really cool.

If the Southbank RiversEdge park that is scheduled to start construction after bulkhead repairs are completed includes the 50-foot interactive sculpture from Marc Fornes that the DIA and Preston Hollow have commissioned, that'd be really cool.

If Metro Park incorporates showcase public art, as Mark Lamping says it will, and if the new park that the DIA is negotiating a land swap for Kids Campus for happens and includes the signature public art that Lori Boyer has mentioned, that'd be really cool.

Individually, the public art is nice.

But collectively, having that network of riverfront parks with showcase public art, complimented by Friendship Fountain at St. Johns Park, the Lone Sailor statue on the SB riverwalk, etc. kind of would give Jacksonville something rather unique for its riverfront (e.g. lots of parks, each having a central showcase "thing").

Would be even nicer if the private sector funded the art  8)

Couple of things I love about the "Jax" art piece included in the P+W proposal:

1) In a city that tries so hard to be edgy with nonsense garbage like NoCo and Soba, the "JAX" shorthand of Jacksonville is about as authentic and organic as it gets. It's modern. It distances our identity from Andrew Jackson. Locals actually use it. It's a genuine thing, and I really love how we've started to own it more and more in recent years.

2) The design pays tribute to the river, while also literally reflecting it if we go for a mirrored finish.

3) From a marketing and tourism perspective, it gives Jacksonville our "thing" for tourist photo ops. St. Louis has the arch. Hollywood has the sign. Chicago has the bean. I spent the last four days in Nashville tripping over teenage Instagrammers trying to get their photos with the wings. Might seem gimmicky, but you don't know how many hoteliers I've heard ask for something like this. And it'd be fantastic to have it right in the heart of the CBD to draw in some folks who would otherwise spend their entire stay at the beach.

I also love how the P+W proposal leaves enough flex space to allow some of this stuff that DVI is currently doing (ice skating, skateboard championship, concerts, etc.) to still potentially fit. Not sure the Olin concept does.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on June 24, 2021, 10:46:29 PM

3) From a marketing and tourism perspective, it gives Jacksonville our "thing" for tourist photo ops. St. Louis has the arch. Hollywood has the sign. Chicago has the bean. I spent the last four days in Nashville tripping over teenage Instagrammers trying to get their photos with the wings. Might seem gimmicky, but you don't know how many hoteliers I've heard ask for something like this. And it'd be fantastic to have it right in the heart of the CBD to draw in some folks who would otherwise spend their entire stay at the beach.

I couldn't envision anything that would accomplish this--probably why I'm not in a creative profession--but yes, the JAX accomplishes what you state. In fact, the artist's portion of the presentation was extensive and downright compelling. 12-18 million for the art installation is WELL worth it for that quality. I prefer it to Chicago's bean, personally. And the merchandising angle was not only politically savvy, it legitimately looked good (although the Vegas replica might be a bit much).
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 06:28:27 AM
I still need to finish going through the three concepts but I did catch the Perkins + Will presentation. What was shown will cost more than $30 million. Not saying that's a bad thing, because all of them will end up costing more than what's being said right now at the conceptual stage. In general, from my quick glance, all these projects pretty much offer the same uses and activities, just in different shapes and locations within the space. I will say that the Olin concept seems more like a poor man's version of what's already featured on the St. Pete Pier. With that said, whatever is selected will be fine. Drawing renderings and pretty pictures has never been a problem in this town. Getting something decent funded, built and maintained has and remains our challenge. Any idea of how much the Agency concept is estimated to cost at this point?

Estimated costs from the three groups were:

$27 million for Olin.

$23-30 million for P+W.

$3.2 million per "acre of developed land" for Agency.

All three had annual maintenance at $500k to $1 million.

$15 million for the Agency Landscape one, according to the Jax Daily Record.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/three-visions-proposed-for-the-former-jacksonville-landing

What's hard to determine is what is and is not included in these estimates. I assume that the development pad parts are not. So much of the ground floor retail shown in these would not be included in the estimates presented. Someone should photoshop out those pad parcels, so that we can get a realistic perspective of the numbers and overall development
time frame.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 06:58:48 AM
Quote
3 different visions unveiled for former Landing site

(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing-Park-Competition-/i-n4XKMXj/0/b65c6dda/L/Perkins%20and%20Will2-L.png)

Our partners at WJCT take a look at three different visions recently unveiled for the redevelopment of the former Jacksonville Landing site.


Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/3-different-visions-unveiled-for-former-landing-site/
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Des on June 25, 2021, 08:36:36 AM
I like that P & W leaves the most open lawn area, I think that's an important aspect.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: martt12 on June 25, 2021, 10:23:38 AM
Definitely some lovely presentations. And I see the broad consensus appears to surround the Perkins & Will proposal. Hopefully the DIA agrees.

The question I'd ask is, seeing now that stuff like Atkins' Riverfront Jax proposal exists, how could we potentially reconcile those proposed designs? Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?

I agree. That is if DIA is taking Atkin’s proposal under any consideration.  I was thinking the same thing because his proposal is an answer to other issues not to far away. However,  I definitely like Perkins & Will’s park design the most out of them all.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 10:41:24 AM
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.

The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.

Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 10:55:34 AM
I definitely like Perkins & Will’s park design the most out of them all.

Even putting design preferences aside, if you look at the actual proposals, I don't know how anyone other than P+W can win this thing.

They came for blood with this one.

200-page proposal, built around the exact specs and requirements of the RFP; informed by community engagement and over 600 survey responses; centered on an iconic, Jacksonville-specific public art piece (as requested in the RFP); accounting for everything you could possibly ask for in a proposal from an environmental, topographical, landscaping, and programming perspective.

It's a massive file, but can't recommend looking through the Powerpoint deck enough.

They map the currents of the St. Johns River. They account for the location of the Christmas Tree. They even have mock social media posts and merch featuring the sculpture.

I genuinely appreciate how these guys swung for the fences and immersed themselves so deeply in the process and came back with something so thoughtful, appropriate, and non-generic for the space.

Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Call me an optimist, but I think of all of the projects downtown, the Landing is the one where it's going to be easiest to get public buy-in for something worthy of the space. I'd hope that we'd be willing to spend whatever necessary to get this space right. Worst thing we could do is cheap out on it. I also think there would be a real opportunity to fundraise and get corporate sponsorship for the central art piece.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 25, 2021, 11:46:11 AM
I definitely like Perkins & Will’s park design the most out of them all.

Even putting design preferences aside, if you look at the actual proposals, I don't know how anyone other than P+W can win this thing.

They came for blood with this one.

200-page proposal, built around the exact specs and requirements of the RFP; informed by community engagement and over 600 survey responses; centered on an iconic, Jacksonville-specific public art piece (as requested in the RFP); accounting for everything you could possibly ask for in a proposal from an environmental, topographical, landscaping, and programming perspective.

It's a massive file, but can't recommend looking through the Powerpoint deck enough.

They map the currents of the St. Johns River. They account for the location of the Christmas Tree. They even have mock social media posts and merch featuring the sculpture.

I genuinely appreciate how these guys swung for the fences and immersed themselves so deeply in the process and came back with something so thoughtful, appropriate, and non-generic for the space.

Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Call me an optimist, but I think of all of the projects downtown, the Landing is the one where it's going to be easiest to get public buy-in for something worthy of the space. I'd hope that we'd be willing to spend whatever necessary to get this space right. Worst thing we could do is cheap out on it. I also think there would be a real opportunity to fundraise and get corporate sponsorship for the central art piece.
Yeah, but it costs too much. And Jacksonville doesn't like to spend money, and when it does, it either doesn't spend it the right way or spend it wrongfully. I Aope they pick Agency.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on June 25, 2021, 12:12:27 PM
heights - What is it you like about the Agency proposal over the other two?  If it just cost, then the 'best' solution is to leave the space as it is today - no capital cost, and minimal O&M cost.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 12:52:19 PM
Not gonna lie, totally smitten with this public art concept.

Checks all the boxes for me personally.

Art is obviously subjective, does anyone actively dislike it?

(https://i.postimg.cc/dtgKmSSP/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxXRwFry/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbmW9hwr/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mg4HDVNR/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bvsNN2Mp/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdhhc7Pf/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv8hh2xv/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLGWkLDD/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzB1xgwW/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhM0mbxb/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2ysr6HsD/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vm4yrwGs/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MBLzzsF/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1RJWQnpv/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MNqxh7Y/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4N83kg4D/image.png)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fieldafm on June 25, 2021, 12:53:08 PM
After more review of these plans, I think all will be a lot more expensive than advertised. Especially the Perkins & Will one. That Jax structure alone will likely end up consuming the lion's share, if not all, of the conceptual cost estimate provided. There's also some complex engineering involved with some of the aspects of these proposals like the recreation of marsh like conditions that will end up raising the prices once they really dive into design.

The numbers expressed remind me of the estimates being tossed out for the Emerald Trail during the initial stakeholder committee meetings. I thought the consulting planner was pulling numbers out of his ass because in the real world projects that I have been involved with, the cost back then were nearly twice as high. As time went on and the conceptual unknowns became knowns, the cost did dramatically increase and that increase was a lot more than material costs going up. Much of it was just starting off with totally unrealistic estimates. Btw, the same thing applies to JTA's U2C.

Even with the estimates produced to date, the range makes these apples and oranges (i.e. yes, a $30 million project should be better than a $15 million one). I hope the selection committee and city will take all this into account and be prepared to set aside the proper funds needed to construct and maintain a first class space. Let's not get heartburn when we find ourselves in the $50 million range.

Setting aside the proposed building on the PAD site (which as envisioned, could probably top $80mm  by itself)... I think the Perkins & Will plan would be more in the range of $65mm-$85mm with value engineering, and with annual operating and maintenance costs in the $5mm range.  That $65-85mm figure doesn't include the unrealistic marsh creation.

Another very important point to make as far as timelines- COJ has just started down the legal process to take back Sisters City plaza from Mainstreet Capital Partners.  All of these plans are based on the City taking back possession of Sisters City Plaza and subsequently realigning Hogan/Water/Independent Drive in order to create a larger site (and potential PAD site).  It took COJ more than 4 years to go through the process of taking back the East parking parcel from Sleiman (COJ lost that ruling, btw).  Courts currently have pretty sizeable backlogs due to the pandemic.  I think you are talking a minimum two years just to get a sense of whether that parcel is even in play.


For perspective, the price tag for all of the bulkhead work along the Northbank Riverwalk from CSX to Berkman is now well over $50mm.  Additional perspective comes from the recently completed St Pete Pier Park, which had a price tag of about $3.6mm/acre.
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-virtual-tour-of-the-new-st-pete-pier/)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fieldafm on June 25, 2021, 12:53:56 PM
As an aside, Dupont will be releasing their draft plans for the Shipyards space today.

Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fieldafm on June 25, 2021, 12:59:58 PM
I think the Perkins & Will art piece certainly exceeded what the DIA specifically wanted. It is very nice.

I would prefer it to say 'Bold City' instead of 'Jax', but that's likely much harder to script out legibly.  With the Shipyards/Met Park proposals, these proposals on Lenny's Lawn and the Friendship Fountain proposals... you are talking what would approach North of $200mm in public funding along the riverfront... which would unquestionably live up to the moniker of the 'Bold New City of the South'
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fieldafm on June 25, 2021, 01:01:06 PM
One more point... there is an existing company in town that REALLY wants to build an office building on one of those PAD sites. 
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: CityLife on June 25, 2021, 01:12:48 PM
Not gonna lie, totally smitten with this public art concept.

Checks all the boxes for me personally.

Art is obviously subjective, does anyone actively dislike it?

It's pretty hard to dislike it. I posted years ago that Jax should do something similar to Amsterdam with the name Jax as an iconic place to take a photo downtown...but never even conceived that something like this could be pulled off. It's beautiful and actually BOLD.

(https://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/i/aa/2019/03/i-amsterdam-sign-fb.jpg)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Jason on June 25, 2021, 01:20:39 PM
Perkins & Will = WOW!!!!!

They can use any of the other proposals but with the "JAX" art and it would be a win for me. 
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 01:50:33 PM
Hope we make the right decision and don’t just automatically pick the one that best fits into the city’s scant $15 million budget.

Worries me a bit that the decision is going to be fairly unilateral.

We describe the decision of what to do with the Landing as generational, but literally only two people are scoring the proposals and selecting a winner - Lori Boyer (DIA) and Daryl Joseph (Parks and Rec).

For something this important, I almost wish they’d have a window for public voting and use said public sentiment as one of the variables in the scoring rubric.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 02:15:45 PM
That's the rough part that they'll have to address. If Agency knew the budget was $30 million, would aspects of their design change? Anyone know what the parameters of the competition were and if a $15 million budget was one of them?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 25, 2021, 02:36:16 PM
It's pretty hard to dislike it. I posted years ago that Jax should do something similar to Amsterdam with the name Jax as an iconic place to take a photo downtown...but never even conceived that something like this could be pulled off. It's beautiful and actually BOLD.

(https://www.dutchamsterdam.nl/i/aa/2019/03/i-amsterdam-sign-fb.jpg)

CityLife, you read my mind with this post.  I actually have a picture of myself and wife with the Amsterdam sign.  So many people want pictures with it all day long that it's almost impossible to see the full sign at once.  I note that people are bundled up for cold in the picture you have posted and it looks late in the day so probably off-season and off-day for the hordes of tourists.

For those who have never visited, that's the amazing and immense Rijksmuseum, the Netherlands' version of the Lourve or Metropolitan Museum of Art, in the background.  It is among the greatest art museums in the world and features the largest collection of Dutch masters including Rembrandt.  Adjacent is another great museum, the Van Gogh, which features the largest collection of his paintings in the world. 

Love Amsterdam and look forward to, hopefully, a return visit.  Another city that Jax leaders could learn much from in terms of city planning, historic preservation, mass transit, resiliency, etc.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 02:57:57 PM
That's the rough part that they'll have to address. If Agency knew the budget was $30 million, would aspects of their design change? Anyone know what the parameters of the competition were and if a $15 million budget was one of them?

Exact language given to applicants was:

Quote
Budget to be determined based on design, but a placeholder budget of 10-15 million is being proposed for inclusion in next year’s capital plan.

I believe the insinuation was also made that the above budget was for the park itself, and that public art should be broken out separately and would likely come from a different funding source.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 25, 2021, 03:07:44 PM
heights - What is it you like about the Agency proposal over the other two?  If it just cost, then the 'best' solution is to leave the space as it is today - no capital cost, and minimal O&M cost.
heights - What is it you like about the Agency proposal over the other two?  If it just cost, then the 'best' solution is to leave the space as it is today - no capital cost, and minimal O&M cost.
No, it's a personal preference choice; i just like the look of Agency over P&W; they both basically have the same things in their proposals; but I just like Agency's presentation look better. I know the pricing will change as time goes on (cost), but the the cost had nothing to do with my choice. They all will probably be in the same price range after all is said and done.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 03:17:28 PM
Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?

One more piece to consider is the adjacent "Music Park" at the T-U Center, which (insert grain of salt) is supposed to be funded and under construction by Q1.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NM5VNFk0/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yd49GrFS/image.png)

Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: vicupstate on June 25, 2021, 03:30:48 PM
While we are on the subject of public art and icons, I always thought it would be a great idea for Jacksonville to incorporate both into the entrances to the city on I-95 (North and South) and I-10.  The city limits will never move, so it is an option that many cities don't have in the same way.  The three sites could each be different, but be a variation on a theme. You could also extend it to a location in DT as well, for a total of four sites.  Someone a lot more artistic than me would have to come up with the design/theme, but if done right, I think it would have a big mental impact and raise the city's profile.  All of the city limit points are 'out in the middle of nowhere' with nothing really around them currently. They would all be hard to miss.  One idea would be to incorporate neon lights to piggyback with the lighted bridges/buildings DT.
     
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: fsu813 on June 25, 2021, 03:58:10 PM
Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?

One more piece to consider is the adjacent "Music Park" at the T-U Center, which (insert grain of salt) is supposed to be funded and under construction by Q1.


No, no, no. It's much better to piece meal it, plan all these various public riverfront spaces in silos.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 04:49:12 PM
RE: Park
Suppose we drop the Riverfront Jax park design entirely, how could something like Perkins & Will's design then fit into that space? How might that affect the proposed city share of that project? Can we make these ideas work together?

One more piece to consider is the adjacent "Music Park" at the T-U Center, which (insert grain of salt) is supposed to be funded and under construction by Q1.


No, no, no. It's much better to piece meal it, plan all these various public riverfront spaces in silos.

Details are starting to come out about the Shipyards park that will be created via land swap when Kids Campus is developed by the Jags.

Remediation will cost $2 million (half of which will be covered by the feds, half of which will come out of the $13 million we have squirreled away for remediation already), and will involve adding a two-foot cap across the site (three-foot cap in the portion where the Fire Museum will be relocated to).

Hope is to combine the Fire Museum, Orleck Museum, and USS Orleck into a "Hero Park," and to reclaim some of the submerged land for park space or floating amenities.

Design and riverwalk reconstruction would potentially come out of next year's budget, with full construction costs maybe being allocated the year after.

Will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Best case scenario is that all the parks end up being awesome.

Worst case scenario is that all of these park projects stretch a finite budget thin enough to where they all get half-assed.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on June 25, 2021, 05:13:10 PM
^Here you go!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zNDkMWn/0/X3/i-zNDkMWn-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XGwghqB/0/X3/i-XGwghqB-X3.jpg)

There's a few options for Metropolitan Park. I have to get on the road to head back to Jax. I'll upload them later.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on June 25, 2021, 07:17:23 PM
I think the Perkins & Will art piece certainly exceeded what the DIA specifically wanted. It is very nice.

I would prefer it to say 'Bold City' instead of 'Jax', but that's likely much harder to script out legibly.  With the Shipyards/Met Park proposals, these proposals on Lenny's Lawn and the Friendship Fountain proposals... you are talking what would approach North of $200mm in public funding along the riverfront... which would unquestionably live up to the moniker of the 'Bold New City of the South'

I would fully support spending $200 million or even a good bit more to create all these parks on this level.  And, that's above and beyond the force multiplier of the Emerald Trail.  I have no doubt the ROI will be far more than spending similar magnitudes on Lot J, U2C or any of our interstate projects.  The demand for housing, office space and tourism Downtown, not to mention the boost in civic pride (our excuse for subsidizing all the asks by the Jaguars that will far exceed this over time) and ultimate increase in tax collections would make it all worthwhile. 

Let's not squander this once in a hundred years opportunity and make it happen!  Future citizens will also be thanking us for decades to come.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxjags on June 25, 2021, 08:13:22 PM
Plus add in the potential for SE Development plans for Riverfront Jacksonville and you have the potential for a "game changer." Seriously, if we want to step up to the big league we need to find a way to do all of this: The Riverfront Plaza, Riverfront Jacksonville, the Shipyards (with MOSH as the star), 1st Downtown, and the Emerald trail. Civic Jax needs to step up and as one of the lowest taxed cities in the US, the citizens need to step-up.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on June 25, 2021, 08:45:27 PM
Thanks for sharing, Ennis!

These park plans are all so looking so promising.

Mike mentioned earlier that there's a local company dying to build office space on one of the Landing pads.

I think we'd see similar interest across the riverfront if some of these parks come to fruition, which would hopefully save us some money on the back end by not having to incentivize every development with tax rebates and cash grants.

What's exciting to me is that - though I've been burned many times getting my hopes up - it feels like there's reason to believe that we'll actually see movement on some of these parks in the next two years.

Met Park: The Four Seasons plan flew through the first DIA vote today, and goes before the entire DIA for an easy yes vote on July 7th. There's no way City Council doesn't push this one through nearly unanimously. Met Park is absolutely pivotal to the luxury hotel development. The Jags are committed to making it a showcase park and an event epicenter, and the city will be committed to funding the marina revamps. Feeling like this one has to happen. Looking forward to seeing what the Dupont folks suggest for Met Park.

MOSH: MOSH is KILLING IT with their capital campaign. They've already shattered what they hoped to raise from the private sector, and should have no issues securing the remaining funding from the city (which already earmarked $20 million for MOSH Genesis) and state. They've been meeting with three design teams from three national/international firms (based in London, Omaha, and Detroit) in the last few months, and should have their architect secured within weeks. Feels like this thing is moving full speed ahead, and MOSH has a smart plan for phased construction. Plans calls for a huge setback from the river, with lots of greenspace. Again, feels like this one is destined to happen.

Hogans West Park: Lori Boyer thinks this one is going to start fast. This is because the Jags can't develop Kids Campus without an actual park in place to replace it (not just a grass field, but an actual park). There's talk of actually funding this park first next year, and then funding the marina upgrades the following year, in order to get things moving quickly on the park swap. Remediation is only expected to cost $2 million, which still leaves $11 million in the remediation coffers for other portions of the Shipyards (MOSH, Phase II of the Jags project, etc.).

The Landing: There's $15 million in the CIP earmarked for a new park at the Landing. Sounds like there's going to be a lot of red tape logistically with the site, but I feel like there's going to be a real will to get this one done. Might take a while to get started, but I have confidence it'll happen. And I think the public art centerpiece will gets a huge chunk of its funding from private donors.

Music Park: Same thing. 60% design plans are in, full design plans should be in by fall, money has been set aside for it for the last two years, Performing Arts center is super engaged, CSX is on board, feels like (similar to St. Johns Park), though it's dragged, it's gotta get started eventually.

St. John's Park/Friendship Fountain: Already underway.

The District/RiversEdge riverfront park: Fully designed. Public art has been commissioned. The DIA and city are on the hook to construct it once the bulkhead work is complete at the site, regardless of how slowly private development progresses.

Emerald Trail: FULLY FUNDED via the gas tax with the first phase projected to be under construction next year.

Won't happen overnight, obviously, but if all of these things fall into place, we could be looking at a radically different riverfront by 2025.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on June 25, 2021, 10:44:28 PM
^Here you go!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-zNDkMWn/0/X3/i-zNDkMWn-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-XGwghqB/0/X3/i-XGwghqB-X3.jpg)

There's a few options for Metropolitan Park. I have to get on the road to head back to Jax. I'll upload them later.
LOLOLOLOL...HERE YOU GO...HA HA HA HA.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 19, 2021, 12:31:00 PM
I've not seen any real public discussion of the presentations since they were given, but isn't a selection supposed to be made this month? Possibly at Wednesday's DIA board meeting? Anyone have insight or info on where this process stands?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 19, 2021, 06:37:39 PM
I've not seen any real public discussion of the presentations sinceeet they were given, but isn't a selection supposed to be made this month? Possibly at Wednesday's DIA board meeting? Anyone have insight or info on where this process stands?

Thursday.

Won’t be at the DIA meeting, but rather a special Professional Services Evaluation Committee meeting.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Zac T on July 20, 2021, 10:45:30 AM
If you would like to express support for any of the park designs, you can email gpease@coj.net and state which design you prefer and why. The feedback window for the public closes Wednesday, July 21st at 5pm.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 20, 2021, 04:23:15 PM
Thursday.

Won’t be at the DIA meeting, but rather a special Professional Services Evaluation Committee meeting.

If you would like to express support for any of the park designs, you can email gpease@coj.net and state which design you prefer and why. The feedback window for the public closes Wednesday, July 21st at 5pm.

Great info, thanks to you both.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: JeffreyS on July 20, 2021, 11:16:34 PM
Still a 40 million dollar patch of grass where the landing used to be for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 22, 2021, 10:24:51 AM
Perkins & Will gets the nod
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 22, 2021, 11:12:53 AM
Perkins & Will gets the nod

Great job by the committee in making the correct choice.

P&W clearly checked all the boxes (though I'm surprised Agency was so close at #2).

Video, if anyone missed it the first time:

https://vimeo.com/567172349
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 22, 2021, 11:35:09 AM
The public vote was 5 to 1 for Perkins & Will.  That appears to have put them over the top.  Thank God for public inputs 8)!

Quote
...Downtown Investment Authority CEO Lori Boyer said ultimately the scores were close between Agency Landscape + Planning's design and Perkins & Will's design. She said there were several factors that put Perkins & Will over the top.

Boyer said input from the public weighed approximately 5 to 1 in favor of the Perkins & Will proposal, called One Park Jax. The design proposal includes a 151-foot high sculpture that spells out "Jax," which was another factor in choosing that plan.

"Love it or hate it, people were talking about the sculpture. That kind of attention is part of our goal in terms of downtown activation," Boyer said in the meeting.

As previously reported, the cost of construction is around $12 million. The art installation proposed for the site would cost between $11 million and $18 million depending on the materials chosen — giving a total cost of $23 million to $30 million, with a maintenance cost of around $1 million per year....

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2021/07/22/new-design-for-site.html?utm_source=st&utm_medium=en&utm_campaign=bn&utm_content=ja&ana=e_ja_bn&j=24524443&senddate=2021-07-22
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on July 22, 2021, 01:12:33 PM
Good. Hope we all get to see it and even more, enjoy it.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 22, 2021, 02:31:43 PM
Fingers crossed we don't cheap out on the finish.

Mirrored or bust.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on July 22, 2021, 05:43:35 PM
Congrats to the winning team. I'm still highly skeptical about that cost estimate, so I hope the city commits the necessary funds when its revealed that the true cost is two to three times as much.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on July 22, 2021, 06:47:36 PM
Congrats to the winning team. I'm still highly skeptical about that cost estimate, so I hope the city commits the necessary funds when its revealed that the true cost is two to three times as much.
Didn't they say 12 to 18 million dollars? I'll bet it will in fact be much more than that.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 22, 2021, 06:56:19 PM
^Even less than that.

The $11-$18 million is just for the art piece.

Park is in the $12 million range, which feels very low.

Worth noting that, from what I understand, the $100 million in the mayor's budget for the next two years for parks & rec doesn't include the Landing.

Once the city negotiates the agreement with P+W, final design will begin, which is expected to take a full year.

P+W's going to give the city a final cost estimate in time for inclusion in next year's budget, which will be a separate line item in the CIP.

Based on that timeline, feels like we probably won't see dirt turning at Lenny's Lawn until Q4 2022/Q1 2023.

Hopefully the DIA gets the wheels turning quickly on private development (and any road reconfigurations) so that the commercial pads and greenspace can be developed and constructed in tandem.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: acme54321 on July 22, 2021, 07:20:06 PM
The cost estimates for what's shown in that rendering are ridiculously low.  That cut in the seawall with the living shoreline alone would probably cost $12 million these days.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on July 22, 2021, 07:28:44 PM
The Bean was originally estimated to cost $6 million. The Final figures ended up at $23 million. It's only 33 feet high. That was nearly 20 years ago.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 22, 2021, 08:00:11 PM
I do like it, but I wish the front of the parking garage next to the Vystar building can be left room for something. The park facing side of the Wells Fargo building is quite a dead space too. Kind of a shame.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: JaGoaT on July 22, 2021, 10:56:09 PM
Now we need the main street bridge to be converted into a green space thats pedestrian and bicycle only. Main Street Bridge Park!



CAHMPOUND
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 22, 2021, 11:14:59 PM
Now we need the main street bridge to be converted into a green space thats pedestrian and bicycle only. Main Street Bridge Park!

CAHMPOUND

This was done during the Super Bowl here.  It was amazing to see thousands of pedestrians and street vendors take over the closed bridge and Bay Street, from Main to the Stadium, for several days.  Not to mention the jam packed riverwalks and the Landing.

Setups from that event were worthy of being duplicated every weekend since but, this is Jax, and no one learned or salvaged a single lesson from it despite the obvious evidence that, at little cost, these closures would go far to enliven Downtown.  No, subsidizing the Four Seasons for tens of millions will do more  :P.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: JeffreyS on July 23, 2021, 09:13:04 AM
Now we need the main street bridge to be converted into a green space thats pedestrian and bicycle only. Main Street Bridge Park!



CAHMPOUND

Without shops and restaurants supporting it on either side now it will never look busy as it was during the Super bowl.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 23, 2021, 10:35:23 AM
Setups from that event were worthy of being duplicated every weekend since but, this is Jax, and no one learned or salvaged a single lesson from it despite the obvious evidence that, at little cost, these closures would go far to enliven Downtown.  No, subsidizing the Four Seasons for tens of millions will do more  :P.

Why can't it be both?

---

Article on the artist behind the sculpture.

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2021/07/23/meet-the-filipino-american-artist-behind-the-151-foot-jax-sculpture-coming-to-new-downtown-park/

Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: bl8jaxnative on July 23, 2021, 11:07:15 AM


Without shops and restaurants supporting it on either side now it will never look busy as it was during the Super bowl.

I love it when urbanistas say the quite parts out loud --> It's all about the aesthetics.   
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Tacachale on July 23, 2021, 12:12:16 PM
^No, it's about street level vibrancy. That comes from clustering in a walkable setting.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 02:27:58 PM
So, from what I can see, the view of the giant sculpture is designed to be read from the South Bank, and everyone in the CBD will see:

xaJ       

?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 23, 2021, 02:43:12 PM
I suspect a head-on view from the CBD will be obstructed by the Wells Fargo building and the future hotel development on the eastern pad. It will likely look pretty abstract from anywhere on the Northbank, if I had to guess. The video from P&W had some views closer up when walking in and around the sculpture.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 03:07:44 PM
Instead of "xaJ",how about something that looks amazing from any point of view?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 23, 2021, 03:45:13 PM
What is your idea of a piece of public art that appeals to 100% of the people who see it?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Florida Power And Light on July 23, 2021, 03:56:41 PM
Fascinating to see Lori Boyer so enthralled with the Artsy Pipe.

Hey Lori...... the Pharmacy has called and left message- your heavy psychedelic meds refill is ready.

Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Tacachale on July 23, 2021, 04:42:55 PM
What is your idea of a piece of public art that appeals to 100% of the people who see it?

Lol!
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 06:47:50 PM
Spelling "xaJ" in big shiny letters does not meet my idea of a public art piece under any circumstance. It's awful.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Florida Power And Light on July 23, 2021, 07:06:49 PM
A better alternative to fixed giant metal Edifice;
Inflatables! Yes, now that is engineered merchandising!
Will meet any “ Vision” and “ Public Input” parameters.
Current technology provides for  creation and production of Giant inflatable structures.
An inflatable structure device, capable of inflated who knows what, all sorts of designs and images, removed and replaced with a new structure on a moments’notice or whim,could anchor the Landing, and for only a couple millions more $ We will even include the ability to move the Giant Inflatable Image Device off of the Landing property. Maybe even a 400 foot Yacht owned by an NFL Football Team owner, or inland..... Lane Avenue and Park today, the scene of a mid day Convenience Store shooting......after all, that is gettin’ close to Downtown.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: JaGoaT on July 23, 2021, 07:11:45 PM
Instead of "xaJ",how about something that looks amazing from any point of view?


I thought the sculpture shown in renderings was a place holder for a sculpture “that symbolically defines Jax” not an actual Jax sculpture lol
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 23, 2021, 07:19:43 PM
Music Man I totally agree.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 23, 2021, 07:38:46 PM
Here are a few rendered views of the sculpture from the Northbank, MM.

As others have mentioned, it’s going to look abstract from the rear (particularly with how large it is), and most definitely won’t read like a contextless xaJ. Don’t forget, there will also be a water feature on the rear.

Part of the DIA’s judgement criteria for public art was that it had to look interesting from all angles. 

Interesting to hear the debates around town on the piece.

I remain smitten with it, think it’s awesome, and hope it gets built with a mirrored finish.

Two things though:

“The Jax” is a terrible name for it, even if it’s a placeholder.

Also, I’ve heard enough people say that it looks like “sex,” “derp,” or “lex” at a glance that there’s got to be something to it. Hope Jefrë tweaks the final decision enough to where it’s a little more easily legible and can’t possibly to misinterpreted for a word we don’t want it to be misinterpreted for.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbmW9hwr/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mg4HDVNR/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vm4yrwGs/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MBLzzsF/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1RJWQnpv/image.png)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MNqxh7Y/image.png)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 23, 2021, 07:40:51 PM
The charging bull in NYC literally looks like butt from one side and still remains iconic. Some people even prefer their photo op on that side. The world-renowned Chicago bean is an abstract amorphous blob of the same material we're talking about here. And don't even get me started on how the St. Louis arch, viewed sideways, doesn't appear to be an arch at all -- it's just a stick in the sky!!!

Point being, you've every right to dislike the art, but similar criticisms can be leveled at many of the great public art fixtures in the world and it doesn't diminish them in the slightest. Heck, if we get a few million people to come to Jax and make fun of our xaJ while drinking a beer in the park...that's a win.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 23, 2021, 07:56:54 PM
The charging bull in NYC literally looks like butt from one side and still remains iconic. Some people even prefer their photo op on that side. The world-renowned Chicago bean is an abstract amorphous blob of the same material we're talking about here. And don't even get me started on how the St. Louis arch, viewed sideways, doesn't appear to be an arch at all -- it's just a stick in the sky!!!

Point being, you've every right to dislike the art, but similar criticisms can be leveled at many of the great public art fixtures in the world and it doesn't diminish them in the slightest. Heck, if we get a few million people to come to Jax and make fun of our xaJ while drinking a beer in the park...that's a win.

THE HUMANITY  :-\

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3WYWDkN/6-F4-B9-F85-39-C4-4-DF3-9-EE3-CACCCBF872-D8.jpg)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Florida Power And Light on July 23, 2021, 08:02:56 PM
The charging bull in NYC literally looks like butt from one side and still remains iconic. Some people even prefer their photo op on that side. The world-renowned Chicago bean is an abstract amorphous blob of the same material we're talking about here. And don't even get me started on how the St. Louis arch, viewed sideways, doesn't appear to be an arch at all -- it's just a stick in the sky!!!

Point being, you've every right to dislike the art, but similar criticisms can be leveled at many of the great public art fixtures in the world and it doesn't diminish them in the slightest. Heck, if we get a few million people to come to Jax and make fun of our xaJ while drinking a beer in the park...that's a win.

THE HUMANITY  :-\

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3WYWDkN/6-F4-B9-F85-39-C4-4-DF3-9-EE3-CACCCBF872-D8.jpg)

This is Jacksonville at it’s best.
Not near the energy of Consolidation and press images of that time, after all, that period was some sort of Climax, but today’s chants are right in line.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: MusicMan on July 23, 2021, 10:17:42 PM
Those mock up's help. Thank you.  I think id prefer a giant, shiny DNA double helix as a monument to humanity instead , but if 'xaJ' is it, I'll go take a picture with it.  8)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Todd_Parker on July 23, 2021, 10:37:13 PM
Coming soon to a downtown Jacksonville gift shop…

Front of t-shirt: “Jax”
Back of t-shirt: “xaJ”

Problem solved.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 08:39:59 AM
Why I didn’t say anything until now. Fine arts is my field and this piece is kitsch in every way, but I do understand the plus sides as well. I just wouldn’t call it art.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Tacachale on July 24, 2021, 12:42:16 PM
Why I didn’t say anything until now. Fine arts is my field and this piece is kitsch in every way, but I do understand the plus sides as well. I just wouldn’t call it art.

It’s a work of imagination and skill created for aesthetic purposes and/or to express the creator’s feelings and ideas. It’s art. It may be good art or bad art, or high art or low art, but art is what it is.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 06:35:44 PM
Sorry, but it is decorative craft. It does not take part in the long and difficult conversation of the history of art and aesthetics in any way, period.  That being said, I do understand it’s appeal as selfie fodder bringing lots of tourists to Jacksonville. I’m fine with that, but call it what it is. Honestly, I would prefer a Socialist Realism sculpture of Curry, Boyer, and Mickey Mouse holding hands
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 06:38:04 PM
I can say I wish The Cummer and MOCA were part of the conversation. It would be nice to have an Amish Kapoor.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Tacachale on July 24, 2021, 07:17:06 PM
Sorry, but it is decorative craft. It does not take part in the long and difficult conversation of the history of art and aesthetics in any way, period.  That being said, I do understand it’s appeal as selfie fodder bringing lots of tourists to Jacksonville. I’m fine with that, but call it what it is. Honestly, I would prefer a Socialist Realism sculpture of Curry, Boyer, and Mickey Mouse holding hands

What it is: art. ;)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 07:45:18 PM
 ??? ::)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on July 24, 2021, 08:09:53 PM
From Facebook, here is Jimmy Midyette's explanation
Quote
For what it’s worth, it’s layered. The “I” is behind the “J,” which isn’t cursive. The heart doubles as an “a.” Altogether, it’s
I

Jax

and for what it is worth, most of the people commenting don't see it
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Florida Power And Light on July 24, 2021, 08:26:22 PM
Why I didn’t say anything until now. Fine arts is my field and this piece is kitsch in every way, but I do understand the plus sides as well. I just wouldn’t call it art.

It’s a work of imagination and skill created for aesthetic purposes and/or to express the creator’s feelings and ideas. It’s art. It may be good art or bad art, or high art or low art, but art is what it is.

Wonderful.
No public/ tax payer payment.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 24, 2021, 08:31:35 PM
From Facebook, here is Jimmy Midyette's explanation
Quote
For what it’s worth, it’s layered. The “I” is behind the “J,” which isn’t cursive. The heart doubles as an “a.” Altogether, it’s
I

Jax

and for what it is worth, most of the people commenting don't see it

I rest my case
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxoNOLE on July 25, 2021, 12:40:43 AM
Art is just one of those things ... arguing about it is almost as fruitless as arguing on the intern... oh, crap. Nevermind. ;D
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: vicupstate on July 25, 2021, 10:20:37 AM
This discussion reminds me of a segment I saw on TV once. A 'famous' NYC artist created a 'piece' that was a urinal without the plumbing.  That was it. It wasn't painted or anything, there was nothing else to it. Just a urinal without the silver plumbing pipes. It sold for $1 million and that was decades ago, when that was even more money than it is now.     
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 25, 2021, 10:43:09 AM
Jeff Koons after Marcel Duchamp Fountain.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 25, 2021, 10:46:16 AM
I believe it might be.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 30, 2021, 02:52:04 PM
Already a lot of weirdness going on with the Landing space.

The DIA put out an RFP with scoring criteria heavily weighted toward public art.

Perkins & Will were selected as the winner, per the DIA, because of the central "Jax" art piece scored significantly higher than public art proposed by the other two.

Quote
Boyer said the three teams scored consistently in many of the criteria and it was the public art proposed by Perkins&Will that put it over the top.

“I think the inclusion of that monumental piece of art really threw Perkins and Will over the top,” said Lori Boyer, CEO of DIA. “Love it or hate it, the public art piece shown in the Perkins and Will design has received a tremendous amount of public comment, which I think really indicates its iconic nature in the sense that you see it, you know it’s there, people are talking about it.”

Meanwhile, at the DIA meeting last night (https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/dia-theres-much-more-one-park-jax-design-art-sculpture-remains-center-attention/ZOPMA7CI2FDLHGWRUV33ISQDTU/), it seems like the DIA might be backtracking from the sculpture that gave P+W the win amid some public backlash, which would negate the entire reason that P+W won the competition.

Quote
The Downtown Investment Authority held a meeting on Thursday and provided an update to the One Park Jax design. While the sculpture has been the center of attention, they say there’s much more to the proposal.

However, head of the DIA, Lori Boyer, said it seems clear among the board they want an iconic, memorable piece of art in the Landing area, saying it would be unique and bold for Jacksonville.

“Make sure we are getting public space right and the uses in it right and programming in it right,” Boyer said. “So, what we have on the ground is much more important for how everyone will use that space than some art piece that we eventually put on top of a platform...

“We will be working with that team to come to an agreement on the contract of design of the park space and that will move forward over the course of the next nine months,” Boyer said. “There will be opportunity for input on the park and if an art piece is a considered part of the park space, as we move through that process. There will be opportunity for input and comment and things like that.”
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: thelakelander on July 30, 2021, 03:27:52 PM
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this thing would be value engineered by the time it's completed years from now. I'm not surprised.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 30, 2021, 05:35:29 PM
I’m not a fan of the piece, but it seemed like the Jax instillation was really popular with the public.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jaxlongtimer on July 30, 2021, 05:46:58 PM
When I go into Word and play with its fonts, I dismiss many of them due to poor readability.  I am sure there may be a more artistic font that is clearer if push comes to shove.

Although, I don't look at this as just saying "Jax."  In fact, when I first saw the concept, I liked it just for the sculpted curves and overall shape.  Finding out that it spells "Jax" was just another way to appreciate it.

If they never pointed out that "Jax" was the point of it, I wonder if it would have the pushback it has from some now.

Sculpture aside, I still think the P & W concept for use of the land was the best of the bunch.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: heights unknown on July 30, 2021, 05:59:57 PM
Looks like a pretzel when I first saw it...a silver chrome looking pretzel. But when I found out it said Jax, I began to like and appreciate it more.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Ken_FSU on July 30, 2021, 06:48:03 PM
When I go into Word and play with its fonts, I dismiss many of them due to poor readability.  I am sure there may be a more artistic font that is clearer if push comes to shove.

Although, I don't look at this as just saying "Jax."  In fact, when I first saw the concept, I liked it just for the sculpted curves and overall shape.  Finding out that it spells "Jax" was just another way to appreciate it.

If they never pointed out that "Jax" was the point of it, I wonder if it would have the pushback it has from some now.


Agreed, and that was a part of the overall intent of the piece.

Would highly recommend watching the artist talking about the sculpture during P+W's presentation to the city.

It's at the 45:30 mark here.

Really interesting stuff.

https://coj365-my.sharepoint.com/personal/rmezini_coj_net/_layouts/15/onedrive.aspx?originalPath=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb2ozNjUtbXkuc2hhcmVwb2ludC5jb20vcGVyc29uYWwvcm1lemluaV9jb2pfbmV0L19sYXlvdXRzLzE1L2d1ZXN0YWNjZXNzLmFzcHg%5FZm9sZGVyaWQ9MGQ5ZjJmYzQzNDViMjQxYWE5M2Y4OTk0MDdhYTc2ZmI4JmF1dGhrZXk9QWV5cE5JZE9VWEE4S00yckJqcEhLb28mcnRpbWU9YUQ3RUlhdFQyVWc&id=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments%2FP%2001%2002%20Northbank%20Lawn%20Riverfront%20Plaza%20FKA%20Jacksonville%20Landing%20Design%20Competition%2FMeeting%20Recordings%2F03%2E%2020210624%20Riverfront%20Plaza%20Design%20Competition%5FPart%203%2Emp4&parent=%2Fpersonal%2Frmezini%5Fcoj%5Fnet%2FDocuments%2FP%2001%2002%20Northbank%20Lawn%20Riverfront%20Plaza%20FKA%20Jacksonville%20Landing%20Design%20Competition%2FMeeting%20Recordings

Hope it gets built with some slight modifications.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: jcjohnpaint on July 30, 2021, 07:17:26 PM
Jax is Rad had quite the discussion going on about the piece on Instagram. It was nice because the maker was part of the conversation.
https://www.instagram.com/p/CRpW_7-j2B9/ (https://www.instagram.com/p/CRpW_7-j2B9/)
Some of my students were part of the debate. I stayed out of the conversation since I don't have anything productive to add.  8)
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: JeffreyS on July 31, 2021, 06:15:08 AM
Unfortunately it looks too similar to letters. That the artist needs to explain how it isn’t what it appears to be is a fail. When designing a visual piece of art how it looks (without explanation) should be considered IMO. The basic concept is fine just change it enough so that it doesn’t look like letters or is intentionally letters. Accidentally looking like letters just seems foolish.
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: bl8jaxnative on July 31, 2021, 03:10:20 PM

The city has removed a previous fad of the day - indoor shopping - and replaced it with the current fad of the day --> instagram "art"


have to give them some credit for a type of consistency, no?
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Charles Hunter on August 02, 2021, 08:48:42 AM
It seems even London can swing and miss at an 'iconic public space' idea (from Smithsonian)
Quote
London officials had grand visions for the Marble Arch Mound, a temporary installation that opened this week next to one of the English city’s iconic landmarks.

Designs for the attraction depicted a lush, foliage-covered hill rising over the bustling shopping district of Oxford Street and greenery of Hyde Park. The mound’s purposes were numerous and lofty: to entice visitors back to the area as Covid-19 restrictions lifted, provide a new perspective of the neighboring Marble Arch and emphasize the importance of urban green space in the fight against climate change.

But those plans, it seems, have all gone downhill.

...

Public criticism of the site was swift and rather merciless, with people comparing it to “awkward bits of land in ‘The Sims’” and a “bad Santa’s grotto.”

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/widely-mocked-london-tourist-attraction-closes-two-days-after-opening-180978330/?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email&utm_placement=newsletter
Title: Re: DIA wants the Landing to start with a park
Post by: Fallen Buckeye on August 02, 2021, 09:17:46 AM
I like the concept of the art installation, but the execution may need to be refined.

The other piece I'm worried about is having a situation similar to London's "Walkie Talkie" building where the sunlight reflects off the structure in unexpected ways (especially if it's the mirror finish). There are a few concave sections that I could see potential issues with focusing light on to surrounding structures and potentially causing fires or damaging something. At the very least, the reflections could be quite a nuisance to surrounding offices.

Maybe we can do an additional RFP to artists specifically for the public art portion and start construction on the rest of the park with that space set aside until a winner is chosen?