The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Urban Neighborhoods => San Marco => Topic started by: sanmarcomatt on November 13, 2019, 08:03:01 AM

Title: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 13, 2019, 08:03:01 AM
And here comes the handwringing.

https://www.rightsizesanmarco.com/

Traffic! More people..no...more poorer people! Noooooooooooo!

My favorite was the concern that the church apartments will “tower” over the new million dollar McMansions that were just built on Alexandria Place. Think of the property values!  :'(

I may join this group as I have a cool idea about how we can all wear armbands with an “S” on them to show our SanMarco solidarity.






Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Kerry on November 13, 2019, 08:20:12 AM
Something they must learned from Murray Hill residents.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 13, 2019, 09:24:51 AM
Well.... I just tried to click the link and it immediately set off security threat alerts on my computer....

Sounds about right.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 13, 2019, 09:40:25 AM
 
Well.... I just tried to click the link and it immediately set off security threat alerts on my computer....

Sounds about right.

Oops. Sorry.
I made the mistake of signing up for next door ( watch out for that non-White...err...sketchy character!)awhile ago and it was an email notification from that site that led me to the density rebellion. In a shocking twist, the leader of the rebellion  owns one of the Million dollar properties that the apartments will tower over and evidently torpedo the property value. But the real concern is protecting the character of the neighborhood.    ;D
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 13, 2019, 10:09:40 AM
I'd probably be annoyed if someone was proposing to build a 4 story parking deck behind my house too.  Sucks to be them.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Papa33 on November 13, 2019, 10:20:33 AM
I'd be more concerned about the Publix (but that ship has sailed).
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 13, 2019, 01:26:33 PM
I'd probably be annoyed if someone was proposing to build a 4 story parking deck behind my house too.  Sucks to be them.

I am sure I would be too.

Oh wait. If I was going to spend a mil building a shrine to my wealth, I would have taken a walk down the street behind the property, considered trends, maybe even pondered what may happen, before purchasing. As  Gordon Gekko said, “ a fool and his money is lucky enough to get together in the first place”.

But considering the area track record, I will believe this project when I see it so I think their precious property values will survive.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 13, 2019, 01:32:21 PM
Why exactly would their property values decline? I get the impression they'll go up as the blocks facing Hendricks and Atlantic fill in with mixed-use development. As for the garage, how it impacts them will be dependent on the design but it doesn't have to be any more negative than the blighted surface parking lot there today. Am I missing something?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Tacachale on November 13, 2019, 01:36:28 PM
Why exactly would their property values decline? I get the impression they'll go up as the blocks facing Hendricks and Atlantic fill in with mixed-use development. As for the garage, how it impacts them will be dependent on the design but it doesn't have to be any more negative than the blighted surface parking lot there today. Am I missing something?

I can understand the complaint, but obviously this isn't going to stay church property, and housing seems like a much less intense and traffic-heavy use than even a one-story commercial strip.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: jcjohnpaint on November 13, 2019, 02:43:15 PM
Do your homework before buying a house.  A growing city and a hot neighborhood and this is going to happen. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: vicupstate on November 13, 2019, 03:17:40 PM
In fairness, is the developer seeking a zoning change?  It is one thing if the project is already allowed as designed. It is another if they are seeing to change the law about what is allowed.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Adam White on November 13, 2019, 03:35:25 PM
I think most of the excuses being offered are just a smokescreen to deflect from the fact that the snobs don't want their property values to be negatively impacted when the proles arrive.

I lived on St Johns Avenue when they built that ugly pink apartment building (I think it is now called the Bell apartments or something). It is over 200 units and hasn't really made traffic unbearable in the area. Nor did the Publix shopping center, come to think of it.

Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: JPalmer on November 13, 2019, 04:32:46 PM
In the San Marco Resident I do recall a person complaining and basically telling everyone they lived in one of the newly constructed homes on Alexandria and opposed the apartments. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: 77danj7 on November 13, 2019, 04:46:43 PM
In fairness, is the developer seeking a zoning change?  It is one thing if the project is already allowed as designed. It is another if they are seeing to change the law about what is allowed.

From what I can remember, they are trying to go from current zoning of 20 units per acre on a 3 acre lot to 60.  With that increase they are looking to build 143 units on the 2.4 acres as opposed to the ~48 units under current zoning.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 13, 2019, 06:05:13 PM
Why exactly would their property values decline? I get the impression they'll go up as the blocks facing Hendricks and Atlantic fill in with mixed-use development. As for the garage, how it impacts them will be dependent on the design but it doesn't have to be any more negative than the blighted surface parking lot there today. Am I missing something?

For most property I would say you are correct and it would go up. What you may be “Missing” is this particular property, it’s elevated cost, and the current/future market for it. Personally I would never care about the future value of my primary residence as I think it is rather stupid, But if I was this owner (and did care)I would 100% agree with him to think his will go lower.

As the resident San Marco snob who monitors the upper end of the SM market for possible future housing decisions I can offer a detailed opinion if necessary but probably not needed.

I think the other typical nimby concerns will be echoed by others and the “think of the property values” rally cry probably won’t be.


Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 13, 2019, 07:36:42 PM
Is it a matter of the fear of property values actually going down - less than they are today; or, of not appreciating as much as antcipated?

Just an observation: density and destiny have the same letters.  (Yes, I know. I weird.)
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 14, 2019, 09:19:22 AM
Is it a matter of the fear of property values actually going down - less than they are today; or, of not appreciating as much as antcipated?

Just an observation: density and destiny have the same letters.  (Yes, I know. I weird.)

Nice work with the density/destiny observation. Hopefully San Marco’s destiny is density.

As for property value obsession, considering the state of American debt slaves, I would say the fear is just less appreciation than anticipated. Actual depreciation being Armageddon as people like me swoop in, take the keys at closing, thank them for the pool and California Closets, and wave to them as they drive off in their leased Land Rover.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 14, 2019, 09:39:15 AM
The sky's falling on Facebook too  ;D

https://www.facebook.com/rightsizesanmarco/
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 14, 2019, 09:55:12 AM
The sky's falling on Facebook too  ;D

https://www.facebook.com/rightsizesanmarco/

Love the “million plus housing” label on the map. Must differentiate from the “single family housing” next to it. Ba ha ha ha ha. Need validation?
Hopefully, I can attend the meeting next week. Popcorn a must.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 14, 2019, 10:21:18 AM
This guy seems to be really for the San Marco Publix but really against the apartments.  On the whole, the Publix will create far more traffic in the neighborhood.  He doesn't care because it doesn't abut his house.  I've heard he has been pretty hostile with SMPS.  I'm really sad I'll miss next week's town hall because i love watching people lose their sh*t.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Adam White on November 14, 2019, 10:32:25 AM
The sky's falling on Facebook too  ;D

https://www.facebook.com/rightsizesanmarco/

Love the “million plus housing” label on the map. Must differentiate from the “single family housing” next to it. Ba ha ha ha ha. Need validation?
Hopefully, I can attend the meeting next week. Popcorn a must.

I raised that in my comments on the page (which seem to have disappeared). They say it's not a "class issue" but if that's the case, why does the fact that some of the homes cost a lot more money make any difference?

https://www.facebook.com/rightsizesanmarco/posts/103552231112725 (https://www.facebook.com/rightsizesanmarco/posts/103552231112725)
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Tacachale on November 14, 2019, 11:08:16 AM
In fairness, is the developer seeking a zoning change?  It is one thing if the project is already allowed as designed. It is another if they are seeing to change the law about what is allowed.

I think it's currently zoned religious. But it's clearly not going to stay all church property, so that would have to be changed or the property will sit empty and possibly drain the church's finances. Hopefully no one wants that. Of the options, residential seems like the least intrusive of the possible uses.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 14, 2019, 11:53:51 AM
In fairness, is the developer seeking a zoning change?  It is one thing if the project is already allowed as designed. It is another if they are seeing to change the law about what is allowed.

I think it's currently zoned religious. But it's clearly not going to stay all church property, so that would have to be changed or the property will sit empty and possibly drain the church's finances. Hopefully no one wants that. Of the options, residential seems like the least intrusive of the possible uses.

Looking at the Property map on JaxGIS, the Land Use and Zoning categories are split, with the line approximately opposite San Marco Blvd.
North of the line the Land Use is CGC and the Zoning CGC-1
South of the line: LU - RPI and Zoning CRO
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 14, 2019, 11:56:40 AM
This isn't section 8 housing.  These are going to be very high end.  I doubt I'd be willing to pay what these are going to want for a 2 bed.  The whole "million plus" component is ridiculous and makes this easier to throw away as NIMBY garbage than if they focused strictly on intensification of use and scale.  This is why Jax can't have nice things.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 14, 2019, 12:10:06 PM
The sky's falling on Facebook too  ;D

https://www.facebook.com/rightsizesanmarco/

Love the “million plus housing” label on the map. Must differentiate from the “single family housing” next to it. Ba ha ha ha ha. Need validation?
Hopefully, I can attend the meeting next week. Popcorn a must.

I didn't even notice that, what a bunch of tools.  Looks like one of the posters on that facebook page (wouldn't be suprised if they run the page) lives in the middle of the three Mediterranean McMansions.  Hopefully they get to stare at a concrete wall sooner than later.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 17, 2019, 12:22:48 PM
F-me. Now I have to look at a bunch of Right Size San Marco yard signs. Clowns probably inherited their wealth. I hope the developers have influential contacts.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 17, 2019, 12:28:11 PM
Lol, what do the apartments being built on Philips have to do with this site?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 17, 2019, 12:37:13 PM
Lol, what do the apartments being built on Philips have to do with this site?

Because of those, more apartments aren’t needed.
Translation: We have no problem with lowly renters living on Phillips.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 17, 2019, 12:47:31 PM
The sky's falling on Facebook too  ;D

https://www.facebook.com/rightsizesanmarco/

Love the “million plus housing” label on the map. Must differentiate from the “single family housing” next to it. Ba ha ha ha ha. Need validation?
Hopefully, I can attend the meeting next week. Popcorn a must.

I didn't even notice that, what a bunch of tools.  Looks like one of the posters on that facebook page (wouldn't be suprised if they run the page) lives in the middle of the three Mediterranean McMansions.  Hopefully they get to stare at a concrete wall sooner than later.

The ring leader is different and recently bought the one directly on Phillips.  A “million plus” for a McMansion not only East of Hendricks but on Hendricks. Apparently he has not paid attention to the San Marco real estate market and things that impact it.When it comes to his “property value”,  this new development going up behind him is a bit far down the list in reasons why he likely flushed some cash down the toilet.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 17, 2019, 05:57:48 PM
No shit.  They should have gotten the hint when the other one sat on the market for 3 years.  They have done a great job plastering their lawns with signs though
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Kerry on November 18, 2019, 08:04:12 AM
Name one piece of property in America that has gone down in price as a result of increasing density.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 18, 2019, 08:41:35 AM
F-me. Now I have to look at a bunch of Right Size San Marco yard signs. Clowns probably inherited their wealth. I hope the developers have influential contacts.


Have some signs made up that say:

DENSITY
    =
DESTINY

or, the other way around
DESTINY
   =
DENSITY
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: bl8jaxnative on November 19, 2019, 11:57:11 AM
Name one piece of property in America that has gone down in price as a result of increasing density.


Cabrini Greens
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 19, 2019, 11:59:01 AM
This meeting is tonight at the scene of the proposed crime against San Marco that will ruin our lives.

I am hoping to attend but it is dicey.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 19, 2019, 12:27:52 PM
Question. Was this type of opposition present when the plan for East San Marco was 280 apartments in a 6-7 story structure? The current situation (ESM plus this project) appears to be significantly less density. Is there an appropriate scale or density level that this group would be fine with?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 19, 2019, 01:09:46 PM
Question. Was this type of opposition present when the plan for East San Marco was 280 apartments in a 6-7 story structure? The current situation (ESM plus this project) appears to be significantly less density. Is there an appropriate scale or density level that this group would be fine with?

Keep in mind this outcry has been mostly driven by Mr Built a Million Dollar home that this development will be directly behind so it is difficult to tell. Despite the massive concern from this individual about saving the character of San Marco, I expect there would have been crickets from this individual, no web site, and no yard signs, if it wasn’t directly behind his house.

Tonight’s meeting should be very interesting to see what kind of response is there from people in general.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Adam White on November 19, 2019, 02:36:11 PM
Name one piece of property in America that has gone down in price as a result of increasing density.


Cabrini Greens

The property value of Cabrini Greens went down because of increasing density? Odd.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Peter Griffin on November 19, 2019, 03:01:12 PM
I think the joke is that the value of properties surrounding Cabrini-Greens went down as a result of their implementation. Their implementation also increased the residential density of the area. Hence an increase in density correlated with a decrease in property value.

This is likely meant as a joke, which I have now clearly explained and thus beaten to death and stolen all of the comedy out of.

On a serious note, the olden days of public housing were very poorly implemented and goe in the history books as dark eras, not applicable to the current discussion, thus furthering my suspicion that the comment of "Cabrini-Greens" was a joke.

I've really cracked the code of comedy now.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 19, 2019, 03:15:11 PM
I will be attending tonight and am hoping for a good show. I will be drinking beforehand. I expect that may not end up being the best decision but it is what it is.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Peter Griffin on November 19, 2019, 03:44:07 PM
I will be attending tonight and am hoping for a good show. I will be drinking beforehand. I expect that may not end up being the best decision but it is what it is.

ooh! have your phone camera ready for any juicy moments, will you?

i like the idea of a drunken and localized version of CSPAN
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: ProjectMaximus on November 19, 2019, 04:10:00 PM
I will be attending tonight and am hoping for a good show. I will be drinking beforehand. I expect that may not end up being the best decision but it is what it is.

I have never been more disappointed that we moved away than at this moment right now.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 19, 2019, 08:30:21 PM
Wow. Where do I begin? First, I had to get out of there just in case the Question section continued with anymore insane rants as one woman...but I will get to that.

The meeting was packed...standing room only and a little too full for me...as I just don’t like people that much. It got off to a rough start as the first presenters from the development teams bowed down to the audience raving about San Marco...I live here..my family does...my great grandfather...we care so much about the community... blah blah blah..it’s just great. Just great! For a second there I thought I was going to have to do a secret handshake to prove I belonged or I was going to be escorted out.

I think the development looks good..but it is just a small apartment complex. I mean..to me this was a little ridiculous.Once again bowed down to the audience by showing various homes and raving about them. Most were hideous. But they were “inspired by them”...I may have laughed too loudly. There will now be apartments in front of the garage to help appease RightSizeSanMarco.

Then Doug Skiles came on and saved it for me since he is great. He pretty much blew away most of the issues and my favorite was simulating the view from Whatley park. I mean, the view from Whatley park is pretty much right up there with the Syrian refugee crisis from the locals who never use it except to walk a dog. I frequently see them looking up toward the Church admiring the view. Yeah, right. Essentially, it won’t change much.

Throughout the presentation you could almost sense the quiet tension that Doug tried to ease with some humor. Another highlight was Doug talking about what could be going there with no zoning change...much more intense. I found it hilarious. Also emphasized the public parking which is nice. Another hilarious concern was I guess people were concerned About access to the upper floor of the garages and who may be “hanging out”. The Huns? Yes, it will be secure only for residents. I am not making this up.

Now the questions. I actually got in line even though I had no question but figured I could come up with something and  felt I may need to break up the venom. To my surprise, the first old guy  had questions which were just asked it seemed to point out positives. I loved him. Probably a plant...maybe the developer’s father, but I don’t care.
Then came a self professed millennial ( of course...always has to announce they are one) and went on an on for what seemed like 4 hours I think about traffic ( I zoned out)and was dumb as a rock. Doug has the patience of jobe.
The highlight was the next woman who just ranted about all the apartments being built...hands on hips...cried about how  awful she felt for the poor million dollar home owners. Stormed off with a mad face!

When I left someone was talking about how the developers need to be honest! I think it was about traffic...not sure but I couldn’t take it anymore.

I expect some tweaks but am not worried about this being approved.




Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Charles Hunter on November 19, 2019, 08:50:52 PM
Thanks for the update.

I am disappointed though - no pitchforks?  What kind of Grill the Developer meeting was this?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 20, 2019, 09:25:04 AM
Thanks for the update.

I am disappointed though - no pitchforks?  What kind of Grill the Developer meeting was this?

From the vibe I got from the room and the applause meter throughout, I think there were a lot of mental pitchforks. I am hoping those that have a reasonably open mind had a more positive opinion of the project when they left.

There are just some( too many) that just don’t want any density projects at all. Which is fine. I am certainly not going to say they are wrong to feel that way. However, I do think they are a touch naive about change that is coming. A reality check is on its way.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: bl8jaxnative on November 20, 2019, 09:47:22 AM

I'm not sure I'm following things here.  Is this about a public meeting that involved rezoning?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 20, 2019, 11:00:11 AM

I'm not sure I'm following things here.  Is this about a public meeting that involved rezoning?

There was a townhall meeting about the new apartment project. We are a little fragile in San Marco.

It is being rezoned but what could go there under current zoning if sold to another developer could be much worse. For those that oppose ...possible case of careful what you wish for....
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: ProjectMaximus on November 20, 2019, 11:04:25 AM
The meeting was packed...standing room only and a little too full for me...as I just don’t like people that much.

Sounds like a bit too much density for your liking.

Throughout the presentation you could almost sense the quiet tension that Doug tried to ease with some humor. Another highlight was Doug talking about what could be going there with no zoning change...much more intense.

What were some of the alternatives?

Then came a self professed millennial ( of course...always has to announce they are one) and went on an on for what seemed like 4 hours I think about traffic ( I zoned out)and was dumb as a rock. Doug has the patience of jobe.

*pondering how to proclaim that I'm a millennial who has never proclaimed myself a millennial, without now proclaiming that I am one* I guess you got me there. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 20, 2019, 12:34:59 PM

Throughout the presentation you could almost sense the quiet tension that Doug tried to ease with some humor. Another highlight was Doug talking about what could be going there with no zoning change...much more intense.

What were some of the alternatives?



It was purely hypothetical but Doug thought a medical office may be an attractive option for a different buyer considering what has been happening in the vicinity.

Much of the concern seemed to be about all of the traffic a whopping 200 new residents ( who can walk to many of their needs especially if the Publix is built) was going to bring. He was doing his best to get people to do some critical thinking.

It doesn’t help that even though many of them can walk to things...they drive EVERYWHERE. Trust me... my wife and I aren’t exactly passing a bunch of folks heading out or returning unless it is joggers/dog walkers. I am not sure if they can get beyond their own auto centric view. Any additional traffic is a nightmare of biblical proportions. Of course, the traffic they add is perfectly fine. I am speaking of the area south of the Square. It seems to me that there is willingness to walk in North San Marco more...but I don’t have as much exposure so can’t say for sure.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 20, 2019, 01:13:37 PM
Seems like less traffic than the previous approved East San Marco plan. Did Doug compare the two?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: realestatejax on November 20, 2019, 01:36:42 PM
Seems like less traffic than the previous approved East San Marco plan. Did Doug compare the two?

East San Marco was originally approved for 280 residential units and the Publix.  They are now doing 35 units.  This development will have 135-140 units.  Between the two projects there will be over 100 fewer residential units than what was proposed and approved in the East San Marco development. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: MusicMan on November 20, 2019, 07:11:33 PM
Thank you for the informative commentary SMM.  I appreciate your taking the time to be there and report back. 

I mean, change is a constant, right?  Pretty much everything from the SouthBank (Peninsula)  to St Augustine and Philips (old Ferguson Plumbing) is in for a massive change with all the new apartments and new businesses going in.  What the end result will be is truly anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: ProjectMaximus on November 21, 2019, 10:19:19 AM
It seems to me that there is willingness to walk in North San Marco more...but I don’t have as much exposure so can’t say for sure.

Yeah we resided in the dregs aka north san marco, and there was plenty more pedestrian activity up there. I even routinely walked to the library, hightide, v pizza, bistro aix etc. Maybe it's cause us folks in those parts couldn't afford cars.

Seems like less traffic than the previous approved East San Marco plan. Did Doug compare the two?

East San Marco was originally approved for 280 residential units and the Publix.  They are now doing 35 units.  This development will have 135-140 units.  Between the two projects there will be over 100 fewer residential units than what was proposed and approved in the East San Marco development.

Mic drop
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 21, 2019, 10:29:59 AM
Quote
The complex will have 82% one-bedroom apartments and 18% two-bedroom apartments. Ware said ideally, its residents would be made up of young professionals and empty-nesters. Average rent would be $1,700.

Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/community-developers-discuss-concerns-about-the-proposed-park-place-at-san-marco-apartments
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: jaxjags on November 21, 2019, 11:05:15 AM
I see this article and comments on this board and I am again reminded of why Jax has a hard time advancing with density. Sure everyone needs to speak and the developer needs to listen, but not all development needs to be blocked. Look at Peachtree Street in ATL. Multi million dollar 100 year old homes mixed in with mid rise, high rise, shopping and restaurants. I know the value of those properties have not been negatively impacted. In fact demand is high as people want to live near these services. As MM has said, bring those apartments to Springfield. They would love to have them and the density it brings.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 21, 2019, 11:09:13 AM
“ 200 more right size San Marco signs ordered due to large demand”.

Luckily, yard signs enhance the character of the neighborhood.

F-me. This vote can’t come soon enough and getting a little worried.

Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 21, 2019, 11:18:14 AM
I see this article and comments on this board and I am again reminded of why Jax has a hard time advancing with density. Sure everyone needs to speak and the developer needs to listen, but not all development needs to be blocked. Look at Peachtree Street in ATL. Multi million dollar 100 year old homes mixed in with mid rise, high rise, shopping and restaurants. I know the value of those properties have not been negatively impacted. In fact demand is high as people want to live near these services. As MM has said, bring those apartments to Springfield. They would love to have them and the density it brings.

The sad part is this project doesn’t even amount to much density. It’s not like a Soviet era apartment block is being built over the precious “Duck pond”.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 21, 2019, 11:26:23 AM
I see this article and comments on this board and I am again reminded of why Jax has a hard time advancing with density. Sure everyone needs to speak and the developer needs to listen, but not all development needs to be blocked. Look at Peachtree Street in ATL. Multi million dollar 100 year old homes mixed in with mid rise, high rise, shopping and restaurants. I know the value of those properties have not been negatively impacted. In fact demand is high as people want to live near these services. As MM has said, bring those apartments to Springfield. They would love to have them and the density it brings.

One way to get around NIBYism is to direct high density growth to underutilized areas where people don't live. In Jax, that's the downtown core, older industrial districts like the Rail Yard District and areas of significant urban renewal like State/Union, Sugar Hill, LaVilla, the Southbank, etc. However, it means significantly investing in these areas and aligning policies to support the vision and marketplace. An example of this is the South End in Charlotte. There are 1,000s of new housing units paralleling a block or two around the LRT route, yet Dilworth still retains its historic character and scale.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 21, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
It seems to me that there is willingness to walk in North San Marco more...but I don’t have as much exposure so can’t say for sure.

Yeah we resided in the dregs aka north san marco, and there was plenty more pedestrian activity up there. I even routinely walked to the library, hightide, v pizza, bistro aix etc. Maybe it's cause us folks in those parts couldn't afford cars

Wait. Bistro Aix accepts EBT cards?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 21, 2019, 12:25:47 PM
Those apartments on the south side of the development actually look like a pretty good compromise to buffer the houses on that side from the parking deck.  Obviously that only benefits the "Million+" crowd and not the sorry people along Mango who's spartan little shacks will actually front this thing ::)
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Steve on November 21, 2019, 12:44:15 PM
I see this article and comments on this board and I am again reminded of why Jax has a hard time advancing with density. Sure everyone needs to speak and the developer needs to listen, but not all development needs to be blocked. Look at Peachtree Street in ATL. Multi million dollar 100 year old homes mixed in with mid rise, high rise, shopping and restaurants. I know the value of those properties have not been negatively impacted. In fact demand is high as people want to live near these services. As MM has said, bring those apartments to Springfield. They would love to have them and the density it brings.

The sad part is this project doesn’t even amount to much density. It’s not like a Soviet era apartment block is being built over the precious “Duck pond”.

Well put...in more ways than one.

In regards to property values, correct - I've never seen property values drop as a result of density. That doesn't mean that someone's chosen quality of life is the same and that should be considered. Peachtree Street in Atlanta is an excellent example (especially the side streets). You have 30 story condos next to single family houses. It's a little weird to say the least. For this site, had they been proposing Vista Brooklyn I'd be in "stop the growth" camp on this one.

But....they aren't. The site plan isn't my favorite, but better than some of the crap thrown up by developers - admittedly that's a low bar. Bottom line is we're talking about about ~180 units with this and East San Marco COMBINED. See if you can tweak the site plan a little then let it ride.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 21, 2019, 01:18:19 PM
Yeah. I get the impression most in Jax don't know what real density is but still remain confused when the retailers and grocery chains they desire won't locate to certain areas. These things go hand in hand.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Tacachale on November 21, 2019, 02:29:05 PM
It seems to me that there is willingness to walk in North San Marco more...but I don’t have as much exposure so can’t say for sure.

Yeah we resided in the dregs aka north san marco, and there was plenty more pedestrian activity up there. I even routinely walked to the library, hightide, v pizza, bistro aix etc. Maybe it's cause us folks in those parts couldn't afford cars.

Seems like less traffic than the previous approved East San Marco plan. Did Doug compare the two?

East San Marco was originally approved for 280 residential units and the Publix.  They are now doing 35 units.  This development will have 135-140 units.  Between the two projects there will be over 100 fewer residential units than what was proposed and approved in the East San Marco development.

Mic drop

I live in north San Marco now and my wife and I walk pretty much everywhere when we're out. There definitely are more folks walking here than other parts of the neighborhood. That said, our neighbor seems to make a point of driving his truck everywhere even when he's just going to Aardwolf or the Square which are each less than 5 blocks from us.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 21, 2019, 03:53:26 PM
Probably about 95% of what I post is intended to only be taken half seriously but if I may take a moment to be a thoughtful, genuine, adult.

I honestly believe that the Park Place development is a small step in the right direction for San Marco. If you agree, please email LeAnna Cumber, LCumber@coj.net.

And if you don’t agree, go screw yourself. (Ahhhh... good to be back).
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: jcjohnpaint on November 21, 2019, 07:25:04 PM
This just brings to mind the people who move near SJTC or SJCounty and complaining about all these new people moving in and ruining our area and causing traffic. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: MusicMan on November 23, 2019, 03:35:55 PM
I talked to my friend who lives on Arbor Lane, very close to the proposed development. He said one of the concerns is the height of the garage. It's gonna be pretty damn big, as tall as the church chapel he said. Also, he mentioned that this development could be in 2 stages, and eventually the chapel may come down in favor of even more units. I don't really have a dog in the fight, but both of these issues are legitimate concerns for folks who live within 2-3 blocks of the proposed sight.

Did they discuss a second stage of development at the meeting...?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on November 23, 2019, 03:56:20 PM
I haven't heard anything about the chapel coming down or the development being in two phases. Is this something mentioned by the developer and church or rumor? Also, how does the height compare to the previously approved height of the East San Marco? Shorter, higher or the same?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: MusicMan on November 23, 2019, 06:49:57 PM
I do not know, this was the principal concern as stated by my friend who lives there AND went to the meeting. However, if you go over to the site or better yet, stand across the street and imagine a garage behind the chapel but equal to it in height, I get the concern. PLUS this site is adjacent to some pretty luxurious homes. The East San Marco site does not abut any homes that I can see. It was/is more of a stand alone project. This one is snuggled up next to the neighborhood.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Adam White on November 24, 2019, 03:24:34 PM
I do not know, this was the principal concern as stated by my friend who lives there AND went to the meeting. However, if you go over to the site or better yet, stand across the street and imagine a garage behind the chapel but equal to it in height, I get the concern. PLUS this site is adjacent to some pretty luxurious homes. The East San Marco site does not abut any homes that I can see. It was/is more of a stand alone project. This one is snuggled up next to the neighborhood.

Why does it make any difference how "luxurious" the homes are? Or is it just that rich people deseve special treatment?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 24, 2019, 05:19:10 PM
I do not know, this was the principal concern as stated by my friend who lives there AND went to the meeting. However, if you go over to the site or better yet, stand across the street and imagine a garage behind the chapel but equal to it in height, I get the concern. PLUS this site is adjacent to some pretty luxurious homes. The East San Marco site does not abut any homes that I can see. It was/is more of a stand alone project. This one is snuggled up next to the neighborhood.

Why does it make any difference how "luxurious" the homes are? Or is it just that rich people deseve special treatment?

It's funny that this keep bringing this up, of course we all know the answer.  I keep hearing about these poor rich folks whose houses back up to this. 

Not one mention of the bungalows on Mango that will look directly at a 4 story garage 75' from their front door. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Adam White on November 24, 2019, 05:47:21 PM
I do not know, this was the principal concern as stated by my friend who lives there AND went to the meeting. However, if you go over to the site or better yet, stand across the street and imagine a garage behind the chapel but equal to it in height, I get the concern. PLUS this site is adjacent to some pretty luxurious homes. The East San Marco site does not abut any homes that I can see. It was/is more of a stand alone project. This one is snuggled up next to the neighborhood.

Why does it make any difference how "luxurious" the homes are? Or is it just that rich people deseve special treatment?

It's funny that this keep bringing this up, of course we all know the answer.  I keep hearing about these poor rich folks whose houses back up to this. 

Not one mention of the bungalows on Mango that will look directly at a 4 story garage 75' from their front door.

Exactly. I appreciate why anyone might object to having this built for that reason. But the way the plight of the "$1 Million Plus" homeowners is being treated as somehow strenghtening the argument against construction is insulting.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: MusicMan on November 24, 2019, 06:20:44 PM
"Not one mention of the bungalows on Mango that will look directly at a 4 story garage 75' from their front door. "

I doubt they like it either, but I'm pretty certain that strip is mostly commercial, so that is a significant difference.  And yeah, this is America where who ever has the Gold makes the rules.... Did either of you go to the meeting? I was just telling you what my friend, WHO LIVES VERY CLOSE TO THE SITE, was saying.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Adam White on November 24, 2019, 06:25:37 PM
"Not one mention of the bungalows on Mango that will look directly at a 4 story garage 75' from their front door. "

I doubt they like it either, but I'm pretty certain that strip is mostly commercial, so that is a significant difference.  And yeah, this is America where who ever has the Gold makes the rules.... Did either of you go to the meeting? I was just telling you what my friend, WHO LIVES VERY CLOSE TO THE SITE, was saying.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/fSYClFsQp8AHkWZexi/source.gif)
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Kerry on November 25, 2019, 08:13:55 AM
I wonder if anyone here will ever live long enough to see the day when a new development is opposed because it will over-crowd the sidewalks and adjacent mass transit stops.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: J Random Sucker on November 25, 2019, 08:23:41 AM
Not one mention of the bungalows on Mango that will look directly at a 4 story garage 75' from their front door.

Well...

one mention. ::)
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Steve on November 25, 2019, 08:47:40 AM
I wonder if anyone here will ever live long enough to see the day when a new development is opposed because it will over-crowd the sidewalks and adjacent mass transit stops.

Aside from NY, SF, DC, and Chicago, no city in America has this issue.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 25, 2019, 09:01:07 AM
I haven't heard anything about the chapel coming down or the development being in two phases. Is this something mentioned by the developer and church or rumor? Also, how does the height compare to the previously approved height of the East San Marco? Shorter, higher or the same?

The developer apparently has a clause for a 7 year right of first refusal on the remainder of the church property.  That's where the rumor of a second phase is coming from. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: jaxjags on November 25, 2019, 11:57:06 AM
No new development will be perfect or satisfy everybody. That's a fact. That's why our government leaders make decisions on what is good for the WHOLE community and not just one or two residents. If we continue to deny these kinds of developments we will stop getting the proposals. Too hard to do business in Jax, will be the line. More abandoned buildings will come. As SMM said this is not a 500 unit 20 story building going in.

Also as to the height, I'm not sure it will be much differ than the neighboring Publix.

As I don't live in the area I don't want to be accused of supporting something I don't believe in. I live in an old subdivision in rural North Country. We have close to 300 homes in 2 subdivisions going in a .25 mile from our home. I encourage this development. It is the only way we will continue to get more service, both public and private in this area. Also I am positive my home value will increased compared to these builder grade homes at over $100/sf on micro lots.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 25, 2019, 12:11:19 PM
My only qualm is with the design.  I'd prefer red brick like what is there now or Mediterranean to match East San Marco next door.  This may be "bungalow inspired" but it looks too beach style for me.  I'd love to see more renderings and be proven wrong, however.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: marcuscnelson on November 25, 2019, 04:47:51 PM
No new development will be perfect or satisfy everybody. That's a fact. That's why our government leaders make decisions on what is good for the WHOLE community and not just one or two residents.

This goes both ways. If a majority of residents come around and decide that they believe this isn't good for their community, are you willing to accept that?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: MusicMan on November 25, 2019, 08:46:06 PM
Well, I did actually drive over today to take a good look at the site. The bungalows on Mango are 50/50 commercial residential. The homes which back up to it on Alexandria are big expensive homes. AS I STATED I DON'T HAVE A DOG IN THE FIGHT. But the resistance seems to be spearheaded by the folks living in the homes on Alexandria. If you drive around the several blocks that surround the site there are more "Right Size San Marco" signs than I would have expected. I'm not sure what point Adam was trying to make, I don't think he lives in San Marco or went to the meeting. BUT I DO drive down that street every morning for several years taking my kids to school at Julia Landon and it backs up pretty far down the street, so much so that I go back through Holly Lane and bypass the Square and Hendricks Ave entirely to get to school.  Change coming to such an established and well to do neighborhood is usually met with resistance correct? 

For the record there has been almost ZERO push back for SoBa, plus the two huge new developments on Philips Hwy, Correct?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 26, 2019, 09:43:01 AM
AS I STATED I DON'T HAVE A DOG IN THE FIGHT.

You know what's a great way to say that you're a neutral party? Typing IN ALL CAPS THAT YOU'RE NOT TAKING SIDES!!
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Adam White on November 26, 2019, 10:57:01 AM
Well, I did actually drive over today to take a good look at the site. The bungalows on Mango are 50/50 commercial residential. The homes which back up to it on Alexandria are big expensive homes. AS I STATED I DON'T HAVE A DOG IN THE FIGHT. But the resistance seems to be spearheaded by the folks living in the homes on Alexandria. If you drive around the several blocks that surround the site there are more "Right Size San Marco" signs than I would have expected. I'm not sure what point Adam was trying to make, I don't think he lives in San Marco or went to the meeting. BUT I DO drive down that street every morning for several years taking my kids to school at Julia Landon and it backs up pretty far down the street, so much so that I go back through Holly Lane and bypass the Square and Hendricks Ave entirely to get to school.  Change coming to such an established and well to do neighborhood is usually met with resistance correct? 

For the record there has been almost ZERO push back for SoBa, plus the two huge new developments on Philips Hwy, Correct?

I'm reticent to try and explain my point, as your comments about whether or not I live in San Marco,whether or not I attended your friend's meeting and the fact that you've driven down the street indicate to me that you clearly just aren't going to get it. We're clearly talking at cross purposes here. Or so it would seem.

Maybe I don't get your point.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on November 26, 2019, 03:24:46 PM
This going in front of the city council tonight I believe.  I contacted our representative like Matt did and suggest you do too.

I would like to see higher end architecture in that spot ascetically but am for the overall concept.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: jaxjags on November 26, 2019, 03:41:11 PM
No new development will be perfect or satisfy everybody. That's a fact. That's why our government leaders make decisions on what is good for the WHOLE community and not just one or two residents.

This goes both ways. If a majority of residents come around and decide that they believe this isn't good for their community, are you willing to accept that?
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: jaxjags on November 26, 2019, 03:53:08 PM
No new development will be perfect or satisfy everybody. That's a fact. That's why our government leaders make decisions on what is good for the WHOLE community and not just one or two residents.

This goes both ways. If a majority of residents come around and decide that they believe this isn't good for their community, are you willing to accept that?
Not sure. This is not the same as a home owners association where you can vote for these type of things. We have a representative system with city council representing the whole neighborhood and the city. If you take a vote, who gets to vote. Just the neighbors, within a mile, the whole CC district, the city. What happens when some like the development, but don't like the color or finishes. I here your point, but running new development this way can lead to no development. If you took a vote by just the businesses it would win, correct? Also those who don't want this should make valid points. For instance home values will  not go down and traffic will not be significantly impacted. If you just don't want apartments, not sure that flies.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Captain Zissou on November 26, 2019, 04:29:36 PM
I emailed in support of the development.  City council should be interesting tonight.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on November 26, 2019, 06:58:37 PM
Council meeting was ugly with a parade of Speakers including the Mensa members  that recently built obscene homes bordering a commercial property. They are so concerned about our neighborhood, character and it’s green space that an older home on a double lot was demolished so they could build new McMansions just overflowing with the historic character they are trying so hard to protect. I must admit, I came close to tearing up with the inevitable “think of the children!”.

If I have to choose between 200 new residents in an apartment who will likely walk to most places in our neighborhood or 200 of these special Current  residents who drive everywhere, use stupid amounts of water and chemicals on their historic lawns, I choose the renters every time.

I am going to need more popcorn.

Note...sounds like much negative feedback to council members. If you are in favor, please contact city council. As with most things, The nays  tend to be active and vocal.

Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: jaxjags on December 09, 2019, 03:27:39 PM
I emailed my support to all City Council Members.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: bl8jaxnative on January 16, 2020, 03:59:24 PM
Did the developer get the zoning change?

I've seen a lot right size San Marco signs, even in other neighborhoods.  Curious if they blocked it in the end or not.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: 77danj7 on January 16, 2020, 04:08:02 PM
According to the facebook for these guys the developer submitted a revised PUD and site plan.  I haven't looked at them to see what is different as of yet.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on January 17, 2020, 07:19:10 AM
It seems like they've shifted their focus away from the density to the architectural appropriateness.  Not going to fault them to trying to force the developer into a nicer product.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on January 17, 2020, 08:50:43 AM
Not going to fault them to trying to force the developer into a nicer product.

Agreed. Sounds like the developers are really trying in that department. Hopefully, the SMPS eventually gets on board.

At this point I am not sure what will make me happier...more density finally coming to San Marco or getting rid of the hideous yard signs. Plus, my wife has had about had it with me “mistakenly” referring to the catch phrase as Get it White.

Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on January 17, 2020, 09:08:06 AM
Guess I should have waited 5 minutes as SMPS just submitted an update. There will be another town hall to discuss the changes but the biggest is the reduction of 10 units(boo) and the parking deck being reduced a level. (Now that is a big change)
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Steve on January 17, 2020, 09:38:46 AM
Guess I should have waited 5 minutes as SMPS just submitted an update. There will be another town hall to discuss the changes but the biggest is the reduction of 10 units(boo) and the parking deck being reduced a level. (Now that is a big change)

This doesn't seem like it adds up (though not doubting you or SMPS). A reduction of 10 units allows them to not build an entire level of the garage? If they allocated 2 spots per unit then that's 20 cars. Was the garage only 20 spots per level?

I do agree about the architecture - no issues with pushing them in that direction. I didn't think the original renderings were terrible, but nothing special.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on January 17, 2020, 09:44:02 AM
Guess I should have waited 5 minutes as SMPS just submitted an update. There will be another town hall to discuss the changes but the biggest is the reduction of 10 units(boo) and the parking deck being reduced a level. (Now that is a big change)

This doesn't seem like it adds up (though not doubting you or SMPS). A reduction of 10 units allows them to not build an entire level of the garage? If they allocated 2 spots per unit then that's 20 cars. Was the garage only 20 spots per level?

I do agree about the architecture - no issues with pushing them in that direction. I didn't think the original renderings were terrible, but nothing special.

I haven’t seen much detail but my best guess is that we are going to lose some of the public parking that was going to be available when the Church wasn’t using it.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Tacachale on January 17, 2020, 09:54:43 AM
Not going to fault them to trying to force the developer into a nicer product.

Agreed. Sounds like the developers are really trying in that department. Hopefully, the SMPS eventually gets on board.

At this point I am not sure what will make me happier...more density finally coming to San Marco or getting rid of the hideous yard signs. Plus, my wife has had about had it with me “mistakenly” referring to the catch phrase as Get it White.

Haha, perfect.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Captain Zissou on January 17, 2020, 10:11:52 AM
In my opinion, every change that was made to the development has made it worse.  Hopefully the decreased garage size will not remove the public parking, as that is the main positive that the development has going for it.  Removing the units on Mitchell and increasing the setbacks also don't really do anything for the urban character of the neighborhood.  This is turning into a suburban complex dropped into a historic core neighborhood. 
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: sanmarcomatt on January 17, 2020, 04:53:25 PM
In my opinion, every change that was made to the development has made it worse.  Hopefully the decreased garage size will not remove the public parking, as that is the main positive that the development has going for it.  Removing the units on Mitchell and increasing the setbacks also don't really do anything for the urban character of the neighborhood.  This is turning into a suburban complex dropped into a historic core neighborhood. 

Any concerns about less public parking were happily unfounded.

The units on Mitchell were a big issue for the “people who built McMansions bordering commercial property because they couldn’t afford to build similar McMansions in San Marco that wasn’t bordering commercial property “. And that’s fine.

I am optimistic that this is still going to be a great project and will be approved.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: bl8jaxnative on February 15, 2020, 01:30:29 PM
Does anyone know of a handy summary of all the zones used in JAX?   Duval GIS makes it easy to see them.  But I wouldn't know whatr CRO means vs PUD vs CCG1, etc al.  g
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Des on February 17, 2020, 07:34:08 AM
COJ used to have a helpful summary of all the zones in PDF form, but I guess that was too convenient so they got rid of them.

https://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/development-services-division/zoning-district-summaries (https://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/development-services-division/zoning-district-summaries)

Chapter 3 of the Zoning Code
https://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/development-services-division/zoning-section (https://www.coj.net/departments/planning-and-development/development-services-division/zoning-section)
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: thelakelander on February 17, 2020, 08:19:42 AM
COJ got rid of everything. The website is literally worthless now. I believe it had something to do with ADA compliance.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Charles Hunter on February 17, 2020, 09:11:42 AM
COJ got rid of everything. The website is literally worthless now. I believe it had something to do with ADA compliance.

That is just an excuse for not spending money. Any website can be made ADA compliant. And, it fits in with the non-transparency of the current administration.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: realestatejax on February 17, 2020, 01:52:08 PM
Does anyone know of a handy summary of all the zones used in JAX?   Duval GIS makes it easy to see them.  But I wouldn't know whatr CRO means vs PUD vs CCG1, etc al.  g

Go to municode: https://library.municode.com/fl/jacksonville/codes/code_of_ordinances?nodeId=ZOSE_CH656ZOCO
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: Steve on February 17, 2020, 02:41:57 PM
COJ got rid of everything. The website is literally worthless now. I believe it had something to do with ADA compliance.

That is just an excuse for not spending money. Any website can be made ADA compliant. And, it fits in with the non-transparency of the current administration.

In fairness, does anyone know whether that is actively in work? ADA Compliance on the web allows for ALMOST all content to be displayed, but it takes a fair amount of work to do (it could be a couple years of rework).

To be clear-this needs to get done and if it isn’t in work then shame on them. But it isn’t necessarily simple.
Title: Re: Just say no to density
Post by: acme54321 on February 17, 2020, 04:09:20 PM
Our organization has had similar moves by departments and they seem to get away with it.  They get caught out of compliance on something and it's easier for them to just eliminate it than go through the effort to correct it.  Admittedly they probably don't have the bandwidth to come into compliance and maintain some of the discrepancies.