The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => The Burbs => Southside => Topic started by: KenFSU on March 18, 2019, 12:01:51 PM

Title: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: KenFSU on March 18, 2019, 12:01:51 PM
https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/atlanta-developer-shares-vision-for-dollar300-million-village-center-at-i-295-butler

Gotta say, it looks pretty epic.

Wish we saw the same level of development in the core that we're seeing in the Town Center area, but happy to see dollars pumped into our city by outside developers.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Tacachale on March 18, 2019, 12:09:19 PM
Epic LOL at this:

Quote

Imagine historic San Marco Square – but larger – dropped into a signature Southside property.

...

“We superimposed the San Marco retail district to get that feel and we tweaked it to fit our project,” Fuqua said Friday.


So it's like San Marco Square, just surrounded by surface parking instead of a neighborhood?
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: dp8541 on March 18, 2019, 12:47:20 PM
99% chance this is operational before ground is broken at Kahn's stadium district?
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: acme54321 on March 18, 2019, 01:01:32 PM
Stationary food trucks....  Interesting.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: dp8541 on March 18, 2019, 01:22:24 PM
assuming it would be something similar to Sparkman's Wharf which recently opened in Tampa.  They have numerous restaurants in shipping containers with full electricity, plumbing, etc.   

https://sparkmanwharf.com/
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: CityLife on March 18, 2019, 01:57:49 PM
I’d imagine that if Life Time Fitness comes to Jax, this will be the site they choose. They are expanding around Florida right now and would be a big get for Jax. I’ve posted before that some of the residential developers looking at the project will bring some interesting concepts that Jax hasn’t really seen. Also, the food truck concept should be branded as a “gastro park” like this one in Tijuana. Been here before and it’s amazing.

https://sometimeshome.com/food-trucks-tijuana-telefonica-gastro-park/

I think Jax is at a real risk of losing some traction in the in town neighborhoods with young professionals if it doesn’t get its act together soon. Some how St. John’s County is now the music capital of NE Florida. If the Butler/295 corridor does actually get it together with a quality development here, you may see the cities culinary and drinking scene shift south in the long term.

Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 18, 2019, 03:04:57 PM
Cool suburban project. What takes place at town center has nothing to do with the foolishness going on in Downtown Jacksonville. They're totally different markets.  I have no problem with suburban development being built better. Vibrant cities all across the country have managed to bring more life to their central business districts while stuff like this sprouts up in the burbs.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: CityLife on March 18, 2019, 04:46:01 PM
Cool suburban project. What takes place at town center has nothing to do with the foolishness going on in Downtown Jacksonville. They're totally different markets.  I have no problem with suburban development being built better. Vibrant cities all across the country have managed to bring more life to their central business districts while stuff like this sprouts up in the burbs.
I know a decent amount of people that have left Jax's In Town neighborhoods for Nocatee, and Nocatee is a poorly designed Master Planned Community with fairly blah homes and little walkability and connectivity to commercial uses. I've seen conceptual site plans from a builder that is looking at the residential component of the Skinner project and they are far better than Nocatee, and offer a product not found in Jax. The location is optimal to bring in high quality commercial tenants, many of whom are not in Jax yet, and would likely not want to locate in the Town Center. IF a high quality development ever happens in that area, I think it absolutely will pull some current residents away from the In Town neighborhoods and more importantly pull in more future young professionals that would have previously moved to In Town neighborhoods. In the next 5-10 years, a lot of Boomers that have been the backbone of San Marco and Riverside/Avondale for years will be transitioning to retirement homes in North Carolina, Montana, The Villages, Assisted Living, etc. If Downtown is not able to provide enough culture, live music, recreation/outdoor activities, quality dining, etc; I strongly believe that many people in the future will choose quality suburbs with elements of walkability, over the In Town neighborhoods, particularly if Jax is not able to solve its crime issues.

To your point Lake, I don't think projects like this prevent anything from happening Downtown in the short term (like The District or Lot J), but I think long term can pull away a lot of residents that are necessary for Downtown to be sustainable. There is no Downtown without strong In Town neighborhoods filled with educated working professionals.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 18, 2019, 05:20:04 PM
I'm not too worried about it. All educated working professionals aren't the same, come from the same cultural backgrounds or are attracted to the same types of lifestyle offerings. I'm sure we all have educated friends that have left because the metropolitan area is simply not cosmopolitan enough. I've got a group of educated black professional friends that would never consider St. Johns because its too overwhelmingly white. I have others that have left and moved to places like Harlem, Atlanta and DC because they felt Jax wasn't culturally diverse enough to raise their kids. Then there's others that have moved to the Nocatees, CR 210s, SR 200s of the region as well. Overall, these movement patterns are typical.

With this particular project, we're talking about a 700 unit apartment complex and some commercial space inside of a 1,000 acre development, which for the most part, will be just like everything else popping up off Gate Parkway. At best, it's a much smaller (and hopefully better designed) version of Oakleaf. These things come a dime of dozen in most places. Jax is just arriving to the party late.

As baby boomers age, head to surrounding counties, etc., a new and more culturally diverse population continues to replace them, adding a cosmopolitan flair to this city that it has long lacked. From this perspective, Jax is large enough for multiple scenes to incrementally grow where certain areas will appeal to certain parts of each demographic. My true major worry is COJ ripping apart the best thing the core has going for it in the short term....which is its older architecture and sense of place for dreams of watered down SJCT type infill development. The one thing that can't be replicated that we should be building and promoting up in the core, we're spending big bucks to rid ourselves of it. Doing this will negatively impact its potential in the long term.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: CityLife on March 18, 2019, 06:17:08 PM
With this particular project, we're talking about a 700 unit apartment complex and some commercial space inside of a 1,000 acre development, which for the most part, will be just like everything else popping up off Gate Parkway. At best, it's a much smaller (and hopefully better designed) version of Oakleaf. These things come a dime of dozen in most places. Jax is just arriving to the party late.

You are just looking at the Fuqua component of the development. There are 4,600 dwelling units total in the Skinner Development and 3.5 million square feet of non-residential. From a qualitative perspective, it will be completely different than Oakleaf. As I said, I know one of the residential developers looking at the project and they are on a different level than what you find in Oakleaf or Nocatee. On the non-residential side, there are a lot of national restaurants and retailers not yet in Jax that would find this a better fit than the St. Johns Town Center. For instance, I'm working on a big redevelopment in North Palm Beach County and the first existing tenant to be pushed out is Cheesecake Factory, as a lot of the new tenants don't want to have any association with them. There is a whole market of new to Jax tenants that can be brought in if Fuqua/Skinner really know what they are doing. From a trade area perspective, this is probably the most optimal location in the entire metro area for average household incomes.

I've probably been a broken record about this over the years, but the sheer amount of developable land between JTB, ICW, 295, and Nocatee provides limitless development opportunities and could damage DT Jax and the In Town neighborhoods if the City doesn't get it together. At least most of this area is in Duval and will be able to lift up the tax base in the future.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 18, 2019, 07:41:46 PM
I'm consider the 4,600 dwelling units at max build out over the next few of decades. Right now, I'm just not sold that it will have significant, if any impact at all (positive or negative), on the urban core's fortunes. Around 1999, Oakleaf entered the scene with a proposed build out of 11,000 homes and 2.5 million square feet of commercial space. Across the river, Bartram Park came in around the same time with a planned max build out of 9,700 residential units, 1.3 million square feet of commercial space, 1.7 million square feet of office space and 300 hotel units. Like Nocatee, both have been pretty successful. Since 2000, the metro area also added over 400,000 new residents. I believe our long term growth will absorb many of the projects like this. So as long as the core has a significant employment base (white collar, logistics and manufacturing), historic housing, cheaper housing, entertainment, parks, the river, cultural diversity, easy commutes, being more multimodal friendly, etc. it will continue to cater to a portion of the continuing growing regional market. Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The biggest question facing the urban core to me is can we harness the potential of Northwest Jax and the Eastside? For so long, they've been ignored. Unfortunately, DT is screwed for the foreseeable future if the current redevelopment strategy stays in place. The downtown question will likely have to wait until Curry's time in office comes to an end. However, at most, that's only four years. Some of these proposed developments we're reading about now (like this one....and the Shipyards), probably won't even be open by then.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: bl8jaxnative on March 18, 2019, 08:48:50 PM
Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The landscape is getting more competitive.   The oldest millennial are hitting 40.   The single largest generation in our country is shifting from 20-somethings, primed to share a house with roommates and go out 4 nights a week to parents looking for a backyard and good schools.  There may not be enough in Gen Z to make up for that loss.

Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: acme54321 on March 18, 2019, 09:26:25 PM
The historic neighborhoods have something untouchable that a copy cat development in the suburbs can't provide.  They'll be fine.  Different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 18, 2019, 10:16:46 PM
Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The landscape is getting more competitive.   The oldest millennial are hitting 40.   The single largest generation in our country is shifting from 20-somethings, primed to share a house with roommates and go out 4 nights a week to parents looking for a backyard and good schools.  There may not be enough in Gen Z to make up for that loss.

It's not as clear cut as that. Not everyone is looking for cheap tract housing 30 miles away. By the same token, some of the best schools in the region are in Duval. It will be interesting to see the results of the 2020 census to see if these neighborhoods are declining in population or growing. As acme54321 said different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Florida Power And Light on March 19, 2019, 12:54:54 AM
Epic LOL at this:

Quote

Imagine historic San Marco Square – but larger – dropped into a signature Southside property.

...

“We superimposed the San Marco retail district to get that feel and we tweaked it to fit our project,” Fuqua said Frida



So it's like San Marco Square, just surrounded by surface parking instead of a neighborhood?

Clay County Citizen "Vision" exercises,deciding on what would become of undeveloped lands/ OAK LEAF suggested,inclined towards neighborhoods "Just Like Avondale".
Tiny homesites further west sprawl....Bingo!!
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: CityLife on March 19, 2019, 09:20:42 AM
Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The landscape is getting more competitive.   The oldest millennial are hitting 40.   The single largest generation in our country is shifting from 20-somethings, primed to share a house with roommates and go out 4 nights a week to parents looking for a backyard and good schools.  There may not be enough in Gen Z to make up for that loss.

It's not as clear cut as that. Not everyone is looking for cheap tract housing 30 miles away. By the same token, some of the best schools in the region are in Duval. It will be interesting to see the results of the 2020 census to see if these neighborhoods are declining in population or growing. As acme54321 said different strokes for different folks.

Cheap tract housing 30 miles away? This Skinner project is 10-12 miles from Downtown, 8 miles from the beach, 30 miles to St. Augustine, 20 miles to JIA, and a few miles to the Southside employment centers. It's arguably the best location in the entire city for residential.

While Riverside/Avondale, San Marco, and Springfield do have charming architecture, there are also major deficiencies. Jax's urban parks are woefully underfunded and undermaintained, schools are bad, old homes are costly to maintain, and the interior design is typically not functional by 21st century standards. As I've said, Jax does not have a quality new urbanist product. If my neighborhood (Abacoa in Jupiter) was in Jax, I guarantee you that many people (even highly cultured and culturally diverse urban dwellers) would choose it over the In Town neighborhoods. It's an extremely bike/ped friendly community, with miles of greenway trails integrated throughout, pocket parks everywhere, a huge regional park, village squares with community pools, large alley's behind every home, a minor league/spring training baseball facility, culturally diverse residents, Town Center with shops, bars, and breweries, no crime, a golf course, major research institutes, and offices. 10 minute drive to the beach, 20 minute drive to Downtown WPB, 20 minutes to airport, and 40 minutes to Delray Beach. It doesn't tick every box of mine, but it's pretty close.

Fortunately for Jax, the developers of Nocatee completely screwed up and did not create a truly walkable/bikeable, new urbanist community, but if someone ever does pull one off in Jax in a prime location, I don't see how it won't attract a significant amount of existing or would be In Town residents.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: FlaBoy on March 19, 2019, 09:33:54 AM
Millenials want nice houses with backyards, nice streets, and good schools. I know more Millenial friends moving down to St. Johns for their good schools than just about anywhere else. The Historic neighborhoods are high in demand of course but long term, Millenials want security just like their baby boomer parents. The closer to employment centers (or the beach) that you can get a nice house with good schools, the more desirable.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Captain Zissou on March 19, 2019, 09:40:20 AM
Clay County Citizen "Vision" exercises,deciding on what would become of undeveloped lands/ OAK LEAF suggested,inclined towards neighborhoods "Just Like Avondale".
Tiny homesites further west sprawl....Bingo!!

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard.  At no point in your rambling incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought.  Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.  I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Tacachale on March 19, 2019, 10:19:50 AM
Short of going full rust belt style, at a minimum, those that leave areas like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Brooklyn, Murray Hill, etc. will be replaced by newcomers interested in those scenes for a variety of reasons.

The landscape is getting more competitive.   The oldest millennial are hitting 40.   The single largest generation in our country is shifting from 20-somethings, primed to share a house with roommates and go out 4 nights a week to parents looking for a backyard and good schools.  There may not be enough in Gen Z to make up for that loss.

It's not as clear cut as that. Not everyone is looking for cheap tract housing 30 miles away. By the same token, some of the best schools in the region are in Duval. It will be interesting to see the results of the 2020 census to see if these neighborhoods are declining in population or growing. As acme54321 said different strokes for different folks.

Millenials want nice houses with backyards, nice streets, and good schools. I know more Millenial friends moving down to St. Johns for their good schools than just about anywhere else. The Historic neighborhoods are high in demand of course but long term, Millenials want security just like their baby boomer parents. The closer to employment centers (or the beach) that you can get a nice house with good schools, the more desirable.

There are wide differences in the population trends based on things like race, age, and wealth. While many Millennials are moving to St. Johns County, proportionately and numerically, that demographic is choosing Duval. As CityLife pointed out, a lot of that is happening in the Southside employment centers, but urban core neighborhoods are proportionately faster growing with Millennials. As with older age groups, the subset of Millennials moving to St. Johns County are disproportionately white and middle- or upper-class. So it's not like *everyone* is moving to this area, and it never will be.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 19, 2019, 10:33:46 AM
Cheap tract housing 30 miles away? This Skinner project is 10-12 miles from Downtown, 8 miles from the beach, 30 miles to St. Augustine, 20 miles to JIA, and a few miles to the Southside employment centers. It's arguably the best location in the entire city for residential.

My 30 mile comment to bl8jaxnative as a general response that tosses everything from Nassau and Clay to Northern St. Johns in the mix. Not one specific development.

Quote
While Riverside/Avondale, San Marco, and Springfield do have charming architecture, there are also major deficiencies. Jax's urban parks are woefully underfunded and undermaintained, schools are bad, old homes are costly to maintain, and the interior design is typically not functional by 21st century standards. As I've said, Jax does not have a quality new urbanist product. If my neighborhood (Abacoa in Jupiter) was in Jax, I guarantee you that many people (even highly cultured and culturally diverse urban dwellers) would choose it over the In Town neighborhoods. It's an extremely bike/ped friendly community, with miles of greenway trails integrated throughout, pocket parks everywhere, a huge regional park, village squares with community pools, large alley's behind every home, a minor league/spring training baseball facility, culturally diverse residents, Town Center with shops, bars, and breweries, no crime, a golf course, major research institutes, and offices. 10 minute drive to the beach, 20 minute drive to Downtown WPB, 20 minutes to airport, and 40 minutes to Delray Beach. It doesn't tick every box of mine, but it's pretty close.

Different strokes for different folks....even with young professionals from different backgrounds, cultures, social groups and races. That's one key thing to take away and consider with every type of development and nature. What may be attractive to one segment of the population (even highly cultured and culturally diverse urban dwellers...they're aren't all the same) will not have the same appeal to another segment. Some will view major deficiencies in new development along the JTB corridor as overpriced housing stock, a lack of diverse housing options, cheap construction, bad architecture, having to deal with traffic congestion to get anywhere, uncultured, unauthentic, lacking cultural diversity, amenities such as public libraries, etc. This is why cosmopolitan cities are such a draw. They offer a bit of something for everyone.

Quote
Fortunately for Jax, the developers of Nocatee completely screwed up and did not create a truly walkable/bikeable, new urbanist community, but if someone ever does pull one off in Jax in a prime location, I don't see how it won't attract a significant amount of existing or would be In Town residents.

I hope Nocatee, this Skinner thing and more suburban developments can be developed to be more efficient, dense and walkable than their traditional suburban counterparts. I also have no worry about some In Town residents moving to these places, Oakleaf, Chicago, Orlando, Atlanta and a host of other places. The market is growing and large enough to accommodate a variety of scenes, both in the burbs and core.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: acme54321 on March 19, 2019, 10:50:33 AM
Millenials want nice houses with backyards, nice streets, and good schools. I know more Millenial friends moving down to St. Johns for their good schools than just about anywhere else. The Historic neighborhoods are high in demand of course but long term, Millenials want security just like their baby boomer parents. The closer to employment centers (or the beach) that you can get a nice house with good schools, the more desirable.

Being an older millennial myself, I can't think of anyone in our circle moving to St John's. We have lots of friends that are moving to larger houses, but mostly in the same general areas they were already in.  Different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Kerry on March 19, 2019, 11:23:03 AM
Millenials want nice houses with backyards, nice streets, and good schools. I know more Millenial friends moving down to St. Johns for their good schools than just about anywhere else. The Historic neighborhoods are high in demand of course but long term, Millenials want security just like their baby boomer parents. The closer to employment centers (or the beach) that you can get a nice house with good schools, the more desirable.

It doesn't matter what millennials want - they can only buy the single choice they are given, and 99.9% of Jax only offers that 1 choice.  You can't move in to what doesn't exist.  Harry Selfridge revolutionized the department store in the early 1900's by putting all the merchandise on the shelves where customers could see all their options.  Investors told him he was crazy and his response was, "How do people know what they want if they can't see all the choices?"  Until then people could only buy what the sales associate showed them, and what they showed them was what the suppliers paid them to show.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Fallen Buckeye on March 19, 2019, 07:10:36 PM
Millenials want nice houses with backyards, nice streets, and good schools. I know more Millenial friends moving down to St. Johns for their good schools than just about anywhere else. The Historic neighborhoods are high in demand of course but long term, Millenials want security just like their baby boomer parents. The closer to employment centers (or the beach) that you can get a nice house with good schools, the more desirable.

Being an older millennial myself, I can't think of anyone in our circle moving to St John's. We have lots of friends that are moving to larger houses, but mostly in the same general areas they were already in.  Different strokes for different folks.
That's surprising. I'm an older millennial, too, and know lots of friends flocking towards northern St. Johns. A lot of them are actually moving from St. Augustine to be closer to work, but they like the safety and convenience in the burbs. I've seen a lot of younger transplants end up in that area, too.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 19, 2019, 07:38:15 PM
Depending on who you speak too, I'm either a young GenXer or an older millennial. I have friends around the same age that have moved to Northern St Johns, Nassau, the Beaches, the urban core, Bartram Park, the Southside, Oakleaf, neighborhoods like Arlington, Glynlea, etc. I also have another group that got frustrated or job opportunities in other cities and left Jax outright. I've had friends get fed up with Jax for being too close-minded and small and move to large cities like NYC. I have others who thought Jax was too big and congested and relocated to smaller places like Lake City. All the examples above fall within the Gen X/Millennial age group and all of them are college educated professionals. It's pretty similar with the groups of friends and associates in other regions. When you break it down, unless you're living the majority of life in a culturally homogeneous setting, there's no dominant trend one way or the other. People don't think the same and very few are stationary throughout life. Regions that can offer a variety of options to choose from tend to fare better in the long run than those that don't.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 19, 2019, 08:21:18 PM
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KpvCeENZYNo/WLjQp4cVdSI/AAAAAAAAVlw/NiAbh4dTzTw_-7ZdH2sudlg3YmvaRbvXwCLcB/s1600/Liam%2527s%2BSt.%2BPatty%2527s%2BBlock%2BParty%2B1%2BCrop.jpg)

I can also provide you with personal experience living in a place like this proposed "town center". For those of you who don't know, I've been working full time in Central Florida as in in-house consultant at a client's main office since mid 2017. Although I've extended my contract and have no desire to shift back to my DT Jax office right now, I'm also not a real fan of Orlando and have no plans to relocate there permanently. The first nine months I rented an apartment at Colonial Town Park in Lake Mary because it was roughly 20 minutes from my office in one direction (during rush hour) and 20 minutes from Downtown Orlando (outside of rush hour) in the other direction. I initially wanted to rent at a SunRail TOD but the train would have turned my 20 minute commute into a two hour one, so I passed.

Replace the Skinner food hall with an upscale movie theater, a Publix and a ton of more stuff within a five minute drive and Colonial Town Park is pretty much the same thing that Fuqua has proposed. I'll admit, being able to walk to Publix, the banks and the sports bars were a convenience. Being able to get a coffee or brunch on a lazy weekend morning from multiple places (something you still can't do in DT Jax) was a plus too. However, I never got around to using the cross county bike trail or development clubhouse. I went to the expensive movie theater and visited the retention pond/park twice and never set foot in most of the overpriced restaurants and retail shops. After about six months, I couldn't wait for the lease to end. At the end of the day, I felt it was overpriced, cheaply built (got pretty noisy at night during weekend events and concerts) and I was still driving all of the sprawling Orlando metro area to hang out with different friends, cultural scenes and events. Ultimately, there was nothing there that made it a draw or something I felt I couldn't live without. Since the lease ended last July, I think I visited that place once to pick up cheap late night chinese food while staying at a hotel across the street.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Tacachale on March 19, 2019, 11:30:40 PM
^There’s also the fact that “Millennial” isn’t just a generic term for young adults, it refers to a cohort born at a specific time, most usually said to be between 1980 and 1996 or thereabouts. As of this month, that means Millennials are aged 22-39. Generation Z are those born between about 1997-2012, or age 6-22. Clearly, people in their early 20s will have different needs and perspectives than those in their late 30s, including when they’re deciding where to live. And that’s beyond all the other factors like background, economic class and general preference.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Lostwave on March 20, 2019, 12:40:39 PM
Regardless of generations....

This development is going to really f up traffic.  Its already a mess off JTB at Kernan and off 295 at Gate.  This is just going to make it much worse.  Jax needs to work on infrastructure before adding more huge neighborhoods.  And I don't mean bigger roads... I mean more smaller roads.

Go to older cities, and there are more choices to get places.  Here everything is funneled through a few huge 6-10 lane roads that are full of traffic.  If you want to go from bay meadows to atlantic beach, you are screwed because you are fighting all the people going to neighborhoods like this, as well as people trying to pass through the city to get to miami or whatever.  Everyone going anywhere in Jax has to go on the same few roads... and most of them have a gazillion traffic signals. 
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Kerry on March 21, 2019, 01:46:40 PM
Regardless of generations....

This development is going to really f up traffic.  Its already a mess off JTB at Kernan and off 295 at Gate.  This is just going to make it much worse.  Jax needs to work on infrastructure before adding more huge neighborhoods.  And I don't mean bigger roads... I mean more smaller roads.

Go to older cities, and there are more choices to get places.  Here everything is funneled through a few huge 6-10 lane roads that are full of traffic.  If you want to go from bay meadows to atlantic beach, you are screwed because you are fighting all the people going to neighborhoods like this, as well as people trying to pass through the city to get to miami or whatever.  Everyone going anywhere in Jax has to go on the same few roads... and most of them have a gazillion traffic signals.

With my recent move to suburbia all I can says is Amen.  I had forgotten how few thru roads Jacksonville has.  We have essentially walled off each sector of the city from each other.  The river, I-295, I-95, I-10, the FEC tracks and CSX tracks have made it difficult to get across town.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 21, 2019, 02:11:30 PM
Jax is really identical to the older cities, it just seems different due to consolidation. The older city is only 30 square miles but it's gridded and easy to get around. Like most american metro areas, it's the post WW2 suburban areas where connectivity falls apart. Since the Southside
fell outside of the city prior to consolidation and wasn't really developed until the 1970s/80s it is what it is. If applied to most older cities, it would be considered the burbs and probably a completely different municipality (or several) altogether.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Kerry on March 21, 2019, 03:49:32 PM
But the vast majority of post-WWII suburban areas are gridded with subdivisions inserted within the grid.  There is an almost universal 1 mile grid in every City since Thomas Jefferson proposed it.  All of South Florida from West Palm Beach to Homestead to Naples to Sarasota is one giant grid, with only the Everglades interrupting it.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 21, 2019, 03:55:44 PM
Check out Orlando, Atlanta or most american cities and their post WW2 development pattern. It's pretty consistent. Not many were thinking about Thomas Jefferson once the automobile and expressways became king. If that grid wasn't largely in place before the 1950s, it likely never came about afterward. For Jax, the Southside was old turpentine woods, dairies and country roads back in those days.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: fieldafm on March 21, 2019, 04:24:11 PM
But the vast majority of post-WWII suburban areas are gridded with subdivisions inserted within the grid.  There is an almost universal 1 mile grid in every City since Thomas Jefferson proposed it.  All of South Florida from West Palm Beach to Homestead to Naples to Sarasota is one giant grid, with only the Everglades interrupting it.

The City of Sarasota (not Sarasota County) was largely platted out before the 1950's. Once you go just south of the city limits to places like Gulf Gate and Venice.. you're going to see the same post WWII development patterns that you see in Jax.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 21, 2019, 05:43:41 PM
Yeah, there's no one giant grid from Sarasota to Naples. It's like every place else. Individual pre 1950 towns with post WW2 sprawl outside of them. You also have a few failed 1950s General Development Corporation plats like North Port and Port Charlotte mixed in.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Tacachale on March 21, 2019, 06:18:33 PM
But the vast majority of post-WWII suburban areas are gridded with subdivisions inserted within the grid.  There is an almost universal 1 mile grid in every City since Thomas Jefferson proposed it.  All of South Florida from West Palm Beach to Homestead to Naples to Sarasota is one giant grid, with only the Everglades interrupting it.

That’s not true - most post-war suburbs across the country follow the same patterns as here.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: acme54321 on March 22, 2019, 12:23:57 PM
But the vast majority of post-WWII suburban areas are gridded with subdivisions inserted within the grid.  There is an almost universal 1 mile grid in every City since Thomas Jefferson proposed it.  All of South Florida from West Palm Beach to Homestead to Naples to Sarasota is one giant grid, with only the Everglades interrupting it.

Come on dude, universal one mile grid?  Yes, in some regions that's true(ish).  In the south though, it's not.  Just look at a map.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: marcuscnelson on March 28, 2019, 04:28:49 PM
Big update from the Daily Record:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/fuqua-development-unveils-plans-for-the-exchange-at-jacksonville (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/fuqua-development-unveils-plans-for-the-exchange-at-jacksonville)

They're calling it the Exchange at Jacksonville.

A video: https://youtu.be/wzd_MZtMBm8 (https://youtu.be/wzd_MZtMBm8)

And a photo gallery: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/photo-gallery-fuqua-developments-plans-for-skinner-property (https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/photo-gallery-fuqua-developments-plans-for-skinner-property)
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on March 28, 2019, 11:40:17 PM
Loved the video much better visual verses renderings. I guess this will be in multiple phases? Looks nice
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: dp8541 on March 29, 2019, 09:15:16 AM
This food hall is exciting.  I know none of the potential operators are for sure yet, but there are some big local names in the initial renderings (Taverana, Black sheep, Tom Gray from Moxie and Townhall, North Beach fish camp, Vagabond).  This is exactly what I had hoped for in the Landing.

Still glad the city is getting something like this even if it is not in the core.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: MusicMan on March 30, 2019, 08:15:25 AM
"The video presentation shows that the signature 20-kitchen Bold City Food Hall might feature tenants such as CuliVino, a new concept by Jacksonville chef Tom Gray, along with Black Sheep, El Jefe, 29 South, Taverna, Vagabond Coffee, Mayday Ice Cream, Tabouleh Mediterranean Café, North Beach Fish Camp, Keg & Coin and Community Loaves."

Wouldn't this mix of eateries have worked at The Landing? Plus a few more local places like Sweet Theory, Southern Roots....
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 30, 2019, 08:57:04 AM
Sure but the Landing never had a chance with the continuous fighting and suits from its two owners. Heck, you could still do something similar with it now if COJ would consider issuing a RFP for it.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Snaketoz on March 31, 2019, 07:59:38 AM
Sure but the Landing never had a chance with the continuous fighting and suits from its two owners. Heck, you could still do something similar with it now if COJ would consider issuing a RFP for it.
How likely is that?
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: MusicMan on March 31, 2019, 05:42:27 PM
Wonder if this developer got a good look at the old JEA location where The District is planned OR a look at The Shipyards?  One would think these types of developers would be licking their chops to get a big piece of waterfront, no?
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on March 31, 2019, 06:11:04 PM
This is the same developer that proposed Brooklyn Station and Brooklyn Riverside. They know the area.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Kerry on April 01, 2019, 07:19:23 PM
They aren't even buying the land until sometime next year.  I've decided not to hold my breath.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on April 01, 2019, 07:44:16 PM
^If all goes well and there's no recession, it will be at least three years before anyone steps foot in a completed building associated with this project.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Captain Zissou on April 02, 2019, 09:18:28 AM
The people on this site who think the developer closes on the land the minute they propose a project are amusing.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on April 02, 2019, 09:54:50 AM
We totally misunderstand timelines associated with development. Especially the local media and elected officials. At one point, people were talking about "barbell" redevelopment with Brooklyn/LaVilla and the Sports District first becoming successful and that causing growth to engulf the Northbank. Pretty crazy considering most of LaVilla and the Sports District will continue to be parking lots for the next decade....even with rapid growth (which isn't guaranteed).
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: RattlerGator on April 02, 2019, 08:39:54 PM
Unfortunately, DT is screwed for the foreseeable future if the current redevelopment strategy stays in place. The downtown question will likely have to wait until Curry's time in office comes to an end.

Ennis, Ennis, Ennis.

Come on, man. Come on.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on April 02, 2019, 09:28:17 PM
Sorry, I took the red pill back in 2007. 12 years later, its still a ghost town at night and on weekends. Now I'm just a realist. It is what it is. I'd like to see it just as vibrant as Clematis before I'm eligible for an AARP card but I'm not holding my breath waiting for the current strategy to play out.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on April 02, 2019, 11:26:10 PM
The people on this site who think the developer closes on the land the minute they propose a project are amusing.


Years and decades of fail projects will do that to ya!! I never celebrate anything in Jax until they are open for business and even then I worry,
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Captain Zissou on April 03, 2019, 08:59:28 AM
I've always thought this was basically a copycat of The District put on the southside, but now I'm positive.  The District guys were courting Cinebistro back in the day.  I think tenants are seeing this as a more viable project with a shorter timeline, so they are going here.  Maybe both, but I don't think this bodes well for the boondoggle on the southbank.

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/cinebistros-high-end-concept-planned-for-the-exchange-at-jacksonville
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on April 03, 2019, 09:10:55 AM
The District is one of those "I'll believe it when I see it" type of projects. I doubt we'll see two Cinebistros in a MSA as small as Jax.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on April 03, 2019, 10:19:59 AM
Lots of renderings here: https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/photo-gallery/photo-gallery-fuqua-developments-plans-for-skinner-property

(https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/sites/default/files/styles/sliders_and_planned_story_image_870x580/public/233421_standard.jpeg?itok=GjS36VFM)
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: marcuscnelson on April 03, 2019, 10:40:19 AM
At first glance, it looks really nice.

My primary qualm would be about why they rendered on-street parallel parking on that TMA Road. That would mean they're expecting people to go through that massive roundabout and then immediately stop in order to back into a parallel space, which is utterly insane.

I also notice how there in general doesn't seem to be much incentive for people to be on TMA Road unless they're pretty much driving in or out. Nothing is facing it except the backs of buildings. I assume that must be by design.

Also, I realize this is probably dumb, and not really this developer's problem, but there doesn't seem to be any room for public transit to move people anywhere. You can walk around the Exchange or from the closest houses to the Exchange, but unless you have a car you can't really get from anywhere else to the Exchange, or vice versa.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Todd_Parker on April 03, 2019, 11:58:05 AM
With this project, how dangerously close will the city/region be to reaching full amphitheater saturation?
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: tufsu1 on April 04, 2019, 08:49:52 AM
The District is one of those "I'll believe it when I see it" type of projects. I doubt we'll see two Cinebistros in a MSA as small as Jax.

and best guess is we'll never see it
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: KenFSU on April 04, 2019, 09:47:09 AM
^My money remains on significant sitework starting at the District before we see any action at Lot J, Berkman II, the Trio, the Landing, Hart Bridge ramp removal, and maybe even the Laura Street garage at this point.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Steve on April 04, 2019, 10:00:48 AM
^My money remains on significant sitework starting at the District before we see any action at Lot J, Berkman II, the Trio, the Landing, Hart Bridge ramp removal, and maybe even the Laura Street garage at this point.


I'd love to get excited on the District, but I just can't. I'm not seeing it. I'm putting the district up there with East San Marco.

I certainly could be wrong. Exhibit A: The Ambassador Hotel looks like it's actually happening and I thought that was complete nonsense when it was proposed.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: thelakelander on April 04, 2019, 10:13:16 AM
The Forsyth/Laura Street garage has been approved for construction and is needed for the Barnett and VyStar, so the District better hurry up. I'd be surprised to see Lot J, Berkman II or the Hart Bridge ramp removal get started in 2019. I don't know what's the hold up with the Trio.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: KenFSU on April 04, 2019, 12:04:16 PM
I don't know what's the hold up with the Trio.

Labor and logisitics, apparently.

Appears to be a phased construction situation where the Barnett crew will move on to the next building once they're done.

The Trio site is being used for staging and storage for the Barnett as well - the Marble Bank building looks like a Home Depot inside.

I think we'll start to see movement on the Trio pretty quickly as the Barnett winds down, but I still don't know what the hold up is with the garage. It's permitted and DDRB approved, and Vystar and the Barnett tenants are going to need it sooner than later.

Vagabond has starting working with an architect on their Barnett build-out as well. They're hoping to be in by Fall.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: KenFSU on April 04, 2019, 12:39:23 PM
^My money remains on significant sitework starting at the District before we see any action at Lot J, Berkman II, the Trio, the Landing, Hart Bridge ramp removal, and maybe even the Laura Street garage at this point.




I'd love to get excited on the District, but I just can't. I'm not seeing it. I'm putting the district up there with East San Marco.

I certainly could be wrong. Exhibit A: The Ambassador Hotel looks like it's actually happening and I thought that was complete nonsense when it was proposed.

Not my news to share, but stay tuned.

It's closer than you think.

The CDD is set up, a master developer and commercial real estate team is in place, and they're on the clock against a Southbank CRA.

Nobody wins if that space sits empty for long.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: marcuscnelson on April 05, 2019, 01:09:00 AM
Not my news to share, but stay tuned.

It's closer than you think.

The CDD is set up, a master developer and commercial real estate team is in place, and they're on the clock against a Southbank CRA.

Nobody wins if that space sits empty for long.

I like to think everyone would love to be proven wrong by the District. But I'm afraid of everyone losing.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: fieldafm on April 05, 2019, 08:48:43 AM
I don't know what's the hold up with the Trio.

Labor and logisitics, apparently.

Appears to be a phased construction situation where the Barnett crew will move on to the next building once they're done.

The Trio site is being used for staging and storage for the Barnett as well - the Marble Bank building looks like a Home Depot inside.

I think we'll start to see movement on the Trio pretty quickly as the Barnett winds down, but I still don't know what the hold up is with the garage. It's permitted and DDRB approved, and Vystar and the Barnett tenants are going to need it sooner than later.

Vagabond has starting working with an architect on their Barnett build-out as well. They're hoping to be in by Fall.

Don't know where this narrative began that the parking garage is somehow delayed. It's the second stage in a three stage development. The Barnett building renovations are not fully completed. If people think that construction workers and subcontractors are just standing around on the street looking for work, then they aren't aware of the reality of the commercial real estate market today.

Considering that the majority of the parking garage will use pre-cast concrete, construction will be quicker than the Barnett (probably 9-12 months)... and construction at the Barnett is actually well ahead of schedule. For Pete's sake, the building is actually partially OCCUPIED right now with UNF up and running on floors 4 and 5. To put that in perspective, the building has been empty for nearly 20 years, and now has a tenant occupying the building after about 13 months of construction. That's actually quite impressive.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: acme54321 on April 05, 2019, 01:15:33 PM
Rode by the Barnett on my bike the other day for the first time in a couple of months.  Really impressive what they've done.  Got a lot better look than the normal fly by when driving.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: Captain Zissou on April 05, 2019, 01:27:29 PM

Considering that the majority of the parking garage will use pre-cast concrete, construction will be quicker than the Barnett (probably 9-12 months).

They should hire the guys who built the SoBa garage.  Construction timeline of 9-12 weeks.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: fieldafm on April 05, 2019, 01:32:36 PM

Considering that the majority of the parking garage will use pre-cast concrete, construction will be quicker than the Barnett (probably 9-12 months).

They should hire the guys who built the SoBa garage.  Construction timeline of 9-12 weeks.

Not having to bring the entire site up to grade and having a brand new retention pond nearby thanks to FDOT certainly helps.
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: KenFSU on April 05, 2019, 03:25:51 PM
Don't know where this narrative began that the parking garage is somehow delayed.

Straight from the developer.

The intention was for the garage to be completed at the same time as the Barnett.

As stated in the original Southeast/Molasky press release:

Quote
"Completion of the new parking facility is scheduled to coincide with the opening of the Barnett Building in the last quarter of 2018."

http://www.southeastgroup.com/news/2017/10/15/construction-begins-on-barnett-national-bank-and-laura-street-trio-buildings

And reiterated throughout the DDRB approval process:

Quote
"The developers expect to complete the [garage] in late 2018 or early 2019 to coincide with the completion of the Barnett Bank Building."

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/final-designs-for-hotel-parking-garage-conceptual-design-for-jones-furniture-co-building-going-before-ddrb

Timelines and labor supply can obviously change, but just looking at the moving parts here, it feels like we're going to have at least a 500-space deficit if the garage doesn't start soon.

The Barnett apartments should be move-in ready by fall, and the residents are supposed to have between 100 and 110 spots in the new garage. And Vystar plans to have all of its employees moved downtown by December, and has signed a long-term lease for 400 parking spots in the new garage.

Not sure where everyone's going to park for the better part of 2020 if construction of the garage takes 9-12 months and doesn't begin until the Barnett is completed.

Although there is one temporary possibility that is almost too horrifying/dark/ironic to even consider...

(https://snag.gy/xmZRdt.jpg)
Title: Re: Atlanta Developer Shares Vision for $300 Million Town Center Development
Post by: fieldafm on April 05, 2019, 03:39:10 PM
Guess that's the difference between reading press releases, and talking to the general contractor and having an idea of how construction really works. And in particular, I wouldn't rely on most things said at DDRB. I could rattle off at least a dozen things said at DDRB over the last 5 years that were outright fabrications, without having to think too hard.

I also wouldn't take the 'Vystar will have all their employees downtown by the end of the year' press release at face value either. They won't even be starting work on the Life of the South building until likely late 2020.

I mean, if we're talking about fluff press releases and timelines, The District would be teeming with 2,000 residents both young and old living some kind of utopian, healthy lifestyle by now  :)