The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: Tacachale on November 21, 2019, 09:30:25 AM

Title: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Tacachale on November 21, 2019, 09:30:25 AM
(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-HrbwcwV/0/67514af3/X3/2019112017140304-2193620399117247436-IMG_7481-X3.jpg)
Quote
Unlike previous downtown demolitions that were accompanied by media blitzes and celebratory fanfare, the city is proceeding quietly with its controversial plan to raze the Jacksonville Landing.

Read more: https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/last-chance-to-see-the-landing-is-quietly-coming-down/
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: sandyshoes on November 21, 2019, 09:54:13 AM
Sorry they could not at least salvage that huge metal roof.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: copperfiend on November 21, 2019, 10:07:55 AM
Cannot wait for our new front lawn
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on November 21, 2019, 10:19:17 AM
Sorry they could not at least salvage that huge metal roof.

So wasteful on so many levels. This type of thing going unchecked and unquestioned in downtown will change. Stay tuned!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: itsfantastic1 on November 21, 2019, 10:59:18 AM
Sorry they could not at least salvage that huge metal roof.

So wasteful on so many levels. This type of thing going unchecked and unquestioned in downtown will change. Stay tuned!

Did you get us a new mayor?!?!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on November 21, 2019, 11:04:42 AM
Reading Nate Monroe's column yesterday, it still boggles the mind that #LyingLenny and his henchmen at JEA haven't been tarred, feathered and run out of town yet. 
 
There is a block-size public space in front of City Hall and within splitting distance of JEA. You would think a public protest would have happened by now.   
   
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Papa33 on November 21, 2019, 12:50:29 PM
Anyone in the company involved in this scheme should not be involved in matters regarding the sale negotiations.  This shows corrupt motive or a motive other than best interest of the customers.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: AdamsOnAdams on November 21, 2019, 02:22:43 PM
This makes me physically ill and fighting mad at the same time. That building could have been renovated to resolve its shortcomings and done in a way that would have preserved its basic shape and iconic features. Instead, we will get a boring “lawn” and a couple of “pads” set far back from the river to build on. Final price tag likely to be well over $30 million. This city is a joke under this mayor.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on November 22, 2019, 10:25:49 AM
This makes me physically ill and fighting mad at the same time. That building could have been renovated to resolve its shortcomings and done in a way that would have preserved its basic shape and iconic features. Instead, we will get a boring “lawn” and a couple of “pads” set far back from the river to build on. Final price tag likely to be well over $30 million. This city is a joke under this mayor.

In the last few months we have been to the City Market in Charleston, Pikes Place Market in Seattle, and the Fish Market in Washington DC.  This is such a huge wasted opportunity.  Oh well.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Vista1877 on November 22, 2019, 11:21:08 AM
Very good point about Seattle, Charleston and DC. The Riverside arts market could have been moved to the Landing along with a farmers market. The Mayor is working for Shan and his development, terrible abuse of power. Lenny is abusing his position like his mentor Trumpty Dumpty.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Bativac on November 22, 2019, 05:47:48 PM
This makes me physically ill and fighting mad at the same time. That building could have been renovated to resolve its shortcomings and done in a way that would have preserved its basic shape and iconic features. Instead, we will get a boring “lawn” and a couple of “pads” set far back from the river to build on. Final price tag likely to be well over $30 million. This city is a joke under this mayor.

In the last few months we have been to the City Market in Charleston, Pikes Place Market in Seattle, and the Fish Market in Washington DC.  This is such a huge wasted opportunity.  Oh well.

There's one of these in Milwaukee, too, which while not exactly packed was still buzzing with activity when I last visited, a few years ago on a Saturday afternoon. The Landing could have been made to work, but as you said... Oh well.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: heights unknown on November 22, 2019, 09:23:22 PM
I am very, very angry...VERY angry! I was just in Jax last weekend; downtown looking far better than when I left in 1995, but, big mistake about the Landing. Will be visiting again soon...with my 3 lawn chairs.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on November 22, 2019, 09:49:46 PM
Good luck. From the sounds of it, it may be fenced off for a quite a while.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Florida Power And Light on November 22, 2019, 10:29:09 PM
I cheered the opening of The Landing and have lived long enough to cheer tearing down.
Soon Open Space, Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch ( dang it all.... dat right der done Water Front!)
An anchor to What is Hoped For.Or at least needed.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: heights unknown on November 23, 2019, 03:25:14 PM
Good luck. From the sounds of it, it may be fenced off for a quite a while.
I'll make the news by climbing over the fence, spreading my plaid table cloth and blanket down, unhitch my lawn chairs, get my juices and brewskies out of the cooler, and y'all can watch me being dragged away by JSO screaming and hollering that it's my front porch, my front lawn, and no one has the right to deny me that since they tore the landing down with no cause, reason, or real explanation. National news I'll be y'all.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: MusicMan on November 23, 2019, 03:45:51 PM
Since it's coming down anyway, I do have the perfect plan for once The Landing is gone:

Make it an I 95 North and South Bound REST AREA. Place a Starbucks with 3 drive through lanes there, and plenty of shady picnic tables/benches. It will bring more traffic to that site than Toney Sleiman ever could, and will bring more economic activity to downtown
(with such a small expenditure) than anything the COJ has on the table right now.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on November 23, 2019, 03:53:29 PM
Anyone else see the irony in an attempt to reurban downtown calling a plot of grass a "front yard".  Talk about not getting it.  Even the language used is from the suburban mindset.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on November 23, 2019, 03:57:58 PM
^It sounds exactly what it looks like. People who have no clue of what they are doing or how to really revitalize downtown, being in charge and blowing a load of public cash to set the area back by another decade.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on November 23, 2019, 11:06:57 PM
Honestly, do they see the urban core as nothing more than a single family home?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on November 23, 2019, 11:48:15 PM
I think because of 50 years of continuous failure, many have bought into inaccurate local assumptions that revitalization is hard and that it cost an arm and a leg to pull off. When things are quite easy if we're willing to get out of our own way.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: mbstout on November 25, 2019, 11:06:24 AM
Looks like the old "T H E   J A C K S O N V I L L E   L A N D I N G" letters have come down off the roof.
I guess they were salvaged.  Would be cool to know what they plans with those are.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on November 25, 2019, 11:13:28 AM
^COJ kept the letters. No idea what they'll do with them.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on November 25, 2019, 11:27:20 AM
^COJ kept the letters. No idea what they'll do with them.

What do you mean 'no idea'. They will sit in some warehouse and rust. The city sits on hundreds (thousands?)of properties and just lets them rot and overgrow. Surely, it will be no different. 
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on November 25, 2019, 12:32:44 PM
If anyone's interested in arranging donation of any Landing artifacts to the Historical Society, Groundwork, etc. you can call the relevant COJ department at 904-255-8762.  I've been indirectly involved in negotiating donation of the Landing's historical figure silhouettes from the food court to Groundwork for display along the Emerald Trail (though they may need some sort of weatherproofing before they can be installed outdoors, as I understand it).
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on November 28, 2019, 08:50:33 PM
Here's some unfortunate close up carnage of what's left of the Landing.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/photo-gallery-demolition-work-continues-at-the-jacksonville-landing
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: BridgeTroll on November 29, 2019, 07:11:48 AM
Sooo...  Not a good spot to watch the Boat Parade?  Perhaps in front of the Hyatt?  The entire "Front Porch" is a demolition zone  >:( :-[
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on November 29, 2019, 02:43:35 PM
Again, how did this happen and no protests from residents?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on November 30, 2019, 10:12:03 AM
Again, how did this happen and no protests from residents?

Because most people were indifferent about the Landing, and have been for 10 years or more.  There also seems to a collective "Who cares about downtown" mentality from a significant portion of the local population.

James Kunstler said it best - there simply aren't any places worth caring about.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Snaketoz on December 01, 2019, 08:39:00 AM
Watching the local coverage of the boat parade was very sad.  I'll always feel that the Landing could have been a very successful place.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 02, 2019, 07:31:41 AM
Watching the local coverage of the boat parade was very sad.  I'll always feel that the Landing could have been a very successful place.

When we lived at 220 Riverside we always walked across the street to watch it, but we didn't drive downtown to watch it this year.  The organizer said on the news that hundreds of people lined the river to watch.  If the crowd numbered in the hundreds then attendance was way down.

My wife read a few days ago that the Christmas tree was going to be at Hemming Park and her reaction was "are they kidding?"  I'm pretty sure that will be the typical local response.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Snaketoz on December 02, 2019, 08:02:19 AM
Yes, Hemming Park.  I guess Curry and company will put it there so only the council, the mayor and staff will see it.  That way they will say it isn't of interest to the public and privatize it.  Next year instead of ornaments the new tree will sell advertising space for small billboards, be on private property and will charge admission.  Instead of an angel on top, there will be a sign advertising why we should sell Jacksonville's port.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 02, 2019, 08:39:19 AM
Yes, Hemming Park.  I guess Curry and company will put it there so only the council, the mayor and staff will see it.  That way they will say it isn't of interest to the public and privatize it.  Next year instead of ornaments the new tree will sell advertising space for small billboards, be on private property and will charge admission.  Instead of an angel on top, there will be a sign advertising why we should sell Jacksonville's port.

I don't know about all that but my question back to her was, "If not Hemming Plaza then where would be better?"

She didn't have an answer for that.  To use the parlance of our time, we don't need a communal front yard, we need a communal living room and preferably one that doesn't have someone sleeping on the couch.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Charles Hunter on December 02, 2019, 09:10:53 AM
Friendship Park? Then, it would still be visible from the Riverwalks and the reflect off the river - like it did when at the Landing.  Hold off on the FP renovation for a few weeks.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 02, 2019, 09:28:34 AM
I'll agree that Friendship Park is as close as Jax has to a signature urban park and would be far better than Hemming Plaza.  At this point though I don't even know if having a Christmas tree on display is even worth the cost if this is the best we can do.  To bad we don't have a Civic Organization that can do something like this:

https://downtownindecember.com/lights-on-broadway/

The Christmas lights on Laura Street were pretty good last year and I would just as soon they do that on all downtown streets.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: sandyshoes on December 02, 2019, 10:10:22 AM
I've always liked the little Christmas decorations they would hang on the light poles in the shopping centers - Orange Park has them along Park Avenue's streetlight poles (for people new to the area, Hwy 17 becomes Park Avenue when you cross into Clay County).  Used to see some Christmas banners downtown hung from the streetlight poles - haven't been downtown in a while so they might be there now for all I know.  [sigh] Truly mourning the demise of The Landing.  And of a society where you could go someplace, even your own front yard, without getting shot at.  Maybe the gangs are tryna make quota so they can have Christmas off...
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 02, 2019, 11:05:34 AM
I've always liked the little Christmas decorations they would hang on the light poles in the shopping centers - Orange Park has them along Park Avenue's streetlight poles (for people new to the area, Hwy 17 becomes Park Avenue when you cross into Clay County).  Used to see some Christmas banners downtown hung from the streetlight poles - haven't been downtown in a while so they might be there now for all I know.  [sigh] Truly mourning the demise of The Landing.  And of a society where you could go someplace, even your own front yard, without getting shot at.  Maybe the gangs are tryna make quota so they can have Christmas off...

Along Laura Street that is exactly what they did last year.  All the trees and had lights and the decorations were hanging from light poles.  It looked pretty cool, but they only did it on one street for about 4 blocks.  It needs to be all of downtown from Water to State and Jefferson to Liberty.  Give people a reason to go downtown because for hells bells, people will wait 3 hours to drive through the lights off Girvin Road.  It wouldn't kill the business owners in Springfield and 5-Points to up their game as well.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 06, 2019, 12:55:33 PM
Does anyone know if the on-ramp to the Main Street Bridge from Independent Drive (which serves as a flyover at the corner of the Landing property) is definitely going to be demolished as well?

The image of Lenny's Lawn shows that, but I was not aware of hearing it was going to happen officially.   
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 06, 2019, 02:05:17 PM
No it's not. Lenny's Lawn is just a drawing on paper. There's no funding for it either. That site will be sodded just like the former City Hall Annex site. It will be dead and inactive at least through 2020.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Charles Hunter on December 06, 2019, 02:12:15 PM
Looking at the FDOT Work Program
Project 435845-1  SR5(US1/MAIN ST) at Independent Drive On Ramp - Bridge Demolition
Fiscal Year 2019/2020 (which is the current fiscal year)  Preliminary Engineering (on-going) $192,051
There is no "Construction" funding through 2024
However, if you look at the link for "View Scheduled Activities" it shows Fiscal Year 2021/2022. I think this means it could be ready for construction, if funding is allocated.
https://fdotewp1.dot.state.fl.us/fmsupportapps/workprogram/Support/WPItemRept.ASPX?RF=WP&D=02&CD=72&ITM=435845~1&RP=ITEM

This means design work is underway, but no money has [yet] been allocated for construction (or demolition, in this case).
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Peter Griffin on December 06, 2019, 02:27:53 PM
Looking at the FDOT Work Program
Project 435845-1  SR5(US1/MAIN ST) at Independent Drive On Ramp - Bridge Demolition
Fiscal Year 2019/2020 (which is the current fiscal year)  Preliminary Engineering (on-going) $192,051
There is no "Construction" funding through 2024
However, if you look at the link for "View Scheduled Activities" it shows Fiscal Year 2021/2022. I think this means it could be ready for construction, if funding is allocated.
https://fdotewp1.dot.state.fl.us/fmsupportapps/workprogram/Support/WPItemRept.ASPX?RF=WP&D=02&CD=72&ITM=435845~1&RP=ITEM

This means design work is underway, but no money has [yet] been allocated for construction (or demolition, in this case).

Keep in mind "Preliminary Engineering" could just be PD&E, which is more-or-less a study of the feasibility and obstacles for a given project, and may include conceptual designs, but likely does not mean they will develop a full set of plans for construction. Final Engineering will likely need to take place before it goes to construction.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Charles Hunter on December 06, 2019, 04:10:50 PM
Nope, PD&E is a separate phase, that precedes PE, and according to the info at the link, has no funding. Probably just do PD&E stuff within the PE (Design) work, since it wouldn't be that much to study.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: sandyshoes on December 12, 2019, 03:50:49 PM
Updated pix of the demolition, as of yesterday:  https://www.jacksonville.com/photogallery/LK/20191212/PHOTOGALLERY/121209990/PH/1
Where is this debris being moved to...is anyone scrapping the metal and putting the money to good use - it belonged to the City, so I would think that $$$ could help a lot of programs.  I hope the palm trees won't be scuttled as well.  No reason they should be, but then again there was no reason to do any of this.  Very, very sad. 
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Charles Hunter on December 12, 2019, 04:12:39 PM
Doesn't the salvageable material typically belong to the demolition company?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: fieldafm on December 12, 2019, 04:50:09 PM
Quote
Doesn't the salvageable material typically belong to the demolition company?

Yes.

Quote
I hope the palm trees won't be scuttled as well. 

Barring unforeseen issues, the demo contract stipulated that all trees and light posts remain (functional) on site.

Quote
but then again there was no reason to do any of this.  Very, very sad. 

Also, yes!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: JaGoaT on December 12, 2019, 09:54:24 PM
Just saw the pic of everything basically cleared out and it just shifted my opinion. I see the vision for a beautiful park being built there. The downside of the vision is the city’s track record with keeping up with parks.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 12, 2019, 10:02:07 PM
^There is no park or vision. No money has been budgeted for anything outside of laying down sod. Just a bunch of babble of what could happen down the road in the form of studies and RFPs. Same stuff that's been said about most city owned property since the 1970s. What we're getting is what was done with the City Hall Annex and Courthouse sites:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU12062019/i-QSnPhd5/0/40cb6937/X3/20191206_141513-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/UCU12062019/i-K8gV3v3/0/290a67c6/X3/20191206_141519-X3.jpg)

Spaces void of consistent activity and people. Characteristics associated with dead, pedestrian hostile environments.

What's shown above is a far cry from good urban parks that cost millions to build and maintain:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Chicago/May-2017/i-S8nmhXk/0/18ddda15/X3/20180512_181809-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Chicago/May-2017/i-75xwpLj/0/3cd390dc/X3/20180512_182119-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Chicago/May-2017/i-8hs9KfZ/0/9e2863d1/X3/20180512_182738-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Chicago/May-2017/i-3PQvp2N/0/aa5682ef/X3/20180512_183331-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Chicago/May-2017/i-FwhNrJm/0/92c6dfb6/X3/20180512_181916-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Chicago/May-2017/i-5PhDSXg/0/fd809b37/X3/20180512_181538-X3.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Chicago/May-2017/i-6Mjr9X7/0/20e02421/X3/20180512_181506-X3.jpg)
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 13, 2019, 09:33:07 AM
Just saw the pic of everything basically cleared out and it just shifted my opinion. I see the vision for a beautiful park being built there. The downside of the vision is the city’s track record with keeping up with parks.

Jacksonville doesn't have the money .  Urban parks cost millions to build and one the size of the Landing property would be in the $35-50 million dollar range. And then when it was done it would still be over-run with homeless people.  Until Jax fixes the homeless problem downtown will never be more than what it is today.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Snaketoz on December 13, 2019, 09:49:43 AM
Just saw the pic of everything basically cleared out and it just shifted my opinion. I see the vision for a beautiful park being built there. The downside of the vision is the city’s track record with keeping up with parks.

Jacksonville doesn't have the money .  Urban parks cost millions to build and one the size of the Landing property would be in the $35-50 million dollar range. And then when it was done it would still be over-run with homeless people.  Until Jax fixes the homeless problem downtown will never be more than what it is today.
While I tend to agree with the homeless situation, I think it is easily fixable.  Instead of squandering millions of dollars on questionable "crime fighting aids" like "shot-spotter", and giving big bucks to groups that claim to fight crime, have some good ole flatfoots (police) walking or even riding in golf carts in the area.  That's a crime deterrent. Also consider giving tickets to those who hand out money to bums.  Call it aiding and abetting vagrancy and loitering.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 13, 2019, 10:40:24 AM
I certainly hope the demo contractor, D.H. Griffin, has been told to leave the foundation concrete in place with lots of pock marks and holes and such. Otherwise, it just wouldn't fit in with the rest of the vacant lots in DT Jacksonville. 
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Ken_FSU on December 13, 2019, 11:16:25 AM
I travel a lot for work, and the more cities that I visit, the tamer Jacksonville's "homeless problem" seems. It really isn't that bad, and it certainly isn't unique. I've been working downtown for a couple of years now, walking the streets in the morning, afternoon, and evening, and I can count on one hand the numbers of times that I've been asked for money, and can count on less than one finger the number of times I've ever felt threatened or in danger. Yes, there are homeless people around ("bums" implies lack of ambition, when mental illness seems equally common), but a relatively minor homeless population is the least of downtown's worries, and certainly isn't the singular thing holding our urban core back.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Tacachale on December 13, 2019, 11:52:34 AM
I travel a lot for work, and the more cities that I visit, the tamer Jacksonville's "homeless problem" seems. It really isn't that bad, and it certainly isn't unique. I've been working downtown for a couple of years now, walking the streets in the morning, afternoon, and evening, and I can count on one hand the numbers of times that I've been asked for money, and can count on less than one finger the number of times I've ever felt threatened or in danger. Yes, there are homeless people around ("bums" implies lack of ambition, when mental illness seems equally common), but a relatively minor homeless population is the least of downtown's worries, and certainly isn't the singular thing holding our urban core back.

Right? I'm sure it's a big change for suburbanites but it's definitely not unique among other cities, especially those with warm weather and good social services. The main difference is that in Jax there aren't as many people downtown in general so the homeless stand out more. As far as panhandling goes, I've been panhandled much more in Riverside recently than Downtown.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Steve on December 13, 2019, 12:30:36 PM
I travel a lot for work, and the more cities that I visit, the tamer Jacksonville's "homeless problem" seems. It really isn't that bad, and it certainly isn't unique. I've been working downtown for a couple of years now, walking the streets in the morning, afternoon, and evening, and I can count on one hand the numbers of times that I've been asked for money, and can count on less than one finger the number of times I've ever felt threatened or in danger. Yes, there are homeless people around ("bums" implies lack of ambition, when mental illness seems equally common), but a relatively minor homeless population is the least of downtown's worries, and certainly isn't the singular thing holding our urban core back.


I’ve always felt the number of homeless isn’t the issue. The issue is the percentage of total people downtown that the homeless represent.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Ken_FSU on December 13, 2019, 12:57:36 PM
^It's funny Bill, I almost mentioned this in my post. Downtown may have more homeless, but Riverside has a much bigger panhandling problem. Way more asks. Way more aggressive. And even then, I wouldn't call Riverside in any way atypical compared to other cities.

100% agree on the second point. The biggest problem isn't that there are too many homeless, but rather there are too few non-homeless. William Whyte had the best quote ever, "the best way to deal with the problem of undesirables is to make a place desirable for everyone else." As downtown continues to come along, the homeless issue should start to take care of itself. Look at Hemming Park pre-FHOP vs. current day. There are still "undesirables" (hate this word) in the park, but you barely notice them and you certainly don't feel threatened because there are so many other office workers, and families, and staff, and police in the park as well.

Would also argue, in addition to the presence of social services, the "homeless problem" downtown is greatly exacerbated by the overall condition of downtown Jacksonville. Broken window theory suggests that physical blight begets human blight. Buildings like the Laura Street Trio, Ambassador, old JEA Tower, Jones Furniture, Berkman II, and the dozens of other vacant, unkempt, graffiti-covered buildings surrounded by chain link fence and razor wire give the impression of lawlessness, causing people to behave accordingly in terms of panhandling and crime.

As more and more of these projects come on line and are completed, I think we'll see many of these (already overstated) problems with crime (read: public urination and drug use, not violent murder and rape) start to disappear.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Josh on December 13, 2019, 01:30:13 PM
^^^ Pretty much. Never been panhandled in over a decade of walking through Hemming Park/Plaza, but I get panhandled in 5 Points regularly.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Fallen Buckeye on December 15, 2019, 02:09:41 PM
There's actually a good bit of homeless in suburban Jax, too. I was just panhandled the other day at my office just off of JTB. I get panhandled at the Chaffee Rd. library from time to time, and I saw 2-3 homeless people hanging out in the Barnes and Noble in Mandarin the other day. The homeless are not a good excuse not to do good things for our city. Honestly, we should consider dropping a few million to help the homeless problem and invest in our public spaces as well.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Florida Power And Light on December 15, 2019, 05:46:18 PM
Landing area future open space likely would not be a haven for homeless when the immediate surrounding area becomes peopled and vibrant.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: TimmyB on December 16, 2019, 03:39:21 PM
We only lived in Jax for nine months but this saddens me greatly to see this waste.  We were in DT the 2nd week of November and had no idea this was even happening.  The Landing was one of the first things we saw in DT when we first visited Jacksonville in 2009 and we thought it was such a cool looking structure with a great view of the river. 

Reading the other posts, I completely agree that this will become just another vacant spot.  The one thing we disliked about Jacksonville was the fact that DT had no life whatsoever.  We love to ride bikes and run and in most every big city we visit, there are gobs of people doing this, right in the heart of their DT area.  At 5 pm, everyone gets out of work and heads home and...crickets.  This could be fixed, but when you tear down a building like this and replace it with more grass, ain't happening.

I hope that we are all wrong, that this will work out but based on this city's track record, no one is holding their breath, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Florida Power And Light on December 18, 2019, 09:13:12 AM
So many apparently fail to imagine or grasp that Landing area conversion to public waterfront open space could be a superb anchor for the immediate area, “ destination “.
Perhaps some would prefer residential on the property. I say public waterfront is too valuable for residential.

Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch.......with a View!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 18, 2019, 09:27:15 AM
You're failing to consider our reality. There's no money dedicated to the dream you're selling. $25 million for a grass lot is what we're getting for the foreseeable future. That grass lot is likely to be just as popular as the grass lot a few blocks away where the old courthouse and city hall annex used to stand.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: itsfantastic1 on December 18, 2019, 10:41:58 AM
So many apparently fail to imagine or grasp that Landing area conversion to public waterfront open space could be a superb anchor for the immediate area, “ destination “.
Perhaps some would prefer residential on the property. I say public waterfront is too valuable for residential.

Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch.......with a View!

You're right. No residential. Instead, lets put some shops for people to spend their money and go there. Also, lets make sure we have restaurants right on the water for that fine riverfront dining experience. For public space, we can create a nice big courtyard facing the river unobstructed. Might have to curve the building to maximize the site space. It'd be perfect for the Christmas tree from Hemming. Our front porch though should be iconic, something easily recognizable from far away...maybe an orange roof perhaps?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Peter Griffin on December 18, 2019, 10:57:19 AM
So many apparently fail to imagine or grasp that Landing area conversion to public waterfront open space could be a superb anchor for the immediate area, “ destination “.
Perhaps some would prefer residential on the property. I say public waterfront is too valuable for residential.

Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch.......with a View!

You're right. No residential. Instead, lets put some shops for people to spend their money and go there. Also, lets make sure we have restaurants right on the water for that fine riverfront dining experience. For public space, we can create a nice big courtyard facing the river unobstructed. Might have to curve the building to maximize the site space. It'd be perfect for the Christmas tree from Hemming. Our front porch though should be iconic, something easily recognizable from far away...maybe an orange roof perhaps?

We had that structure for 30 years and it never lived up to its potential
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: itsfantastic1 on December 18, 2019, 11:10:52 AM
So many apparently fail to imagine or grasp that Landing area conversion to public waterfront open space could be a superb anchor for the immediate area, “ destination “.
Perhaps some would prefer residential on the property. I say public waterfront is too valuable for residential.

Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch.......with a View!

You're right. No residential. Instead, lets put some shops for people to spend their money and go there. Also, lets make sure we have restaurants right on the water for that fine riverfront dining experience. For public space, we can create a nice big courtyard facing the river unobstructed. Might have to curve the building to maximize the site space. It'd be perfect for the Christmas tree from Hemming. Our front porch though should be iconic, something easily recognizable from far away...maybe an orange roof perhaps?

We had that structure for 30 years and it never lived up to its potential

My sarcastic point was that we tore it down without a plan and now we pretty much want the exact same thing, but in a different building.  The building isn't what failed. It was lack of trust between owner and city on renovations and parking, which lead to it's "failed" state. So instead, for $25 million, we get grass and no plan, just hope. Boy, imagine what $25 millions would've done to solve the parking problem or renovate some of the outdated building.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Tacachale on December 18, 2019, 11:11:08 AM
So many apparently fail to imagine or grasp that Landing area conversion to public waterfront open space could be a superb anchor for the immediate area, “ destination “.
Perhaps some would prefer residential on the property. I say public waterfront is too valuable for residential.

Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch.......with a View!

You're right. No residential. Instead, lets put some shops for people to spend their money and go there. Also, lets make sure we have restaurants right on the water for that fine riverfront dining experience. For public space, we can create a nice big courtyard facing the river unobstructed. Might have to curve the building to maximize the site space. It'd be perfect for the Christmas tree from Hemming. Our front porch though should be iconic, something easily recognizable from far away...maybe an orange roof perhaps?

 ;D
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 18, 2019, 11:40:25 AM
So many apparently fail to imagine or grasp that Landing area conversion to public waterfront open space could be a superb anchor for the immediate area, “ destination “.
Perhaps some would prefer residential on the property. I say public waterfront is too valuable for residential.

Jacksonville’s Gracious Front Porch.......with a View!

You're right. No residential. Instead, lets put some shops for people to spend their money and go there. Also, lets make sure we have restaurants right on the water for that fine riverfront dining experience. For public space, we can create a nice big courtyard facing the river unobstructed. Might have to curve the building to maximize the site space. It'd be perfect for the Christmas tree from Hemming. Our front porch though should be iconic, something easily recognizable from far away...maybe an orange roof perhaps?

We had that structure for 30 years and it never lived up to its potential

My sarcastic point was that we tore it down without a plan and now we pretty much want the exact same thing, but in a different building.  The building isn't what failed. It was lack of trust between owner and city on renovations and parking, which lead to it's "failed" state. So instead, for $25 million, we get grass and no plan, just hope. Boy, imagine what $25 millions would've done to solve the parking problem or renovate some of the outdated building.

To say nothing of the fact that just $12 mm would have gotten a new project there under the Brown administration. 
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 18, 2019, 01:50:12 PM
^Bingo! For half the expense, the place (with additional green space) would have been completed and open by now.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Papa33 on December 18, 2019, 01:53:07 PM
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2019/12/18/city-must-pay-37-million-to-former-jacksonville-landing-owner-judge-rules/
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 18, 2019, 02:16:10 PM
^We knew that was coming. Sleiman put Curry over his knees and spanked him badly with the Landing situation. Unfortunately, it simply means the taxpayers and downtown lose.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Steve on December 18, 2019, 03:14:28 PM
Man, let's do a Curry approval poll now! I'm sure it would look amazing with all that's going on.

And yea, that one was pretty obvious to see. So Sleiman got almost $19 to walk away - clearly he won that round.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Tacachale on December 18, 2019, 04:38:03 PM
We covered this back in March. The final number came out somewhat less than what it could have cost us.

https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/east-lot-litigation-will-add-4-million-to-landing-cost/
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on December 19, 2019, 12:15:29 PM
I will preface by saying I'm Team "Jax should've kept the Landing", mainly because it had alot of significant infrastructure already in place. It seems like in quite a few cities, (not all) the festival marketplace concept hasn't held up in today's age. It seems like the festival marketplaces that are successful (like Norfolk's Waterside for instance) the focus is more on dining options moreso than retail. In any case, significant renovations are needed for a 80s-90s era festival marketplace to "Keep up with the Joneses" (and even that's not foolproof).

In the 5th most populous US city (11th largest metro) Phoenix, AZ, they have the Arizona Center. The Arizona Center looks like a giant version of the under-utilized Landing. It is basically a ghost town, right in the middle of the Valley of the Sun; entire floors are empty, and some doctors offices etc are unconventional and haphazardly scattered in some spaces. San Diego's Westfield Horton Plaza is similar. Here's a good recent video below showcasing the "jewel" in PHX, the Arizona Center.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1wio6Ewu1U
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 19, 2019, 12:58:36 PM
Horton Plaza is dead?  I went there in early 2000's I think and it seem quite popular.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 19, 2019, 01:04:11 PM
It was fairly dead when I visited San Diego two years ago. It's a mall with the same chains that have been filing for bankruptcy nationwide. Doesn't mean the structure is obsolete. Just means that tenant mix and uses will need to evolve with the chaining retail market.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on December 19, 2019, 05:49:38 PM
I think that it very important that the Arizona Center in PHX was totally remodeled (it looks nice and modern, with award winning landscaping etc) but it still is a failure; that ROI definitely didn't add up. IMO concerning festival marketplaces, some cities have all of the stars are lined up as the scene is bustling (the Boston's and Baltimore's of the world) then you have the others that have to transform into a mom and pop marketplaces, and others in between.

IMO urban retail is the most risky (more riskier than indoor malls) for a myriad of reasons. Urban dining establishments, small specialty shops and nightlife is the way to go. Hell, even the NYC and London (in certain areas) are having problems, because of the astronomical rent prices.

The Landing shouldn't have been torn down, esp with nothing taking its place. I'm just gonna say it (it might not be popular) the only thing that is worse than the Landing being torn down, would be if the Landing had an extensive renovation, only to be the Arizona Center 2.0 (in other words, a severely under utilized property with ROI in the red).
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 19, 2019, 08:31:09 PM
You could renovate into a million things. Buildings don't have to be urban retail. Festival marketplaces have also been turned into urban colleges, food halls and museums.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 20, 2019, 08:25:18 AM
For better or worse, the Landing is gone.  Now the city has complete control of what 12 acres?  I doubt it will be anything other than a vacant lot for some time. That said, what is the highest and best use of the property? What is most likely the most economically profitable? Does the parking lot even need to be a parking lot now that the destination it served is gone?

While we are waiting for something to happen, I do hope the city goes full spend ahead with removing the Main St. bridge on-ramp. It adds nothing to the site's value and significantly detracts from it, IMO.

BTW, any word on the Hyatt Place that was suppose to go up across Independent Drive?     
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 08:50:39 AM
The highest and best use is rebuilding a mix of what has been destroyed. That's something I hope we don't spend much time and money on studying because it's a big waste and simply extends the time of the site remaining dormant. Just look at the City Hall Annex site as an example. Lots of talk, media puff pieces, marking and branding but today's reality is two blocks of dead space. Quite frankly, the immediate re-use opportunity has been lost, so more priority should be given to areas where immediate placemaking can happen (ex. Adams, Laura, Hogan, Hemming Park, etc.).

Nevertheless, Curry and Hughes have been such a disaster for downtown, the area may benefit from them focusing on other issues facing the city and leaving DT's future independently in the hands of the DIA.

Last time I heard Hyatt Place will begin once the VyStar project gets further along. Right now, it appears to be using the Hyatt Place area as a staging area.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: tufsu1 on December 20, 2019, 09:06:24 AM
The best part of the Landing being demolished is there is now a wonderful view of the PWC/VyStar parking garage from the Main Street Bridge and from Friendship Fountain!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Peter Griffin on December 20, 2019, 09:19:47 AM
rode my bike to the Landing last night on a whim. I found it to be in only a slightly different state than when I last saw it:

last time I was allowed to go in, but there was nothing that I wanted to do there

this time there was still nothing to do there, but I wasn't allowed in anyhow


made me realize that I had first been to the landing 20 years ago when the brewery and toy store were still active. I was about 10.

I maybe visited the Landing 5 more times in the following 20 years. It was dead long before it came down
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 20, 2019, 09:48:24 AM
I have a hard time seeing retail working there, unless it is 10-20k SF or less, and even that is a stretch. It would be reminiscent of those little shops on the Southbank Riverwalk.  There just isn't any reason to go there for locals or tourists, and there is no permanent population in place.

I would just leave it fallow for now and work on the Laura Street corridor between there and Hemming Plaza. IF DONE RIGHT (yeah, I know this is JAX), it would be a good location for a major public park or garden, but with Lot J/Shipyards being in direct competition, I can't see that being successful either.     

 
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 10:32:03 AM
I would work on other areas of need now because current leadership has proven beyond a doubt that downtown revitalization isn't a strong suit. Give the DIA some autonomy and let's see what can happen under that scenario.

When we look across the country, these types of buildings are being reused as a mix of uses that more align with today's market. More footprint oriented to locally based and themed businesses, restaurants/dining, entertainment and cultural use and less for traditional retail. However, we don't need a public study to determine these types of things. Issuing a RFP for a new operator with experience would have been fine.

Naturally we tend to focus on prospects for traditional retail, yet we also downplay the impact of the toxic public private partnership dating back to the Landing's opening and its impact on the situation. The toxic partnership appeared to end during the Brown administration and a redevelopment plan was going forward. It started again with Curry and ended with Curry getting taken to the woodshed by Sleiman at the taxpayer's expense. Nevertheless, once it was in the city's hands, the possibility of adaptive reuse to literally anything was as high as it would ever be. Businesses surviving that toxic battle illustrate there is a demand for certain types of commercial uses at the location.

The Shipyards remains a pipe dream that will die with the next recession. I'm not even confident Lot J will materialize or be successful long term. Unless we're selling JEA, I truly question how we'll come up with those types of incentives and what will suffer from diverting that much money for something that's already happening within a three block radius of Hemming Park.

Regardless of what happens over there, due to its centralized location, the Landing site will continue to have the same potential. However, even if we turned it into an 100% park, it would still need retail, dining and other uses to activate it. That's pretty consistent across the board with vibrant urban parks across the country. Especially in this case, since there's not an interactive outer square to generate consistent pedestrian foot traffic and life. Without those uses, it's no more attractive than Metropolitan Park or the grass lots where City Hall Annex and the County Courthouse once stood.

Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 20, 2019, 11:45:37 AM
I agree that even a park would need to be bordered by things that would activate it.

Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 11:53:24 AM
rode my bike to the Landing last night on a whim. I found it to be in only a slightly different state than when I last saw it:

last time I was allowed to go in, but there was nothing that I wanted to do there

this time there was still nothing to do there, but I wasn't allowed in anyhow


made me realize that I had first been to the landing 20 years ago when the brewery and toy store were still active. I was about 10.

I maybe visited the Landing 5 more times in the following 20 years. It was dead long before it came down

Just because you personally saw no value in what was there does not mean it was empty or offered no value to others. Places like Hooters and Fionns were reliable in that they were consistently open at night for those who are downtown on a consistent basis. About 30 businesses were evicted in the process. That equates to a few million in tax dollars being used to evict businesses and hundreds of jobs lost. I can only imagine how someone staying at Hyatt or Omni feel walking around searching for something open at night or during the weekends during a stay in downtown right now. So to say it was dead long before it came down is an inaccurate assumption.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Peter Griffin on December 20, 2019, 12:46:22 PM
So to say it was dead long before it came down is an inaccurate assumption.

I'm stating a personal anecdote, not a factual account. Dead to me, dead as in "dead mall"

Factually, though, it WAS in severe decline. Sleiman gave up anticipating the city giving up, and they both came together to sell it off and tear it down. In the end the people who had the most vested in keeping it thriving gave up on it. Tenants can't fix that, the tenants didn't draw the activity that warranted such a space, the emptiness of the whole structure was uninviting and eerie outside of special events; there were lots of times I rode right past and wondered if the place had closed.

I think it coming down is a shame. I think the state it was in and the fact that it was WORSE 20 years after I first visited was an even bigger shame.


My overall take on the whole matter as it stands is that what is, is, and it's coming down, nearly gone. Lamenting what could have been if only we had kept the structure, or let Brown's proposal go through, or if we had sold the land to Sleiman, is completely unproductive. In its final years it was in a sad state and only declining. Living in the past or in the land of coulda woulda shoulda doesn't do me any favors.

tl;dr - Rest In Peace, Jacksonville Landing.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 20, 2019, 12:53:47 PM
Do we know what exactly the proposal during the Brown administration was, and what it was anticipated to look like? 

There have been so many plans, renderings and Hot-Dog-Cart-on-a-napkin drawings that I honestly lost track. 
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 12:59:52 PM
I'm stating a personal anecdote, not a factual account. Dead to me, dead as in "dead mall"

I understand. However, from a revitalization perspective, my view is to analysis things outside of personal anecdotes in order to not keep doing the same things from the past, expecting different outcomes and lamenting when ending up in failure again.

Quote
Factually, though, it WAS in severe decline. Sleiman gave up anticipating the city giving up, and they both came together to sell it off and tear it down. In the end the people who had the most vested in keeping it thriving gave up on it.

Factually, downtown and the urban core has been in decline for a number of years. However, there are ways to turn both around.

Quote
Tenants can't fix that, the tenants didn't draw the activity that warranted such a space, the emptiness of the whole structure was uninviting and eerie outside of special events; there were lots of times I rode right past and wondered if the place had closed.

The tenants that were left should have been given awards for the crap they had to put up with. Decline had a lot less to do with the market and more to do with politics, legal battles and strategies between the two parties in ownership.

Quote
I think it coming down is a shame. I think the state it was in and the fact that it was WORSE 20 years after I first visited was an even bigger shame.

The indecision of if it and when the site was going to revamped and the following legal battle between Curry and Sleiman took its tool during the final couple of years.

Quote
My overall take on the whole matter as it stands is that what is, is, and it's coming down, nearly gone. Lamenting what could have been if only we had kept the structure, or let Brown's proposal go through, or if we had sold the land to Sleiman, is completely unproductive. In its final years it was in a sad state and only declining. Living in the past or in the land of coulda woulda shoulda doesn't do me any favors.

tl;dr - Rest In Peace, Jacksonville Landing.

My overall take is quite different. Sweeping the matter under the rug and coming up with another study and gimmick project is what we've done with most demolitions over the past 40 years. At some point, you have to keep what has failed in the forefront in order to not repeat the same mistakes at the next site down the road. At some point, you have to stop and do different.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Peter Griffin on December 20, 2019, 01:20:21 PM
My overall take is quite different. Sweeping the matter under the rug and coming up with another study and gimmick project is what we've done with most demolitions over the past 40 years. At some point, you have to keep what has failed in the forefront in order to not repeat the same mistakes at the next site down the road. At some point, you have to stop and do different.

I don't have to do anything, I'm an anonymous person posting on a forum. I already do my part by patronizing downtown businesses. I have absolutely no say in the revitalization of downtown or any other area in Jacksonville or anywhere else. 

Nobody else has to do anything else, either. I take umbrage with absolute language.

If the powers that be want downtown to thrive, then it may not be wise to demolish underperforming buildings without either considering adaptive reuse or having an immediate replacement plan. I think that's your entire point here, and one I agree with, but on the point of the landing it is unfortunately too late and the powers that be aren't likely to be reading this forum and being emboldened by my comments, nor discouraged by others.

I'm in the final stage of grief with the Landing, there's no need to "correct" me on that.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
Do we know what exactly the proposal during the Brown administration was, and what it was anticipated to look like? 

There have been so many plans, renderings and Hot-Dog-Cart-on-a-napkin drawings that I honestly lost track. 

Yes.  After years of not being able to work out of deal with the city to revamp parts of the existing structure and add new use infill (hotel, apartments, etc.), the agreed upon proposal would have razed the structure and replaced it with other uses that Sleiman would have developed. Essentially, restaurants, retail along the riverfront, a hotel and apartment structures with ground floor retail in both. By razing the buildings closest to the river, there would have been space for an interactive park. COJ actually paid for the design plans.

(https://photos.moderncities.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-fxt3cwZ/0/077f9a43/L/Jacksonville%20Landing%20-%20WB2-L.jpg)

Now being a preservationist myself, I wasn't big fan of putting a smaller version of DC's National Harbor on the site under the talk of it being unique but it had a few important things going for it that we don't have now.

1. A qualified developer with experience already in ownership and on board.

2. Only $12 million in public subsidies was requested. The rest would have been from the developer.

3. Quick time line. The developer was ready to move on it and we were in the middle of great market conditions.

So regardless of whether it was an adaptive reuse or 100% tear down and rebuild as something else, it was something positive that had community input within the limits allowed and was poised to immediately move forward. By now, we'd be enjoying a lively site already and moved on to addressing the next issue/site.

In the end, a new mayor came in with a different set of priorities (still largely unknown to most in town), killed the entire plan, started a court battle the owner to wrestle 100% control of the property, overpaid for it and then lost the court battle only to raze the entire site with nothing else lined up and ready to move forward for years to come. So instead of $12 million to assist in improving and adding on to the existing tenant mix, we've spent $22 million to close businesses, lose hundreds of existing downtown jobs to have a water front pad site. We're fooling ourselves if we think the operator of this disastrous funding scenario and outcome is going to magically transform the property into a glorious park or anything else before the current 4 year term is up. We've been set back a generation on those moves. Learning means not buying in to the same old Jax talk about don't worry, big things are on the way. Understanding how lost opportunities are missed is how to make sure we take advantage of others that still remain.

(https://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wjct/files/styles/large/public/201905/2212jacksonville_perspovalpark01editpeople_dc_sm_.jpeg)

(https://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wjct/files/styles/large/public/201905/2212perspviews_sm_fountain.jpeg)

(https://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wjct/files/styles/large/public/201905/2212perspviews_sm_park.jpeg)

Now the stuff above was what Sleiman intended to develop but at least it was real. With the building razed, if this is what the public desired at the time, the best thing we could do is issue a RFP like yesterday instead of doing more studying.

Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 01:33:48 PM
My overall take is quite different. Sweeping the matter under the rug and coming up with another study and gimmick project is what we've done with most demolitions over the past 40 years. At some point, you have to keep what has failed in the forefront in order to not repeat the same mistakes at the next site down the road. At some point, you have to stop and do different.

I don't have to do anything, I'm an anonymous person posting on a forum. I already do my part by patronizing downtown businesses. I have absolutely no say in the revitalization of downtown or any other area in Jacksonville or anywhere else. 

Nobody else has to do anything else, either. I take umbrage with absolute language.

If the powers that be want downtown to thrive, then it may not be wise to demolish underperforming buildings without either considering adaptive reuse or having an immediate replacement plan. I think that's your entire point here, and one I agree with, but on the point of the landing it is unfortunately too late and the powers that be aren't likely to be reading this forum and being emboldened by my comments, nor discouraged by others.

I'm in the final stage of grief with the Landing, there's no need to "correct" me on that.

I understand your take, I was just sharing mine as someone who is interested in seeing the urban core properly revitalized sooner rather than later and through methods that bring the highest ROI for tax dollars invested.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 02:46:03 PM
Could you imagine Curry running for office promising to do what he has actually done (or at least wants to do)?

Tear down the Landing (replaced by nothing)
Tear down the Courthouse Annex (replaced by nothing)
Sell JEA
Not fix Memorial Park or the Northbank Riverwalk
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 03:03:12 PM
I can't imagine him successfully running for another office if things don't get turned around quick, although that's not saying much. I never imagined Trump would become president either.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Papa33 on December 20, 2019, 03:11:43 PM
Could you imagine Curry running for office promising to do what he has actually done (or at least wants to do)?

Tear down the Landing (replaced by nothing)
Tear down the Courthouse Annex (replaced by nothing)
Sell JEA
Not fix Memorial Park or the Northbank Riverwalk
I would also add the harebrained idea of a  convention center and hotel that was so out of proportion and scale of what Jacksonville’s budget could support and what it would ever need.  I have no problem with the  new convention center, but not the one  of the size and scale being proposed.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 03:16:27 PM
My guess is that one would focus on the positive rather than the negative in selling themselves. So....Lot J (assuming the first phase is completed), Brooklyn (even though things got started prior to his first term), VyStar coming downtown, Vestcor's work in LaVilla and Fidelity's plans to expand their headquarters in Brooklyn.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on December 20, 2019, 03:30:21 PM
I can't imagine him successfully running for another office if things don't get turned around quick, although that's not saying much. I never imagined Trump would become president either.

Sometimes I think Herb and John Peyton put Curry where he is, so John wouldn't look as bad by comparison.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 06:15:03 PM
My guess is that one would focus on the positive rather than the negative in selling themselves. So....Lot J (assuming the first phase is completed), Brooklyn (even though things got started prior to his first term), VyStar coming downtown, Vestcor's work in LaVilla and Fidelity's plans to expand their headquarters in Brooklyn.

He won't be selling downtown progress, at least not to the 99% of Jax that doesn't care about that.  All people know about downtown is the Landing is gone.  My wife has lived in Jacksonville most of her life and she didn't even know there was a part of town called Brooklyn until she met me.  And what is the big progress in Brooklyn to even be proud of, a gas station an apartment building and a small shopping center?  Have you seen the Town Center area lately?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 20, 2019, 07:29:36 PM
He can claim Town Center too. It isn't located in a separate city. Anyway seems like Lot J and selling JEA are his legacy moves. Neither is guaranteed to actually happen.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 20, 2019, 07:46:24 PM
If Curry tries to claim the Town Center he would get laugh off the stage.  The Town Center opened 14 years ago.  I guess he could claim spending $18 million to Amazon, but not sure if he wants to own up to corporate welfare.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: tufsu1 on December 21, 2019, 08:58:12 PM
^ Lakelander means the Town Center is in Jacksonville - so Mayor Curry can take some credit for anything that has happened there since 2015
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on December 21, 2019, 09:32:22 PM
^ Lakelander means the Town Center is in Jacksonville - so Mayor Curry can take some credit for anything that has happened there since 2015

Yea, I know what he meant, but the Town Center isn't the result of any City involvement other than plan reviews, permits, and streets (which is probably why it is so successful).  It's not Like Curry was out there cutting a ribbon at the new Hobby Lobby.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Charles Hunter on December 21, 2019, 09:38:06 PM
^ Lakelander means the Town Center is in Jacksonville - so Mayor Curry can take some credit for anything that has happened there since 2015

Yea, I know what he meant, but the Town Center isn't the result of any City involvement other than plan reviews, permits, and streets (which is probably why it is so successful).  It's not Like Curry was out there cutting a ribbon at the new Hobby Lobby.

Why should that stop a lying politician from claiming credit for something he had no part in?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on December 22, 2019, 07:20:04 AM
^ Lakelander means the Town Center is in Jacksonville - so Mayor Curry can take some credit for anything that has happened there since 2015

Yea, I know what he meant, but the Town Center isn't the result of any City involvement other than plan reviews, permits, and streets (which is probably why it is so successful).  It's not Like Curry was out there cutting a ribbon at the new Hobby Lobby.
Brooklyn's and downtown's redevelopment started prior to Curry's first term. Claiming influence on market rate projects there would be no different from making a claim on similar development all across town. Oh and yes, politicians in general do make such claims.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: avonjax on December 31, 2019, 07:02:44 PM
So to say it was dead long before it came down is an inaccurate assumption.

I'm stating a personal anecdote, not a factual account. Dead to me, dead as in "dead mall"

Factually, though, it WAS in severe decline. Sleiman gave up anticipating the city giving up, and they both came together to sell it off and tear it down. In the end the people who had the most vested in keeping it thriving gave up on it. Tenants can't fix that, the tenants didn't draw the activity that warranted such a space, the emptiness of the whole structure was uninviting and eerie outside of special events; there were lots of times I rode right past and wondered if the place had closed.

I think it coming down is a shame. I think the state it was in and the fact that it was WORSE 20 years after I first visited was an even bigger shame.


My overall take on the whole matter as it stands is that what is, is, and it's coming down, nearly gone. Lamenting what could have been if only we had kept the structure, or let Brown's proposal go through, or if we had sold the land to Sleiman, is completely unproductive. In its final years it was in a sad state and only declining. Living in the past or in the land of coulda woulda shoulda doesn't do me any favors.

tl;dr - Rest In Peace, Jacksonville Landing.

Even though you are young you will probably never see anything worth visiting in your lifetime. Believe me, I've been waiting for many, many years for downtown to reach it's potential. I don't think it ever will. Reusing the Landing could have had a similar draw as the Riverside Art Market if done properly, but now we will never know. We do get to have hundreds of studies with the same results. NOTHING! Like I posted a while back I have given up on DT as a place for people not living there to go. Let me add I worked at several places DT when I was young in the sixties and seventies and I have watched it be demolished ever since. The worse part is most people really don't care. When downtown has something to offer there is nothing else like it.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Snaketoz on December 31, 2019, 07:28:18 PM
I too grew up in a time when downtown Jacksonville was THE place-for everything.  Before we had any malls we had great stores.  I loved Rosenblum's, Wolf Bros, Furchgotts', May-Cohens, Iveys', etc.  There was the Empress, Imperial, Center, Florida, theaters.  Many nightspots in the many hotels, and with an assortment of restaurants and Morrison's cafeteria.  "Shorter line in the Carriage Room".  I always felt like I was somebody back then.  I could go downtown on my own and everything was convenient. The people working in the stores were career people who knew their business.  Before I could drive I could take a bus with no worries.  The Landing could have been repurposed and used to rekindle the old days.  Now we have a few tall buildings, a lot of parking lots, and no soul.  The younger generations will never experience what we did, and it's a shame.  Downtown is being torn down and it hurts me.  My parents would be shocked to see what it has become. Shameful.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: jaxlongtimer on December 31, 2019, 07:36:22 PM
Even though you are young you will probably never see anything worth visiting in your lifetime. Believe me, I've been waiting for many, many years for downtown to reach it's potential. I don't think it ever will. Reusing the Landing could have had a similar draw as the Riverside Art Market if done properly, but now we will never know. We do get to have hundreds of studies with the same results. NOTHING! Like I posted a while back I have given up on DT as a place for people not living there to go. Let me add I worked at several places DT when I was young in the sixties and seventies and I have watched it be demolished ever since. The worse part is most people really don't care. When downtown has something to offer there is nothing else like it.

Avon, I have to agree with you here with one exception.  I think people do care but we keep electing "leaders" who don't have the vision, genuine (vs. political expediency) passion or leadership skills to deliver a worthwhile downtown.  When I travel, I find almost every town and city of any size has more going for its "downtown" than Jacksonville.

We would make a great case study in how to perpetually not invigorate an urban core.  It's not complicated and doesn't necessarily take big scoops of public dollars, but it does take some thoughtful, creative and collaborative thinking (not to be confused with worthless and never ending consultancy studies) and the ability to execute.  Even a simple copy and paste would be better than what we have seen.  Decade after decade, we don't get that, hence, we just fall further behind. 

The worst:  Of all Florida cities, Jacksonville started with the best vintage architecture, richest history and the beautiful St. Johns River as a centerpiece, and we have not only not taken advantage, but essentially destroyed and/or detracted from these very assets and continue to do so, all the while wasting public dollars and losing valuable credibility while giving the public a bad taste for downtown efforts making forward movement even more difficult.

It doesn't help that much of the media acts like everything is great.  I love what the Times Union has done in reporting over the last year or two with the exception that, to promote their "J" magazine, they have totally pushed the idea that Downtown is better than ever.  Its a false narrative that I worry is giving politicos a free pass for their dismal track record.

Overall, very frustrating.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on January 01, 2020, 07:08:51 PM
My son came home from college this week and a few days ago a young lady from his school came to visit and brought her parents.  They are from Toronto and wanted to see downtown Jax so he took them.  Needless to say, they were far less than impressed with downtown Jax.  Their entire trip downtown lasted less than 15 minutes.  I think the quote went something like, "Why do you even bother having a downtown?".  Of course, not many places in the US can rival downtown Toronto but Jax would lose a fight with downtown Saskatoon.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on January 01, 2020, 09:12:03 PM
Jax will lose a fight to most mid sized US cities as well. I feel sorry for the Gator Bowl fans wondering around like zombies today. Heard of people at the Hyatt walking up to 7-11 at State and Union for a bite to eat because of the lack of options. I bet they would have appreciated a Fionns or Hooters maintaining consistent hours. With that said, the "why bother" issue deals with the clown show wasting public money to make the place worse. DT would be fine if the 4th floor of city hall left it alone for a few years.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Snaketoz on January 01, 2020, 09:33:17 PM
I think almost everything about Jacksonville has improved in my lifetime.  That is, if you don't count our downtown.  It was much better in the 40s!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: bl8jaxnative on January 17, 2020, 10:52:17 AM

For those that want to catch it before it's all gone, there isn't much left.   Finn McCools space is gone.  They'll have the rest of that building torn down and piled up early next week.    The front ( north ) facade is left.  And a the NE corner building still had a section remaining.  And that's about it.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on January 25, 2020, 11:31:51 AM
Horton Plaza in San Diego looks awful (recent vid below). Atleast a movie theater and a Macy's (the supposed king of retail, according to many in Jax) are open though. The positives with Horton Plaza stop there.

All of the clustering and light rail and nice hotels (things that SD has in place already) will not revive Horton Plaza, lets face it. I keep harping about festival marketplace failures (#NotAll) because I think that Jax was on to something by razing the Landing. I still think that they shouldn't have tore down to Landing without a replacement. These festival marketplaces aren't failing in vibrant cities like San Diego and Phoenix for no reason (damn sure not the lack of trying to rejuvenate them).

A lot of the festival marketplace woes are because many were specifically built with high end retail in mind (like the former Banana Republic at the Landing or the former Nordstrom at Horton Plaza). When the utopian luxury phase dries all up, it's usually either mom and pop fill-ins or empty storefronts next. The Jacksonville Landing will not be the last festival marketplace that is torn down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPyCVFQjYrk
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: vicupstate on January 25, 2020, 01:42:36 PM
Wow. I was there in 1998 or 99 and it was plenty busy then. Maybe online is crushing brick and mortar even more in places like SD.

I watched a video that says the building has been bought and a will keep retail on the ground level and put a Tech campus in the upper levels.  So at least the building is being saved. It sold for $175 million btw.

I think the only retail that would work in a revamped Landing was a  Food Hall / Farmers Market concept. But there were other non_retail options that would have worked too, I believe.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Kerry on January 25, 2020, 02:46:48 PM
Horton Plaza underscores the importance of street-facing retail.  While in Victoria B.C. last year we noticed the street-facing retail had much more foot traffic than the The Bay Center, which is a downtown mall there.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on January 25, 2020, 02:47:19 PM
Phoenix's Arizona Center (similar dead festival marketplace like Horton) also has tech campuses on upper floors. Both of those malls are still very very underutilized (that's an understatement). Imagine what can be done with that prime real estate, if they were the go the Jax 'razing' route? The possibilities would be endless.   
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on January 25, 2020, 10:39:34 PM
Horton wasn't a festival marketplace. It was a traditional mall with anchor department stores. Other than being in a more urban setting, it would be more comparable to Regency Square or Grande Boulevard Mall (now FSJC Deerwood Campus). Seaport Village (still open) would be more comparable to the Landing.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on January 26, 2020, 12:52:29 AM
^^^Right on. For some reason wiki has Horton as a festival marketplace (and I unfortunately was going along with that).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festival_marketplace Of course wiki is known for it's trustworthiness. :D
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: bl8jaxnative on January 26, 2020, 12:39:56 PM
These festival marketplaces aren't failing in vibrant cities like San Diego and Phoenix for no reason


and Baltimore and Norfolk, et al.

------>It wasn't a successful model in it's day. <----------------------

 The places it did work were exceptions, not the norm.

And most all, people change.

You gotta remember the technology we call the indoor shopping mall is very expensive because it's a very inefficient use of space.   You're looking at 40% of the space being public.  So for your typical million square foot mall, they're maintaining 380,000 - 450,000 sq feet of space that's not being directly rented out.  That means they the other 60% of space has to have that much more in rent.  And that means those stores need that much more in sales.   

It can work.  BUt it's not the norm.  Even in their golden age indoor shopping malls were never more than 5-10% of the retail landscape.



 
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: sandyshoes on January 31, 2020, 07:39:48 PM
It just struck me - why not build that proposed Bellagio-type Friendship Fountain at the former Landing site, instead of at Friendship Park?  Put a round sidewalk all around it, like at Memorial Park, with a few benches, maybe an arbor....maybe blend a few items in the style of The Cummer gardens - arbors, etc. - and of course enough green space that people could play frisbee if they want.  Lighting, of course - and PARKING.  What a nice place for people to spill over from intermission at the symphony, etc., with a glass of wine.  A nice walk by the big fountain on the river!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: jaxjaguar on February 01, 2020, 07:54:55 AM
I like the idea. It would also free up a ton of land for MoSH to expand without affecting the oak trees. It would be cool to see the current fountain turned into a splash pad with interactive elements. That location makes a lot more sense for a splash pad than the one that was in the landing, due to its proximity to a children's attraction.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: JeffreyS on February 01, 2020, 09:37:43 AM
I think a waterfront entertainment venue with some shopping, bars and restaurants right in the heart of DT would be the highest and best use of the space.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Ken_FSU on February 01, 2020, 10:54:35 AM
^I actually think there’s a way to do both.

What if we did a small fountain/splash pad near the middle of the property, and then built the restaurants, bars, and shopping around it?

We’d have to get a little creative with the architecture, but I’m thinking something a bit like a horseshoe might work.

Would probably even leave enough space in front of the river to add a stage for live music.

I know our downtown’s still a bit behind in terms of population and parking, but even with what we have today, there’s still likely a market for, I don’t know, maybe 30 restaurants, local retailers, banks, and artists to stay afloat on that property.

VyStar is building a new garage, Hyatt Place is adding a hotel across the street, new residents are moving into the downtown core, feels like the type of opportunity that many cities can only dream of.

Hope we can make the horseshoe idea work. We just need to find a proven local developer with a passion for the city and a strong track record of success, lock him or her in long-term, and set them up for the same kind of success we’re setting the Jags up for by properly maintaining the public infrastructure at the site and being a good partner on parking and security.

With all of the other downtown development investments that we’re making, particularly $270 million at the sports complex between Lot J and the Hart Bridge ramps, I know it’ll take a sizable public commitment to bring such a dream to fruition (Alvin Brown estimates as much as $12 million!), but strategically, I can’t think of a more important investment to help bring true vibrancy back to the urban core.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on February 01, 2020, 12:14:29 PM
^Thanks for the market study! What's our bill this time around?!
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Charles Hunter on February 01, 2020, 12:16:13 PM
Ken, I think you are onto something!
Anybody know how to get the mayor's attention for this?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Ken_FSU on February 01, 2020, 02:10:45 PM
^Thanks for the market study! What's our bill this time around?!

$100,000 for the market study, plus another $150,000 to Wakefield Beasley for mocking up some conceptual ideas.

I actually really like the direction they're heading in with the design.

I think it's got a lot of potential for the space:

(https://i.pinimg.com/564x/6f/60/be/6f60bec012dee6906b77edf0ab00ae36.jpg)
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: itsfantastic1 on February 01, 2020, 04:27:00 PM
Ken, I think you are onto something!
Anybody know how to get the mayor's attention for this?

Offer to lead a sale of JEA?
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Tacachale on February 01, 2020, 04:31:09 PM
^I actually think there’s a way to do both.

What if we did a small fountain/splash pad near the middle of the property, and then built the restaurants, bars, and shopping around it?

We’d have to get a little creative with the architecture, but I’m thinking something a bit like a horseshoe might work.

Would probably even leave enough space in front of the river to add a stage for live music.

I know our downtown’s still a bit behind in terms of population and parking, but even with what we have today, there’s still likely a market for, I don’t know, maybe 30 restaurants, local retailers, banks, and artists to stay afloat on that property.

VyStar is building a new garage, Hyatt Place is adding a hotel across the street, new residents are moving into the downtown core, feels like the type of opportunity that many cities can only dream of.

Hope we can make the horseshoe idea work. We just need to find a proven local developer with a passion for the city and a strong track record of success, lock him or her in long-term, and set them up for the same kind of success we’re setting the Jags up for by properly maintaining the public infrastructure at the site and being a good partner on parking and security.

With all of the other downtown development investments that we’re making, particularly $270 million at the sports complex between Lot J and the Hart Bridge ramps, I know it’ll take a sizable public commitment to bring such a dream to fruition (Alvin Brown estimates as much as $12 million!), but strategically, I can’t think of a more important investment to help bring true vibrancy back to the urban core.

This is brilliant. Front page of the Jaxson worthy, even.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on February 03, 2020, 12:09:04 PM
The Landing looks like it's gonna be fully razed today. There is only a very small area of the facade and columns left on Independent Drive.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Ken_FSU on February 03, 2020, 12:21:34 PM
^I actually think there’s a way to do both.

What if we did a small fountain/splash pad near the middle of the property, and then built the restaurants, bars, and shopping around it?

We’d have to get a little creative with the architecture, but I’m thinking something a bit like a horseshoe might work.

Would probably even leave enough space in front of the river to add a stage for live music.

I know our downtown’s still a bit behind in terms of population and parking, but even with what we have today, there’s still likely a market for, I don’t know, maybe 30 restaurants, local retailers, banks, and artists to stay afloat on that property.

VyStar is building a new garage, Hyatt Place is adding a hotel across the street, new residents are moving into the downtown core, feels like the type of opportunity that many cities can only dream of.

Hope we can make the horseshoe idea work. We just need to find a proven local developer with a passion for the city and a strong track record of success, lock him or her in long-term, and set them up for the same kind of success we’re setting the Jags up for by properly maintaining the public infrastructure at the site and being a good partner on parking and security.

With all of the other downtown development investments that we’re making, particularly $270 million at the sports complex between Lot J and the Hart Bridge ramps, I know it’ll take a sizable public commitment to bring such a dream to fruition (Alvin Brown estimates as much as $12 million!), but strategically, I can’t think of a more important investment to help bring true vibrancy back to the urban core.

This is brilliant. Front page of the Jaxson worthy, even.

It's just astounding to read all of these articles in the local media and hear all the man-on-the-street reports asking citizens what they'd like to see in the spot of the former Jacksonville Landing.

To a person, nearly every single respondent pretty much just describes what was already there (restaurants, retail, public space).

Mind-blowing to walk down Laura Street every day and see that insane, needless wreckage when all the Landing needed was some TLC and a plan.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: JaGoaT on February 05, 2020, 12:22:40 AM
Drove through downtown tonight past the Landing site and loved the view of the Main Street Bridge. I think I’ve been converted into liking the removal of the landing. I’m shocked at myself
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: acme54321 on February 05, 2020, 06:44:14 AM
Yeah, not gonna lie, if the city could build out AND MAINTAIN a top quality greenspace there I don't think I'd have much issue with it.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on February 05, 2020, 07:14:46 AM
I drove through last night after spending a weeknight in DT Orlando and had the complete opposite reaction. A place with activity, life, people and energy vs an empty post apocalyptic scene. I don't think Jax really knows what it wants with downtown or how to get there in a timely and cost effective manner. As a result, we're 50 years in on talking visions and dreams but coming short in getting them off paper.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Todd_Parker on February 05, 2020, 09:26:42 AM
I drove through last night after spending a weeknight in DT Orlando and had the complete opposite reaction. A place with activity, life, people and energy vs an empty post apocalyptic scene. I don't think Jax really knows what it wants with downtown or how to get there in a timely and cost effective manner. As a result, we're 50 years in on talking visions and dreams but coming short in getting them off paper.

And to think that we are currently in "the greatest economy in the history of all economies". What will happen to DT Jax when the next recession inevitably comes.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on February 05, 2020, 09:54:32 AM
^That is the worst part. Some type of way, we've largely squandered opportunities during an epic point in history for economic prosperity. I'm really hoping most of these Northbank proposals get underway this year. Despite the pretty renderings, continued media puff pieces and Curry's promises of changing the skyline (unfortunately he is doing this by demolishing things, but that's not a positive), I'm really not confident that any of the mega development proposals will materialize as depicted.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: Tacachale on February 05, 2020, 11:32:06 AM
It is a good view without those pesky people and businesses being in the way. On a related note, I bet we’d have a dope ass view of the Dames Point Bridge from the Timucuan Preserve if we could do something about all those damn trees.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: FlaBoy on February 05, 2020, 11:43:52 AM
^That is the worst part. Some type of way, we've largely squandered opportunities during an epic point in history for economic prosperity. I'm really hoping most of these Northbank proposals get underway this year. Despite the pretty renderings, continued media puff pieces and Curry's promises of changing the skyline (unfortunately he is doing this by demolishing things, but that's not a positive), I'm really not confident that any of the mega development proposals will materialize as depicted.

It's critical to get going before the summer IMO on most of these plans. I think there will potentially be a wait and see approach depending on the Democrat nominee later this year. There is a lot of angst among developers, investors and Wall Street types if the Democratic nominee is not Biden, Bloomberg, or even Mayor Pete.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on February 05, 2020, 05:36:16 PM
Drove through downtown tonight past the Landing site and loved the view of the Main Street Bridge. I think I’ve been converted into liking the removal of the landing. I’m shocked at myself

The Northbank view of the MSB might be there, but the Southbank view of the main skyline leaves alot to be desired with the Landing gone. 25 percent of me agree with you, only because I question the viability of even a renovated Landing (while most people think that sunshine and roses would have been in the bag with a renovated Landing).

Jax MIGHT have did the correct thing by demoing the Landing, and people just don't know it. Even a 25 million dollar renovation wasn't enough to provide rejuvenation to Phoenix's Arizona Center.

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2017/03/14/arizona-center-begins-25m-renovation-adding-hotel.html

Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on February 05, 2020, 06:05:42 PM
I'd argue that the Landing at its worst with COJ as a slumlord is better than the current state. Even then, you had 30 businesses employing hundreds and consistent programming stimulating foot traffic. Now that section of downtown is a ghost town and will be for quite a while. If a recession takes place within the next two or three years, it could be a dead spot for another decade. That's a likely worst case scenario for Jax, considering we've already wasted 15 years to get to this point.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: I-10east on February 06, 2020, 08:36:35 PM
^^^I feel ya. Hypothetically I would've kept the Landing like it was (mainly mom and pop local stores and restaurants); I chose that over razing it or putting a bunch of money into it.
Title: Re: Last chance to see: the Landing is quietly coming down
Post by: thelakelander on February 06, 2020, 08:47:53 PM
Unfortunately, to do anything with the space, we're going to have to sink millions more into it now. But it is, what it is at this point. With Lot J and the Jags being Curry's priority and the JEA thing blowing up, it will be interesting to see where any money comes from to address the site's future and how long it will take to materialize into something more than promises, RFPs, studies and slick renderings.