The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: thelakelander on April 30, 2019, 03:49:08 PM

Title: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2019, 03:49:08 PM
The comments in this article come across as very immature, vision-less and so silly its sad that this isn't April Fools Day. Evidently public engagement is out and there's no real plan or timeline for anything other than demolition of a perfectly fine asset in the middle of a downtown that you can role a bowling ball down four blocks from Hemming to the Landing and not hit anything in the process.

Quote
“To get public input is genuinely unnecessary because we’ve been there and done that.”

Wow.

Quote
Hughes said “there’s not necessarily a pot of money” that has been set aside for the Landing property once demolition is completed.

So we are looking at a homeless hangout for the foreseeable future.

Quote
He also maintains that an idea floated over the years to open up the center of the Landing isn’t realistic.

“The exact numbers, you know, aren’t in hand, but it's cost prohibitive. And more importantly, it defies reason. The structure was not designed to be anything more than the simplest steel and concrete construction for the purpose of housing a 1980s-style shopping mall,” said Hughes in response to the idea.


Full article: https://news.wjct.org/post/mayor-s-office-its-time-move-forward-demolishing-jacksonville-landing#_ga=2.211867920.589230317.1556651318-129271083.1530834732


That last quote sounds like it came from someone with absolutely zero experience in the world of architecture, building design, adaptive reuse and construction. Pretty crazy to see how a peer city like Nashville looked so great for the NFL Draft after years of logical revitalization practices, only to read stuff like this in regards to your own city's deconstruction. However, what's worse? The blind leading the blind or the those who know better, but sitting back and being quiet about it?

Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: vicupstate on April 30, 2019, 04:14:01 PM
Quote
However, what's worse? The blind leading the blind or the those who know better, but sitting back and being quiet about it?

I would say the former, because the latter are likely being threatened to keep their mouth shut.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Tacachale on April 30, 2019, 04:18:46 PM
There is only one reason you'd commit to demolishing the Landing before there's a plan (let alone funding) to replace it. That's if you don't actually want to be committed to building the replacement, and are planning on it sitting as an empty lot indefinitely.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2019, 04:20:44 PM
It just all seems so silly. It's like the goal is to keep demolition companies in business moreso than revitalizing downtown. $22 million in public money with grass as the result? A 50% vacant Landing with $22 million in public money being used elsewhere is better, yet we're in a weird era in time where people think vacant lots and no plan equal progress.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: vicupstate on April 30, 2019, 04:25:03 PM
Quote
Hans Strauch, the original architect of The Jacksonville Landing, asked last week, “Who in their right mind would spend $15 million to demolish something and have no economic recovery in place?”

Pretty Much.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: avonjax on April 30, 2019, 06:51:30 PM
Curry is an idiot with no vision for the city. He was the worst candidate for Mayor and now he has 4 more years to demolish what's left. I have given up. Nice things are happening but we continue to level downtown with absolutely no plan for the future on these sites. Let's cancel the idea of a convention center again. Mark my words the Berkman II site, the Landing site and the Annex and Courthouse site will be weed ridden empty lots for decades. My faith in downtown Jax is gone. Can't blame anyone for the explosion of the 'burbs like St John's Town and other sites near there. At least they are alive after 5. I have watched the decline for 50 years now and every time things appear to be going forward a mayor like Curry comes along and takes us back. When the Landing goes it will be the nail in the coffin for me.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: heights unknown on April 30, 2019, 07:37:57 PM
The comments in this article come across as very immature, vision-less and so silly its sad that this isn't April Fools Day. Evidently public engagement is out and there's no real plan or timeline for anything other than demolition of a perfectly fine asset in the middle of a downtown that you can role a bowling ball down four blocks from Hemming to the Landing and not hit anything in the process.

Quote
“To get public input is genuinely unnecessary because we’ve been there and done that.”

Wow.

Quote
Hughes said “there’s not necessarily a pot of money” that has been set aside for the Landing property once demolition is completed.

So we are looking at a homeless hangout for the foreseeable future.

Quote
He also maintains that an idea floated over the years to open up the center of the Landing isn’t realistic.

“The exact numbers, you know, aren’t in hand, but it's cost prohibitive. And more importantly, it defies reason. The structure was not designed to be anything more than the simplest steel and concrete construction for the purpose of housing a 1980s-style shopping mall,” said Hughes in response to the idea.


Full article: https://news.wjct.org/post/mayor-s-office-its-time-move-forward-demolishing-jacksonville-landing#_ga=2.211867920.589230317.1556651318-129271083.1530834732


That last quote sounds like it came from someone with absolutely zero experience in the world of architecture, building design, adaptive reuse and construction. Pretty crazy to see how a peer city like Nashville looked so great for the NFL Draft after years of logical revitalization practices, only to read stuff like this in regards to your own city's deconstruction. However, what's worse? The blind leading the blind or the those who know better, but sitting back and being quiet about it?


With behavior like this, our leaders are showing that Jacksonville is not a world class city, or even a great city on a national scale (despite a population just shy of 1 million). Jax does not deserve the Jacksonville Jaquars, in my opinion; not because of the people and citizens, but because of inept, rudderless leadership that just doesn't have a clue. At one time in the not too distant past, it seemed like Curry and Co. were on the right track...it was a ruse to say the least. It's not the fact that if they demolish the Landing the homeless, and others will frequent and camp there, that's not the point or fact (that may very well happen); but it's clueless, idiotic, and misfit leadership that don't see the forest for the trees and don't deserve to be in leadership positions within city government...and that includes the Mayor. What I just read is just plain stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid is that stupid does. They will not learn from the mistakes of the city's past and history from previous city leaders who held Jacksonville back which resulted in how downtown, and the city as a whole has turned out at present (parking lots, parking lots, parking lots and with the citizens having a huge inferiority complex).....and as a third or fourth rate city despite a population of almost a million. I feel so bad for Jacksonville right now because she could be so much more than what she is.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: heights unknown on April 30, 2019, 07:46:00 PM
It just all seems so silly. It's like the goal is to keep demolition companies in business moreso than revitalizing downtown. $22 million in public money with grass as the result? A 50% vacant Landing with $22 million in public money being used elsewhere is better, yet we're in a weird era in time where people think vacant lots and no plan equal progress.
While the other major Florida cities have cranes, cranes, and more cranes gracing their downtown skies, along with towers reaching the skies under construction, proposed and on the drawing boards, Jax's big news for its downtown is implosion, explosions, and empty parking lots with a boarded up downtown at night after 5 o'clock. Even Sarasota, a city of 60,000, has several new towers proposed and under construction which I can count on four hands. When is this madness going to stop? Probably never. Shad Khan won't put up with this for too much longer either. I see the Jags, and I hope I am wrong, up and moving to Orlando one day. Orlando is on the move. Miami and Tampa are popping big time and have pro football teams in vibrant and "on the move cities" and their downtowns are burgeoning; Jax just keeps regressing, with no reason for it, thanks to City Leaders, to even have a national professional football team. I hope something changes soon.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2019, 07:49:01 PM
I don’t get it at all. It hurts nothing to issue an RFP with the site as is.

Maybe the best proposal is a demolition of the Landing. If so then fine. Personally, I’m indifferent to keeping the building. I just think the vacant lot thing makes no sense.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: KenFSU on April 30, 2019, 08:09:34 PM
Staggering amount of horseshit on display here.

Amazing that for every step forward the private sector makes downtown, the city comes along and finds a way to take two giant leaps back.

It would almost be funny if it wasn't so fucking sad.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Kerry on April 30, 2019, 11:31:09 PM
You guys know this all for the Jags right?  Lot J can be the only game in town and with no Lot J there is no Jags.

I was in Greenville, SC last week.  I wish I could move there right now.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on April 30, 2019, 11:42:55 PM
Minus the local media fluff pieces, Lot J is so insignificant in the grand scheme of things that redevelopment can be allowed to happen in other areas as well. We should be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: sanmarcomatt on May 01, 2019, 07:54:02 AM

I was in Greenville, SC last week.  I wish I could move there right now.

Just in case anyone needed an example of grooving a batting practice fastball over the heart of the plate. This is it.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: pierre on May 01, 2019, 08:41:38 AM
This quote is, at the same, hilarious and sad.


“To get public input is genuinely unnecessary because we’ve been there and done that.”
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 01, 2019, 08:51:59 AM
They could really use someone more polished and professionally educated with these types of issues to handle media.  Even if you're in and over your head, there are much better ways to promote your position.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: MusicMan on May 01, 2019, 09:17:16 AM
Who can be surprised? Curry isn't even a good accountant. He's a political hack without a creative bone in his body. Congratulations to Duval Republicans for bringing this disaster onto all of us.

Years. Years....before that sight ever again serves a useful purpose for the City.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Captain Zissou on May 01, 2019, 09:20:29 AM
They could really use someone more polished and professionally educated with these types of issues to handle media.  Even if you're in and over your head, there are much better ways to promote your position.

It seems like Brian Hughes is being groomed for a spot in the Trump administration.  That's the only other place I've seen this sort of arrogance and ignorance blended together in one sentence.  He's definitely cranked the stupid to 11.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: sanmarcomatt on May 01, 2019, 09:37:15 AM
Congratulations to Duval Republicans for bringing this disaster onto all of us.


and congratulations as well to the Duval Democrats(more registered last I checked) for their impressive contribution.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 01, 2019, 09:40:51 AM
A lot of the interview sounds like Hughes just moved to town and does not have a good historical background of the city or the charrette done when Alvin Brown was mayor:

This quote is, at the same, hilarious and sad.
“To get public input is genuinely unnecessary because we’ve been there and done that.”

Sleiman (who owned the building) proposed tearing it down and rebuilding a mixed-use project with a residential component and hotel. It wasn't a publicly owned facility where adaptive reuse was an option during the public engagement process. Here's Sleiman's 2013 plan:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-2JRtX3S/0/b815c672/X2/Landing%20Dec%2010%202013%20-%20Media_Page_16-X2.jpg)

The community went crazy with the surface parking lots along Independent Drive and a follow up rendering was released in 2014:

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Development/Jacksonville-Landing/i-8NwGwvk/0/1dc2a1be/M/Landing%20Proposal-2-M.jpg)

After this, COJ hired a design team to help shape a better layout for Sleiman's predetermined design criteria. Again, it was a privately owned development project and there was no opportunity to discuss the possibilities of adaptive reuse. The rendering produced by Wakefield Beasley below is what came out of the process.

(https://www.jacksonville.com/storyimage/LK/20150723/NEWS/801249887/AR/0/AR-801249887.jpg)

At the time, COJ would provide $12 million in incentives to prepare the site for redevelopment and the public space around the building sites. Sleiman was going to fund the construction of the buildings. During the entire public engagement process, the goal was a mixed-use project that would make the area just as vibrant as Pikes Place Market in Seattle and River Street in Savannah. Here's a quote from the 2014 presentation:

Quote
Members of the Jacksonville community participated in a planning workshop last month with the goal of identifying improvements that would enhance The Jacksonville Landing to make it the centerpiece of the city’s waterfront experience.

The workshop, “Making waves: realizing a world-class waterfront,” was held Dec. 9, at the Jacksonville Main Library. Mayor Alvin Brown kicked off the presentation with his thoughts on what an improved mixed-use Landing would mean for the city: “We want to make Downtown a signature destination for every opportunity. Can you see a 24-hour downtown Jacksonville?” Brown asked. “Critical to improving Downtown is The Landing. It has not met its full potential, and a new game plan for The Landing needs to focus on housing.”
JAX Chamber president Daniel Davis was equally as enthusiastic, saying “I am bullish about the future of Northeast Florida and Downtown. Let’s get the bulldozers going and make it happen.”

Echoing those sentiments was Downtown Investment Authority’s Aundra Wallace: “The goal is not to reinvent the wheel nor do we want a lengthy planning process.” Wallace showed images of successful downtown destinations, such as Baltimore’s Inner Harbor, Pike Place Market in Seattle, Chicago’s Navy Pier, and Savannah’s River Street, among
others.

Full article: https://residentnews.net/2014/01/07/jacksonville-landing-heading-makeover/

So we clearly had a process where a private development had been proposed and the public was allowed to help make that particular privately funded mixed-use development project fit better on a publicly owned site. That process was anything but true public engagement focused on evaluating all potential options for the space.

Now, read this recent quote and see how Hughes even butchered it:

Quote
Hughes said the DIA solicited expertise from a real estate consultant and design firm.

“If you look back at the minutes, more than 100 people came from the community to sit hours at a time in that public input," he said.

Hughes said the process resulted in a master plan for the Landing that was unveiled in 2015 by Wakefield Beasley & Associates (WBA) in collaboration with Urban Design Associates.  He said that study cost taxpayers $100,000. WBA has worked on other Jacksonville projects, including the St. Johns Town Center and  Adamec Harley-Davidson's Baymeadows location.

“If you look at Mayor Curry’s plan, as it was, as it unfolded last June, it’s exactly the same plan. So this is nothing new,” he said.

2015 WBA plan
(https://www.jacksonville.com/storyimage/LK/20150723/NEWS/801249887/AR/0/AR-801249887.jpg)


2015 WBA site plan (the white spaces represent where Sleiman's mixed-use apartment and hotel buildings would go)
(https://news.wjct.org/sites/wjct/files/styles/medium/public/201904/2015_landing_study_site-34.jpg)


Mayor's Office Plan
(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wjct/files/styles/large/public/201904/LandingParkRendering_0.png)


Lol, so nothing changed? We went from having a public engagement process where people thought we were getting a mixed-use riverfront development with interactive outdoor space and where the development costs, the future use and the developer were already known to a large passive lawn and two small undetermined blobs of where some undetermined use could be added at an undetermined time for an undetermined cost by an undetermined developer? The 2015 WBA plan even has restaurant buildings right on the river.

To add a little more fact to this story, it was the council who would not approve $12 million in city for incentives and then Brown not getting reelected a few months later or else we'd have a redeveloped waterfront space already open in the heart of downtown by now. So instead of $12 million being invested for the scene shown in the 2015 WBA renderings above, we're spending $22 million to not even get what's shown in the Mayor's Office unexciting front lawn sketch from last year.

You have to be a pure fool to accept this type of revisionist story telling at face value if you were around before 2015. Unbelievable!
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Tacachale on May 01, 2019, 09:59:21 AM
A lot of the interview sounds like Hughes just moved to town and does not have a good historical background of the city or the charrette done when Alvin Brown was mayor:

This quote is, at the same, hilarious and sad.
“To get public input is genuinely unnecessary because we’ve been there and done that.”

Hughes moved to Jacksonville in January 2018 (yes, really) to serve as the mayor's chief of staff. Previously he was a political consultant for Curry and other political candidates. He has no apparent background in urban development or management.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 01, 2019, 10:14:25 AM
If he moved to town that recent, then that would provide some important context to the wjct interview quotes. Quite frankly, you need to take the opinion of a newcomer with little background in urban development with a grain of salt when it comes to determining what's iconic locally and what you can and can't do with existing spaces. Better yet, we need to understand that public officials work for us, not the other way around.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: tufsu1 on May 01, 2019, 11:32:57 AM
While City Council chose to approve the Mayor's plans, they need to stand up now and not allow Hughes to become the Chief Administrative Officer. His background quals don't meet the minimum requirements developed by the Mayor & Council in 2015 - and to date has shown himself to be incapable of the job.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 01, 2019, 12:03:30 PM
We are in Trumpworld now, where facts and qualifications don't matter.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Kerry on May 01, 2019, 12:13:18 PM
We are in Trumpworld now, where facts and qualifications don't matter.

Jacksonville is in a world all by itself.  Every other city is moving on.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 01, 2019, 12:22:55 PM
^When it comes to DT, unfortunately you may be right.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Snaketoz on May 01, 2019, 01:34:05 PM
If you really care about Jacksonville, VOTE.  Vote against the Currys and all of his rubberstamp hacks on the City Council.  Please vote against Tommy Hazouri, Dem, who will OK everything Curry proposes to further his political life.  The "Dem." after Hazouri's name means nothing.  He is only a Curry clone.  Vote for Rachal.  He may listen to reason.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Downtown Osprey on May 01, 2019, 01:38:02 PM
This might take the cake as the most frustrating thing I've seen on this board (and that's really saying something). I honestly cannot wrap my head around why they think this is the best route to go. Money down the drain with no solid plan in place. Jacksonville, it's easier here! 
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Captain Zissou on May 01, 2019, 02:14:50 PM
My mother refuses to vote for Hazouri solely based on party affiliation, and I doubt she's alone.  Do we know that his opponent will stand up against Curry?  If so, can't wait to check that box!
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: MikeG1479 on May 01, 2019, 02:20:36 PM
MusicMan - Because Alvin Brown was such a better mayor for the City of Jacksonville.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Tacachale on May 01, 2019, 02:23:50 PM
MusicMan - Because Alvin Brown was such a better mayor for the City of Jacksonville.

Brown wasn't an effective mayor. But even his last plan for the Landing cost half as much as Curry's, and featured new buildings instead of a lot.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 01, 2019, 02:28:00 PM
His website says absolutely nothing about his positions.

From the WJCT summary of Rachal's interview on First Coast Connect
Quote
As for why he’s challenging Hazouri, Rachal said the city need a new perspective when it comes to getting things done. Asked whether he’d vote against the priorities of Mayor Lenny Curry, Rachal said, “When two people always agree, one person is not needed,” and he doesn’t mind “standing alone.”


Rachal also said he believes it would be better to repurpose The Jacksonville Landing instead of demolishing it, and that JEA is an asset and “you don’t sell assets.”

Hmmm
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 01, 2019, 03:00:37 PM
MusicMan - Because Alvin Brown was such a better mayor for the City of Jacksonville.

Brown wasn't an effective mayor. But even his last plan for the Landing cost half as much as Curry's, and featured new buildings instead of a lot.
Nearly 50% cheaper for the taxpayer and that number included an $8.5 million interactive park space and would have been completed two or three years ago if council would have included it in the 2015 budget. Brown did not have the best run administration but part of his problems definitely were related to partisan politics at the local level.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 01, 2019, 04:53:32 PM
COJ took over today. The remaining tenants have been told to vacate within 30 days. Sounds like they're really getting some relocation help....

Full article: https://www.news4jax.com/news/city-gives-jacksonville-landing-tenants-30-days-to-get-out
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: DrQue on May 01, 2019, 05:16:35 PM
Absurdity runs thick through downtown Jacksonville.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: mtraininjax on May 01, 2019, 05:21:01 PM
Quote
Absurdity runs thick through downtown Jacksonville.

Nothing smacks you with Absurdity like a trip over Paul Crawford's ROUGH ROAD and your next trip to the dentist....
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Bill Hoff on May 01, 2019, 05:51:30 PM
The Mayor stated (via social media) that a RFP would issued after demolition.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: marcuscnelson on May 01, 2019, 07:24:56 PM
The Mayor stated (via social media) that a RFP would issued after demolition.

Of course, because no one deserves a chance at adaptive reuse for the Landing.

Can't wait to watch this fizzle into nothing or turn out in bad faith like the Convention Center.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Todd_Parker on May 01, 2019, 07:46:41 PM
The Mayor stated (via social media) that a RFP would issued after demolition.


and the RFP will result in 2 responses - both being cost prohibitive to the city.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Kerry on May 01, 2019, 09:46:44 PM
The Mayor stated (via social media) that a RFP would issued after demolition.


and the RFP will result in 2 responses - both being cost prohibitive to the city.

You can take that prediction to the bank.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 02, 2019, 08:43:13 AM
COJ took over today. The remaining tenants have been told to vacate within 30 days. Sounds like they're really getting some relocation help....

Full article: https://www.news4jax.com/news/city-gives-jacksonville-landing-tenants-30-days-to-get-out

As we said months ago in response to Brian Hughes claiming they'd work to relocate tenants downtown, that's not as feasible as people think. A big reason for adaptive reuse deals with being able to have a turn key commercial space that can be leased at lower rates to local businesses. Obviously, tenants (the majority of them local and minority owned small businesses) have been led in the dark by management and COJ and are now on the verge of losing it all. They can't afford rents in other places. It's become pretty disgusting to see some of the political cheerleaders and elitist in this town speak about how the place is a dump and they can't wait to see a vacant lot, while hundreds of Jaxsons are either losing their jobs or at risk of losing their businesses. Seriously, what has Coastal Cookies ever done to someone that their ok with them being bounced out with no place or equipment to set up after successfully operating there for 32 years?

Quote
Tenants in limbo as Landing nears last days

Rhoades-Jones did not think the eviction was going to happen this quickly. She hasn't had time yet to find a new space for her business.

"They just want to get us out as soon as possible," she said. "You can't penalize me just because (the property) was under litigation."

Rhoades-Jones is not alone in not knowing what to do next.

Although the Downtown Investment Authority recently sent each tenant a package with information on available spaces downtown, several said that they could only afford the lower rents at the Landing — not the average $19 a square foot they've seen elsewhere in the urban core. While some tenants have begun searching for space in suburban markets, this process can take months.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2019/05/01/landing-tenants-in-limbo-as-landing-nears-last.html

This is the type of stuff we saw coming that's a direct result of having people in and over their heads making unilaterally moves with significant public assets.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Captain Zissou on May 02, 2019, 09:39:10 AM
and the RFP will result in 2 responses - both being cost prohibitive to the city.

You can take that prediction to the bank.

The bank is slated for demolition next month. 
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Bill Hoff on May 02, 2019, 12:31:08 PM
Arbus & architects: don't demolish without a viable plan.

Story:
http://arbus.com/a-choice-for-jacksonville/
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 02, 2019, 12:52:26 PM
I must say.....while I have been very negative about COJ's puzzling moves in downtown lately, I have been impressed by those in the community that are speaking up and offering different ideas and calling for common sense to be allowed to enter the discussion. In the long run, Jax will be better as a result of having residents that are active, educated and engaged.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Tacachale on May 02, 2019, 12:54:50 PM
I must say.....while I have been very negative about COJ's puzzling moves in downtown lately, I have been impressed by those in the community that are speaking up and offering different ideas and calling for common sense to be allowed to enter the discussion. In the long run, Jax will be better as a result of having residents that are active, educated and engaged.

I agree 100%. Folks are starting to see the destructive pattern for what it is, and are increasingly comfortable speaking their mind.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Kerry on May 02, 2019, 12:56:35 PM
Arbus & architects: don't demolish with a viable plan.

Story:
http://arbus.com/a-choice-for-jacksonville/

I like the "without a plan any success is just dumb luck" quote.  If stupudity was the key Jax would have more success than we would know what to do with.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: downtownbrown on May 02, 2019, 02:24:57 PM
I must say.....while I have been very negative about COJ's puzzling moves in downtown lately, I have been impressed by those in the community that are speaking up and offering different ideas and calling for common sense to be allowed to enter the discussion. In the long run, Jax will be better as a result of having residents that are active, educated and engaged.

To the extent that this new interest is a precursor to actual market activity, I agree it's very positive.  My theory is that the vast majority of Duval residents have never been downtown, except for maybe a football game.  If there is a growing sense (probably among younger millennials), that having an actual downtown would be cool, then things will happen, a tiny bit at a time....
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: KenFSU on May 02, 2019, 02:30:12 PM
Add another $370k to the tally/bonfire.

Quote
The Mayor’s Budget Review Committee last week approved moving $370,000 from other city fund accounts to the Landing for basic operating costs.

“We will need some (money) for a short time to keep certain components operational at the Landing when we become the landlords … while we own it and until we evict all the tenants,” said Sam Mousa, the city’s chief administrative officer who will retire at the end of June, to be succeeded by Hughes.

Mousa told committee members that “once we demolish it,” the city will no longer need the operational money for the Landing.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-landing-tenants-receive-eviction-notices-ponder-future
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: vicupstate on May 02, 2019, 02:35:04 PM
Quote
If there is a growing sense (probably among younger millennials), that having an actual downtown would be cool, then things will happen, a tiny bit at a time....

Do you realize that every other city has already started down that path?    Twenty years ago!
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 02, 2019, 02:39:52 PM
It happened in Jax decades ago too. They've been iced out of downtown for the most part and jerked around by many of the heavily questionable gimmick projects and ideas promoted over the years. Half of the business owners in places like Five Points, Springfield, King Street, CoRK and the Rail Yard District were all interested or have tried to find spots unsuccessfully in downtown.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 02, 2019, 03:00:47 PM
Totally unrealistic to expect a small business to be able to afford the difference in rent. This isn't real relocation assistance. Unless the DIA is going to fill in the significant financial gaps (which isn't going to happen), I agree that most will either close or relocate from downtown.

Quote
The Downtown Investment Authority has provided tenants with a list of 15 Downtown properties with rental space available from $16 to $24.75 per square foot per year. That would be a significant increase, considering The Art Center is paying $2 to $3 per square foot.

“When we looked at the packet, the preponderance of the commercially available space listed on that packets are at $18 to $22 per square foot, which is roughly nine times what we’re paying now, Malesky told the DIA at its April board meeting.

“That is not something we can absorb,” he said, citing the center's nonprofit status.

Malesky said he is convinced that without assistance, many of the Landing businesses will leave Downtown or close.

Full article: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/jacksonville-landing-tenants-receive-eviction-notices-ponder-future
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Charles Hunter on May 04, 2019, 02:12:40 PM
Are any Federal funds involved in the acquisition of the Landing?  If so, it seems the much more stringent Federal Relocation Assistance rules would apply.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 04, 2019, 03:41:06 PM
Evidently, COJ/DIA has already turned the Landing's parking lot into a monthly permit only parking lot. Guess, they are trying to hurt the remaining small businesses (that didn't close from their antics over the last year) to get out faster. Kind of sad to see fat cats making six figure salaries on the public dime to treat taxpayers and small businesses this way.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Bativac on May 05, 2019, 02:33:45 PM
If there is a growing sense (probably among younger millennials), that having an actual downtown would be cool, then things will happen, a tiny bit at a time....

Any millennials interested in an actual downtown are not moving to Jacksonville. The ones moving there are doing so due to low cost of living and cheap housing. Downtown is kind of an interesting novelty to them. The ones of us who leave are in search of more vibrancy (and less humidity but that's not the city's fault) and are willing to pay for it.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: bl8jaxnative on May 05, 2019, 03:10:36 PM
Evidently, COJ/DIA has already turned the Landing's parking lot into a monthly permit only parking lot. Guess, they are trying to hurt the remaining small businesses (that didn't close from their antics over the last year) to get out faster. Kind of sad to see fat cats making six figure salaries on the public dime to treat taxpayers and small businesses this way.
|

The businesses have 1 month to vacate.  This parking lot thing isn't a ploy to force them to leave.  They will be leaving.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 05, 2019, 03:46:23 PM
A couple have a few months. What's the rush with limiting their customers access or their ability to move out efficiently?
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: tufsu1 on May 05, 2019, 06:50:04 PM
Evidently, COJ/DIA has already turned the Landing's parking lot into a monthly permit only parking lot. Guess, they are trying to hurt the remaining small businesses (that didn't close from their antics over the last year) to get out faster. Kind of sad to see fat cats making six figure salaries on the public dime to treat taxpayers and small businesses this way.
|

The businesses have 1 month to vacate.  This parking lot thing isn't a ploy to force them to leave.  They will be leaving.

Several tenants met with CM Gaffney the other day - he offered to assist with possibly getting extensions on their evictions
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 06, 2019, 04:25:02 PM
Sounds like the buyout/relocation assistance and demolition costs will be higher than originally stated:

Quote
Fionn MacCool’s Irish Pub and Restaurant, Hooters would take more than a third of $1.5 million the City Council allocated to relocate, settle leases with tenants.

Quote
“The $1.5 million referenced in the legislation (for demolition of the Landing) was approximated based on an estimate provided by a demolition expert – to give the city an idea of the cost,” Elsbury told Boyer. “Currently, there is not site work related to preparing pads for development, it is simply clearing the site.”

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-says-it-could-cost-dollar590-000-to-terminate-leases-for-two-restaurants-at-the-jacksonville-landing
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: KenFSU on May 06, 2019, 04:33:24 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/YJjvTqoRFgZaM/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Steve on May 07, 2019, 08:19:12 AM
Sounds like the buyout/relocation assistance and demolition costs will be higher than originally stated:

Quote
Fionn MacCool’s Irish Pub and Restaurant, Hooters would take more than a third of $1.5 million the City Council allocated to relocate, settle leases with tenants.

Quote
“The $1.5 million referenced in the legislation (for demolition of the Landing) was approximated based on an estimate provided by a demolition expert – to give the city an idea of the cost,” Elsbury told Boyer. “Currently, there is not site work related to preparing pads for development, it is simply clearing the site.”

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-says-it-could-cost-dollar590-000-to-terminate-leases-for-two-restaurants-at-the-jacksonville-landing

Shocking.

Remind me again why we didn’t just issue an RFP for the property as-is? It would solve so many things, and it wouldn’t stop a developer from proposing a tear down and rebuild?

Oh yea, I said that before. So have 17482645 other people.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Kerry on May 07, 2019, 08:49:27 AM
The answer is still the same - Lot J.  Without it the Jags leave town.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Steve on May 07, 2019, 09:50:13 AM
The answer is still the same - Lot J.  Without it the Jags leave town.

Regardless of that...do you honestly think that Lot J, even if fully developed, would become unsustainable if the Landing was redeveloped into something truly amazing?

There’s 1.5 million in the metro area. Lot J isn’t going to compete, it would compliment.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: KenFSU on May 07, 2019, 10:57:29 AM
The answer is still the same - Lot J.  Without it the Jags leave town.

Regardless of that...do you honestly think that Lot J, even if fully developed, would become unsustainable if the Landing was redeveloped into something truly amazing?

There’s 1.5 million in the metro area. Lot J isn’t going to compete, it would compliment.

Really the only area that they're destined to compete in is events, both civic and commercial.

The Landing has historically been home base for everything from political rallies, to 4th of July and News Years celebrations, to the tree lighting and boat parade, to Florida/Georgia weekend, etc.

Many businesses at the Landing have said over the years that these events provide a huge portion of their annual revenue and allow them to be sustainable for the rest of the year, and the surrounding businesses have also seen a lot of residual impact.

I think whichever developement/space the Landing's previous events end up getting relocated to will have a natural, but certainly not insurmountable, advantage.

Otherwise, agree that there's plenty of room for both to be successful.

They're a mile and a half apart, and realistically serve different audiences (the CBD and northbank residents vs. the transient sports complex crowd).

While the downtown core continues to add more multifamily and workforce housing, I think future development of the Shipyards area beyond Lot J is going to end up being similar to Power & Light over the next decade, in that it will largely be additional luxury residential (see: One Light, Two Light, Three Light) propped up by bloated tax abatements.

I think bulldozing the Landing is its own horrifying mistake that we've all beaten to death and should continue to beat to death until the last minute, but to me, I think the only way you could prove that the decision was driven by development at the sports complex would be if the city attempted to use Curry's Landing park plan to statisfy a land swap with Metro Park.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Kerry on May 07, 2019, 11:12:36 AM
The answer is still the same - Lot J.  Without it the Jags leave town.

Regardless of that...do you honestly think that Lot J, even if fully developed, would become unsustainable if the Landing was redeveloped into something truly amazing?

There’s 1.5 million in the metro area. Lot J isn’t going to compete, it would compliment.

I think Lot J is going to be a monumental failure regardless of anything (or in our case 'nothing') happening downtown.  The Jags can't even run a football and they sure as hell aren't urban developers.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Steve on May 07, 2019, 11:25:57 AM
The answer is still the same - Lot J.  Without it the Jags leave town.

Regardless of that...do you honestly think that Lot J, even if fully developed, would become unsustainable if the Landing was redeveloped into something truly amazing?

There’s 1.5 million in the metro area. Lot J isn’t going to compete, it would compliment.

I think Lot J is going to be a monumental failure regardless of anything (or in our case 'nothing') happening downtown.  The Jags can't even run a football and they sure as hell aren't urban developers.

Maybe it will be a failure, maybe it won’t. But, either way it won’t compete with the Landing
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: KenFSU on May 07, 2019, 11:47:38 AM
^Depends on your definition of "monumental failure."

For the Jags/Cordish, no chance.

Their typical development agreements virtually guarantee an ROI.

For the city of Jacksonville, TBD, but it depends on the objective.

The Power & Light District has been very popular, but hasn't generated nearly the revenues that Kansas City projected, forcing them to refinance their bond payments and steal $10 million from the general fund every year just to service their debts for the project (https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article9530081.html).

That said, for KC, the objective was to catalyze downtown redevelopment, and even though it came at a hefty price to taxpayers, I think Power & Light has been a success on that front. There are cranes everywhere in Downtown KC, and the entire area has exploded on the back of Power & Light.

For Jacksonville, Lot J/Shipyards is also going to be very expensive.

If, as a city, our leading priority is to enhance the sports district and finally open up the Shipyards to development, then yes, the project can certainly be successful in achieving that goal.

But if our main objective is to catalyze downtown Jacksonville, then we're clearly much better off dumping that money into something else closer to the CBD.

All comes back to opportunity cost, master planning, and having faith in our city leaders to set the right high-level goals and prioritize the projects best suited to achieve them.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 07, 2019, 11:57:30 AM
While the downtown core continues to add more multifamily and workforce housing, I think future development of the Shipyards area beyond Lot J is going to end up being similar to Power & Light over the next decade, in that it will largely be additional luxury residential (see: One Light, Two Light, Three Light) propped up by bloated tax abatements.

I do agree that the market is big enough to support development at the Landing site and Lot J since it is much smaller than originally discussed and envisioned. Unfortunately, I don't see Lot J being anything like the Power & Light District. The context is totally different. The Power & Light District is situated like a glove between Downtown Kansas City and the Crossroads Art District, creating a seamless transition between two vibrant older pedestrian scale urban districts. At best....for a few decades, Lot J is Xfinity Live or Patriot's Place in Foxboro.

Quote
I think bulldozing the Landing is its own horrifying mistake that we've all beaten to death and should continue to beat to death until the last minute, but to me, I think the only way you could prove that the decision was driven by development at the sports complex would be if the city attempted to use Curry's Landing park plan to statisfy a land swap with Metro Park.

I also question the park swap thing. The Landing site is roughly 7 acres. Metropolitan Park is like three times the size of it. If finding land for a land swap is real, we'd need a hell of a lot more land and COJ would angling to turn the East Lot into green space instead of trying to profit by making it a monthly permit waterfront surface parking lot.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 07, 2019, 12:01:40 PM
That said, for KC, the objective was to catalyze downtown redevelopment, and even though it came at a hefty price to taxpayers, I think Power & Light has been a success on that front. There are cranes everywhere in Downtown KC, and the entire area has exploded on the back of Power & Light.

I wonder if this narrative is more self promotional story-telling than anything else. I'm on the road a lot these days. Quite frankly, there are cranes all over the place in several major markets Jax likes to compare itself too. I get the impression, the cranes have more to do with national urban revitalization trends and the culmination of two decades worth of decent urban infill and investment moreso than Cordish's development being the major catalyst.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: vicupstate on May 07, 2019, 01:00:29 PM
The answer is still the same - Lot J.  Without it the Jags leave town.

Regardless of that...do you honestly think that Lot J, even if fully developed, would become unsustainable if the Landing was redeveloped into something truly amazing?

There’s 1.5 million in the metro area. Lot J isn’t going to compete, it would compliment.

Really the only area that they're destined to compete in is events, both civic and commercial.

The Landing has historically been home base for everything from political rallies, to 4th of July and News Years celebrations, to the tree lighting and boat parade, to Florida/Georgia weekend, etc.

Many businesses at the Landing have said over the years that these events provide a huge portion of their annual revenue and allow them to be sustainable for the rest of the year, and the surrounding businesses have also seen a lot of residual impact.

I think whichever developement/space the Landing's previous events end up getting relocated to will have a natural, but certainly not insurmountable, advantage.

Otherwise, agree that there's plenty of room for both to be successful.

They're a mile and a half apart, and realistically serve different audiences (the CBD and northbank residents vs. the transient sports complex crowd).


I think you directly contradict yourself here. On one hand you say those events have been crucial to the Landing's survival yet you say with those events gone, the Landing (or what might replace it) can still prosper.  I don't see the Landing and Lot J serving different audiences at all. There aren't enough residences on the Northbank to support a Dollar General, much less a significant development. People drive to the Landign for those events and with Lot J built, they will drive there INSTEAD.   
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 07, 2019, 01:30:37 PM
There is a Family Dollar that opened on State and Union a couple of years ago. My guess is like the new retail in Brooklyn, it pulls its customer base from traffic not necessarily related specifically to downtown and the Northbank. IMO, the DT retail narrative needs to be reframed. Most DTs of Jax's scale can't support a significant amount of retail off their residential population alone. Their primary retail streets tend to be corridors where retail can survive from other nearby neighborhoods, through traffic and clustering of other uses like office employment density and hotels. If Jax had a DT vision plan that addressed retail, streets like State and Union, Broad, Riverside Ave, Main Street, etc. would be looked at differently.

Whether the Landing and Lot J compete or compliment each other depends on the future use of the Landing site. If that use is the same old entertainment oriented plan, then they would compete. If we're talking about filling the Landing site with a mix of locally specific uses like a visitors center, museums, food hall, public market, some restaurant and select retail space, then they'd complement because Lot J isn't going to be anything like that. It's going to be this:

https://m.xfinitylive.com/home

^Something niche that won't appeal to all segments of the local population.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Steve on May 09, 2019, 12:02:45 PM
Damn the Torpedoes, full speed ahead!

Quote
The city of Jacksonville now has complete ownership of The Jacksonville Landing and all but three of the tenants have until June 1 to move out of the riverfront shopping mall.

Negotiations are underway with BBVA Compass bank, Hooters Restaurant and Fionn MacCool’s Irish Pub and Restaurant for their departure.

Despite demolition detractors, Mayor Lenny Curry and City Council legislation enacted March 26 have given the go-ahead to the city’s Department of Public Works to demolish the structure in favor of a more open, active riverfront development.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-mendenhall-report-whats-next-with-the-landing-demolition
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 09, 2019, 12:05:12 PM
Fixed it for you....

Quote
The city of Jacksonville now has complete ownership of The Jacksonville Landing and all but three of the tenants have until June 1 to move out of the riverfront shopping mall.

Negotiations are underway with BBVA Compass bank, Hooters Restaurant and Fionn MacCool’s Irish Pub and Restaurant for their departure.

Despite demolition detractors, Mayor Lenny Curry and City Council legislation enacted March 26 have given the go-ahead to the city’s Department of Public Works to demolish the structure in favor of a more open, active riverfront development.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/the-mendenhall-report-whats-next-with-the-landing-demolition

Who wants Coastal Cookies, Hooters and Fionns when you can have this!

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Downtown-Vacant-Lots/i-W3MmTBP/0/7d48e361/L/20190504_132254-L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Cities/Jacksonville/Neighborhoods/Downtown-Vacant-Lots/i-TVHt3Rq/0/12dd7875/L/20190504_130313-L.jpg)

Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: itsfantastic1 on May 09, 2019, 12:44:48 PM
I'm confused by several things from the article:

Quote
A DIA board, appointed by former Mayor Alvin Brown, who served from 2011-15, undertook a $100,000 design process with Atlanta-based Wakefield Beasley & Associates and Urban Design Associates that incorporated six public input sessions.

Lawsuits with former Landing owner Jacksonville Landing Investments Landing LLC stopped the public unveiling of the final plan.

Hughes has since released the 2015 development renderings to prove to incoming council member Matt Carlucci and other critics that a public charrette process on Landing redevelopment already has been done.

Did the DIA have public sessions that had public input back when Slieman owned it? If the design is released, how in the world would that force a private business to build exactly that? It sounds like something is going on behind the scenes that we just aren't being told. It seems like they don't want public input because the plans from 2015 are what has been worked one with a different developer out of public view. Potentially very shady and unethical, but this is a tad better than the "we are just tearing this down for hope of development"

Quote
Both the more detailed 2015 design and the simplified Public Works sketch released last year show the same concept — two bifurcated developable pads with activated green space.

“The discussion points are about how much green, how much hardscape, how many trees, where is the art, how big are the pads that are developable (and) what are the economics behind that,” Hughes said.

Despite Curry's and the 2015 design barely being related (at least from what is presented publicly), it sounds like the city is going to demolish everything, make certain parts of the land privately owned/developable and keep the rest as a park/landscaping decorations for the private lands. In a vacuum, wouldn't this be part of good urban design?
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 09, 2019, 02:21:25 PM
I'm confused by several things from the article:

Quote
A DIA board, appointed by former Mayor Alvin Brown, who served from 2011-15, undertook a $100,000 design process with Atlanta-based Wakefield Beasley & Associates and Urban Design Associates that incorporated six public input sessions.

Lawsuits with former Landing owner Jacksonville Landing Investments Landing LLC stopped the public unveiling of the final plan.

Hughes has since released the 2015 development renderings to prove to incoming council member Matt Carlucci and other critics that a public charrette process on Landing redevelopment already has been done.

Did the DIA have public sessions that had public input back when Slieman owned it? If the design is released, how in the world would that force a private business to build exactly that? It sounds like something is going on behind the scenes that we just aren't being told. It seems like they don't want public input because the plans from 2015 are what has been worked one with a different developer out of public view. Potentially very shady and unethical, but this is a tad better than the "we are just tearing this down for hope of development"

Basically, the historical storytelling from Hughes and Curry about the 2015 charrette process is a bunch of baloney. At the time, Sleiman owned the Landing and had proposed redeveloping with a specific type of uses. What's shown is what he wanted. The charrette focused on making the uses he wanted fit better on the site. Now that COJ owns the site, you don't necessarily have to start off with razing the place to for an apartment complex or hotel. Perhaps a food hall, public market or visitors center integrated into an interactive public space makes more sense. Unfortunately, we may never know.


Quote
Quote
Both the more detailed 2015 design and the simplified Public Works sketch released last year show the same concept — two bifurcated developable pads with activated green space.

“The discussion points are about how much green, how much hardscape, how many trees, where is the art, how big are the pads that are developable (and) what are the economics behind that,” Hughes said.

Despite Curry's and the 2015 design barely being related (at least from what is presented publicly), it sounds like the city is going to demolish everything, make certain parts of the land privately owned/developable and keep the rest as a park/landscaping decorations for the private lands. In a vacuum, wouldn't this be part of good urban design?

1. They don't show the same thing. The 2015 example is an actual project, that had a real developer, a real cost and a real construction timeline. It's also a space that is specifically designed to attract a mix of people during the day, at night and on weekends. The Curry sketch is the complete opposite. The two smaller blobs aren't real buildings/projects and the park itself isn't interactive. Instead, it's a passive lawn.  Full developed, they'd resemble these two scenes:

2015 - This plan was basically a smaller version of DC's National Harbor:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-fbMf3Lz/0/0bea5fa2/X2/Landing-National%20Harbor%20-2-X2.jpg)

2018 - The Curry plan is basically what Daytona Beach has along the Halifax River just north of US 92:
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-fSnGZzB/0/7f7e2dfc/X2/Landing-National%20Harbor%20-1-X2.jpg)

Which one do you think would attract more people at night and on weekends?


Quote
Despite Curry's and the 2015 design barely being related (at least from what is presented publicly), it sounds like the city is going to demolish everything, make certain parts of the land privately owned/developable and keep the rest as a park/landscaping decorations for the private lands. In a vacuum, wouldn't this be part of good urban design?

In a vacuum, it's a good sound bite. That's about it. Outside of spending millions to tear down an active structure (admittedly mismanaged), you have no assurances of anything happening anytime soon. The city doesn't have a plan beyond demolition or funding committed to even make it a park. As such, we're more than likely looking at a Shipyards site part 2. This makes the process...bad urban planning considering the Northbank needs a vibrant interactive anchor at that site now and not maybe 10 or 20 years down the road. You have some things already happening like the Trio, VyStar and Hyatt Place investing in the immediate area. Smart urban planning would involve quickly stimulating this site to dramatically change the vibrancy of this core area overnight.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: tufsu1 on May 09, 2019, 10:36:48 PM
I think bulldozing the Landing is its own horrifying mistake that we've all beaten to death and should continue to beat to death until the last minute, but to me, I think the only way you could prove that the decision was driven by development at the sports complex would be if the city attempted to use Curry's Landing park plan to statisfy a land swap with Metro Park.

ding ding ding - we have a winner!
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Kerry on May 10, 2019, 11:04:29 AM
That said, for KC, the objective was to catalyze downtown redevelopment, and even though it came at a hefty price to taxpayers, I think Power & Light has been a success on that front. There are cranes everywhere in Downtown KC, and the entire area has exploded on the back of Power & Light.

I wonder if this narrative is more self promotional story-telling than anything else. I'm on the road a lot these days. Quite frankly, there are cranes all over the place in several major markets Jax likes to compare itself too. I get the impression, the cranes have more to do with national urban revitalization trends and the culmination of two decades worth of decent urban infill and investment moreso than Cordish's development being the major catalyst.

This!

Power and Light in KC, Blue Dome in Tulsa, Bricktown in OKC, Old Town in Wichita, and 20 places areound downtown Dallas are all just part of the reurbanization if America's cuties.  They weren't magic bullet catalists that spawned anything - they are the result, not the cause.

This is where Jax leadership and the Jags fail by not understanding how these things came to be in the first place.  They think we can just by-pass the 20 year process and build the end product.  It doesn't work that way.  It is the same reason new Chinese city are uninhabited.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: bl8jaxnative on May 15, 2019, 10:28:27 AM
Keep in mind that history is written by the victor.   We've got a bit of that going on in these situations.   The area is a success so people talk about it.  Because people talk about it, more know that it's a success.  The more they know, the more they talk about it, et al. 

Of course those politicians behind it take part it in.  They want to claim success.  And they do deserve some accolades. 

I don't mean to disparage it all.

Just keep in mind that in a lot of cases these areas were already turning around.   That area between the CBD and the old Union Station was already rebounding.  Some would argue it was never that bad.   Whatever exactly it was, it wasn't hell's kitchen or Cabrini green.  It wasn't great but not horrible.

Some of the reason the Kemp Center built there was location, next to the CBD, and some was that there were already improvements and momentum.  The same with the power and light formal district.

There's some chicken and egg stuff going on.  Some of the decision makers are just following the money and momentum.  And then some of the momentum and the money follows the decisions.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: bl8jaxnative on May 15, 2019, 10:34:43 AM

And don't forget, this is all swinging for the fences, going for home runs on #KCMO's part.  The city's sunk hundreds of millions into the neighborhood. 

Not amazingly when you spend big money, on occasion you'll hit a home run.  That home run though right now is costing KC taxpayers more than $15M each and every year. 

Maybe in the end it'll pay off.  They've got at least one shiny new condo building on the skyline that's come out of it.  But we wouldn't be talking about it so much if they had made a big gamble and it failed.     

And for those keen on Strongtown's, you know what they have to say about these big gamle's like KC's power and light district.
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Steve on May 24, 2019, 09:39:10 AM
Wow, even the COJ doesn't really care about doing this right:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/lack-of-jacksonville-landing-asbestos-survey-surprises-demolition-contractors

Quote
In a mandatory prebid meeting at 10 a.m. in the Ed Ball Building, Landing project engineer Nikita Reed told contractors the selected bidder would be responsible for providing the survey from a licensed, accredited asbestos professional.

Reed said an environmental site assessment was conducted on the Landing property prior to the release of the Landing demolition specifications last week.

“You should assume that you will have to determine if any asbestos or any other hazardous material — any lead paint, anything like that” is at the site, Reed said.

“We did not do a full environmental survey for the hazardous materials.”

One contractor in the packed boardroom said it’s atypical for contractors to perform their own asbestos surveys before demolition and is usually is the role of the building owner.

“It’s collusion,” another contractor said. “I could pay someone I know to say, ‘Hey, give me a clean report,’ versus an independent third party that’s neutral.”
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Tacachale on May 24, 2019, 10:48:05 AM
Wow, even the COJ doesn't really care about doing this right:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/lack-of-jacksonville-landing-asbestos-survey-surprises-demolition-contractors

Quote
In a mandatory prebid meeting at 10 a.m. in the Ed Ball Building, Landing project engineer Nikita Reed told contractors the selected bidder would be responsible for providing the survey from a licensed, accredited asbestos professional.

Reed said an environmental site assessment was conducted on the Landing property prior to the release of the Landing demolition specifications last week.

“You should assume that you will have to determine if any asbestos or any other hazardous material — any lead paint, anything like that” is at the site, Reed said.

“We did not do a full environmental survey for the hazardous materials.”

One contractor in the packed boardroom said it’s atypical for contractors to perform their own asbestos surveys before demolition and is usually is the role of the building owner.

“It’s collusion,” another contractor said. “I could pay someone I know to say, ‘Hey, give me a clean report,’ versus an independent third party that’s neutral.”

Something is rotten in the city of Jacksonville...
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: itsfantastic1 on May 24, 2019, 10:57:56 AM
It'd be hilarious if all the demo companies decided all these phased demo restrictions and shady dealings weren't worth it. Obviously someone will, but it'd be great if even the demo companies wanted nothing to do with this poorly thought out rush job.

I'd like to imagine Lenny Curry and Brian Hughes would then grab sledge hammers and do it themselves...
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: Bill Hoff on May 24, 2019, 03:16:02 PM
Wow, even the COJ doesn't really care about doing this right:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/lack-of-jacksonville-landing-asbestos-survey-surprises-demolition-contractors

Quote
In a mandatory prebid meeting at 10 a.m. in the Ed Ball Building, Landing project engineer Nikita Reed told contractors the selected bidder would be responsible for providing the survey from a licensed, accredited asbestos professional.

Reed said an environmental site assessment was conducted on the Landing property prior to the release of the Landing demolition specifications last week.

“You should assume that you will have to determine if any asbestos or any other hazardous material — any lead paint, anything like that” is at the site, Reed said.

“We did not do a full environmental survey for the hazardous materials.”

One contractor in the packed boardroom said it’s atypical for contractors to perform their own asbestos surveys before demolition and is usually is the role of the building owner.

“It’s collusion,” another contractor said. “I could pay someone I know to say, ‘Hey, give me a clean report,’ versus an independent third party that’s neutral.”

Something is rotten in the city of Jacksonville...

You don't understand! Time is of the essence! Damn the required "environmental surveys" and such. That's just a stalling tactic for liberals who hate men of action! This building needs to be torn down ASAP! My God man, it's OUT OF DATE! IT! Can't you see the urgency!?!? DEMO NOW OR ELSE!*



*else = time for a rationale process

Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: thelakelander on May 24, 2019, 03:44:52 PM
#winning
Title: Re: Mayors Office: It's Time To Move Forward With Demolishing Landing
Post by: avonjax on May 28, 2019, 05:13:30 PM
Can someone, anyone tell me why Curry is so dead set on demolishing the Landing? His legacy will be harsh when his butt leaves office. None of this makes sense to me.