The Jaxson

Community => Public Safety => Topic started by: thelakelander on September 22, 2020, 04:45:31 PM

Title: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: thelakelander on September 22, 2020, 04:45:31 PM
Definitely don't see this happening in Jax:

Quote
A Jacksonville City Councilman wants to freeze nearly half of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office's $484 million budget and require the Sheriff to appear before the council in six months to receive the remaining portion, which he said could give council members more time to develop a better understanding of the agency's financial needs and better position them to receive information from the agency.

The plan, which was proposed by Councilman Garrett Dennis and will be voted on by the council Tuesday, has already attracted opposition from council members and Mayor Lenny Curry, who have described it as an attempt to defund the police and vowed to defeat it. A Curry aide said the Mayor would consider vetoing the budget if Dennis' plan passed, which would be an unprecedented action.

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/news/local/2020/09/22/jacksonville-councilman-wants-freeze-half-sheriffs-budget/3493648001/
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 22, 2020, 07:14:32 PM
Good on him for giving increased accountability the college try.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 08:45:58 AM
Here's the thing: I agree there needs to be accountability, especially given what seems like a culture of law breaking INSIDE the department. But, dropping this at the 11th hour seems like a political stunt by CM Dennis.

If he wanted budget accountability, the Mayor presented the budget in early July. Bring it up then.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: MusicMan on September 23, 2020, 09:06:37 AM
Almost half a billion dollars? Damn. And we still have a really high violent crime rate, don't we? 
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 09:11:37 AM
^No argument something needs to change. But this wasn't the way to do it.

Personally, I think he was trying to do this to start the conversation. But I don't believe this is the right way to do it.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: thelakelander on September 23, 2020, 09:18:54 AM
Quote
The Jacksonville City Council passed Mayor Lenny Curry’s $1.33 billion budget relatively intact Sept. 22, but not before a nearly two-hour debate over the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office $468 million in funding.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-city-council-approves-dollar1-33-billion-2020-21-budget
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: sandyshoes on September 23, 2020, 10:20:35 AM
As I have never needed to contact a city council member, can someone explain to me how a council person represents each of us?  Do they meet with individuals or groups.  Are they supposed to remain neutral and not take sides with said individuals or groups?  I'd like to have a full understanding of how things get done.  Again, I've never had to contact anyone so I have zero knowledge of the workings of such. Thanks.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 11:07:41 AM
As I have never needed to contact a city council member, can someone explain to me how a council person represents each of us?  Do they meet with individuals or groups.  Are they supposed to remain neutral and not take sides with said individuals or groups?  I'd like to have a full understanding of how things get done.  Again, I've never had to contact anyone so I have zero knowledge of the workings of such. Thanks.

In theory they should work just like a Representative in Congress. They absolutely can take sides on issues and they serve (in Jacksonville's Government) a very similar role to Congress in terms of checks and balances with the Mayor (they pass bills that go to the Mayor to sign, he can veto which can be overridden with 13 of the 19 council members, etc.). The one difference is there's a total of 19 - 14 district ones (which represent a district of about 70k people if I remember right) and 5 At Large members, who all represent the entire city but have to live in one of 5 geographic groups. As an example, Matt Carlucci is the At Large council member for Group 4. He had to live in Group 4, but the entire city voted on him and represents every citizen in Jacksonville.

My understanding is the number of council members was done as a way to accommodate the 5 members of the Duval County Commission, the legislative body of the Duval County government prior to Consolidation in 1968. I believe also that the At Large Groups (thereby ensuring that the 5 At Large Members lived in different parts of the city) came later.

I bring up Carlucci as I find him hyper responsive, in a good way. He's answered almost every single email I've sent him and he is very engaging. Some on the other hand are not as responsive. Council Members are technically part-time employees and are generally paid as such, making nowhere near the mayor's salary (I believe it's around $50k for council members and $65k for the Council President). All are allowed a full time assistant, and most council members utilize them. The most recent example of one not having an aide was John Cresembeni.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Bill Hoff on September 23, 2020, 12:44:41 PM
+1 for Dennis's strategy for renaming Hemming Park to JWJ Park. A cold blooded stroke a genius to suggest emergency bills to rename other parks.

-1 for Dennis's strategy for creating conversation & better accountability at JSO. Handed his political opponents an easy win on a platter, and looked a bit silly doing so.

Win some, lose some, I guess.

Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 23, 2020, 01:27:31 PM
To be fair, I didn't expect anything related to the police to have passed. The numbers weren't there to touch that part of the budget no matter what. I've been in his position before.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Charles Hunter on September 23, 2020, 01:31:16 PM
Steve is right about the change in how the At Large members are selected.  I don't remember when the change took place, but it was in response to a trend of most of the 5 At Large members coming from the same part of town (San Jose / Mandarin, if I recall).

Here is the City Council section of the COJ website: https://www.coj.net/city-council.aspx

To find your District Council member enter your address on this page: http://maps.coj.net/CouncilDistrictSearch/
Sadly, it does not tell you who "your" At Large member is.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 01:36:11 PM
Steve is right about the change in how the At Large members are selected.  I don't remember when the change took place, but it was in response to a trend of most of the 5 At Large members coming from the same part of town (San Jose / Mandarin, if I recall).

Here is the City Council section of the COJ website: https://www.coj.net/city-council.aspx

To find your District Council member enter your address on this page: http://maps.coj.net/CouncilDistrictSearch/
Sadly, it does not tell you who "your" At Large member is.

Well, your At Large Councilman is all 5 of them. Everyone votes for all of them and they all represent everyone.

Now, you can pull a map of the At-Large Groups and assuming you can find where you live on a map then you can see who is the one that lives in your group.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 01:39:45 PM
+1 for Dennis's strategy for renaming Hemming Park to JWJ Park. A cold blooded stroke a genius to suggest emergency bills to rename other parks.

-1 for Dennis's strategy for creating conversation & better accountability at JSO. Handed his political opponents an easy win on a platter, and looked a bit silly doing so.

Win some, lose some, I guess.



See, this is my problem. I didn't like the process in which we arrived at JWJ Park. Regardless of how great of a person JWJ was, the process to rename something that has had it's name for 130 years shouldn't happen in the manner in which it did.

Now to be fair, Becton didn't help this process either, but frankly, I don't think Becton brings a lot to most conversations unfortunately.

This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 23, 2020, 02:18:08 PM
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Charles Hunter on September 23, 2020, 02:41:21 PM
Steve is right about the change in how the At Large members are selected.  I don't remember when the change took place, but it was in response to a trend of most of the 5 At Large members coming from the same part of town (San Jose / Mandarin, if I recall).

Here is the City Council section of the COJ website: https://www.coj.net/city-council.aspx

To find your District Council member enter your address on this page: http://maps.coj.net/CouncilDistrictSearch/
Sadly, it does not tell you who "your" At Large member is.

Well, your At Large Councilman is all 5 of them. Everyone votes for all of them and they all represent everyone.

Now, you can pull a map of the At-Large Groups and assuming you can find where you live on a map then you can see who is the one that lives in your group.

Yeah, that's why I put "your" in quotes in referring to At-Large members.  Thought it would be easily understoond shorthand for
Sadly, it does not tell you who the At Large member who resides in the same At Large Residence Zone as you.

:D
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 03:22:40 PM
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Tacachale on September 23, 2020, 03:50:19 PM
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

No one, and I mean no one, would categorize Curry as a populist.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Charles Hunter on September 23, 2020, 04:10:30 PM
Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

Given Florida's Sunshine Laws, these conversations would have to provide proper public notice, and the opportunity for the public to attend - even if virtual or on the phone.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 04:42:55 PM
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

No one, and I mean no one, would categorize Curry as a populist.

Maybe he thinks he is. Honestly I’d have to think about it. My point was simply this: “ neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves.”

I think that is true of Trump, Curry, and Dennis and it’s not a good quality of any of them.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: sandyshoes on September 23, 2020, 05:00:17 PM
Re: Reply #17;  Sounds like this Gov't In the Sunshine law in FL prohibits an elected official from consorting with anyone whose meetings are closed to the public, for purposes of being used by said group to obtain advice and furtherment of their agenda(s) then?  What if the official believes in or thinks they believe in a group's agenda...is that favoritism, or would an official meet with anyone they serve, for as long and often as necessary?  (Again, just trying to get the picture in my mind and understand the process, and thanks for your kind indulgence).
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Charles Hunter on September 23, 2020, 05:23:25 PM
From the Florida Attorney General FAQ on Open Government
Quote
Florida's Government-in-the-Sunshine law provides a right of access to governmental proceedings at both the state and local levels. It applies to any gathering of two or more members of the same board to discuss some matter which will foresee ably come before that board for action. There is also a constitutionally guaranteed right of access. Virtually all state and local collegial public bodies are covered by the open meetings requirements with the exception of the judiciary and the state Legislature which has its own constitutional provision relating to access.

So, two members of City Council could have dinner and talk about their kids or the weather or anything that couldn't reasonably be a potential issue to come before the City Council.  Individual Council members can meet with anyone about anything. They can meet, without public notice, with developers that have projects or zoning before Council; they can meet with citizens (either individual citizens or interest groups) about issues - pot holes, trash collection, new develpments, zoning, anything.  Council members are supposed to approach all issues with an open mind, and listen to all views on the issue - but, they are human, and are interested in civic government (else, they wouldn't have run for Council), so will likely have opinions going in.

Edit to Add link to Fla. Attorney General FAQ: https://myfloridalegal.com/pages.nsf/Main/321B47083D80C4CD8525791B006A54E3
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: sandyshoes on September 23, 2020, 07:19:42 PM
Reply to #20;  Thanks again, I have a much clearer understanding of the process. 
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: Tacachale on September 24, 2020, 03:58:03 PM
This is going to sound strange, but I actually think Curry and Dennis are cut from a very similar cloth. They both have very different views on policy for sure, but neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves. This is a huge personality issue with both men.

So populism. You're saying they're both populists who tend against delegating. I can see how that could be considered a negative. For me, in my own experience, I've been burned by "collaborators" who were only seeking benefits for their convenience and don't actually want to do anything beneficial for citizens more times than I'd like. So I can see how people like Dennis would get fed up and roll up their sleeves. There's no value in being a "team player" if what the team wants is wrong.

You could also say our President fits this mold as well. I definitely wouldn't consider this a positive.

I do see and agree with your point that being entirely a team player isn't good. This mentality leads to scenarios where a group of intelligent people come up with some colossally bad ideas. Now, your point is that "collaborators" with ulterior motives don't want to do anything for citizens unless they get a personal benefit. My belief is that people with ulterior motives that are looking to take care of themselves aren't who we want in leadership period, regardless of whether or not they collaborate with others (meaning they take what they want behind others' back), or just do their own thing (meaning they take what they want to others' face).

Here's the thing: Each of the people on City Council is an elected official (I realize that's an obvious statement). My point is in my eyes they have a duty to try to work with their fellow council members. Now, some I believe are a lost cause (I'm so unimpressed by Becton it's not even funny), but I actually think this council is better (as a body) then we've had recently. What Dennis did wasn't working with others - it was an 11th hour wrench in the bicycle spokes. If you wanted to do this start in June (Even before the Mayor presented the budget) and talk to your fellow CMs to drum up support. If you get no support and want to drop the 50% bomb, then do it right after the Mayor presents the budget.

No one, and I mean no one, would categorize Curry as a populist.

Maybe he thinks he is. Honestly I’d have to think about it. My point was simply this: “ neither of them have shown to be very good collaborators and seem to want to do everything themselves.”

I think that is true of Trump, Curry, and Dennis and it’s not a good quality of any of them.

The definition of a populist is someone who claims to represent "the people" ("the people" invariable means "some of the people," but the idea is that you appeal to the common man in some way). That's not Curry's style at all. I would say that Trump has more of that than he does, though I agree that both have a tendency not to work well with others.
Title: Re: Jacksonville Councilman wants to freeze half of Sheriff's budget
Post by: bl8jaxnative on September 25, 2020, 11:19:20 AM
Here's the thing: I agree there needs to be accountability, especially given what seems like a culture of law breaking INSIDE the department. But, dropping this at the 11th hour seems like a political stunt by CM Dennis.

If he wanted budget accountability, the Mayor presented the budget in early July. Bring it up then.

If it was about accountability, it wouldn't require the chief to go back before the council in 6 months.  It's about creating a political show to be seen as "doing something" even though it's doing nothing.