The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: thelakelander on October 04, 2019, 10:38:43 AM

Title: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on October 04, 2019, 10:38:43 AM
Looks like it could be 2024 before the infrastructure work is completed. No timeline mentioned for start or completion of vertical development.

Quote
Project planners with The District, a proposed $600 million mixed-use development on the Downtown Southbank, are closer to groundbreaking by starting the permitting phase.

Developer Michael Munz filed a performance schedule Friday with the Downtown Investment Authority.

Bill Schilling, vice president at Kimley-Horn & Associates Inc., said Thursday that The District will begin construction by April 13.

According to Schilling, public amenities supported by The District’s Community Redevelopment Agency, such as the project’s 3.5-acre riverfront park and multiuse trail, must be complete within three years of the construction start date.

Infrastructure improvements, like water and sewer utilities, roads and streetscape, will be complete by 2024.

Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-district-sets-timeline-for-infrastructure-construction
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: sanmarcomatt on October 04, 2019, 11:28:53 AM
The house next to Rummel’s is for sale. It would be financial insanity to buy it but it is tempting just so I could heckle him daily about the the district start date. I am picturing the wipe off board scene from Zero Dark 30 but about the size of his Jesus Xmas display.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: tufsu1 on October 04, 2019, 01:20:05 PM
"will begin construction by April 13" - note no year is given ;)
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: vicupstate on October 04, 2019, 01:40:42 PM
Quote
Looks like it could be 2024 before the infrastructure work is completed.

Hoover (Boulder) Dam was completed in 5 years, so that sounds about right.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: heights unknown on October 05, 2019, 09:10:33 PM
Just turned 63 yesterday; I'll be dead and hopefully gone to Heaven before this is completed. Hope I get to see it done.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: sanmarcomatt on January 15, 2020, 09:19:00 AM
This probably falls into the water is wet category for updates.....

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/dia-gives-developers-of-the-district-90-day-extension-to-obtain-financing

Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 15, 2020, 10:10:32 AM
Definitely not holding my breath for this one. I really don't see this one getting that far off paper.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Josh on January 15, 2020, 10:14:08 AM
What a joke.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 15, 2020, 10:26:14 AM
Like Lot J and the Shipyards, it's just never made much sense from a market perspective. Just because someone draws a rendering with highrises and thousands of extra housing units, doesn't mean the dream is financially feasible for our second tier market. All the non-sexy stuff we avoid doing (two-waying streets, maintaining existing parks, upgrading public schools, better basic but reliable transit options, preservation and adaptive reuse, etc.) are the things needed to stimulate more market rate opportunities for the private sector.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Papa33 on January 15, 2020, 10:26:47 AM
Rummell is what, 70+ years old??  He probably accepts he won't see this come to pass.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: vicupstate on January 15, 2020, 11:13:58 AM
There can't another city of significant size that has more vacant riverfront land in its core than Jacksonville right now.

JEA Generating Station/The District
Landing
City Hall Annex/Courthouse
Shipyards
Metro park and Friendship Fountain are essentially vacant as well. 

potentially Berkman 2 will be added at SOME point.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: vicupstate on January 15, 2020, 11:14:51 AM
Like Lot J and the Shipyards, it's just never made much sense from a market perspective. Just because someone draws a rendering with highrises and thousands of extra housing units, doesn't mean the dream is financially feasible for our second tier market. All the non-sexy stuff we avoid doing (two-waying streets, maintaining existing parks, upgrading public schools, better basic but reliable transit options, preservation and adaptive reuse, etc.) are the things needed to stimulate more market rate opportunities for the private sector.

JAX prefers to go with the 'game changer' strategy, unfortunately.   
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: MusicMan on January 15, 2020, 12:08:14 PM
No surprise here. Disappointment, yes.  Go back and look at the quotes from the past.  You gotta go pretty far back, too.
"We are the guys who can get it done...." 

Also, technically speaking, Rummell and his partner do not 'own' it. They have a mortgage. Their lender owns it. 
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: CityLife on January 15, 2020, 12:57:33 PM
Quote
Rummell also told Boyer that Elements is near finalizing an agreement with a developer for The District. He did not name the firm.

“The good news is that the most competitive proposal is from an incredibly experienced and highly regarded mixed-use developer with vast experience with similar projects, including work here in Florida,” Rummell wrote. “We executed a Letter of Intent with this group and are on the verge of executing a final agreement with them.

“Given this developer’s track record of execution on complex mixed-use developments, we are very confident that The District and the City of Jacksonville will be able to continue the path forward,” he wrote.

Would hold off on calling it a bust until we hear who this mixed-use developer is. I know of at least 5 that would fit this bill, have the capital to pull off anything they want to, and have done work in Florida (mostly South Florida).
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 15, 2020, 04:33:13 PM
Capital doesn't matter if there's no market. Seriously doubt this is a single phase type of project.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 15, 2020, 05:41:08 PM
The inability to attract investors is a problem Jax created.  Anyone with enough money to invest in something like The District, isn't going to do it in Jacksonville.  There are too many other proven markets to spend that kind of money.  This is why the City needs to do a housing study so those looking for investors have something to show them.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: jaxlongtimer on January 15, 2020, 06:49:50 PM
There can't another city of significant size that has more vacant riverfront land in its core than Jacksonville right now.

JEA Generating Station/The District
Landing
City Hall Annex/Courthouse
Shipyards
Metro park and Friendship Fountain are essentially vacant as well. 

potentially Berkman 2 will be added at SOME point.

Point taken.

One might also add the riverfront Ford Plant and the Times Union property.  As recent or immediately planned projects, the condos on the river in front of the "One Call" building and the riverfront apartments by the School Board building might also be absorbing some current demand for residential.

Due to its similar scale and multi use concept, Lot J is clearly competition too.  We could also add La Villa, the old Greyhound bus site, the First Baptist properties, the old Independent Life/JEA building, the current JEA building, the Trio, Chase Properties Southbank site by I-95 and some of the Brooklyn projects as additional competition on some level. 

On the demand side, some of the possible/rumored office building prospects might have included JEA, Vystar and Deutsche Bank, none of which are now looking.  Seems some other large prospects are leasing buildings in the suburbs, not Downtown, or expanding in place.

Too much land and not enough demand means dilution of interest and, until much of this property drops out or a miracle boom occurs, there may not be enough interest in anyone project to, literally, take it to the bank for financing.  On the other hand, the first mover may have a big advantage.  Who will win that race?

Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 15, 2020, 07:11:25 PM
The inability to attract investors is a problem Jax created.  Anyone with enough money to invest in something like The District, isn't going to do it in Jacksonville.  There are too many other proven markets to spend that kind of money.  This is why the City needs to do a housing study so those looking for investors have something to show them.

No need to waste tax money on a housing study. People who invest in urban development don't need COJ to tell them how to invest and make money off their investments. COJ would be better off breaking down the barriers that make urban redevelopment more inclusive locally.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 15, 2020, 07:22:55 PM
There can't another city of significant size that has more vacant riverfront land in its core than Jacksonville right now.

JEA Generating Station/The District
Landing
City Hall Annex/Courthouse
Shipyards
Metro park and Friendship Fountain are essentially vacant as well. 

potentially Berkman 2 will be added at SOME point.

This one was pretty difficult but I tried! Maybe Gary, IN, Wilmington, DE, Detroit or Buffalo. Pretty hard to find anything close outside of these places.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: heights unknown on January 15, 2020, 09:44:53 PM
Looks like it could be 2024 before the infrastructure work is completed. No timeline mentioned for start or completion of vertical development.

Quote
Project planners with The District, a proposed $600 million mixed-use development on the Downtown Southbank, are closer to groundbreaking by starting the permitting phase.

Developer Michael Munz filed a performance schedule Friday with the Downtown Investment Authority.

Bill Schilling, vice president at Kimley-Horn & Associates Inc., said Thursday that The District will begin construction by April 13.

According to Schilling, public amenities supported by The District’s Community Redevelopment Agency, such as the project’s 3.5-acre riverfront park and multiuse trail, must be complete within three years of the construction start date.

Infrastructure improvements, like water and sewer utilities, roads and streetscape, will be complete by 2024.

Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-district-sets-timeline-for-infrastructure-construction
I'll be dead and gone by the time this is completed. I hope I get to see Jax be the city that it should have been decades ago. It's a shame our city leaders "fart around," and "piddle, twiddle, and resolve, not one damn thing do they solve." I hope those of you 10 to 20 years or more younger than I, will get to see a dense, heavily laden, successful, prosperous, and busy downtown and city of Jacksonville as a whole; don't think I will see it.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Bill Hoff on January 15, 2020, 10:01:24 PM
“A homeless guy in Detroit has more mojo than a millionaire in Jacksonville" - Khan, 2014
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: sanmarcomatt on January 15, 2020, 10:18:44 PM
“A homeless guy in Detroit has more mojo than a millionaire in Jacksonville" - Khan, 2014


Anyone know  how much mojo is in a record of 40-91?
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: MusicMan on January 15, 2020, 10:54:13 PM
Love it. Notice how he didn't say "Billionaire."
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 16, 2020, 12:01:10 AM
The inability to attract investors is a problem Jax created.  Anyone with enough money to invest in something like The District, isn't going to do it in Jacksonville.  There are too many other proven markets to spend that kind of money.  This is why the City needs to do a housing study so those looking for investors have something to show them.

No need to waste tax money on a housing study. People who invest in urban development don't need COJ to tell them how to invest and make money off their investments. COJ would be better off breaking down the barriers that make urban redevelopment more inclusive locally.

A housing study isn't a waste, unless it comes back showing there is no demand.  Jax is the only city I can think of that hasn't done one.

Tampa, St Pete, Clearwater recently completed theirs.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 16, 2020, 07:31:54 AM
I doubt a housing study resulted in developers like Post Properties investing in those Central Florida cities 20 years ago. I really don't see any housing study conducted by COJ exposing something that entities already in the business don't already know. The last study (LaVilla) offered very little substance and inaccurate information regarding actual market conditions. It would be good to take that study money and use it on placemaking dead spaces in the core.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 16, 2020, 07:45:09 AM
Well, I guess Jax can just keep doing what it has been doing then.

Meanwhile, back at ranch...

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2018/12/17/downtown-greenvilles-wealth-apartments-theres-room-more/2080708002/
The housing study in Greenville, SC said they need downtown housing for 6,000 more people so guess where developers are going.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 16, 2020, 08:03:40 AM
Developers have been investing heavily in DT Greenville for well over 25-30 years now. I'll admit that my confidence in COJ may be a bit lower than your's.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: MusicMan on January 16, 2020, 08:32:42 AM
I've lived in Florida about 40 years, and the strangest thing I find about Jacksonville is how, over the last 20 years, developers have flocked to the featureless "piney woods" such as St Johns Town Center  and Nocatee and avoided the waterfront downtown. As has been noted on TJM many times, waterfront in most Florida cities is way more valuable than pine flats with nothing around it. Not here.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 16, 2020, 08:46:49 AM
^You should hear the horror stories of people who have attempted to open or invest in DT, only to give up and do their projects elsewhere in the city. To a degree, Five Points, CORK, Rail Yard District, 8th & Main, Edgewood Avenue, etc. have all benefited from the difficulty of trying to open a business or make an investment in downtown.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 16, 2020, 08:55:52 AM
Developers have been investing heavily in DT Greenville for well over 25-30 years now. I'll admit that my confidence in COJ may be a bit lower than your's.

That was covered in the article I linked to but I was doing it from my phone so I couldn't copy the relevant text.

Quote
"That’s considered stunning,” Mayor Knox White said. "This is not the apartments of 20 years ago. It’s a different demographic, and it seems to be more sustainable than years past because people’s behaviors are changing."



When The Beach Company, based in Charleston, entered the Greenville market in 2014 to build Main + Stone and SouthRidge, the luxury apartment boom had just begun.

Dan Doyle, the company's senior vice president, said that Greenville in particular stands out from a broader investment interest in the Southeast.

If Jacksonville wants to attract investors to make The District and other similar developments possible Jax has to give the investment community something tangible.  While multiple cities are providing real data to attract developers and investors, Jax is using second hand and anecdotal information like "the phones at the Barnett are ringing off the hook".

If The District can't even come up with the $31 million for the CDD how the hell are they going to get the $600 million for the actual project?
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 16, 2020, 09:04:22 AM
I agree that Jax needs to give something tangible. I just disagree that COJ making up a housing study is tangible. From my experiences, tangible is investing in yourself, your parks, schools, streets, mass transit system, buildings, etc. A city putting its money where its mouth is with its public infrastructure and properties has historically attracted private investment moreso than doing a study that generally collects dust. While we've largely ignored these types of investments consistently in downtown, we've spent billions along the JTB corridor in the last 25 years. It should be no surprise that private development has followed.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: vicupstate on January 16, 2020, 09:14:14 AM
Well, I guess Jax can just keep doing what it has been doing then.

Meanwhile, back at ranch...

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/2018/12/17/downtown-greenvilles-wealth-apartments-theres-room-more/2080708002/
The housing study in Greenville, SC said they need downtown housing for 6,000 more people so guess where developers are going.


If you read the article it lists the 15 most valuable properties in DT Greenville, 8 of which are apartment buildings. Just since that article was published a month ago, two properties sold that have taken over the top two spots. Both are apartments and one was already on the list (Trailside) at $28 million but just sold for $47.3 million. The other property was recently completed and flipped for $72.5 million.   
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 16, 2020, 09:23:21 AM
I agree that Jax needs to give something tangible. I just disagree that COJ making up a housing study is tangible. From my experiences, tangible is investing in yourself, your parks, schools, streets, mass transit system, buildings, etc. A city putting its money where its mouth is with its public infrastructure and properties has historically attracted private investment moreso than doing a study that generally collects dust. While we've largely ignored these types of investments consistently in downtown, we've spent billions along the JTB corridor in the last 25 years. It should be no surprise that private development has followed.

Yes - Jax needs to be doing those things as well.  It is a failure on many fronts.  Memorial Park still isn't fixed and it has been 3 years.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Transman on January 16, 2020, 10:22:32 AM
The City really doesn't have that much money for infrastructure.  Most large cities like Jacksonville have the same issue, pensions.  I think of COJ as a wholly own subsidiary of the police and fire departments and their pension funds.  The past administrations sold the taxpayers out for their political gain.  We (the taxpayers) were never at the table for these deals and you can see the results.

The developers of the District and Lot J are not spending their money, the city is spending the upfront money, which is crazy.  I don't think the COJ has land development in its charter.  The development will come, as it has elsewhere when the developers can make money here.  The City should just stay out of the development business, they are terrible at it.  They are picking winners based on political advancement or personal gain not good.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 16, 2020, 02:57:58 PM
Best way to eliminate police and fire expenses - reduce the footprint you have to cover with police and fire protection.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: bl8jaxnative on January 16, 2020, 04:40:54 PM
There can't another city of significant size that has more vacant riverfront land in its core than Jacksonville right now.

It's not about city size. Most cities never have these sort of port locations and shipyards to start with.   It's about having an old ship / port industry that's moved on to newer locations.  Cities that moved their ports are also rare.  It's also rare that cities that had the sort of large size of port locations that Jacksonville had moved their their port operations. 

Cities where ports moved are San Francisco ( IIRC moved to Oakland when containization kicked in during the 1960s ) and New York City and......... that's it.

Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: bl8jaxnative on January 16, 2020, 04:51:55 PM

Sorry if I missed this.  What is going on at the east end of the Southbank Riverwalk.  Is this to repair it or is this is an extension in anticipation of The District or some other sort of development on that site?
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 16, 2020, 05:13:16 PM

Sorry if I missed this.  What is going on at the east end of the Southbank Riverwalk.  Is this to repair it or is this is an extension in anticipation of The District or some other sort of development on that site?

I think someone said earlier it was a kayak launch, but maybe they were being sarcastic.  It is difficult to tell sometimes :)
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: acme54321 on January 16, 2020, 06:31:48 PM
It's a kayak launch
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: FlaBoy on January 16, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
There can't another city of significant size that has more vacant riverfront land in its core than Jacksonville right now.

It's not about city size. Most cities never have these sort of port locations and shipyards to start with.   It's about having an old ship / port industry that's moved on to newer locations.  Cities that moved their ports are also rare.  It's also rare that cities that had the sort of large size of port locations that Jacksonville had moved their their port operations. 

Cities where ports moved are San Francisco ( IIRC moved to Oakland when containization kicked in during the 1960s ) and New York City and......... that's it.

Channelside in Tampa is all former port land that was moved south. The Navy Yards in DC is a former working port that is no longer. Those, just off the top of my head, were former ports so I imagine you can find them as the land became more valuable than the port.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 16, 2020, 07:19:26 PM
There are so many cities that moved their original ports and repurposed the land you couldn't possibly name them all.  Even Springfield from The Simpson's had the Squid Docs.

The Seattle waterfront is all restaurants and tourist attractions now.

https://www.minerslanding.com/
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 16, 2020, 07:54:34 PM
Yeah. Literally every major Great Lakes, Pacific, Gulf and Atlantic coast city had old port facilities that were either rebuilt or relocated with containerization. Jax literally has no excuses outside of putting its own feet in its mouth when it comes to the activity level of the downtown waterfront.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: I-10east on January 16, 2020, 09:58:24 PM
^You should hear the horror stories of people who have attempted to open or invest in DT, only to give up and do their projects elsewhere in the city. To a degree, Five Points, CORK, Rail Yard District, 8th & Main, Edgewood Avenue, etc. have all benefited from the difficulty of trying to open a business or make an investment in downtown.

What are some of the reasons that Jax is business unfriendly in downtown? 
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 16, 2020, 10:26:06 PM
Some comments I've heard from various business owners include moving goal posts when it comes to getting projects off the ground, not having much to select from for certain types of businesses/spaces due to over demolition of properties, extra layers of tape to get through compared with other areas outside of downtown, being undercut on leasing rates (property owners who put their own money into the game vs publicly subsidized competing projects), winners and losers tied to politics, etc. In general, things that should be easy fixes if there is a goal to actually resolve them.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: fieldafm on January 17, 2020, 07:36:32 AM

Sorry if I missed this.  What is going on at the east end of the Southbank Riverwalk.  Is this to repair it or is this is an extension in anticipation of The District or some other sort of development on that site?

It is an ADA-accessible, floating kayak launch... as described here:
https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/riverwalk-exercise-park-now-open-downtown/ (https://www.thejaxsonmag.com/article/riverwalk-exercise-park-now-open-downtown/)
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 17, 2020, 07:58:21 AM
Yeah. Literally every major Great Lakes, Pacific, Gulf and Atlantic coast city had old port facilities that were either rebuilt or relocated with containerization. Jax literally has no excuses outside of putting its own feet in its mouth when it comes to the activity level of the downtown waterfront.

Even river ports are included.  New Orleans built an aquarium on their old waterfront, Memphis built housing and parks, Vicksburg and Shreveport put in casinos and riverwalks, and Chattanooga did parks and riverwalks.  Sacramento has Old Towne .
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: thelakelander on January 17, 2020, 08:44:56 AM
You're right. There's a ton of river cities that have had to deal with the same issue.
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: heights unknown on January 17, 2020, 10:26:44 AM
Yeah. Literally every major Great Lakes, Pacific, Gulf and Atlantic coast city had old port facilities that were either rebuilt or relocated with containerization. Jax literally has no excuses outside of putting its own feet in its mouth when it comes to the activity level of the downtown waterfront.

Even river ports are included.  New Orleans built an aquarium on their old waterfront, Memphis built housing and parks, Vicksburg and Shreveport put in casinos and riverwalks, and Chattanooga did parks and riverwalks.  Sacramento has Old Towne .
And Jax put in empty lots!
Title: Re: The District sets timeline for infrastructure construction
Post by: Kerry on January 17, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
Yeah. Literally every major Great Lakes, Pacific, Gulf and Atlantic coast city had old port facilities that were either rebuilt or relocated with containerization. Jax literally has no excuses outside of putting its own feet in its mouth when it comes to the activity level of the downtown waterfront.

Even river ports are included.  New Orleans built an aquarium on their old waterfront, Memphis built housing and parks, Vicksburg and Shreveport put in casinos and riverwalks, and Chattanooga did parks and riverwalks.  Sacramento has Old Towne .
And Jax put in empty lots!

With fences around them.