The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: Steve on October 15, 2020, 09:32:32 AM

Title: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 15, 2020, 09:32:32 AM
Quote
The Museum of Science and History, best known simply as MOSH, might relocate from its longstanding location on downtown's Southbank, leaders of the Downtown Investment Authority leaders said Wednesday.

MOSH launched an $80 million fund-raising campaign in March 2019 to renovate and expand its 50-year-old campus near Friendship Fountain. But another option that's been evaluated by MOSH would be to build the museum at a different downtown spot.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/10/14/mosh-considers-moving-museum-jacksonvilles-southbank/3652710001/
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 09:36:23 AM
If the new site for MOSH was next to the USS Orleck and Berkman Plaza, would anyone here be for the move or against it?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Captain Zissou on October 15, 2020, 09:47:08 AM
Considering that the city owns the land, I'd rather MOSH stay where they are as that's a decent use for the space and ties in well to the fountain.  If MOSH leaves, I expect that site to sit vacant for years.

I would rather MOSH move somewhere close to JWJ Park if they were to cross the river, but if the Orleck happens that could be a good synergy of uses.  Around there is also the jail and the coffee plant which are very unfriendly to pedestrians/kids.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Adam White on October 15, 2020, 09:56:39 AM
Considering that the city owns the land, I'd rather MOSH stay where they are as that's a decent use for the space and ties in well to the fountain.  If MOSH leaves, I expect that site to sit vacant for years.

Maybe they could put more apartments there.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 15, 2020, 10:10:58 AM
If the new site for MOSH was next to the USS Orleck and Berkman Plaza, would anyone here be for the move or against it?

I'd have to think hard about it, but my first reaction is I wish they'd stay based on what I know today. On a positive note there's the concept around the Orleck, a potential Naval Museum, potential park space, as well as a few other ideas that have been thrown around like a maritime museum (we used to have one of them, remember).

That's a lot of "concept" and "potential" for my taste. The plans for that area of the Northbank are too in flux in my eyes.  MOSH isn't a concept or potential. It's been around for a very long time and is very well established. I get why some people may have gotten in MOSH's ear - it's one of the few true destinations downtown that is a truly regional draw for people, and if you're associated with any of the other concepts, of course it would be nice for MOSH to be right next door.

I think I get the idea - use the COJ parking lot at Bay and Marsh, and do some sort of structured parking there. That could support a ton of uses across Bay Street. If Berkman II were to be redeveloped into something that had anything other than a loading dock at ground level (i.e. Berkman I) it could connect. Longer term we know the Jail and Police building will likely be relocated, and maybe one day COJ can entice Maxwell House into setting up tours and doing a Coffee Shop.

All of that sounds amazing. Most of that is also crayons on a cocktail napkin, and no idea how to fund that (moving the jail and Police building) is likely $300M+.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on October 15, 2020, 10:20:59 AM
Doesn't all of that land need remediation? Who pays for that?
It seems the Shipyard site would be more prone to flooding than the current site. If they do move, the first floor should either be elevated about the flood plain (based on new climate change models, not old maps).
The Shipyards site will be inaccesssible when there is a game or major event, due to traffic.

I guess you can count me as "against" the move.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 12:00:52 PM
To me, it's hard to be too firmly pro or too firmly anti in the absence of any type of master plan from the city.

My knee-jerk is to be totally anti, as the Museum/Fountain/St. Johns Park/Glass & Vine restaurant seems to be a good example of the clustering complementing uses within a compact, pedestrian friendly setting idea that Lake always champions.

If you remove the foot traffic from the museum, I think you're undermining the city's investments in Friendship Fountain/St. Johns Park and negatively effecting the viability of the restaurant that the city pushed for and is ultimately subsidizing.

To be pro, you need to make a lot of assumptions.

- Would it complement a Naval Museum? Sure, but how long have we been hearing about a Naval Museum being docked at the Shipyards? A decade?
- Would it be a good use of the Shipyards and complement the new Metro Park? Sure, but how long has that land been contaminated without any effort to make it suitable for use? Where's the money coming from to remediate for commercial use?
- Would it complement the new Berkman II plan? Same. How long have been hearing about Berkman 2 plans.

Northbank might work, if a complicated, expensive series of decade or decades delayed projects actually come together - an idea our history doesn't particularly support - but the Southbank is the proverbial "bird in the hand." They have the property. They've got the plan. Friendship Fountain/St. Johns park is funded. Related Group's development looks like it's going to happen. It's a lovely pedestrian stroll from the CBD.

I'm going anti.

UNLESS we're guaranteed an equally compelling use for the old MOSH facilities on the Southbank. Repurpose it as a Southern Rock Hall of Fame/Museum with concert space and events (I think they were already doing Southern Rock planetarium shows), for example, and I think it's an easier sell.

Title: MOSH May Relocate
Post by: sandyshoes on October 15, 2020, 12:18:17 PM
It would be sad to lose MOSH, because not only was that a good field trip, but if they go, how long before the fountain does?  Even if they reno it, there would be a different demographic with another half-empty apartment building as the 'destination' surrounding it.  Very sad. That used to be prime School Field Trip real estate - we usually ended up at Friendship Park (circa mid 1960s - early 1970s) to eat our lunches outside, go climb the turret to view the fountain pump, then go walk around the fountain which would be turned on full blast.  Of course we'd throw pennies in and make wishes before we had to board the bus and return to school.  (I usually wished I was inside that nice cool water instead of standing there broiling...) I ate many a deviled egg sammie and potato chips by the river.    https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/mosh-weighs-relocating-museum-from-its-southbank-site-in-downtown-jacksonville/ar-BB1a3PWZ?ocid=msedgntp

Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: tufsu1 on October 15, 2020, 12:46:42 PM
If the new site for MOSH was next to the USS Orleck and Berkman Plaza, would anyone here be for the move or against it?

opposed. As this site has shown for years, clustering is huge. Fact is, even without The Landing, the core of downtown is Laura Street. MOSH is just across the river...an easy stroll across the bridge or a quick water taxi ride.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 15, 2020, 12:49:02 PM
To me, it's hard to be too firmly pro or too firmly anti in the absence of any type of master plan from the city.

Exactly my issue - I don't believer we'll see one anytime soon. Without it, I'd say no - MOSH should stay where it is.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 15, 2020, 12:50:02 PM
It would be sad to lose MOSH, because not only was that a good field trip, but if they go, how long before the fountain does?  Even if they reno it, there would be a different demographic with another half-empty apartment building as the 'destination' surrounding it.  Very sad. That used to be prime School Field Trip real estate - we usually ended up at Friendship Park (circa mid 1960s - early 1970s) to eat our lunches outside, go climb the turret to view the fountain pump, then go walk around the fountain which would be turned on full blast.  Of course we'd throw pennies in and make wishes before we had to board the bus and return to school.  (I usually wished I was inside that nice cool water instead of standing there broiling...) I ate many a deviled egg sammie and potato chips by the river.    https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/tripideas/mosh-weighs-relocating-museum-from-its-southbank-site-in-downtown-jacksonville/ar-BB1a3PWZ?ocid=msedgntp



In fairness, the apartments really wouldn't (in my eyes) make a difference on the experience you bring up about MOSH. I had that experience too when I was in school.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 01:09:35 PM
To me, it's hard to be too firmly pro or too firmly anti in the absence of any type of master plan from the city.

Exactly my issue - I don't believer we'll see one anytime soon. Without it, I'd say no - MOSH should stay where it is.

It is pretty evident how it is clear it is to why we really need a downtown master plan. The future of sites/places like MOSH, a convention center, JWJ Park, etc. are exactly what would be included, transparent and clear within a good plan.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on October 15, 2020, 01:15:35 PM
This has me reminiscing on how Rouse's original plan for the Northbank involved relocation of museums and development of an aquarium to complement the Landing.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on October 15, 2020, 01:16:25 PM
Yeah, Ken and Charles are on the right track, I think. If there was a really solid, ready to go, money's there master plan for say, moving MOSH to the Northbank next to the Orleck (which is ready to go) after remediation and the new Shipyards park, with maybe room for the JaxAqua proposal (which is also somehow ready to go) and that new Berkman proposal was somehow feasible and also ready to go, and there was a serious plan for what to do with the original MOSH site, then maybe it'd be comfortable. But the risk of supporting a box in a field with no real plan that ultimately doesn't complement anything else seems pretty serious.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on October 15, 2020, 01:19:12 PM
Wait…

https://www.actionnewsjax.com/news/local/duval-county/mosh-announces-plans-new-museum-shipyards/TCV5FYBNEVHJBII4NWDN7SL7MY/

This sounds a lot more serious than "weighing relocation".
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 15, 2020, 01:27:45 PM
Well that escalated quickly.

Maybe there's some super developed plan that nobody has seen. I'll stand by for it.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Todd_Parker on October 15, 2020, 01:30:00 PM
Could MOSH re-brand the Shipyards soil remediation project as kind of a curated, live science exhibit thus making it available for federal scientific/educational grants? Perhaps for an extra fee, visitors could get their own hard hat and hazmat suit and help dig for compacted sludge.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: CityLife on October 15, 2020, 01:44:28 PM
I grew up going to summer camps and sleepovers at MOSH and it holds a special place for me, but when I go there as an adult, it's depressing and dated. With the amount of money they are looking at spending, it's probably easier to start fresh at the Shipyards site than it is to completely repurpose the existing site. I think a new site provides a lot more opportunity to create special views and outdoor/event spaces along the waterfront. Not to mention better opportunities for ecotourism and celebrating the St. Johns. You could run kayak trips up Hogan's Creek and have interactive waterfront aquarium type exhibits. I've been saying for years that there is ZERO market/need for a large-scale standalone aquarium, but that there is a great opportunity to incorporate elements of an aquarium into MOSH. In fact, many science museums have an aquarium type component mixed in.

Moving MOSH to the Northbank gives Jax a chance to truly create something special. IF Lot J and some of the other planned projects on the Northbank happen, the City might have enough synergy and connectivity to start filling in the gaps and creating some vibrancy. 
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 01:46:36 PM
Interesting. Wasn't expecting that announcement to come so quick. Now that it's out, what should be done with a existing MOSH building?

Repurpose for a new museum/attraction, blow it up and expand the park or blow it up for infill development?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on October 15, 2020, 01:58:50 PM
Interesting. Wasn't expecting that announcement to come so quick. Now that it's out, what should be done with a existing MOSH building?

Repurpose for a new museum/attraction, blow it up and expand the park or blow it up for infill development?

This just in from the Mayor's Office: Blow it up and leave the rubble enclosed by a chain-link fence for 13 years, then begin a 2-year process to name a Special Committee to study potential uses for the site.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 02:08:50 PM
Quote
“The presentation of a new site option at the Shipyards property provides an exciting opportunity to reconsider how we will serve Northeast Florida’s citizens and visitors in the years ahead,” said Fafard.

The construction could begin in 2021, pending approval from the City of Jacksonville Capital Improvement Plan.

The funds for the new museum will come from the MOSH 2.0 capital campaign.

“The next iteration of MOSH will serve as a transformative center for science, innovation and humanities in Downtown. We welcome the support of businesses, philanthropists and foundations that share our passion for activating the riverfront, inspiring innovation, supporting critical workforce development and driving tourism to Downtown Jacksonville,” said Jill Davis, Chair of the MOSH 2.0 campaign cabinet.

MOSH wants to continue to build the momentum in downtown from the Northbank plans that has been growing during the Curry administration.
“For nearly 80 years, MOSH has inspired Jacksonville citizens of all ages to embrace the joy of lifelong learning. We applaud the Museum’s leaders for their commitment to Downtown and their bold, innovative vision for the future that will inspire generations and strengthen our reputation as a premier destination in the Southeastern United States,” said Lenny Curry, Mayor of the City of Jacksonville.

I'm not friendly with MOSH leadership, so I don't want to jump to conclusions, but the above paragraph sure makes this sound like a Hail Mary from the Mayor's office to fulfill it's promise of transforming the stretch of the Northbank between Berkman II and Met Park.

Is there money for MOSH in the current CIP?

If this is happening, it would be a fantastic goodwill gesture from the Jags to throw in some serious cash.

How easy would it be for Shad Khan to write a check for $10 million and present it to the MOSH to reinforce all that talk about how he's committed to the community and what's good for downtown is good for the Jags. I mean, if VyStar can throw in $2.5 million without a second thought...
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Papa33 on October 15, 2020, 02:11:57 PM
I'm hoping this is part of a strategic plan for the area and not just a random move with a lonely building in the middle of the shipyards.  I'm sure we'll get some details.  Surprised there was little or no community input (none made public, at least).
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 02:54:04 PM

I'm not friendly with MOSH leadership, so I don't want to jump to conclusions, but the above paragraph sure makes this sound like a Hail Mary from the Mayor's office to fulfill it's promise of transforming the stretch of the Northbank between Berkman II and Met Park.

Is there money for MOSH in the current CIP?

I believe there's $20 million in the CIP for a Northbank attraction. I assume its for MOSH.

There could be some good synergy created with the USS Orleck and the proposed relocation of Metropolitan Park. You're looking at a space that will be well above $100 million in construction costs though. A big conversation needs to take place with the future of the current MOSH space and the park next door. IMO, it would make sense to halt Friendship Fountain renovation until we figure out the future of the existing MOSH building.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on October 15, 2020, 03:03:15 PM
I'm hoping this is part of a strategic plan for the area and not just a random move with a lonely building in the middle of the shipyards.

Get ready to be disappointed, then.

But seriously, it sure would be nice to actually see a master plan for what exactly is supposed to happen. I guess we're not supposed to expect that under Curry, but still…

There could be some good synergy created with the USS Orleck and the proposed relocation of Metropolitan Park. You're looking at a space that will be well above $100 million in construction costs though. A big conversation needs to take place with the future of the current MOSH space and the park next door. IMO, it would make sense to halt Friendship Fountain renovation until we figure out the future of the existing MOSH building.

The takeaway here is that we're likely going to spend $100m+ anyway, so we should actually really take a moment to think about how this should be done, and do it right. I hate the word "game changer," but this is one of those moments where you can lay the groundwork for something truly iconic and foundational if you take even a second to have a real plan. It might not be St. Petersburg, or Lakeland, but it could be something cool.

But, alas… Jacksonville.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: sandyshoes on October 15, 2020, 03:32:36 PM
Just for future consideration if they do reno the fountain, it might be nice to have the splash park nearby, like they had in the middle of The Landing, and I think there was also one at old Metro Park.  And some of those mist-cooled areas, like they had/have at the Zoo.  They could build an additional,  smaller 'waterworks' type building for maintenance, and maybe have a little oasis type place where you could get snow cones or fountain drinks. 
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 03:43:48 PM
Just for future consideration if they do reno the fountain, it might be nice to have the splash park nearby, like they had in the middle of The Landing, and I think there was also one at old Metro Park.  And some of those mist-cooled areas, like they had/have at the Zoo.  They could build an additional,  smaller 'waterworks' type building for maintenance, and maybe have a little oasis type place where you could get snow cones or fountain drinks.

I think you'll like the new design, if built.

It incorporates a lot of these features.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: blizz01 on October 15, 2020, 04:52:23 PM
Planetarium? 
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: itsfantastic1 on October 15, 2020, 05:36:08 PM
I hope MOSH is able to expand their exhibit offerings as well as expand the history component (including the local and neglected stories) of the museum by relocating. I also hope the building is somewhat architecturally stunning, as opposed to a value-engineered glass box.

Personally, I think MOSH gets better synergy being on the Northbank near other attractions but considering their current neighbor is being upgraded now; this seems suspiciously timed as if someone/something else is already in mind for the MOSH site.

If only the city had a single, unified plan. Searching COJ Downtown Master plan yields like 5 different agencies plans. Also the timing of these things seem to happen too piecemeal to really build off one and other.

I guess technically the DIA could be considered a master downtown plan. https://downtownjacksonville.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CRA-Plans.pdf (https://downtownjacksonville.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CRA-Plans.pdf) But that has MOSH as part of integrating with Friendship Fountain. So we aren't following that.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on October 15, 2020, 05:54:30 PM
They call the CRA plan the master plan but if it is, it's a bad one. That thing doesn't identify a site and implemention schedule for things that will drive private sector development like a convention center or revamp of JWJ Park. It also fails to identify visionary planning elements like streets that should be retail vs others that should be service. It also lacks a vision for an area like Ashley and Broad in LaVilla. It creates more questions about downtown's future than it resolves, IMO.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on October 15, 2020, 06:29:45 PM
WOW. I was going to say leave it on the Southbank, and if they did move, how about the empty Landing property; but...this just eradicates everything else; hope it works out.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 06:57:41 PM
More deets from the JBJ.

Full article: https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/10/15/mosh-shipyards-future-uncertain.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_28&cx_artPos=0#cxrecs_s

Quote
MOSH on the Shipyards

While specifics were slim – Fafard said the project is in its earliest stages and renderings haven’t been completed – he said preliminary plans for the project include an approximately 129,000-square-foot, three-story building across a four-acre parcel of the approximately 30-acre Shipyards property.

The MOSH 2.0 redesign anticipated expanding the existing facility from 77,000 square feet to 120,000.

“The larger footprint would not only allow us to bring in larger traveling exhibits, but also allow us to expand on some of our permanent exhibits,” Fafard said. “We’re constrained by the footprint that’s available to us – so we need a slightly larger footprint and kind of a blank canvas. We get to really sort of reimagine what the experience would be like for the community and for visitors.”

He added that the larger property would provide opportunity for outdoor activities and could tie in with the Riverwalk park system – and it would also synergize with existing activities on the Northbank, such as TIAA Bank Field

“It could be you that you visit the Museum and then go to see a ball game or the Jaguars play,” Fafard said. “It really fits into the whole development of what's going on in in the Northbank.”

The Mosh 2.0 Capital Campaign sought to raise $20 million for a complete redesign and renovation of its existing facility at 1025 Museum Circle on the Southbank – a project that was estimated to cost between $80 million and $90 million. The $60 million to $70 million needed after fundraising was complete was expected to come from grants and other funding sources.

Fafard said the plan to move to the Shipyards would stay within that cost estimate – and it could even be slightly cheaper.

“For the total project, we’re still estimating it to be between $80 and $90 million – that’s cradle to grave, that’s the entire project,” Fafard said. “When we get to the actual design phase, we do expect to realize some cost savings because we won’t have to rehab an existing building – but we’re not exactly what that’s going to be yet.”

He added that the Museum has raised approximately $7 million towards their goal so far, and added that they’ve identified a significant portion of the remaining $13 million in public and private sectors. Fafard also noted that donors to the campaign – including VyStar Credit Union and PNC Bank – have been pleased with the idea of moving to the Shipyards.

“They are excited, to put it mildly,” Fafard said.

Park questions:

Before that project can move ahead, though, the city has to firm up what it wants to do with the Shipyards property.

In August, Shad Khan’s Iguana Investments’ previous development agreement for the property – as well as the adjacent Metropolitan Park – expired. At the time, Boyer told the Business Journal that the expiration of the deal wasn’t a sign that Iguana had lost interest, but rather that it was a procurement issue.

When the agreement expired, the mayor's office withdrew a bill that would have removed development restrictions on Metropolitan Park, with Chief of Staff Brian Hughes saying "the bill is no longer necessary."

Boyer said she anticipates hearing from the National Park Service within the next 30 days, and from there the path forward highly depends on their answer – and the answer isn’t just a simple yes or no.

She said the National Park Service could opt to only take a certain parcel, it could express interest in the entire property or it could say no to the property all together.

"Maybe in the next 30 days, we’ll hear something as to whether that might be an acceptable piece of land – and if it is, then you start refining the details,” Boyer said. “If it is [acceptable], then that goes to the board and you’d say ‘OK, the National Park Service said they’ll consider it, are you willing to do it?’”

She also said that development of the property needs to take into consideration how it impacts the broader picture of long-term downtown development.

"Do we want a park there, does putting a park on the Shipyards property substantially increase the value of the jail site when we relocate the jail?” Boyer said. “That’s the question that we have to look at if we meet the threshold.”

Boyer said one of the few specifics she knew about the Museum’s proposal to relocate was that they wanted to acquire the property at no cost – and it wouldn’t be taxable property.

Furthermore, she said what MOSH plans to do with their current facility is equally important.

“We want something experiential there – whether it’s another museum, whether it’s a hotel or a restaurant or a food hall. You could think of a bunch of different things that it could be,” Boyer said. “I personally would want to see something adjacent to the park or an expanded park in that location with a restaurant on it, back against the street.”
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on October 15, 2020, 08:46:50 PM
Doesn't all of that land need remediation? Who pays for that?

Fun, genuinely cool fact:

There's been talk that we might be able to repurpose rubble from the Berkman II to help cap/remediate certain portions of the Shipyards property.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxlongtimer on October 15, 2020, 11:27:40 PM
I don't know if moving MOSH is good or bad.  I hope their board is putting MOSH's interests first and not being browbeaten by the Mayor or his cronies who (cynic in me says) have some ulterior motives to help more of his major supporters.  I am looking for the other shoe to drop here like who gets the sweetheart deal to takeover the existing MOSH building/site and/or if this is something to boost the faux Bay Street "innovation" corridor that lacks "innovations" of consequence or if somehow this can benefit Khan's interests.

Given the speed, lack of transparency and no master plan for this move, one has to wonder what's really up here.

Time will tell but Dorothy, this isn't Kansas - it's Jacksonville!
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: acme54321 on October 16, 2020, 08:40:45 AM
MOSH's space constraints have been known for some time so I feel that's a valid reason for the relocation.  I also think the ship museum is a terrible idea, but it's less terrible if it is right behind a new and improved MOSH.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Jagsdrew on October 16, 2020, 08:44:19 AM
I'm all for development and there's been no short of news the last 5 days about it.

But I think we really need appropriate development.

If MOSH moves across to the shipyards, why can't the USS Orleck be a part of that? Or the Jacksonville Fire Museum? I just think MOSH can bring these altogether and really emphasize the "H" in it's name.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 16, 2020, 09:02:20 AM
Cleary this has been in work for some time, so there must be SOME thought behind this. But a true implementation plan? Clearly not.

I'm still not in love with this idea, but I'm SLOWLY warming to it. As long as they do it right.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Papa33 on October 16, 2020, 09:14:16 AM
Here's hoping that we do not lose Friendship Park/Friendship Fountain.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 16, 2020, 09:15:15 AM
Thinking more about this....this may be a $150M plan, all in, when you consider:

 - Environmental
 - Parkland Development (you can't just plant grass)
 - MOSH move.
 - Other costs like USS Orleck, etc.

If Curry decided he wanted to spend $150M on this instead of Lot J, I'd be all for it.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 16, 2020, 09:21:32 AM
Here's hoping that we do not lose Friendship Park/Friendship Fountain.

I actually don't think we will. The more and more I listen to Boyer, I think she gets more right then she gets wrong. the Convention Center/Old City Hall property plan doesn't make sense to me, but Hughes didn't exactly set her up well on that one.

I outlined earlier how this could be really amazing. The potential is there. But the potential is there for a lot downtown, and most is unrealized. Why are we going to get it right this time?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 16, 2020, 09:33:27 AM
Instead of a rustbucket no one else wants perhaps a more recent and appropriate ship that was a workhorse in Mayport... The Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate...

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/24342/u-s-to-offer-surplus-oliver-hazard-perry-frigates-to-ukraine-reports
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on October 16, 2020, 10:08:05 AM
I'm still not in love with this idea, but I'm SLOWLY warming to it. As long as they do it right.

Agreed, particularly from the museum's perspective, for a few reasons:

1) They can expand their footprint beyond the space constraints of the Southbank property
2) They can continuously operate and drive revenue throughout construction, rather than closing for two years for renovations
3) With education/care for the St. Johns River being such a big focus of Mosh 2.0, it would be nice for them to actually be on the river, have programming along the river, be able to offer boat tours, etc.
4) And, of course, the $20 million from the CIP that probably wouldn't be available to them on the Southbank doesn't hurt either

Shad Khan's statement gives me some hope that may open up the checkbook to help as well:

Quote
In an emailed statement Oct. 15, Khan said that he’s “all in” on the MOSH proposal to relocate and be “the centerpiece of a new riverfront park.”

“I’ve expressed my interest and endorsement to museum officials and pledge to wholeheartedly and personally support the effort,” Khan said. “Opening a world-class destination like the Museum of Science and History at the confluence of Hogan’s Creek and the St. Johns River would be a spectacular addition to Downtown Jacksonville.”

From a PR perspective, it would be brilliant for Shad Khan to bankroll the proposed Veteran's Park and help with the MOSH. Would earn him so much goodwill with the community leading up to subsequent big asks with the stadium and, inevitably, convention center.

To your point, Steve, I'm curious what the overall price tag is going to be and how it's going to be financed.

For remediation, we've got just under $13 million in a city account already for Shipyards remediation as a result of the LandMar bankruptcy lawsuit. Not sure what type of remediation would be required for museum use, but I do know that the MOSH Shipyards site that they're talking about is one of the more polluted sections of the Shipyards in terms of arsenic and lead and well beyond the threshold for commercial use.

Park, riverwalk, parking accommodations, and any Orleck subsidy probably won't be cheap. Wonder where the cash comes from if we're already borrowing $200 million+ for Lot J.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on October 16, 2020, 10:32:51 AM
From a PR perspective, it would be brilliant for Shad Khan to bankroll the proposed Veteran's Park and help with the MOSH. Would earn him so much goodwill with the community leading up to subsequent big asks with the stadium and, inevitably, convention center.

This is what kills me. To be clear - no one, no matter how much their worth, is ever obligated to give to charity, etc.

But, the man could write a check for an amazing Park, MOSH, and the Orleck this afternoon. To me, if he wrote that check (which would likely be $100M), I'd probably be all in for Lot J, and let him take the tax benefits of a charitable donation while we pay $150M or whatever for Lot J.

Now, I realize he's worth close to 10 figures because he doesn't invest his money poorly.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Bativac on October 16, 2020, 11:45:07 AM
I'm still not in love with this idea, but I'm SLOWLY warming to it. As long as they do it right.

True, it's Jacksonville, what could possibly go wrong? The track record speaks for itself
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on October 16, 2020, 12:09:13 PM
If Curry decided he wanted to spend $150M on this instead of Lot J, I'd be all for it.

Sounds like the city is also considering opening up the purse strings to buy back the three downtown parking garages that Metropolitan Parking Solutions owns.

Total estimated cost - $115 million  :o

$52 million in cash, $63 million in debt forgiveness.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2020/10/14/mps-issues-notice-of-default-to-dia.html?cx_testId=40&cx_testVariant=cx_28&cx_artPos=1#cxrecs_s
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxlongtimer on October 16, 2020, 12:29:36 PM
If this were to proceed, I would think there could be some great synergy with an adjacent wide-open park that catered to kids with a splash park, playground, open field, etc.  Embellish the park with some references via markers or interactive features to Jax history and the river's ecosystem to dovetail with the museum's mission and educate kids in a fun environment.

It would make for a wonderful multi-generational family outing or field trip to both visit MOSH and let kids blow off steam in the park.  Add some kid friendly food outlets in the area and it would generate some nice memories.

By the way, maybe this could somehow also incorporate the music museum the Historical Society is proposing.  I think that Jax could also look into a combined maritime/railroad/air (Blue Angels,  Bessie Coleman, Lindbergh, Naval aviation, old airports, etc.) museum with model ships and trains, maybe a small pond in the park to operate remote controlled boats (see Central Park), etc. Clustering a few museums would maybe benefit all of them above and beyond going solo.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 12, 2020, 05:32:18 PM
MOSH presented some preliminary renderings of their new museum at the Shipyards location, from The Coastal.  I can't tell whether this is the Bay Street or Riverwalk view.
https://thecoastal.com/culture/mosh-releases-conceptual-renderings-for-proposed-northbank-museum/


(https://i1.wp.com/thecoastal.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/mosh-render.png?resize=1140%2C570&ssl=1)
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 12, 2020, 05:52:04 PM
They said it was for illustrative purposes only, and that this design is absolutely not set in any way. I believe this is the Riverwalk view, they talked about a setback from the river.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 06:16:09 PM
I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 12, 2020, 06:19:51 PM
Did the preentation say where on the Shipyards it will be?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 09:31:36 PM
Here's the presentation:

Quote
MOSH presents vision for Jacksonville's Northbank

(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/MOSH-Northbank/i-BtztrKS/0/d29aaebd/L/MOSH-L.jpg)


On November 12th, representatives from the Museum of Science & History (MOSH) presented to the City of Jacksonville Downtown Investment Authority’s Strategic Implementation Committee. The presentation included a rendering, for illustrative purposes only, of their vision for MOSH Genesis — a destination for lifelong learning.

Read More: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/mosh-presents-vision-for-jacksonvilles-northbank/
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 12, 2020, 09:55:38 PM
All the water-related stuff is interesting. Makes me wonder if they're trying to do some aquarium-type things without the heavy duty responsibilities of actually running an aquarium.

Also makes me wonder what those AquaJax guys are up to now.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 12, 2020, 11:21:02 PM
It would be interesting to see what the AquaJax opinions are. It does appear that they are trying to include some aquarium-type elements into the project.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Lostwave on November 13, 2020, 07:25:16 AM
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek.  They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek. 
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 13, 2020, 09:10:08 AM
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek.  They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek.

I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.

From a remediation perspective, the setback probably makes the most sense too.

Based on the preliminary environmental study, depending on the size of the MOSH footprint, we could probably get around having to do much major remediation for museum/park use if the museum was to the east of Hogans Creek.

(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PIFXMX4FOBEDPEU7HDKYI2W4JE.jpg)
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Florida Power And Light on November 15, 2020, 09:02:06 PM
MOSH Standing, presence:
 “Illustration Purposes Only”
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 15, 2020, 09:18:08 PM
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek.  They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek.

I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.

From a remediation perspective, the setback probably makes the most sense too.

Based on the preliminary environmental study, depending on the size of the MOSH footprint, we could probably get around having to do much major remediation for museum/park use if the museum was to the east of Hogans Creek.

(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PIFXMX4FOBEDPEU7HDKYI2W4JE.jpg)

East of Hogan's Creek?  It is hard to read the map legend, but I think it says that dark blue is worse than light blue, and there is more dark blue east of the creek.  Also, part of the east parcel will be consumed by the new interchange between the truncated Hart Ramp to downtown, and Bay Street / A.P. Randolph Blvd.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Florida Power And Light on November 15, 2020, 09:46:45 PM
MOSH Standing, presence:
 “Illustration Purposes Only”
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 15, 2020, 09:55:46 PM
From the presentation I saw it would be in the new met park on either side of hogans creek.  They left space for a museum on either or both sides of the creek.

I don't mind it being set back and mixed into riverfront green space. It's the exact type of cultural attraction that any urban riverfront park worth visiting more than once, will need to anchor it.

From a remediation perspective, the setback probably makes the most sense too.

Based on the preliminary environmental study, depending on the size of the MOSH footprint, we could probably get around having to do much major remediation for museum/park use if the museum was to the east of Hogans Creek.

(https://arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/PIFXMX4FOBEDPEU7HDKYI2W4JE.jpg)

East of Hogan's Creek?

I'd make for a poor navigator.

*West of Hogan's Creek
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 15, 2020, 10:38:32 PM
The parcel directly south of Maxwell House would make most sense, based on the map above.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 16, 2020, 12:23:24 AM
In which case, it looks like the parcels between the mouth of Hogan's Creek and the edge of Berkman 2 are essentially the new museum district.

Assuming you count this space in front of MOSH, the space between MOSH and the Orleck Museum, and all the nasty parts on the other side that will likely stay green-space, it seems reasonable enough to replace Met Park with. The biggest challenge I could imagine would be having to put down the infrastructure to functionally replace Met Park, which I imagine is at least part of what the NPS would ask for.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 16, 2020, 10:15:45 AM
Quote
Shahid Khan and His Family Invest $5 Million in the Museum of Science & History’s MOSH Genesis Capital Campaign

Gift from the Jacksonville Jaguars owner represents largest private donation to date


Nov. 16, 2020 — JACKSONVILLE, Fla. — The Museum of Science & History (MOSH) today announced that Shahid Khan, owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars, and his family have committed an initial $5 million gift to the MOSH Genesis capital campaign — representing the largest private donation to the campaign to date.

Khan praised the Museum’s proposal to build a new museum on the Shipyards property shortly after it was publicly announced on October 15. In a previous statement, he said he was “all in” on the Museum’s plans, and that the new museum “would be a spectacular addition to Downtown Jacksonville.” This gift reinforces Khan’s efforts to bring new development to the region, complementing his vision for Lot J to create a thriving sports and entertainment district surrounding TIAA Bank Field.

“The best downtown districts in the United States include urban parkland and cultural destinations, and we can have that here in Jacksonville with the Museum of Science and History anchoring a new riverfront park,” said Khan. “I’m hoping my contribution to the capital campaign will spark additional commitment from throughout the region so we can get started on a new downtown. I am confident it will, because I know I’m not the only person in Jax who believes it’s time to finally meet and even exceed our potential.”

The Museum announced the launch of its capital campaign in March 2019, with the goal of raising $20 million in community support from individuals, businesses and corporations, foundations and other community stakeholders. Originally called MOSH 2.0, the campaign has since been retitled MOSH Genesis to reflect a new beginning for the Museum as it casts a bolder vision for the institution, as well as the City of Jacksonville.

“MOSH would like to express our sincere thanks to Shahid Khan and his family for committing to this remarkable investment in MOSH Genesis. This gift will not only propel the project forward, but serve as a wonderful example to others,” said Bruce Fafard, CEO of MOSH. “We appreciate the leadership role that Mr. Khan is taking to make Jacksonville a better place to live, work, and play.”
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 16, 2020, 11:26:32 AM
Sounds like someone's trying to get the heat off him. Lot J is getting the crap beaten out of it in polls.

That aside, this is a nice donation, and I'm sure MOSH appreciates it.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 16, 2020, 12:03:31 PM
Good for Khan.

Obviously doesn't hurt that it's good for optics with Lot J on the table, but $5 million is a nice gift.

I quite like the idea of MOSH Genesis and the USS Orleck anchoring the proposed new riverfront park.

There's still the pesky issue of a) getting the feds to sign off on a land swap, b) funding construction of said park.

Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 16, 2020, 12:17:14 PM
^I'd like to see the Fire Museum added to the mix. No one is talking about it but it isn't on the Four Seasons plan. Would hate to see it get demoed for an apartment complex.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 16, 2020, 12:59:53 PM
I quite like the idea of MOSH Genesis and the USS Orleck anchoring the proposed new riverfront park.

There's still the pesky issue of a) getting the feds to sign off on a land swap, b) funding construction of said park.

Right? Turns out clustering uses is good.

How about the city uses whatever endless money pile they're getting the money from for the Landing, Ford on Bay, Lot J, its share of the Hart Ramps, and all that other magical stuff?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on November 16, 2020, 01:56:27 PM
^I'd like to see the Fire Museum added to the mix. No one is talking about it but it isn't on the Four Seasons plan. Would hate to see it get demoed for an apartment complex.

Good point.  Wasn't that originally on Catherine Street anyway?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 16, 2020, 02:46:10 PM
Yes, it was originally on Catherine Street, so a move would possibly put it back pretty close to where its history began.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: JBTripper on November 16, 2020, 06:52:05 PM
Guys, what if MOSH put out these fancy renderings of a new Northbank facility in a bid to secure funds from Khan, only to produce a vastly scaled-back version of what was originally proposed on their current Southbank property?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 16, 2020, 07:22:10 PM
I would be shocked! Shocked, I tell you! Who would do such a thing?!
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxlongtimer on November 16, 2020, 10:46:08 PM
I don't know if moving MOSH is good or bad.  I hope their board is putting MOSH's interests first and not being browbeaten by the Mayor or his cronies who (cynic in me says) have some ulterior motives to help more of his major supporters.  I am looking for the other shoe to drop here like who gets the sweetheart deal to takeover the existing MOSH building/site and/or if this is something to boost the faux Bay Street "innovation" corridor that lacks "innovations" of consequence or if somehow this can benefit Khan's interests.

Given the speed, lack of transparency and no master plan for this move, one has to wonder what's really up here.

Time will tell but Dorothy, this isn't Kansas - it's Jacksonville!

My prediction of Kahn's interest in this project is on the mark.  Yes, it's a nice and generous contribution but my guess is the $5 million may also approximate the incremental costs of moving from the Southbank to a new building on the Northbank making it a wash for the net result.  Wouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move.  If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation.  I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone.  Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong.  Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.

*To add after my post above, just saw this quote in the WJCT article the Jaxson posted:
Quote
MOSH’s leadership cited factors such as the proposed Lot J development nearby at the sports complex and the fact that a new building would eliminate the need to close the MOSH for approximately two years during construction.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 16, 2020, 10:59:00 PM
Not to put down a 5 million dollar donation, but isn't that a "rounding error" of his wealth?

Or, as some have put it, "sofa cushion money"
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 16, 2020, 11:14:43 PM
I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone.

It is genuinely insane how many people don't believe this. You'd never expect it until you run into someone who believes (or at least pretends to) that Gate donates tens of thousands to political campaigns out of the simple feeling that they'd be the best for the job. Actually, let me paste just part of something I got from someone on Nextdoor once.

Quote
Nobody said we should elevate the local Peyton family and Gate above the rest, and nobody would, so that's a stupid and irrelevant conjecture: literally Democratic talking points of both local and national levels (because they're the same ideas, actually).
It's always a good idea to follow the money.  But remember, corporations are made up of people and hire people, which is where the rest of us get our living money...out of this "profit" you assume is bad.  It's not bad...it's your livelihood.  However, profit is bad if you or anyone seeks it above all else to the detriment of others.  Money is not the root of all evil...it's a useful tool.  The LOVE of money is the root of all evil.  Like individuals, corporations...because they are a group of individuals, can persue a money-making livlihood by providing a good, needed service.  Or, they can be toxic in practice or culture.  Most toxic practices are illegal or unprofitable. How will you retain your strength, your workforce, if you don't treat your people well, with respect?
It is unwise and unhealthy to assume all corporations are made up of greedy, heartless jerks just waiting to prey upon the good, innocent worker.  Life is about individual character, and it plays out in private life and in work life.  The truth that "he who is unfaithful in little is unfaithful in much," and "he who is faithful in little is faithful in much" applies here, too. A company can be well run by a benevolent person or team that built it from the ground up or took it over faithfully, or it can be run by narcissistic sociopaths (and employees come in various characters, too).  Those two companies would be very different.  And to treat them the same would be an injustice to the ones striving to run the one with integrity and heart and the greedy heartless ones.  Everything in life comes down to heart, character, and individual choices‐ good vs. bad, or as it has long been called: good vs. evil. It's ultimately that simple- Even in a corporation.

Do you know the inner workings of Gate Petroleum?  Are they run by a family who prizes the employees and treats them well, like the Green family, or are they not?  That determines if their support is good or a potentially bad indicator.  Anything else is either naiveté or class warfare that pits the owners against the workers or the rich against the middle class or poor.  This is foolish because how can a business run well if there is animus between the body and the heads/leadership? A house divided will not stand...even a house of business.  Money is neither good nor evil: it's and inanimate tool... So, follow it to the character of the one(s) using it.  There, you will find your answer...and as far as I know, I like Gate Petroleum and the services they provide.  Their business are clean, offer good products, reasonably priced. I am glad Durbin Pavillion opened near us and it is very convenient.  Would I want the Whole area to look like that?  Of course not.  But having good businesses in the area is essential...we just need to make sure we are implementing good Urban Planning in the area which has plenty of schools, green spaces, shopping, and safe housing districts with well-maintained roads and utilities (all provided by businesses I might add...business is not the enemy... Corruption, failing to treat others the way you want to be treated, even in business -that's the enemy).  And unless you can expose Gate as the dreaded example of businesses above, and not one of the good ones providing a good and necessary business  providing us goods and jobs in the area, then an $8000 donation is simply a detail that lets me know they think Whitehurst will do the best job.

This person wrote thousands of words of stuff like this.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: heights unknown on November 17, 2020, 12:32:50 PM
Sounds like someone's trying to get the heat off him. Lot J is getting the crap beaten out of it in polls.

That aside, this is a nice donation, and I'm sure MOSH appreciates it.
Who wouldn't?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on November 17, 2020, 12:42:34 PM
Guys, what if MOSH put out these fancy renderings of a new Northbank facility in a bid to secure funds from Khan, only to produce a vastly scaled-back version of what was originally proposed on their current Southbank property?

Not seeing it. Khan is not the only donor. Yes $5M is material but there are many local leaders driving this one, including Brian Wolfberg (VyStar CEO). I think Khan definitely did this for some goodwill, but $5M is $5M-lets appreciate the donation but still give Lot J and his various renderings the scrutiny that they deserve.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: tufsu1 on November 17, 2020, 12:54:54 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move.  If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation.  I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone.  Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong.  Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.

I will raise you - it seems entirely possible that Khan's interest was known before the relocation announcement was made....and that the donation was conditional on relocation to this area.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on November 17, 2020, 01:31:45 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move.  If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation.  I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone.  Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong.  Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.

I will raise you - it seems entirely possible that Khan's interest was known before the relocation announcement was made....and that the donation was conditional on relocation to this area.

THIS I think is possible. I mean, I do think this could be beneficial overall.

I mean, IF it is a win-win, then I'm all for it.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 17, 2020, 01:50:05 PM
I wouldn't doubt it, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing. More of it needs to happen with DT IMO.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 17, 2020, 03:57:09 PM
Guys, what if MOSH put out these fancy renderings of a new Northbank facility in a bid to secure funds from Khan, only to produce a vastly scaled-back version of what was originally proposed on their current Southbank property?

Not seeing it. Khan is not the only donor. Yes $5M is material but there are many local leaders driving this one, including Brian Wolfberg (VyStar CEO). I think Khan definitely did this for some goodwill, but $5M is $5M-lets appreciate the donation but still give Lot J and his various renderings the scrutiny that they deserve.

I thought they were making a joke about Daily's Place and Lot J. Fancy renderings to get people supporting us going halfsies, only to value engineer it to all hell and end up with what we have now.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2020, 05:05:42 PM
Wouldn't be surprised if the MOSH board had Khan's pledge in hand when they voted to move.  If, indeed, MOSH is an asset along the river, it will benefit Khan's project as much as any* and he adds the "goodwill" of making a significant donation.  I hate being such a cynic, but I don't think much happens here based on altruism alone.  Sad to say and wish/hope I am wrong.  Let's see if Mr. Khan starts approaching the Weavers in expanding his generosity in his adopted City to get me thinking anew.

I will raise you - it seems entirely possible that Khan's interest was known before the relocation announcement was made....and that the donation was conditional on relocation to this area.

If politics played into the MOSH moving from the Southbank to the Northbank, my money's on the mayor's office getting involved, not the Jags. The $20 million in the CIP for MOSH 2.0 didn't magically appear out of nowhere. Nor does Khan have the power to essentially promise free city-owned land to the MOSH. Not saying the $5 million from Khan wasn't known about before (they've been talking about having significant, undisclosed private funding in place for a while now), but if they changed their plans, it was because someone quietly offered up free riverfront land and significant public support from the CIP, not because Khan offered up a $5 million donation.

It's funny that we talk about the lack of a master plan for downtown, because so often it feels like there's a secret master plan (and a secret CIP) sitting around in someone's drawer somewhere. Otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the Hart Bridge ramps removed before a term sheet for Lot J even existed. Or Rockville and a second Jags home game pushed out of Jacksonville to allow for Lot J construction when no official deal is in place. Or MOSH publicly announcing that they're moving to the Shipyards - a move that is predicated on the Jags developing Met Park. Or the rumblings about the jail being moved off the river. Or the talk about the Jags having dibs on the fairgrounds here in the next couple of years.

Been in Jacksonville long enough to know that about 90% of the ol' iceberg is underneath the waterline.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxjaguar on November 17, 2020, 05:30:21 PM
I know we harp on this all the time, but if this move happens this is a great opportunity for clustering / combining projects.

I recently visited the Frost Museum of Science and Perez Art Museum in Miami. WOW! That whole area is amazing and is something we should aim for in Jax. The Science museum is combined with a rooftop aquarium and aviary which overlooks the massive public park, Art museum and downtown skyline nextdoor. The Monorail drops you off right in front of it all, so it's easy to get in and out if you're staying in one of the hotels downtown.

The museums and grounds around them were very well kept. The architecture was very modern and unique, incorporating plants into the sides of the buildings. There are also classes for kids and adults throughout the day which is a fun break from just looking at things.

If AquaJax still exists and has funding they should definitely consider splitting cost with MoSH to combine their projects. The Frost Museum is a great example of how an aquarium doesn't need to be massive to be impressive. Same goes for the folks trying to bring a Naval ship in. This would be a great opportunity for them to add to the "History" portion of MoSH while providing some sort of bonus ticket to tour a ship on the water. New York's Enterprise museum does this charging for a tour of the submarine nextdoor.

Although, I'd hate to see MoCA abandon the core it would benefit them to be near the new MoSH location as well. The Current MoCA space would make for a nice boutique hotel for the library and Sweet Pete's which often host weddings and other events. Currently, there are no overnight options for the wedding parties to walk to those venues. I could see it being an easy money maker as a hotel, post pandemic.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2020, 10:57:04 PM
^I'd like to see the Fire Museum added to the mix. No one is talking about it but it isn't on the Four Seasons plan. Would hate to see it get demoed for an apartment complex.

Don't forget that the Historical Society is planning their Southern Rock museum/concert space two blocks away from the proposed MOSH 2.0 space as well at the old Casket Factory building.

I recently visited the Frost Museum of Science and Perez Art Museum in Miami. WOW! That whole area is amazing and is something we should aim for in Jax. If AquaJax still exists and has funding they should definitely consider splitting cost with MoSH to combine their projects.

^Great analogy.

BEAUTIFUL museum and campus.

Would love to see something like this in Jax, though the scale would obviously be a little different ($300 million for Frost, with about $140 million coming from the the private capital campaign; $80 million for MOSH 2.0, with about $20 million coming from private capital).

The AquaJax group had a great relationship with MOSH, I actually really do like the idea of incorporating a much less expensive aquarium element within a new MOSH.

MOSH + Orleck + Fire Museum + Aquarium element + riverfront greenspace (with the Southern Rock museum on the other side of Maxwell House) would be really cool. As would the water taxi connection between the Zoo and the Aquarium/MOSH that was discussed way back when.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: thelakelander on November 17, 2020, 11:42:17 PM
Did the AquaJax group ever have any money? I've always felt the aquarium was a pipe dream, not a real feasible project with financial backing. Sort of like the observation deck thing for the Shipyards, prior to Khan's various proposals. So whatever can be included into the MOSH project, the better because that's as close as an aquarium will be materializing in DT Jax.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 17, 2020, 11:54:49 PM
Did the AquaJax group ever have any money? I've always felt the aquarium was a pipe dream, not a real feasible project with financial backing.

Definitely seemed like a well-intentioned pipe dream from a nice group of marine-conscious folks, rather than a feasible project.

They originally came from OneSpark, and I believe the farthest they ever really got was a $50k feasibility study funded by the Weavers and Khans.

George Harrell, who was leading the group, passed away late last year.

Their biggest value to MOSH would be their expertise, rather than their capital, as I believe most of them have marine biology and/or zoological backgrounds.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: jaxlongtimer on November 18, 2020, 02:41:14 AM
Their biggest value to MOSH would be their expertise, rather than their capital, as I believe most of them have marine biology and/or zoological backgrounds.

I thought at one time there was talk of the Zoo operating any aquarium that got built.  I can see lots more synergies there than with MOSH.  With the Zoo having a dock, they could also shuttle patrons between it and a riverfront aquarium downtown using the river taxis.  Sell an all day tix package of parking (at the zoo avoiding finding a space downtown), zoo and aquarium admissions, taxi and maybe a food and souvenir package.  Can throw in MOSH if they can work it out (might need to add a two day ticket at that point :) ).  In other cities, museums join together and sell, for example, a 7 day ticket that admits to multiple museums/attractions. With the Zoo's fundraising track record, they might have the best chance to pull this off.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 18, 2020, 09:46:40 AM
This may be an obvious statement, but there better be some sort of educational partnership with the Riverkeeper, SJWMD, and potentially the Florida Springs Institute; especially if there is going to be an aquarium.  We need to educate people/children on the interconnectedness of the aquifer, the springs, our waterways, and climate change in order to make smarter decisions in the future.

I'd love to see some sort of outdoor tidal exhibit on Hogans Creek or the banks of the river, an aquarium modeled after the springs with the proper inhabitants, and a wetlands exhibit featuring mangroves and grasses mimicking the keys and everglades.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Josh on November 18, 2020, 10:20:20 AM
Their biggest value to MOSH would be their expertise, rather than their capital, as I believe most of them have marine biology and/or zoological backgrounds.

I thought at one time there was talk of the Zoo operating any aquarium that got built.  I can see lots more synergies there than with MOSH.  With the Zoo having a dock, they could also shuttle patrons between it and a riverfront aquarium downtown using the river taxis.  Sell an all day tix package of parking (at the zoo avoiding finds a space downtown), zoo and aquarium admissions, taxi and maybe a food and souvenir package.  Can throw in MOSH if they can work it out (might need to add a two day ticket at that point :)).  In other cities, museums join together and sell, for example, a 7 day ticket that admits to multiple museums/attractions. With the Zoo's fundraising track record, they might have the best chance to pull this off.

Linking the zoo and the aquarium via water taxi was brought up as a desire by the AquaJax people initially.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on November 18, 2020, 10:28:13 AM
This may be an obvious statement, but there better be some sort of educational partnership with the Riverkeeper, SJWMD, and potentially the Florida Springs Institute; especially if there is going to be an aquarium.  We need to educate people/children on the interconnectedness of the aquifer, the springs, our waterways, and climate change in order to make smarter decisions in the future.

I'd love to see some sort of outdoor tidal exhibit on Hogans Creek or the banks of the river, an aquarium modeled after the springs with the proper inhabitants, and a wetlands exhibit featuring mangroves and grasses mimicking the keys and everglades.

This makes the most sense. But, the Zoo has a VERY ambitious master plan, which included:

 - Redoing the Parking lot (almost done)
 - A new front entrance (the existing one will become the education campus)
 - A new entry exhibit - Manatees were the discussion
 - A new feature for Orangutans
 - Rebuilt Lion Exhibit
-  A New Wild Florida
 - Redesigned riverfront

With the exception of the parking, they have a lot of plans already. This was also all before Covid.

So, while I agree the Zoo COULD do the aquarium, I'm not sure how interested they really are.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Steve on November 18, 2020, 10:32:32 AM
Details here:

https://www.wokv.com/news/local/jacksonville-zoo-ten-year-overhaul-poised-begin/DFuOFLNFSxhbGreLqMOr2N/

For those not familiar with the current layout, if you find the "Manatee Gateway" (new entrance) and mentally draw a horizontal line left and right from there, everything above that is existing (save for the swapped entrance and education facilities and the relocated Wild Florida, which is now listed as "Congo Forest". Everything below that would be new, except for "Asia", which is the Land of the Tiger.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: CityLife on November 18, 2020, 10:55:39 AM
This may be an obvious statement, but there better be some sort of educational partnership with the Riverkeeper, SJWMD, and potentially the Florida Springs Institute; especially if there is going to be an aquarium.  We need to educate people/children on the interconnectedness of the aquifer, the springs, our waterways, and climate change in order to make smarter decisions in the future.

I'd love to see some sort of outdoor tidal exhibit on Hogans Creek or the banks of the river, an aquarium modeled after the springs with the proper inhabitants, and a wetlands exhibit featuring mangroves and grasses mimicking the keys and everglades.

Agreed that various groups should partner on this and there are many good options. JU's Marine Science Institute would also be a good partner. A REALLY big opportunity is to get OCEARCH to relocate their fleet to the site and create and exhibit. I believe they are currently at Mayport Village. They have a global following and might actually pull some people off I-95.

Along with Hogan's Creek kayaking, the other big ecotourism opportunity I see is to finally do something with Exchange Island. For such a big river, there are laughably few destinations for boaters. I live in the one of the best areas for offshore boating in the state (Jupiter), but there are still tons of cool places to boat inland. There are several places along the intracoastal you can dock and hike preserves at, numerous sandbars, and some great island parks. Peanut Island in the intracoastal near West Palm Beach would be a great model for Exchange Island. It's kayak and paddleboard distance from land and attracts tons of them, but also has docks, beaches, and sandbars for boats. It has some of the clearest water in the state and great snorkeling, so not totally analogous, but would still be a great model. It has camping, trails, fishing, hiking, and numerous picnic spots and pavilions. https://discover.pbcgov.org/parks/Pages/PeanutIsland.aspx

If the new MOSH wants to have a conservation/ecological focus, having the opportunity to offer boat tours, kayaks, and paddleboards to Exchange Island to get a feel for the wild St. Johns would be a big draw there and to Downtown in general. We used to do overnight sleepovers at MOSH as a kid, which was cool; but imagine doing stuff at MOSH all day and then taking a boat to camp out at Exchange Island. Of all the screw up's Jax has made related to Downtown, not taking full advantage of Exchange Island is up there as one of the big ones. If Mosh is going to the Northbank, it would be the perfect time for Jax to make an investment there that would not only benefit the general public, but also provide a huge boost to MOSH and downtown.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 18, 2020, 11:53:37 AM
Wow, I feel like I've seen those Zoo plans before, but boy do they look great. Any chance of a way to make this MOSH/Aquarium stuff an actual conversation?
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 18, 2020, 12:24:21 PM
Agreed that various groups should partner on this and there are many good options. JU's Marine Science Institute would also be a good partner. A REALLY big opportunity is to get OCEARCH to relocate their fleet to the site and create and exhibit. I believe they are currently at Mayport Village. They have a global following and might actually pull some people off I-95.

I don't know if this has changed since Vystar took over the building, but I know OCEARCH was using some space in the JU facilities downtown last year or in 2018. 
I agree that they would be another great partner to engage along with JU.  The water taxi could do quarterly science treks between MOSH, JU, the Zoo and exchange island if that were to be built out.  Could be an overnight thing and that would be an awesome program.  MOSH was already within a 2 minute walk of the water, but with the clean slate that this new location provides, I think MOSH and COJ need to get this right as far as building an educational hub that incorporates our many local science organizations and engage one of the areas greatest resources, the river, as much as possible.

Starting to feel like those Baltimore guys, so I'll calm down for now..
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: Ken_FSU on November 18, 2020, 01:34:47 PM
The Current MoCA space would make for a nice boutique hotel for the library and Sweet Pete's which often host weddings and other events.

MOCA cafe is closing after today :(

Not enough foot traffic with the pandemic.

Just grabbed lunch from there a few minutes ago.

Going to miss that Sweet Potato Bisque.
Title: Re: MOSH weighs relocating museum from its Southbank site in downtown Jacksonville
Post by: CityLife on November 19, 2020, 10:09:25 AM
Agreed that various groups should partner on this and there are many good options. JU's Marine Science Institute would also be a good partner. A REALLY big opportunity is to get OCEARCH to relocate their fleet to the site and create and exhibit. I believe they are currently at Mayport Village. They have a global following and might actually pull some people off I-95.

I don't know if this has changed since Vystar took over the building, but I know OCEARCH was using some space in the JU facilities downtown last year or in 2018. 
I agree that they would be another great partner to engage along with JU.  The water taxi could do quarterly science treks between MOSH, JU, the Zoo and exchange island if that were to be built out.  Could be an overnight thing and that would be an awesome program.  MOSH was already within a 2 minute walk of the water, but with the clean slate that this new location provides, I think MOSH and COJ need to get this right as far as building an educational hub that incorporates our many local science organizations and engage one of the areas greatest resources, the river, as much as possible.

Starting to feel like those Baltimore guys, so I'll calm down for now..

Those Baltimore guys wish they had ideas like this.

It truly is a no brainer to try to pull all of these entities together, and also do something at Exchange Island.