The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: thelakelander on August 13, 2020, 11:00:51 AM

Title: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 13, 2020, 11:00:51 AM
Quote
(https://photos.moderncities.com/photos/i-p3bfb6R/0/L/i-p3bfb6R-L.jpg)
 
A before and after look at the evolution of the Jacksonville Landing from a publicly owned asset available for adaptive reuse to a seldom used riverfront lawn.


Read More:  https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/a-weekend-walk-at-the-jacksonville-landing-site/
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: jaxlongtimer on August 13, 2020, 11:15:45 AM
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.  Your pictures make it clear.

I reexamined pictures of the Landing from the Super Bowl and it was packed.  Plus, there were dozens of boats triple docked or better in front of it and others milling about in the river cementing its role as a center-point for Downtown during the festivities.

Interestingly, I don't hear the Mayor even discussing its future.  Did he put any dollars in the new budget for its next life?
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 13, 2020, 11:34:15 AM
I'd have to go back and check but I believe some money has been allocated to do a study. The ramp from Independent Drive to the Main Street Bridge will also come down. No word on if that will include a new pedestrian connection from the bridge to the Northbank Riverwalk, or if pedestrians will then be required to come down at Bay and circle back around.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 13, 2020, 11:43:39 AM
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.  Your pictures make it clear.

Whenever I'm in my Downtown office on the weekend, it's basically me and homeless people out there. Whatever the case, it definitely isn't what I've seen the last month in several other Florida cities in the heart of their downtown cores.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-TbNcMJm/0/L/i-TbNcMJm-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-JMfm67g/0/L/i-JMfm67g-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-SsbBsWp/0/L/i-SsbBsWp-L.jpg)
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: jaxlongtimer on August 13, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
I'd have to go back and check but I believe some money has been allocated to do a study. The ramp from Independent Drive to the Main Street Bridge will also come down. No word on if that will include a new pedestrian connection from the bridge to the Northbank Riverwalk, or if pedestrians will then be required to come down at Bay and circle back around.

I walked the Main Street bridge several times when it was totally closed to vehicles during the Super Bowl.  It was amazing to see thousands of people crowding across it all day long between the North and South Banks.  We need to replicate this permanently with a dedicated lane and/or bridge for pedestrians and bicyclists.  To your point, they definitely should create bilateral connections directly from the North and South Bank river walks to the Main Street bridge as the next best thing.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on August 13, 2020, 11:59:01 AM
As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.  Your pictures make it clear.

Interestingly, I don't hear the Mayor even discussing its future.  Did he put any dollars in the new budget for its next life?

$2.2 million in the budget for 2020-2022 for site preparation, pre-engineering, landscaping work, and a $250k market analysis.

Gonna be looking at that grass field for years to come.

Walking past that lawn makes me appreciate how well designed and densely built the Landing property was. The grass lot feels much smaller than the Landing did.

Quote
I reexamined pictures of the Landing from the Super Bowl and it was packed.  Plus, there were dozens of boats triple docked or better in front of it and others milling about in the river cementing its role as a center-point for Downtown during the festivities.

It was an amazing, iconic, historic spot for Jacksonville that we'll never get back.

All it needed was a pressure wash, some fresh paint, and Curry to drop the petty grudges and be a better partner to Sleiman.

Will prove to be the single worst downtown decision of our generation.

Just astounding and infuriating that it takes years and years and years to negotiate historic rehabs and slight bumps to the historic preservation fund, but just months to get the City to unanimously (minus one vote) approve a $20 million+ buyout of a huge valuable downtown asset and just a few months more to tear it to the ground.

Mayor and DIA want something "iconic" in that space.

We had something iconic already.

(https://www.jacksonville.com/galleryimage/LK/20120627/PHOTOGALLERY/306279945/PH/0/47/PH-306279945.jpg)

(https://snipboard.io/Wfq4OZ.jpg)

(https://thejacksonvilleparty.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/landing-700x400.jpg)

(https://snipboard.io/FHB7Ve.jpg)

(https://www.904happyhour.com/article-images/hof600-T.jpg)

(https://www.news4jax.com/resizer/boPCE11PXQxCkDXEg-jrdGaC5Xc=/640x360/smart/filters:format(jpeg):strip_exif(true):strip_icc(true):no_upscale(true):quality(65)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-gmg.s3.amazonaws.com/public/OP4DFDYZOJAODJSGLRIJ47D5LE.jpg)

(https://www.jacksonville.com/storyimage/LK/20191023/NEWS/191028974/AR/0/AR-191028974.jpg)

(https://www.904happyhour.com/userfiles/images/landingtree.jpg)

(https://snipboard.io/HdoZMT.jpg)

(https://snipboard.io/aCAo6S.jpg)

(https://snipboard.io/l9SDGI.jpg)
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Peter Griffin on August 13, 2020, 12:46:05 PM

All it needed was a pressure wash, some fresh paint, and Curry to drop the petty grudges and be a better partner to Sleiman.


I think it's really easy to speculatively envision the revitalization of the Landing posthumously, but I think  it's wildly optimistic and completely ignores the reality of the decline of indoor shopping malls, the prevalence of homeless people in the area, and the lack of draw to the building in recent years.

A pressure wash and a paint job wouldn't reopen the food court, or bring back the brewery, or refill the long-vacant retail spaces inside. It was a heavily dated building, and to date none of the Roush Festival Marketplaces stand or function as they did when they were built. Not one. To say that we, a sparsely populated mid-size city, would be the one to finally make the Landing shine like it did in the late 90's and early new millennium, is a dream and nothing more. Cherry-picking the best pics of a packed landing does not reflect the reality for 90+% of the time in the past decade or so.

It's a shame it wasn't reconfigured or better accommodated with the parking it deserved, but don't kid yourself in thinking that we had a gem that just needed a little polish to shine again like it did in the boom times.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on August 13, 2020, 01:55:29 PM

All it needed was a pressure wash, some fresh paint, and Curry to drop the petty grudges and be a better partner to Sleiman.


I think it's really easy to speculatively envision the revitalization of the Landing posthumously, but I think  it's wildly optimistic and completely ignores the reality of the decline of indoor shopping malls, the prevalence of homeless people in the area, and the lack of draw to the building in recent years.

A pressure wash and a paint job wouldn't reopen the food court, or bring back the brewery, or refill the long-vacant retail spaces inside. It was a heavily dated building, and to date none of the Roush Festival Marketplaces stand or function as they did when they were built. Not one. To say that we, a sparsely populated mid-size city, would be the one to finally make the Landing shine like it did in the late 90's and early new millennium, is a dream and nothing more. Cherry-picking the best pics of a packed landing does not reflect the reality for 90+% of the time in the past decade or so.

It's a shame it wasn't reconfigured or better accommodated with the parking it deserved, but don't kid yourself in thinking that we had a gem that just needed a little polish to shine again like it did in the boom times.

Putting aside its function as a perfectly serviceable retail center, even up to the end when it still had 30 businesses - including full-scale restaurants - operating within it, I think what these pictures really show is how iconic and important the Landing was a civic space for Jacksonville. For the last 30 years, it's served as the equivalent of our town square. It's where national politicians go to speak. It's where we light our Christmas tree, and watch fireworks, and celebrate big news (like the Jags landing in Jacksonville). It's where we send visitors to gather for events like Florida-Georgia and the Super Bowl.

What replaces that for the next 10 years while we figure out the Landing 2.0 or Lot J?

The "prevalence of homeless people" in the area has nothing to do with whether or not the Landing should have been demolished. It's a fixable problem, and as someone who works right down Laura Street from the Landing, it's an overblown problem (I get solicited more in a lunch-time visit to Five Points than I do in a month downtown). Just like the vacant retail space is a fixable problem. An easy fix? Probably not. But that doesn't mean you blow the entire thing to the ground and replace it with an empty lot for a decade.

Never needed to shine like it did in the 90s. Just needed to provide utility for a downtown population that's slowly growing and could have really benefited from the restaurants, gathering space, retail offerings, bank etc. that even a depressed Landing was still providing when the city made everyone leave.

The rush to demolish the Landing because it was somehow a blight on downtown Jacksonville is the same straw man horseshit that nearly led to JEA being privatized because it was a dying utility.

We fix all of our bruises and scrapes with nuclear options.

It's maddening.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 13, 2020, 02:12:02 PM

All it needed was a pressure wash, some fresh paint, and Curry to drop the petty grudges and be a better partner to Sleiman.


I think it's really easy to speculatively envision the revitalization of the Landing posthumously, but I think  it's wildly optimistic and completely ignores the reality of the decline of indoor shopping malls, the prevalence of homeless people in the area, and the lack of draw to the building in recent years.

A pressure wash and a paint job wouldn't reopen the food court, or bring back the brewery, or refill the long-vacant retail spaces inside. It was a heavily dated building, and to date none of the Roush Festival Marketplaces stand or function as they did when they were built. Not one. To say that we, a sparsely populated mid-size city, would be the one to finally make the Landing shine like it did in the late 90's and early new millennium, is a dream and nothing more. Cherry-picking the best pics of a packed landing does not reflect the reality for 90+% of the time in the past decade or so.

It's a shame it wasn't reconfigured or better accommodated with the parking it deserved, but don't kid yourself in thinking that we had a gem that just needed a little polish to shine again like it did in the boom times.

I disagree because we have a variety of things right now we're trying to pull off locally that could have taken up empty space along with keeping the existing tenants. Just the fact of having an existing, structurally sound building that is centrally located with things like air conditioning and public restrooms in place would have been godsend. These include a music museum that we're looking out for the casket factory and a visitors center that Lori Boyer wanted in the TU center next door. Those two things alone could have easily took up an additional 15,000 to 30,000 square feet of empty space. A public market is something else that could have easily consumed another chunk without having to modify structural components.

I also disagree because I can directly point to several old Rouse Festival Marketplaces that have been repurposed to other uses. It was a building that we owned. It didn't have to be a traditional mall with chain stores. Some former marketplaces have been revamped into everything from office space to urban collages and museums. All of that could have been possible without $25 million in tax money being spent to get us to the lawn we have today. If fact, I'd argue that a better use of the $25 million would have been using 1/2 of it to add the three things I just mentioned above. The other half could have been used to spruce up the place or as incentives to attract additional businesses and restaurants.

Now we have nothing and will have nothing at least for five years at a minimum.....if we're lucky with this pandemic thing. I hope I'm wrong but I also believe the extra lack of foot traffic could even challenge the ultimate success of the things that VyStar is bringing. Especially with many of downtown's workers now working from home.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: sandyshoes on August 13, 2020, 03:16:35 PM
[sighing] I've been nostalgic about The Landing all day, ever since I put on my big, wide, black shiny hairband from The Accessory Lady, circa 1988.  Even got my hair bobbed again last week.  Too bad (well - maybe not) I didn't save any geometric plastic earrings. 
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: bl8jaxnative on August 14, 2020, 08:48:48 AM


I reexamined pictures of the Landing from the Super Bowl and it was packed. 

With all due respect, turning to an extreme  extreme, once in a lifetime edge case, is not that action of someone interested in everyday reality.


As for the tenants of The Landing, spare us the Trump-esque rhetoric.  The landing was 83% vacant.    Half the tennants in there so far behind in rent that had Sleiman chosen to, they would've been evicted.   The problem for Slei & Co. was that eviction was more expensive than letting them stay. 

Businesses that can't pay rent ain't getting paying customers.

Retail space is empty cuz businesses won't move in cuz they know they won't get paying customers.

The city botched the thing from day one. And they repeated the botching several times.  Removing that giant turdish wart was the only half-way smart thing they ever did.

Downtown is overflowing with potential retail space.  The last thing downtown needs is some isolated mall siphoning off 38% of the sparse customers they have.   That wretched orange roid ring was a leach, killing off what chance there was for some small scale clustering downtown. 
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 14, 2020, 09:05:32 AM
My downtown office is across the street. It was not 83% vacant before the squeeze to shut down businesses the last 12 months. Neverthless, it could have been 100% vacant and that's still not a good reason to spend $25 million in tax money to raze, leaving us with what we have today. That's just completely fiscally irresponsible.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: fieldafm on August 14, 2020, 09:55:39 AM


I reexamined pictures of the Landing from the Super Bowl and it was packed. 

As for the tenants of The Landing, spare us the Trump-esque rhetoric.  The landing was 83% vacant.    Half the tennants in there so far behind in rent that had Sleiman chosen to, they would've been evicted.   The problem for Slei & Co. was that eviction was more expensive than letting them stay. 


Wrong... as usual.

The Landing was about 30% vacant. Were some of those tenants paying reduced rent schedules? Yes. Were some paying more rent than other comparable restaurant spaces Downtown (like Bellwether)?  Also, yes. But were the Landing tenants paying a discounted rent schedule able to do so because the infrastructure was also in place for many of them to move in to ready-to-lease space (most of the 'available' downtown retail spaces you reference are not even in a shell condition, nor have access to a $2 million chilled air compressor, existing grease traps and sewer hookups, and dumpster access, as the Landing had)? Also, 100% yes.  There is a huge opportunity cost associated with leveling ready-to-lease space.. versus heavily incentivizing most of the 'not ready for primetime' retail spaces available Downtown.  Bread and Board, for example, got almost as much incentives from COJ.. then they actually paid for the buildout of their Riverside space, just to level the playing field to make leasing a space downtown financially feasible.

All but three tenants had 30 day outs in their lease agreements... so 'evicting' them was as 'expensive' as the cost of a sheet of paper with some ink notifying them of their duty to vacate the space in 30 days. The going rate for such a sheet of paper with ink is about 3 cents these days.

Four, as in (4), were delinquent on their rent at the time the City and JLI entered into a buyout agreement. Two spaces were rent-free as donations to two non-profit/museum organizations.  The Landing took in more rent, even in its last few years, as the building Lakelander works in (Enterprise Center Tower) or the BB&T Tower... as a frame of comparison.

Quote
With all due respect, turning to an extreme  extreme, once in a lifetime edge case, is not that action of someone interested in everyday reality.

With all due respect, the Landing hosted about 200 events a year. None as big as the Super Bowl... but a Thursday night concert in conjunction with 99.9 Gator Country which drew in a few thousand people, Harley Davidson bike night which routinely drew in 400-600 people on a weeknight once a month, or a Saturday/Sunday event in conjunction with a non-profit (like Earth Day, Filipino Fest, Puerto Rican Pride, etc) drawing in a few thousand people... are hard to dismiss as not contributing to the foot traffic Downtown.  I hosted about three dozen events at the Landing over the past decade. All of which benefitted Downtown businesses... and I have the sales figures to back that up. 
For another comparison, the Landing's event programming budget, paid for via rents collected, was more than COJ's Special Events budget on an annual basis.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Adam White on August 14, 2020, 11:24:28 AM


I reexamined pictures of the Landing from the Super Bowl and it was packed. 

As for the tenants of The Landing, spare us the Trump-esque rhetoric.  The landing was 83% vacant.    Half the tennants in there so far behind in rent that had Sleiman chosen to, they would've been evicted.   The problem for Slei & Co. was that eviction was more expensive than letting them stay. 


Wrong... as usual.

The Landing was about 30% vacant.

All but three tenants had 30 day outs in their lease agreements... so 'evicting' them was as 'expensive' as the cost of a sheet of paper with some ink notifying them of their duty to vacate the space in 30 days. The going rate for such a sheet of paper with ink is about 3 cents these days.

Four, as in (4), were delinquent on their rent at the time the City and JLI entered into a buyout agreement. Two spaces were rent-free as donations to two non-profit/museum organizations.  The Landing took in more rent, even in its last few years, as the building Lakelander works in (Enterprise Center Tower) or the BB&T Tower... as a frame of comparison.

Quote
With all due respect, turning to an extreme  extreme, once in a lifetime edge case, is not that action of someone interested in everyday reality.

With all due respect, the Landing hosted about 200 events a year. None as big as the Super Bowl... but a Thursday night concert in conjunction with 99.9 Gator Country which drew in a few thousand people, Harley Davidson bike night which routinely drew in 400-600 people on a weeknight once a month, or a Saturday/Sunday event in conjunction with a non-profit (like Earth Day, Filipino Fest, Puerto Rican Pride, etc) drawing in a few thousand people... are hard to dismiss as not contributing to the foot traffic Downtown.  I hosted about three dozen events at the Landing over the past decade. All of which benefitted Downtown businesses... and I have the sales figures to back that up. 
For another comparison, the Landing's event programming budget, paid for via rents collected, was more than COJ's Special Events budget on an annual basis.

Great, informative reply. Thanks for the info.

Maybe the Landing wasn't quite "working" as it should've been - but it's pretty hard to argue that what's there now is an improvement. This seems like a massive missed opportunity for Jax.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Steve on August 14, 2020, 11:36:56 AM
Maybe the Landing wasn't quite "working" as it should've been - but it's pretty hard to argue that what's there now is an improvement. This seems like a massive missed opportunity for Jax.

THIS. THIS. THIS.

This is the #1 takeaway from the entire fiasco.

There were a ton of ways to handle this better than the city did.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 14, 2020, 11:37:48 AM
A 90% vacant building with only Hooters as a tenant is an improvement over the current state and what it will be for the next several years (don't let anyone fool you, it will be like this for a few years if we're lucky, another decade if we're not). The most unfortunate part is that this was completely predictable and 100% avoidable with inclusive community engagement, planning, funding and implementation. While we've missed this opportunity, the main message at this point is to avoid making similar decisions in the future and to make a real financial commitment to work to activate the empty, unique spaces that we still have. As for the Landing site moving forward, it is what it is. Whatever the future plan will be, there needs to be a real, financially backed commitment to make it a first class space, sooner rather than later. Right now, we don't have that (sorry, market analysis and a few million by 2022 for some design, etc. is not a real commitment).
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Charles Hunter on August 14, 2020, 11:50:27 AM
Now that the deed is done, perhaps it is time to think about recreating a 'natural' riverbank that can absorb some of the inevitable storm-surges to come. I think I recall some areas like this along the Tampa Riverwalk.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Adam White on August 14, 2020, 11:58:07 AM
Looking at those photos made me sad. It reminded me of how the Landing was basically the closest thing Jax had to a town square or whatever - a place where people would come together for civic functions, celebrations, etc.

Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 14, 2020, 01:37:51 PM
Yeah, we have none right now. JWJ Park (formerly Hemming) would be the traditional one, but for it to function as such, we'll need to repopulate the blocks surrounding it.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 14, 2020, 02:11:50 PM
^Still need a true commitment to fund. If the plan were to mostly raze and immediately rebuild new or turn into a world class interactive public space, I'd be fine because we'd have something that moves us closer to a vision of vibrancy, that we can enjoy as opposed to waiting for something to open when my future great grand kids are old enough to run for office.

But building or not, we're still in the same situation we were 20 years ago. Except our pockets are $25 million lighter and we killed off the foot traffic we did have. That part frustrates me more than anything.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: avonjax on August 17, 2020, 07:00:55 AM
A 90% vacant building with only Hooters as a tenant is an improvement over the current state and what it will be for the next several years (don't let anyone fool you, it will be like this for a few years if we're lucky, another decade if we're not). The most unfortunate part is that this was completely predictable and 100% avoidable with inclusive community engagement, planning, funding and implementation. While we've missed this opportunity, the main message at this point is to avoid making similar decisions in the future and to make a real financial commitment to work to activate the empty, unique spaces that we still have. As for the Landing site moving forward, it is what it is. Whatever the future plan will be, there needs to be a real, financially backed commitment to make it a first class space, sooner rather than later. Right now, we don't have that (sorry, market analysis and a few million by 2022 for some design, etc. is not a real commitment).

I just want someone to tell me why Curry was so determined to tear the Landing down. It will NEVER make sense to me. Ever.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: sandyshoes on August 17, 2020, 07:07:38 AM
Because he's a puppet. 
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on August 17, 2020, 11:39:41 AM
I just want someone to tell me why Curry was so determined to tear the Landing down. It will NEVER make sense to me. Ever.

I don't think it's a huge leap to suggest that the demolition of the Landing is the result of:

1) A political grudge stemming back to the 2015 mayoral election where Curry & Hughes accused Toney Sleiman of supporting and appearing in ads for Alvin Brown as payback for Brown offering up $12 million in incentives for the Landing. This is where we get that famous, now-ironic quote ("Throwing money, nearly $12 million, at special interests while kids are being gunned down in the street because of fewer cops is not simply outrageous it’s disgusting.")

https://floridapolitics.com/archives/6963-latest-alvin-brown-tv-ad-draws-scrutiny

2) A motive to eliminate it as competition for the Cordish development and to potentially enact a land swap with Met Park. Curry's strong-arming of Sleiman began almost immediately after his secretive trip with Shad Khan and Mark Lamping to visit Cordish developments in St. Louis, Kansas City, and Baltimore. And his "vision" for the new Landing was a giant lawn, that we now know the city made at least some inquiries about swapping for Met Park to open up development by the stadium.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: avonjax on August 17, 2020, 12:08:42 PM
but he threw a fortune to demolish it. And millions more will be required to do anything to that wasteland. Curry will be historically one of our worst mayors if not THE worst. I hope this ruins his political career.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: avonjax on August 17, 2020, 12:11:46 PM
There was so much potential. So many locals uses were possible. Some great restaurants could have reopened in the empty spaces. Now nothing. I went to almost every riverfront restaurant that was there and it was a great atmosphere even when the restaurant was just ok. Now nothing. I'm sure for years to come. This is the main act that ruined my enthusiasm for downtown. And at my age I doubt it will ever come back.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on August 17, 2020, 01:16:12 PM
but he threw a fortune to demolish it.

He threw an even bigger fortune at the Courthouse site/Coastline to prepare it for a convention center.

Soon as Khan snapped his fingers, we dust off of an old DIA study and say, "Never mind, we're not ready for a convention center."

We literally spent $40 million to prep that site for a low-rise apartment complex.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 17, 2020, 02:49:28 PM
^The rub there is that the firms that submitted responses spent hundreds of thousands of their own money doing so, only to have the rug pulled from under them. That's something that can potentially damage our credibility with the development community in the long run.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 21, 2020, 04:12:23 PM
Taken to the woodshed. An additional $68k headed Sleiman's way....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-seeking-final-settlement-with-jacksonville-landing-owner
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on August 21, 2020, 04:43:49 PM
Taken to the woodshed. An additional $68k headed Sleiman's way....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-seeking-final-settlement-with-jacksonville-landing-owner
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/226133_standard.jpeg)
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: heights unknown on August 21, 2020, 10:44:18 PM
Taken to the woodshed. An additional $68k headed Sleiman's way....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-seeking-final-settlement-with-jacksonville-landing-owner

Good. Wouldn't it be something if Sleiman came back and wanted to build something new on the property?
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: marcuscnelson on August 21, 2020, 11:17:37 PM
(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/226133_standard.jpeg)

Billion-dollar city and we can't take a decent photo.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on August 22, 2020, 09:13:46 AM
Taken to the woodshed. An additional $68k headed Sleiman's way....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-seeking-final-settlement-with-jacksonville-landing-owner

Good. Wouldn't it be something if Sleiman came back and wanted to build something new on the property?

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/toney-sleiman-may-make-second-run-at-the-jacksonville-landing-site
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: avonjax on August 22, 2020, 01:41:24 PM

All it needed was a pressure wash, some fresh paint, and Curry to drop the petty grudges and be a better partner to Sleiman.



I think it's really easy to speculatively envision the revitalization of the Landing posthumously, but I think  it's wildly optimistic and completely ignores the reality of the decline of indoor shopping malls, the prevalence of homeless people in the area, and the lack of draw to the building in recent years.

A pressure wash and a paint job wouldn't reopen the food court, or bring back the brewery, or refill the long-vacant retail spaces inside. It was a heavily dated building, and to date none of the Roush Festival Marketplaces stand or function as they did when they were built. Not one. To say that we, a sparsely populated mid-size city, would be the one to finally make the Landing shine like it did in the late 90's and early new millennium, is a dream and nothing more. Cherry-picking the best pics of a packed landing does not reflect the reality for 90+% of the time in the past decade or so.

It's a shame it wasn't reconfigured or better accommodated with the parking it deserved, but don't kid yourself in thinking that we had a gem that just needed a little polish to shine again like it did in the boom times.

Yep I agree. Better to have nothing for years except a vacant lot that will probably be crap when it's finally "redeveloped." Let's just tear down downtown and we call all be suburbanites. We could make dt the next landfill. Oh and we can spend millions more to acheive our dream. After a lifetime I have lost all enthusiam for DT.

PS. most of the other festival marketplaces WERE reused as something else. NOT demolished. We are pathetic. And our mayor is awful. There!
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: heights unknown on August 22, 2020, 05:00:33 PM
Taken to the woodshed. An additional $68k headed Sleiman's way....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-seeking-final-settlement-with-jacksonville-landing-owner

Good. Wouldn't it be something if Sleiman came back and wanted to build something new on the property?

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/toney-sleiman-may-make-second-run-at-the-jacksonville-landing-site
Wow. I'll bet he does. If it's within city guidelines, etc., and what they want on the property. Boy, I guess I am a seer huh? I said that and then an article comes out with him thinking hard about it. I hope he does. IMO, he was dealt some bad cards and was treated unfairly. He was willing to build something new on the property anyway, and then that Miss Curry, and Khad Shan wrested it away from him, and I believe most of what they accused him of were lies and fabrications. What goes around comes around, and now Lot J and Met Park and Shipyards that Khad was going to develop is falling through. I'm pulling for Toney.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: heights unknown on August 22, 2020, 05:04:36 PM

All it needed was a pressure wash, some fresh paint, and Curry to drop the petty grudges and be a better partner to Sleiman.



I think it's really easy to speculatively envision the revitalization of the Landing posthumously, but I think  it's wildly optimistic and completely ignores the reality of the decline of indoor shopping malls, the prevalence of homeless people in the area, and the lack of draw to the building in recent years.

A pressure wash and a paint job wouldn't reopen the food court, or bring back the brewery, or refill the long-vacant retail spaces inside. It was a heavily dated building, and to date none of the Roush Festival Marketplaces stand or function as they did when they were built. Not one. To say that we, a sparsely populated mid-size city, would be the one to finally make the Landing shine like it did in the late 90's and early new millennium, is a dream and nothing more. Cherry-picking the best pics of a packed landing does not reflect the reality for 90+% of the time in the past decade or so.

It's a shame it wasn't reconfigured or better accommodated with the parking it deserved, but don't kid yourself in thinking that we had a gem that just needed a little polish to shine again like it did in the boom times.

Yep I agree. Better to have nothing for years except a vacant lot that will probably be crap when it's finally "redeveloped." Let's just tear down downtown and we call all be suburbanites. We could make dt the next landfill. Oh and we can spend millions more to acheive our dream. After a lifetime I have lost all enthusiam for DT.

PS. most of the other festival marketplaces WERE reused as something else. NOT demolished. We are pathetic. And our mayor is awful. There!

In all due respect, please don't lose enthusiasm and the potential that DT Jax has, but lose enthusiasm, support, etc. for our current City Government mainly that Mayor and all others around him. He's tearing our downtown apart. And yeah, if this keeps up, we'll have a DT with bombarded pot holes where buildings and skyscrapers used to be; STOP THE MADNESS!!!
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: MusicMan on August 23, 2020, 12:28:49 PM
Drove through DT yesterday. It was grey, overcast. More depressing than usual. The human misery on display on the streets is a serious downer.

NOTHING going on.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on August 23, 2020, 03:20:04 PM
Nope. Just people online, in the media and at SJTC, talking about all the potential DT has, yet they're nowhere to be found close to the fresh sod of the newly created pedestrian hostile sites they wanted to see razed.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: heights unknown on August 23, 2020, 03:41:30 PM
Drove through DT yesterday. It was grey, overcast. More depressing than usual. The human misery on display on the streets is a serious downer.

NOTHING going on.
Saturday should be the one day that people are milling about downtown, if not near Hemming, when the Landing was there, SOMETIHING was going on; DT was already suffering, but now that the Landing is gone, it's dying a sure death.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: jaxlongtimer on August 23, 2020, 09:22:11 PM
Downtown takes another hit:

https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/08/23/jacksonville-family-closing-doors-of-downtown-restaurant/ (https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/08/23/jacksonville-family-closing-doors-of-downtown-restaurant/)

Sad to see but I don't know how any small business can make it Downtown over the long haul with the all the bad decisions the City makes about Downtown.  Now that COVID that has essentially closed down the main reason most people have to visit Downtown, offices, our theaters and sports venues, it has hit a new bottom.

My hats off to the optimists who always think that Downtown is about to take off at any moment but I don't see a basis for it with the City's poor management and a trending decline, now going on for the 75 years since WW II.  We have squandered decades given assets such as our climate, the river, our history and historic buildings, diversified economy, reasonably good road access (but traditionally lousy public transit), etc.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on September 22, 2020, 12:12:07 PM
How many people did you see laying in the grass at the Landing site or dining at restaurants and shopping at retail on the surrounding streets? Did you spend any cash at the nice green site? This thing is a complete failure if the investment isn't stimulating economic development in the immediate vicinity.

I may be the freak but it is definitely because I'm living and seeing the reality of today and the decade to become. I really get tired of hearing about the positive of dead green space and the ability to look at empty buildings. It may be the reality of having an office across the street and seeing how the little foot traffic that was done there has disappeared. It may also be me knowing full damn well that despite the press releases and people's dreams of what it could be, none of that will happen for years. I'm totally fine with a downtown filled with energy, businesses, foot traffic and congested streets, no matter what the buildings look like.

In the end, it just didn't have to be this wasteful and time consuming way. It's seriously possible that we'll still be talking about what to do with this space a generation from now.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: vicupstate on September 22, 2020, 01:42:19 PM
This would actually be an opportunity to gauge the success of an idea that was floated over a decade ago for this space.  Mayor Peyton suggested a Merry-Go-Round at the Landing and a Hot Dog Stand on the Main Street bridge.  There is plenty of room for both at the grass lawn now.


 
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on September 22, 2020, 01:57:42 PM
LOL, we can move the fair or the rinky dink carnivals that set up in Regency's empty parking lot there. That will at least save taxpayers from paying for the Merry-Go-Round and Elephant Ear stands.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 22, 2020, 02:37:30 PM
Iconic! Game-changer!
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: thelakelander on September 22, 2020, 04:40:44 PM
If it fails, it won't cost us anything. They'll pack up and drive off. The only negative would be that they'd take their porta-potties with them, leaving us with no public restrooms in the vicinity.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Florida Power And Light on September 22, 2020, 09:19:08 PM
It is a wonderful privilege to have outgrown Jacksonville and ever pandering euphoria over just around the corner “ Potential”.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on September 23, 2020, 09:34:16 AM
Despite the relative lack of activity in the northbank core, it’s funny, coming across the Main Street Bridge these last few mornings, I don’t think I’ve ever seen more cranes across the area. Between the Aetna apartments, FIS, the hospital, Coastline, and what appears to be bulkhead repairs on both sides of the bridge, there’s a lot of work going on.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Steve on September 23, 2020, 11:13:20 AM
Despite the relative lack of activity in the northbank core, it’s funny, coming across the Main Street Bridge these last few mornings, I don’t think I’ve ever seen more cranes across the area. Between the Aetna apartments, FIS, the hospital, Coastline, and what appears to be bulkhead repairs on both sides of the bridge, there’s a lot of work going on.

JEA crane I'd expect in a couple weeks too. I've noticed this as well as it's kinda funny. I expect very little of this work to improve the foot traffic in the downtown core, but there's definitely money being spent.
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: acme54321 on September 23, 2020, 12:13:43 PM
Despite the relative lack of activity in the northbank core, it’s funny, coming across the Main Street Bridge these last few mornings, I don’t think I’ve ever seen more cranes across the area. Between the Aetna apartments, FIS, the hospital, Coastline, and what appears to be bulkhead repairs on both sides of the bridge, there’s a lot of work going on.

Yep.  Noticed this too.  The work on both sides of the river are actually additional and repairs to the docks that were destroyed in Irma.  Funny how as soon as the landing comes down that starts 8)
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on September 23, 2020, 01:04:48 PM
Shame we can't get some outside developers driving through and seeing all the cranes.

They don't even need to know that the cranes are the result of:

1) Our public utility abandoning and likely demolishing their historic headquarters after downsizing to a smaller HQ three blocks away following a failed privatization now being investigated by Federal authorities.
2) Bulkhead repairs neglected for years in an effort to squeeze out and demolish downtown's largest urban retail center, which the city finally accomplished after a $20 million buyout before turning the mall into a grass field.
3) A four-year, $50 million project to knock a parking deck into the river to make way for a new convention center stick-frame apartments on property the city doesn't actually control.
4) A mid-rise apartment building mired in years of litigation.

Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 23, 2020, 02:08:41 PM
Which one is #4 again?
Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: Ken_FSU on September 23, 2020, 02:15:06 PM
Which one is #4 again?

The Ventures apartments over by the Aetna building.

Approved at 300 units/13-floors by the DIA and DDRB.

Ventures was sued by the owners of the Aetna/Eight Forty One building because of the perceived negative impact the new building would have on its employees.

Finally under construction after the two groups reached terms on a building roughly half the size of the original proposal.

Title: Re: A weekend walk at the Jacksonville Landing site
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 23, 2020, 02:27:18 PM
Oh, that one. Yeah, I remember them chopping off the top couple floors.

Didn't the company that owned the Aetna building sell it after they began making their case? Or am I remembering that wrong?