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Community => Politics => Topic started by: marcuscnelson on October 15, 2020, 03:07:04 PM

Title: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: marcuscnelson on October 15, 2020, 03:07:04 PM
https://www.news4jax.com/news/politics/2020/10/14/rutherford-deegan-square-off-in-only-televised-debate/

Quote
U.S. Rep. John Rutherford, R-Fla., and Democratic challenger Donna Deegan squared off Wednesday evening in the only televised debate in the 4th Congressional District race.

The race for the 4th Congressional District, which covers Nassau and parts of Duval and St. Johns counties, pits Rutherford, a former Jacksonville sheriff who is running for reelection after first taking office in 2017, against Deegan, a former local TV news personality and breast cancer survivor who has gone on to raise awareness and funding for breast cancer research through her annual marathon.

During the debate, Deegan and Rutherford both touched on the coronavirus pandemic, health care, the economy and social justice.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: JeffreyS on October 15, 2020, 09:56:49 PM
Donna was great. I hope enough people watched to make a difference. Her lines about Rutherford’s disingenuous support of background checks for guns he can’t ever vote for and particularly his nonstarter position of high risk pools for preexisting conditions seemed to successfully expose his forked tung.   
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on October 15, 2020, 11:37:18 PM
Deegan was impressive and really appeared to me to trample over Rutherford who's rationale for staying in office seemed to be continuing to be a Trump puppet.  I didn't hear him stand for much more than whatever Trump wants, he is there to deliver.  Deegan seemed to have a real agenda for improving lives on the First Coast and at least trying to proactively tackle serious issues.

Make sure you click on this link to watch the replay of the full debate and judge for yourself:
https://www.news4jax.com/news/politics/2020/10/14/rutherford-deegan-square-off-in-only-televised-debate/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/politics/2020/10/14/rutherford-deegan-square-off-in-only-televised-debate/)

I just don't understand people who vote a straight ticket and not the candidate.  And, we wonder how we get some of the low quality elected officials.  The consequences of the simplistic minds of, and/or uninformed, voting public is really scary.  I can't believe the number of people who keep up with so little news that they are "shocked" to know that a hurricane headed our way for days is only hours away by the time they "wake up" to it.  If they don't even track severe weather impacting their lives directly, imagine how little they know about everything else going on around them or how they might fully understand what their elected officials are really up to so they can be held accountable.  This is how we get buffoons or, worse, dangerous people in power.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: bl8jaxnative on October 16, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
there's nothign realistic about Deegan's claims about stopping covid19.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: marcuscnelson on October 16, 2020, 01:18:59 PM
Would you mind elaborating?
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: bl8jaxnative on October 17, 2020, 03:37:45 PM

Deegan uses the "follow the science" rhetoric to claim that if things were done differently Covid19 wouldn't be an issue.  If confronted they'd claim that they never said that no one would die.  But they're more than happy to profit off of that implecation, that somehow there's some magical policy out there which would lead to different results.

That's not how viruses work.

That's not how humans work.

That's not how policy works.

There may be policy that would lead to better outcomes.  Ironically someone like Deegan who keeps invoking "science" has not meaningful evidence for this.   In fact, as we've seen in the last month, the evidence is counter to the claim.   Those other policies that they followed in the EU and were held up high have lead to worse, not better outcomes when compared to the US.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: MusicMan on October 18, 2020, 09:39:15 AM
Only one or two nations have had a worse outcome than the US.  Our peer nations have had much better outcomes.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: Snaketoz on October 19, 2020, 08:57:56 AM
As long as we are led by people like our current president and senate, money is the only factor to choose.  The rush to reopen has only lengthened the time to recover.  Sometimes you have to swallow the bitter pill to get the needed result.  In the long run, had we had a more strict quarantine mandate we wouldn't have this yo-yo result we're beginning to see, especially in the colder states.  Science over politics!
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: tufsu1 on October 19, 2020, 10:37:03 AM
Those other policies that they followed in the EU and were held up high have lead to worse, not better outcomes when compared to the US.

The countries of Europe have about 750 million people combined - and are now averaging around 100,000 cases per day in the second wave.
The US has 330 million people and is now averaging 60,000-70,000 cases per day.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: simms3 on October 20, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Those other policies that they followed in the EU and were held up high have lead to worse, not better outcomes when compared to the US.

The countries of Europe have about 750 million people combined - and are now averaging around 100,000 cases per day in the second wave.
The US has 330 million people and is now averaging 60,000-70,000 cases per day.

Not to nitpick your numbers, but the Eurozone, which you're right, does have about that many people, saw the following new case/death loads:

Today: 150K/1,780
Yesterday: 138K/1,068
2 Days Ago: 145K/956

The United States' numbers over the same period:

Today: 54K/798
Yesterday: 57K/442
2 Days Ago: 49K/477

So on a 3-day rolling basis, Europe is tripling our new case load and doubling our deaths.

I don't think we are doing so badly on that [coronavirus] front.  If we want to talk about economic measures, we are doing significantly better than our European peers, and that is with some of our largest and most important states still largely locked down.  I can't stand the idea of looking at the coronavirus in a vacuum.  There is simply so much more to life than the fear of death from one disease who's death rate has come drastically down.  Being open and free to make your own decisions regarding your own precautions is far more important to me.  The nanny state mentality has me pulling my hair out.

My family on my mother's side is Swedish and it has been interesting talking with them about the pandemic and how they tackled it.  Of course, conveniently, the leftists in this country who normally LOVE Sweden and everything it is about are silent at best and critical of its decisions to remain open and free this whole time.  I wish we had stayed open and free!
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on October 21, 2020, 01:34:35 PM
^I understand your perspective but consider the following:

(1) As you note, when this started, fatality rates were higher. 
(2) As a new virus in humans, little to nothing was known about it's impact on those infected.  The only information was what was obviously observed which was significant death rates and illness and being highly contagious.
(3) Being free for yourself and impacting others severely needs to be balanced.  If everyone would wear masks, socially distance, wash hands, etc. maybe we could be more "free."  Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population is selfish and uncaring endangering those around them.
(4) Due to politicization by our president, information and recommendations regarding COVID have been muddled causing confusion and fear in the population at large.
(5) This administration has prevented the US from having a coherent, thoughtful, clearly communicated, well coordinated and executed national plan for dealing with COVID, thus leaving it to thousands of overwhelmed local communities to figure out on their own how to respond and to do so with much less information and resources than available at the Federal level.  The wide range of "solutions" has only served to further divide us and sow mistrust as to the best way to proceed.

The sum total of the above is our reaction to COVID  in the US has been clumsy and remains an evolutionary process.  No one of any background or belief wants to quarantine, wear masks, social distance, etc. "for the fun of it."  We all want to get back to "normal" as soon as possible.

But, there is a significant portion of our population with preexisting conditions, aging, vulnerable genetics, etc. that demands that the rest of us show some respect for our neighbors, friends and family by making some interim sacrifices until this gets resolved with a vaccine, cure and/or effective treatments.  That doesn't mean giving up our freedoms but it does demand compromising our lifestyle for the common good (as we do regularly via our laws and regulations) by using best practices to avoid being a spreader to others around us.

If we would all work in unison to support the best practices (starting with everyone wearing masks in public spaces and avoiding creating "super-spreader" situations) for dealing with COVID, we would all be better off both with respect to our health and our freedom.  Unfortunately, we are not at that point up until now so continue to expect significant trade offs between our health and freedom concerns.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: tufsu1 on October 21, 2020, 04:49:41 PM
So on a 3-day rolling basis, Europe is tripling our new case load and doubling our deaths.

I don't think we are doing so badly on that [coronavirus] front. 

let's talk again in a week or two

As an example of the virus running rampant after summer activities, Israel had 9,000 cases in one day about five weeks ago. That would be like the US having 340,000. Their positivity rate was over 15%.

They went through a second stringent lockdown, and the results are encouraging. Their cases are down to 1100 a day and the positivity rate is down to 2.5%. The Israel exit strategy has multiple phases, each at least two weeks long, so they can track any flare-ups. 
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: simms3 on October 22, 2020, 05:33:57 PM
jaxlongtimer and tufsu:

Ok let's talk.  Nothing will change my mind.

We live in the United States, where 50 states operate independently from one another.  Governors are free to do as they wish.  Just because NYC is having a heavy case load in one instance does not mean Montana should be locking down.  I am glad our president didn't "take over" any private companies in order to produce and distribute PPE, ventilators, and soon to be (hopefully) vaccine.  He did not need to, and our private sector really stepped up.  I am happy that Florida is open.  Those of us depending on that for income and livelihood are probably all in agreement.  I feel terrible for the states and cities still largely shut down!  Shame on those governors and mayors.  I'm sure the virus will clear out on November 4, though.

Furthermore, I believe that locking down is simply delaying the inevitable, as evidenced by the fact that every time a geographic area locks down and then reopens, cases spike.  We should be living as if this virus is here to stay and here for us to deal with.

Thirdly, I believe that death rate and hospitalization rates are FAR more important than case counts.  I had COVID and had minimal symptoms.  Most people I know who had it had zero symptoms (I had the flu simultaneously - the first case for Jacksonville of the year actually).  People are forgetting that a bad flu season can easily kill 50K-75K mostly elderly patients in a single winter.  We don't lock down for that.  Numbers wise, while every death is tragic, a few multiples of that, also mostly elderly, is not a sufficient reason to me to lock down the whole economy and deal with the significant repercussions of that.

I love my grandmother as much as anyone else and I am a kind-hearted person, but I deal in reality and logic.  The Democrats have proven themselves to be the party of lockdowns and COVID hysteria.  I am no fan of Rutherford, only because what has he done?  Not sure.  But I will vote for him this year simply because he has a R in front of his name and I have zero tolerance for what the Democrats have been doing or pushing for.  This will be the first time I am voting for Republicans in 10 years.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on October 22, 2020, 06:58:20 PM
Simms, just to be clear, you and all those you know always wear masks away from home, socially distance, and avoid creating superspreader events?

And, you are sure that all those you come in contact with are doing the same?  Further, when you are in enclosed spaces, you know that the air filtration systems are not further spreading COVID?

And, as a taxpayer, you don't mind paying for the extraordinary costs to our society to care for those unable to cover their medical expenses when they get COVID?  Or to pay higher insurance premiums if your health insurer needs to do the same?  Or paying for the long term health impacts many will experience for the rest of their lives?

And, you don't mind a lack of first responders who are not available due to having COVID, or worse, dying from COVID due to treating those who get COVID.  This also means when you have a medical need, hospitals and medical professionals may not be able to treat you appropriately impacting the health of you or your loved ones due to being flooded with COVID cases.

Equating the seasonal flu with COVID is a flawed comparison based on every report I have seen from scientists and doctors.  You are fortunate that your symptoms were mild (although you never know if you will experience side effects later in life as they are still evaluating that).  I suspect you are a younger person and believe you may be invincible.  Good for you.

As I stated earlier, no one wants a lock down.  But, on some level, it comes down to pay me now or pay me later.  I can tell you there are large numbers of our society that will not go out (self locking down) until they see a cure/treatment/vaccine and/or widespread compliance with best practices.  As a result, the economy will not return to full speed until we achieve that standard.  The sooner we address the issue the quicker we can also get back on track.

I don't get your comment about taking over companies.  I didn't see any particular party advocating that but did see discussion by many of all stripes about our dependency on China and other countries for protective masks and ventilators which did put the idea out there that U.S. companies might have to convert production to meet demand.  In the end, it looks like many did it voluntarily so it was never a sustainable issue.

You have also politicized the issue by saying it is D's vs R's.  That is exactly what's wrong with much of our problems today.  COVID doesn't care about politics.  As COVID is likely to spread faster in more densely populated areas such as cities, and most larger urban areas are led by D's, maybe they have to take steps a rural R leader doesn't need to impose. Many lock downs were implemented (by both R'sand D's) to "flatten the curve" so hospitals were not overwhelmed to the point where medical resources would fall far short of demand.  COVID also doesn't respect political boundaries, so when people travel, they can impact "clean" populations.  By example, most island societies, such as Hawaii and the Bahamas, have locked down and/or have very strict travel protocols that effectively make travel untenable for most.

Lastly, I wonder if your grandmother sees things the way you do regarding COVID.  I hope you stay healthy but you should respect that many do not share your approach and lack of concern for the spread of COVID.  That's why a significant majority of this country, regardless of party, believe the D's have a better plan to manage the situation than R's.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: simms3 on October 22, 2020, 09:02:46 PM
https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid

Scroll around 60-70% down to a chart titled Coronavirus: Case Fatality Rates by Age.  In it you will see the case fatality rates for all the decades leading up to age 80+ in 4 countries (South Korea, Spain, China, and Italy).

It's 0-minimal until you get to 50-59.  For the age range 50-59, within these 4 countries, the fatality rate ranges from 0.4% to 1.3%.  That means at the 1.3% case fatality rate, of all KNOWN COVID cases in China in this age range, about 1/100 died.  It's a risk.  It's deadly.  But I still don't think that it's at the level that we need to shut down people's lives and lock up.

Once you get past this age range, you get to people who are generally retired or working less, already benefiting from fixed income such as social security, and who are going out to bars/clubs A LOT less.  They don't generally have school-aged children at home.  The list goes on of natural built-in risk mitigants.

To me it seems much more prudent to take this virus in stride, have confidence in our hospitals and pharma/biotech companies to develop treatments and perhaps that vaccine, and not spend our days worrying and freaking out.  For most of us, the statistics are on our side.  Very few people under the age of 50 have died from this thing, though many many many have caught it.

I can't stand how wimpy we have become and how much fear is being peddled and lapped up by the general population.  Just live your life and deal with things as they come!  We are the freaking United States.  Other generations have dealt with much worse, and many more things.  If this is the worst thing we have to deal with and we can't handle it, God help us.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 23, 2020, 07:25:50 AM
Locking down bars and restaurants or other such businesses only hurts small business owners and low wage employees.  Wash your hands... wear your mask... and stay distanced. Unlike China or other less free countries we cannot force people to do these things.

I didn't hear Simms equating Covid and the flu.  He is pointing out the facts regarding flu death rates.  Transmission and symptoms are very similar between the two.

Initially I thought DeSantis reopened Florida too soon... I think he did the right thing now...
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: marcuscnelson on October 23, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I'm not getting into the actual discussion, I'm just confused about this:

Ok let's talk.  Nothing will change my mind.

Not quite sure how productive a conversation it can be when you start right off the bat saying no one will convince you of anything.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: tufsu1 on October 23, 2020, 02:35:36 PM
Thirdly, I believe that death rate and hospitalization rates are FAR more important than case counts.  I had COVID and had minimal symptoms.  Most people I know who had it had zero symptoms (I had the flu simultaneously - the first case for Jacksonville of the year actually).  People are forgetting that a bad flu season can easily kill 50K-75K mostly elderly patients in a single winter.  We don't lock down for that.  Numbers wise, while every death is tragic, a few multiples of that, also mostly elderly, is not a sufficient reason to me to lock down the whole economy and deal with the significant repercussions of that.

COVID has officially killed nearly 225,000 people. The CDC notes mortality is at least 300,000 higher than recent years, so the total could be higher. AND THAT'S WITH SOCIAL DISTANCING AND RESTRICTIONS! Sorry but COVID isn't the flu.

As to hospitalizations, they are up in most states....and Florida is starting to rise again. So maybe just like in March, the US explosion will follow Europe by 2-4 weeks. That's what my "let's talk comment" meant.

If everyone practiced distancing and wore a damn mask, lockdowns would hardly be discussed.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 23, 2020, 03:26:15 PM
Soooo.... this isn’t China. You cannot mandate or legislate mask wearing and distancing. Are you going to arrest people?  It requires voluntary compliance... something Americans have always been in short supply of...
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: itsfantastic1 on October 23, 2020, 08:08:42 PM
Soooo.... this isn’t China. You cannot mandate or legislate mask wearing and distancing. Are you going to arrest people?  It requires voluntary compliance... something Americans have always been in short supply of...

While I don't disagree with your final sentence, the US and its localities have hundreds of laws that legislates/mandates all types of behavior. Laws against public urination, public intoxication, how many people can be in a building, truancy, mandatory vaccinations...

Conflating a mask mandate with Chinese totalitarians is nonsense. In this country, your rights end where someone elses begin. You can't yell fire in a crowded theater, you can't knowingly expose someone to HIV/AIDS and you have to wear clothes in public; there are laws to punish you otherwise.

Science currently says the best way to handle this virus is to socially distance and wear a mask. Failure to do so may spread the virus to someone else unwillingly, which could result in their death. If people are unwilling to comply with these facts to protect others and stop the spread, then that's exactly when a law or mandate should come in.

We only had to resort to drastic measures like a shutdown because we were unable as a country to stop the spread quickly enough (for many reasons), so science at that time said a shutdown was best. This was an unfortunate consequence of our initial response, not a gleeful display of deep state power against small businesses.

It boggles my mind that following the recommendation of infectious diseases experts and using laws and executive orders to enforce them when not voluntarily complied with, has been twisted into a moral battle on American freedom, especially while we are still in the midst of said pandemic.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 23, 2020, 08:53:42 PM
I think everyone should wear masks... distance... and wash their hands. What I said was... and I stand by it... is NO ONE is going to pass a law with actual teeth that police are going to enforce making failure to comply a criminal offense.

China... CAN.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: MusicMan on October 24, 2020, 10:17:18 AM
Florida has so many at risk individuals it seems prudent to do whatever you can to remain safe. I hate the mask, but I wear it during our concerts cause that's what we have to do to keep our players and patrons safe.

Florida is the biggest and most important swing state, and from what I've seen seniors favor Biden by a little. You'd think Trump and DeSantis would do something to try and correct that.... but they are not.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 24, 2020, 11:16:37 AM
Florida has so many at risk individuals it seems prudent to do whatever you can to remain safe. I hate the mask, but I wear it during our concerts cause that's what we have to do to keep our players and patrons safe.

Florida is the biggest and most important swing state, and from what I've seen seniors favor Biden by a little. You'd think Trump and DeSantis would do something to try and correct that.... but they are not.

Suggestions?  Should they shut down restaurants and bars?  Concerts?
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: Tacachale on October 24, 2020, 12:16:39 PM
Just a note, this is not going to be a forum for COVID denialism or downplaying. Keep up the debate but any comments that veer into denialism or conspiracy territory will be removed.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 24, 2020, 12:34:00 PM
Just a note, this is not going to be a forum for COVID denialism or downplaying. Keep up the debate but any comments that veer into denialism or conspiracy territory will be removed.
Clearly there are differences of opinion regarding openness and restrictions regarding the pandemic. Those differences vary state to state and country to country.  Cultural and governmental realities both aid or abet efforts to mitigate adverse consequences...
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 01, 2021, 07:28:16 PM
Rutherford now says he will join other House Republicans in objecting to the vote by the electoral college.  Rutherford has completed his total transformation into a non-thinking Trump lap dog.  He is buying into Trump's increasingly ridiculous and never proven allegations of election fraud and continues to support Trump's wasteful and divisive actions to undermine both the popular and legal vote of the nation.

Rutherford repeatedly states he believes in bipartisanship but his divisive actions (he also joined Trump in the absurd case to overthrow the election taken to the Supreme Court a few weeks ago) clearly show otherwise.  Another Republican disappointment.  I thought he had some degree of bipartisan respect in the community as sheriff but, now seeing his true colors, feel that he is as much a partisan hack as any.  He joins Curry, Rick Scott and DeSantis as Republicans throwing away their legacies to Trumpism.

Here is Rutherford's explanation for his position:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqqMnyVXYAA7tkV?format=png&name=small)
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: marcuscnelson on January 01, 2021, 11:07:53 PM
Geez, what's with all the embarrassing Trump-riders coming from the First Coast? DeSantis, Curry, Rutherford? What a mess. Especially disappointing how easily Rutherford was re-elected last year.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: JaxJersey-licious on January 05, 2021, 01:13:46 PM
Rutherford now says he will join other House Republicans in objecting to the vote by the electoral college.  Rutherford has completed his total transformation into a non-thinking Trump lap dog.  He is buying into Trump's increasingly ridiculous and never proven allegations of election fraud and continues to support Trump's wasteful and divisive actions to undermine both the popular and legal vote of the nation.

Rutherford repeatedly states he believes in bipartisanship but his divisive actions (he also joined Trump in the absurd case to overthrow the election taken to the Supreme Court a few weeks ago) clearly show otherwise.  Another Republican disappointment.  I thought he had some degree of bipartisan respect in the community as sheriff but, now seeing his true colors, feel that he is as much a partisan hack as any.  He joins Curry, Rick Scott and DeSantis as Republicans throwing away their legacies to Trumpism.

Here is Rutherford's explanation for his position:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EqqMnyVXYAA7tkV?format=png&name=small)

I get that Rep. Rutherford feels the pressure has to go along with Trump's dog and pony show since all the "cool kids" are doing it but that last paragraph has me rolling on the floor breathless from laughter! That is some "Profiles In Courage" type hedging right there!

This stilted reactionary obedience to this Trump issue of the hour from politicians like Rutherford or a Tommy Tuberville and even Donald Trump himself, people that made their livelihood and notoriety in another unrelated field and parlayed their name recognition into running for elected office. Although its de riguer today for Republican politicians to stand up against concepts and fears rather than run for specific policies, these kind of politicians have no wiggle room to run afoul the script given to them and it shows. Did you see Rutherford's wooden performance at his debate last year? At least it was nice of him to chisel out the 5G campaign SIM card from his body to lend it to Kelly Loeffler to plant in her skull for her run for the Senate.

The irony that many of the characteristics voters vilified Hillary Clinton and Mitt Romney for will be key for Loeffler's victory in today's election.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: Charles Hunter on January 05, 2021, 01:46:17 PM
Is Rutherford saying he thinks a majority of the voters in his district members of the Trump Cult?

As a former cop, shouldn't he know about evidence? And that there is NONE for the Trumpian fantasies he has signed-on to.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: marcuscnelson on January 06, 2021, 06:31:08 PM
Well… Was this dark American day worth it, John Rutherford? (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2021/01/06/mob-attacks-us-capitol-john-rutherford-overturn-electoral-college-trump/6569961002/)
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 06, 2021, 06:59:33 PM
I will be at the Supervisor of Elections tomorrow morning to change my party from republican to independent. The Trump nomination was the first straw... this bullshit today is the last straw. I'm done...  there isn't even a party that remotely represents me... but there will no longer be a R next to my name...
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 06, 2021, 07:01:26 PM
Well… Was this dark American day worth it, John Rutherford? (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2021/01/06/mob-attacks-us-capitol-john-rutherford-overturn-electoral-college-trump/6569961002/)

Another great Monroe column calling it like it is.  OUCH!  But, it should hurt and Rutherford should feel the pain.  It's disgraceful how he has attached himself to Trump.

This excerpt hits the nail on the head:

Quote
... I also hope you [Rutherford] are taking a few moments to consider your own culpability in this dark American day. I hope you are writing a forthcoming public apology in your head, and that you are even considering the possibility of stepping down from your post. You are, simply stated, unworthy of the position.

You know what you and your colleagues have done.

You entertained the delusions of a madman, and you succumbed to his will. I won't repeat his name. You indulged his baseless conspiracy theories about a stolen national election, and you were at the ready to endorse his effort to remain in power despite having decisively lost the popular and electoral college votes. You were going to disenfranchise voters, John. These are real voters, who also happen to be real people, but they are apparently not real enough for you because they have a different set of values and a different vision for the country....
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: thelakelander on January 06, 2021, 07:07:51 PM
I will be at the Supervisor of Elections tomorrow morning to change my party from republican to independent. The Trump nomination was the first straw... this bullshit today is the last straw. I'm done...  there isn't even a party that remotely represents me... but there will no longer be a R next to my name...
From another independent, today has truly been ridiculous. The double standard surrounding this circus of hypocrites has been pretty disgusting.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 06, 2021, 07:12:34 PM
Apparently party affiliation can be changed online. I am now an Independent...
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jsjax37 on January 06, 2021, 07:36:18 PM
Wife and I changed party affiliation this morning from R to NPA.  We are done with the uniparty political theatre on the national level, and the republican situation on the local level is beyond disgusting what with the JEA fiasco and now Lot J. Add to that all of the other stuff rammed down our throats the past few years i.e. Jacksonville Landing total destruction as opposed to adaptive reuse, demolition for the sake of demolition with no real plans, etc.

There is a serious lack of leadership in this city.  The last visionary leader Jacksonville had was Jake Godbold.  City after city in the South has passed us by.  Nashville, Charlotte, Tampa and Orlando were once peer cities.  Now we struggle to compete with Greenville, SC, West Palm Beach, St. Petersburg and Birmingham.

It's difficult to be optimistic about politics on any level, and I'm frankly tired of thinking about it.  Politics today seems to attract only sociopaths or those looking for personal enrichment or some combination thereof.  I now know that I am not alone with my disgust of partisan politics locally and nationally, and I am sure that there will be many others reexamining their respective party affiliations.  I don't see either of the major parties being a viable home for me at this point.  I am not a radical by any stretch, pretty much a middle of the road guy.  It's really a shame.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: Snaketoz on January 06, 2021, 07:43:34 PM
I am an NPA voter, as is my wife.  The only bad thing about being an independent is being unable to vote during the primaries.  Had I been eligible, I would have voted against Rutherford twice.  Such an embarassment. 
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: Snaketoz on January 06, 2021, 09:01:48 PM
Just saw this quip after Sen. Mitch McConnell spoke out about the thugs that invaded the Capitol.  (Mitch is just as guilty as Trump for allow this scumbag to bamboozle this nation for 4 years.)  "Mitch spoke like a manure salesman with a mouthful of samples."
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: Tacachale on January 06, 2021, 09:46:01 PM
I was an independent for 20 years. My father and most of my family were all Republicans. Earlier this year I and two of my siblings joined the Democratic Party because it’s becoming increasingly unlikely I can support Republican politicians again.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 06, 2021, 11:26:36 PM
Well… Was this dark American day worth it, John Rutherford? (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/nate-monroe/2021/01/06/mob-attacks-us-capitol-john-rutherford-overturn-electoral-college-trump/6569961002/)

Another great Monroe column calling it like it is.  OUCH!  But, it should hurt and Rutherford should feel the pain.  It's disgraceful how he has attached himself to Trump.

This excerpt hits the nail on the head:

Quote
... I also hope you [Rutherford] are taking a few moments to consider your own culpability in this dark American day. I hope you are writing a forthcoming public apology in your head, and that you are even considering the possibility of stepping down from your post. You are, simply stated, unworthy of the position.

You know what you and your colleagues have done.

You entertained the delusions of a madman, and you succumbed to his will. I won't repeat his name. You indulged his baseless conspiracy theories about a stolen national election, and you were at the ready to endorse his effort to remain in power despite having decisively lost the popular and electoral college votes. You were going to disenfranchise voters, John. These are real voters, who also happen to be real people, but they are apparently not real enough for you because they have a different set of values and a different vision for the country....

Rutherford, on First Coast News tonight, reaffirmed his position to support the objections to the election while condemning the violence at the Capitol.

Rutherford is going to the mat for a mentally deranged president (there is actual discussion of invoking the 25th amendment!) and is willing to fight the will of the electorate, even as his patron saint incites violence, acts dictatorial and threatens our democracy.  So much for a man of laws.  Hope voters remember this in 2 years.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: JaxJersey-licious on January 07, 2021, 12:55:16 PM
What has lead to the tragic events of yesterday was not caused or stoked by any specific individuals but the systemic wholesale default by an entire political organization. In 2016, the GOP realized that there was this potential well of untapped voters Donald Trump energized: Voters long disillusioned by the specter of politics and politicians dismissed by their party elites and ignored by pollsters. And all the party apparatchiks came to the exact same conclusion about this group that if you don't have candidates that match or exceed the rhetoric Donald Trump was espousing...THEY...DON'T...VOTE!!!

As a result, you have GOP politicians doubling down their loyalty constantly looking over their shoulders not just because they fear a mean tweet by the president but they can't rely on the national party having their back in a challenge. What's more disgusting is how the party encouraged having more moderate members to be primaried and monetized these battles raising funds in the guise of helping out these campaigns like a jerk encouraging a cat fight between two of his potential lovers and having people place bets on them.

So this leaves the John Rutherford's of the country stuck in this sad loop of sowing doubt on this election and democracy in general like that old Say No To Drugs video of that monkey feeding itself cocaine denying all other sustenance till it dies. And many have made analogies of Mitch McConnell undoing of his inactions to putting toothpaste back in the tube, but it's more like if the toothpaste was Aquafresh.

That's why I've always been in favor of open primaries. Both the Democrats and the Republicans have compromised themselves in so many ways and it's a shame that people like me and a growing number of voters that choose to have no party affiliation are locked out of this aspect of the democratic process and hopefully the betrayal of the Republican party to what should be fact-based, civil, and free of demagoguery will be a wake up call to how we elect our leaders in the future.   
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: Charles Hunter on January 07, 2021, 01:09:53 PM
<snip>
That's why I've always been in favor of open primaries. Both the Democrats and the Republicans have compromised themselves in so many ways and it's a shame that people like me and a growing number of voters that choose to have no party affiliation are locked out of this aspect of the democratic process and hopefully the betrayal of the Republican party to what should be fact-based, civil, and free of demagoguery will be a wake up call to how we election our leaders in the future.   

I have always opposed open primaries, feeling that the parties should choose their own candidates. I have felt the answer to the parties fielding extreme candidates is to have non-partisan redistricting.  I have now come around. Having open primaries should lead to more moderate candidates, on both sides.  That said, not having experienced open primaries, how does it work? At the polling place, do you request a ballot from one of the parties and only vote in one party? Or, are all the races on a single ballot, so you can vote, in the exciting race for Dog Catcher, for your favorite Republican and your favorite Democrat?
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: BridgeTroll on January 07, 2021, 06:50:59 PM

It's difficult to be optimistic about politics on any level, and I'm frankly tired of thinking about it.  Politics today seems to attract only sociopaths or those looking for personal enrichment or some combination thereof.  I now know that I am not alone with my disgust of partisan politics locally and nationally, and I am sure that there will be many others reexamining their respective party affiliations.  I don't see either of the major parties being a viable home for me at this point.  I am not a radical by any stretch, pretty much a middle of the road guy.  It's really a shame.

For me... this...
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: marcuscnelson on January 07, 2021, 08:39:39 PM
Interesting to see this dialogue in here. It's truly shameful that Congressman Rutherford has decided to throw his lot with the seditionists.

As a result, you have GOP politicians doubling down their loyalty constantly looking over their shoulders not just because they fear a mean tweet by the president but they can't rely on the national party having their back in a challenge. What's more disgusting is how the party encouraged having more moderate members to be primaried and monetized these battles raising funds in the guise of helping out these campaigns like a jerk encouraging a cat fight between two of his potential lovers and having people place bets on them.

That's why I've always been in favor of open primaries. Both the Democrats and the Republicans have compromised themselves in so many ways and it's a shame that people like me and a growing number of voters that choose to have no party affiliation are locked out of this aspect of the democratic process and hopefully the betrayal of the Republican party to what should be fact-based, civil, and free of demagoguery will be a wake up call to how we election our leaders in the future.   

Moderates being primaried has been a symptom even before the Trump era. Look no further than the Tea Party in 2010, and the impact those elected officials have had on the GOP. Not to mention the odds that people like Marco Rubio will be facing Trump-style primary challenges in 2022 and beyond.

I have always opposed open primaries, feeling that the parties should choose their own candidates. I have felt the answer to the parties fielding extreme candidates is to have non-partisan redistricting.  I have now come around. Having open primaries should lead to more moderate candidates, on both sides.  That said, not having experienced open primaries, how does it work? At the polling place, do you request a ballot from one of the parties and only vote in one party? Or, are all the races on a single ballot, so you can vote, in the exciting race for Dog Catcher, for your favorite Republican and your favorite Democrat?

The biggest challenge with open primaries in my opinion is the increased risk of sabotage, by which I mean voters actively choosing the worst possible candidate for one party in order to bolster their own party's chances of success in the general election. Not to mention that it isn't a guarantee that non-party-affiliated voters are necessarily moderates, and might instead make it easier for unaffiliated voters even more radical than the bulk of the party deciding the nominee. Also, primary elections are often sparser in turnout anyway, which bolsters the likelihood of more radical candidates prevailing.

Personally, I'd suggest that ranked choice voting is a better avenue for producing more moderate candidates. It becomes much more likely that the more moderate candidates will be ranked later, which means as 1st-choice radical candidates are stricken by lack of broad popularity, those 2nd and 3rd choice ballots with broader acceptance (but not necessarily excitement) have a better chance of rising to the top.

It's difficult to be optimistic about politics on any level, and I'm frankly tired of thinking about it.  Politics today seems to attract only sociopaths or those looking for personal enrichment or some combination thereof.  I now know that I am not alone with my disgust of partisan politics locally and nationally, and I am sure that there will be many others reexamining their respective party affiliations.  I don't see either of the major parties being a viable home for me at this point.  I am not a radical by any stretch, pretty much a middle of the road guy.  It's really a shame.

(Full disclosure, active Democrat here) My view of politics, especially as I've become more active in it, is that statements like these can be at times a self-fulfilling prophecy. If we abandon politics to being the realm of the corrupt, only the corrupt will ever dare to try. Now, I'm young, and it's certainly possible that I'm simply being naive about a foolish endeavor, but I really do see it as necessary that normal people, good people, try as they can to make themselves heard. I think a saying for it is that "you might not care about politics, but politics cares very much about you." Jacksonville of all places is a pretty stellar example of this. Thanks to our nonsense election dates, turnout is very low, and yet the ramifications of those elections have been severe. From the betrayals of consolidation to the wholesale destruction of downtown, and now the massive giveaways to developers with Lot J, all things that affect our quality of living.

No matter the party, elected officials do at times need to be bullied into following the will of the people, and giving up on vigilance is perhaps the best way to ensure that they are not allowed to get away with not doing so.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 08, 2021, 07:03:44 PM
The outpouring of venom for Trump from all corners of the country is unprecedented other than for terrorists* or countries we have been at war with.

Rutherford will rue the day he associated himself with Trump and did so all the way to the very bitter end.

One can hope that our country turns its back on all the Trump enablers (watch out, like chameleons, some are already trying to blend into the new background) over the next set of elections and at every other turn possible.

*Some may already classify Trump in this category.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: marcuscnelson on January 08, 2021, 09:42:27 PM
Rutherford will rue the day he associated himself with Trump and did so all the way to the very bitter end.

One can hope that our country turns its back on all the Trump enablers (watch out, like chameleons, some are already trying to blend into the new background) over the next set of elections and at every other turn possible.

Will he? Or will the Florida Legislature use their majority to draw him a loss-proof district that is happy to re-elect him in 2022? That seems to be a substantial question right now. We’re all going to see how this country, and especially Republicans, attempt to move on from the Trump era, and we are yet to see if that means true atonement, or falling face-first into whatever his brand of politics evolves into.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: JaxJersey-licious on January 09, 2021, 01:23:22 PM
The main reason I have always believed the key to having a healthy electorate is to have continuous engagement of all voters and what partisan restricted elections tend to do is break that engagement by many voters.

Over the years potential voters have witnessed the likes of far-left activists making it clear the current political system we have is a sham and that they need to go over it's head to get what they want at the same time you have an increasing number of aggrieved voters in constant denial of reality fanning the flames of ludicrous conspiracy theories given tacit approval and even egged on by far-right politicians and ultimately cheering on the disruption and defiling of our political process with almost all of them proud to have a big fat R on their voter card. Many young people in particularly see this and don't want to  have any part of this shit show but the 2020 election was able to get more of them into the fold for the first time and partly because they've seen what's been taken place politically choose to not register with  any political party in unprecedented numbers.

Now a primary system open to all will not guarantee more involvement by an increasingly disillusioned voter base but think of the possibilities this could open up. Wouldn't you rather see John Rutherford in a year and a half looking over his shoulder for the threat of a primary opponent making more noise or one making more fucking sense?
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: bl8jaxnative on January 11, 2021, 03:41:42 PM
meh
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 13, 2021, 02:20:26 PM
Mark Woods joins Nate Monroe in skewering Rutherford for his vote to object and loyalty to Trumpism:

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2021/01/13/john-rutherford-sacrificed-law-and-order-fueling-lawlessness-and-disorder/6630619002/ (https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/columns/mark-woods/2021/01/13/john-rutherford-sacrificed-law-and-order-fueling-lawlessness-and-disorder/6630619002/)

Quote
The law-and-order Congressman helped fuel day of lawlessness and disorder

He’s saying otherwise now.

He is saying his Jan. 6 vote never was about overturning the results of a presidential election.

So it’s worth pointing out that Rep. John Rutherford rang in the New Year by tweeting his support of an effort to do exactly that.

He even laid out the plan....

....Some of the strongest on-air pushback to Rutherford’s statements came from Rick Mullaney. Now the director of Jacksonville University’s Public Policy Institute, Mullaney is a lifelong Republican, legal counsel for three Republican mayors (Ed Austin, John Delaney and John Peyton).

Mullaney pointed to Article 2 of the Constitution and the 12th Amendment. He laid out the history. And he said that in the context of the 2020 election, the Constitution is very clear: Congress did not have the authority to overturn it.

“Congressman,” he said on the show. “The simple question is: Do you believe Congress had the authority to overturn the certified electoral votes of those states?”

“Yes,” Rutherford said. “As has been done six times at least in recent history.”

“With all due respect, it’s never happened,” Mullaney said. “The electoral vote never has been overturned.”....

.....History should show Rutherford now is engaged in rapid revisionist history.

History should show that a congressman whose political career was built on law and order sacrificed both, helping to fuel a day that will go down in American history for its unlawfulness and disorder.
Title: Re: 2020 Congressional District 4 Debate
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 14, 2021, 01:46:10 AM
Let the record show that Rutherford also voted against the second impeachment.