The Jaxson

Community => Politics => Topic started by: JeffreyS on October 06, 2018, 01:56:28 PM

Title: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on October 06, 2018, 01:56:28 PM
So Bush leaves about a 9% annual deficit, Obama leaves it at about 1.5% then boom another Republican in the office and we are already back at 4% and soaring. Same old pattern.  (Note the very conservative source).



https://thehill.com/policy/finance/410177-deficit-soars-to-782-billion-in-2018

 (https://thehill.com/policy/finance/410177-deficit-soars-to-782-billion-in-2018)
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: Kiva on October 06, 2018, 07:02:40 PM
Republicans no longer care about the deficit. That was a way to attack Obama. Now that Trump is in office they are very quiet. Deficits are now a good thing!
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 07, 2018, 07:34:57 AM
Apparently republican politicians don't care about deficits... disgraceful.  >:(
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on October 07, 2018, 04:46:36 PM
Apparently republican politicians don't care about deficits... disgraceful.  >:(

The thing is those Republican politicians haven't cared about debt for a long long time and I admit I can't figure out how they keep making fools of conservative voters who do care about this issue.  I know that is a bit of a barb but I really do want to know how they win on this issue.  It goes back even farther Carter brought it down from Ford and then Regan immediately pushed it up and Bush 1 pushed it up even more.  How do they convince people over and over they care about debt? 
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: sanmarcomatt on October 07, 2018, 04:52:33 PM
Apparently republican politicians don't care about deficits... disgraceful.  >:(

The thing is those Republican politicians haven't cared about debt for a long long time and I admit I can't figure out how they keep making fools of conservative voters who do care about this issue.  I know that is a bit of a barb but I really do want to know how they win on this issue.  It goes back even farther Carter brought it down from Ford and then Regan immediately pushed it up and Bush 1 pushed it up even more.  How do they convince people over and over they care about debt? 

Republican politicians care as much about fiscal responsibility as much as democratic politicians care about the poor. If either base doesn't recognize that, they are dumb as rocks.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: Adam White on October 07, 2018, 05:14:11 PM
Apparently republican politicians don't care about deficits... disgraceful.  >:(

The thing is those Republican politicians haven't cared about debt for a long long time and I admit I can't figure out how they keep making fools of conservative voters who do care about this issue.  I know that is a bit of a barb but I really do want to know how they win on this issue.  It goes back even farther Carter brought it down from Ford and then Regan immediately pushed it up and Bush 1 pushed it up even more.  How do they convince people over and over they care about debt? 

Republican politicians care as much about fiscal responsibility as much as democratic politicians care about the poor. If either base doesn't recognize that, they are dumb as rocks.

Of course they don't recognize that.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on October 07, 2018, 05:17:24 PM
Apparently republican politicians don't care about deficits... disgraceful.  >:(

The thing is those Republican politicians haven't cared about debt for a long long time and I admit I can't figure out how they keep making fools of conservative voters who do care about this issue.  I know that is a bit of a barb but I really do want to know how they win on this issue.  It goes back even farther Carter brought it down from Ford and then Regan immediately pushed it up and Bush 1 pushed it up even more.  How do they convince people over and over they care about debt? 

Republican politicians care as much about fiscal responsibility as much as democratic politicians care about the poor. If either base doesn't recognize that, they are dumb as rocks.

Ok so for this debate I stipulate to your point.  So why do so many not "dumb as rocks" conservatives vote for the GOP on this issue?
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: sanmarcomatt on October 07, 2018, 06:15:53 PM
Apparently republican politicians don't care about deficits... disgraceful.  >:(

The thing is those Republican politicians haven't cared about debt for a long long time and I admit I can't figure out how they keep making fools of conservative voters who do care about this issue.  I know that is a bit of a barb but I really do want to know how they win on this issue.  It goes back even farther Carter brought it down from Ford and then Regan immediately pushed it up and Bush 1 pushed it up even more.  How do they convince people over and over they care about debt? 

Republican politicians care as much about fiscal responsibility as much as democratic politicians care about the poor. If either base doesn't recognize that, they are dumb as rocks.

Ok so for this debate I stipulate to your point.  So why do so many not "dumb as rocks" conservatives vote for the GOP on this issue?

I would guess it is how they think the money will be spent as opposed to the amount.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on October 07, 2018, 06:38:24 PM
I think that is part of it but that is never the way I hear it.  I just was speaking to someone who told he thinks that GOP voters that somehow cutting the Government's revenue (taxes) will somehow stimulate the economy enough to cover the lost revenue.  Which I guess I can understand because if that ever worked how great that would be.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: sanmarcomatt on October 07, 2018, 06:46:30 PM
I think that is part of it but that is never the way I hear it. 

Remember, you asked my opinion on "not dumb as rock" voters. Anyone that only cares about the amount and not how the amount is spent, is dumb as a rock.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on October 07, 2018, 07:01:33 PM
Fair point.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: Kiva on October 07, 2018, 07:08:56 PM

Republican politicians care as much about fiscal responsibility as much as democratic politicians care about the poor. If either base doesn't recognize that, they are dumb as rocks.
Well, some democratic politicians care about the poor. Why else would they push for an increase in the minimum wage? Although I agree with you that Republican politicians do not care about fiscal responsibility!
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 08, 2018, 06:35:33 AM
Apparently republican politicians don't care about deficits... disgraceful.  >:(

The thing is those Republican politicians haven't cared about debt for a long long time and I admit I can't figure out how they keep making fools of conservative voters who do care about this issue.  I know that is a bit of a barb but I really do want to know how they win on this issue.  It goes back even farther Carter brought it down from Ford and then Regan immediately pushed it up and Bush 1 pushed it up even more.  How do they convince people over and over they care about debt? 

Well... some republican politicians care about deficits...  Who on either side votes based on a single issue?  You are well aware the "base" voters on each side vote party over results every time... it certainly isnt a "republican" thing...
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on October 08, 2018, 08:52:01 AM
My point is that I believe Republican voters care about deficits and by in large GOP politicians don’t. I think lots of people vote single issue abortion , climate change and immigration come to mind. However I am just wondering how the GOP wins on this issue.  ( IMO they do) I think Matt makes a good point on the what the money is spent on may be more of f a factor and conservatives say debt but mean something else. I also think  bit of wishful thinking about tax cuts and the belief in markets in general tend to out weigh the evidence. I should say those are not long held beliefs but where this examination I have been pondering is leading me.  Now obviously you are correct that right now more people vote party over everything else. Do yo think the GOP wins on this issue BT and if so why?
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: I-10east on October 08, 2018, 10:25:30 AM
(Note the very conservative source).



https://thehill.com/policy/finance/410177-deficit-soars-to-782-billion-in-2018

 (https://thehill.com/policy/finance/410177-deficit-soars-to-782-billion-in-2018)


Sure on paper The Hill is 'very conservative" but they actually have like a 50/50 split between conservative and liberal columnists (in fact, more liberal wiki page columnists than conservative). At this point, I would call The Hill 'bipartisan'. I definitely wouldn't say that the author of this article is all entrenched within 'the conservative camp' by no means.

Like I said in the past, the entire US political realm has shifted leftward gradually over the past 20 years. The current conservatives are basically the old school democrats of the 90s (with a pro gun caveat), and the left has went farther and father leftward, into the weird land of socialism and SJW San Fran politics (many abandoning the old neoliberal style politics).
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: I-10east on October 08, 2018, 11:08:54 AM
The site factcheck.org (who call itself non partisan, link below) has a generally very rosy depiction of Obama's presidency overall (some info I would definitely question) stated concerning the debt "The federal debt owed to the public rose 128 percent. Deficits were rising as Obama departed". So to say that Obama left this ultra low deficit, and then the evil Trump gets in there and the deficit suddenly skyrockets all because of him is complete hogwash.

It's funny that Obama tried to claim the booming Trump economy (even though his unfriendly business policies did not correlate). Do he get to claim this deficit also?? It can't be both ways, that's all that I'm saying. Consumer confidence, US manufacturing, and jobs has risen dramatically under this current administration, that cannot be denied.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: vicupstate on October 08, 2018, 12:38:04 PM
The site factcheck.org (who call itself non partisan, link below) has a generally very rosy depiction of Obama's presidency overall (some info I would definitely question) stated concerning the debt "The federal debt owed to the public rose 128 percent. Deficits were rising as Obama departed". So to say that Obama left this ultra low deficit, and then the evil Trump gets in there and the deficit suddenly skyrockets all because of him is complete hogwash.

It's funny the Obama tried to claim the booming Trump economy (even though his unfriendly business policies did not correlate). Do he get to claim this deficit also?? It can't be both ways, that's all that I'm saying. Consumer confidence, US manufacturing, and jobs his risen dramatically under this current administration, that cannot be denied.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/09/obamas-final-numbers/

You might want to check your own link. Profits increased dramatically under Obama, as your link shows, despite the 'unfriendly business policies' you complain about.  While deficits increased in Obama's last two years, it fell each of the prior six years.

U.S. Manufacturing has risen steadily every year since 2010. It is not a new phenomenon.

https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3000000001 (https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3000000001)

   
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: DrQue on October 08, 2018, 01:02:24 PM
Further increasing budget deficits this far along in the economic cycle is not very prudent in and of itself. We're also doing this in a rising interest rate environment, so it is going to cost more to service the higher debt loads.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: sanmarcomatt on October 08, 2018, 01:32:53 PM
I came upon this test question and I thought it was relevant.

The act of assigning blame for the deficit to specific presidents or administrations without considering other factors is due to:

A. People are just blindly partisan
B. People are dumb as rocks
C. Who the F@!K cares?
D. A and B are correct
E. A,B and C are correct.


Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 08, 2018, 04:37:54 PM
C
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on October 08, 2018, 09:04:04 PM

The act of assigning blame for the deficit to specific presidents or administrations without considering other factors is due to:


I get that the 50k foot view doesn't have all the details but it has trouble lying as well.  You can go back with the pattern of the deficit shrinking under Democrat Administrations and growing under Republicans Administrations at least 50 years.  I suspect there is more than coincidence at play.  At the very least the idea that a GOP Presidents can claim to be more fiscally responsible than Democrats (or at all) is flawed.

I still find it hard to believe it came down to 1.5% of GDP by the end of Obama's run. If we had put some strings on the bail out money for the banks we might have made it all the way to surplus.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: MusicMan on October 08, 2018, 09:09:55 PM
The problem with our deficit is that it has not bought anything. If our roads, bridges, damns, airports and other large infrastructures were in great shape I would mind a lot less. Unfortunately they are not. The money has been spent on unnecessary tax cuts for super wealthy corporations and people, pointless wars, a bloated military. 

In the not too distant past we were running surpluses and paying down the debt. And in fact the economy was doing pretty well at this time. It was a result of bipartisan work in the late 1990's.

Bush ("W") came in and threw all that out the window.  Another reason for concern is that while the economy is supposedly doing well, we are not using these "good times" to pay down the debt.  Most responsible people set aside funds for a "rainy day." As a nation we should be doing just that, taking advantage of the boom times to pay down the debt. We are doing the opposite, and any reasonable person should conclude that is a cause for concern.

The term "deficit hawk" is exclusively a Republican term, and describes so called fiscal conservatives who rail against excess spending. You will also notice you only hear from them when Democrats are in office. (Former) Speaker of the House  Paul Ryan is a perfect example.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: sanmarcomatt on October 08, 2018, 09:23:09 PM
E
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 08, 2018, 09:41:05 PM
E

Damn. 

Can I get partial credit?
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: BridgeTroll on October 09, 2018, 09:32:17 AM
My point is that I believe Republican voters care about deficits and by in large GOP politicians don’t. I think lots of people vote single issue abortion , climate change and immigration come to mind. However I am just wondering how the GOP wins on this issue.  ( IMO they do) I think Matt makes a good point on the what the money is spent on may be more of f a factor and conservatives say debt but mean something else. I also think  bit of wishful thinking about tax cuts and the belief in markets in general tend to out weigh the evidence. I should say those are not long held beliefs but where this examination I have been pondering is leading me.  Now obviously you are correct that right now more people vote party over everything else. Do yo think the GOP wins on this issue BT and if so why?

Clearly no one is "winning" on the issue.  GOP pols pay lip service to the deficit issue and Dem pols don't care at all about it or believe it can simply be overcome by "taxing the rich" which plays to their base but has its own flavor of warts.  The parties are irreparably broken and I have little faith in any of the clowns we elect...
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: bl8jaxnative on November 04, 2018, 01:29:35 PM

We've known this would happen for years.  Not because of the yammers of tribal ideologues blaming so-n-so but because huge spending increases are back in the federal system via Social Security and Medicare.   This isn't about politics, it's about reality.   

The bipartisan Policy Center - and every other economist and think tank - has been talking about this forever.  Long ago they were project that in these years with the baby boomers retiring in droves  -- as we quickly approach the single biggest generation having more people retired than working --- that we would see Federal deficits and, worse, Federal debt explode.

The finger pointing is knuckle-dragging tribalism that's about as constructive as siblings trying to blame each other for farting.   


https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/cbo-issues-stark-warning-deficits/


Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: JeffreyS on November 05, 2018, 08:27:12 AM
This was the corporate tax scam passed last year.
Title: Re: Deficit already doubles under Trump
Post by: BridgeTroll on November 05, 2018, 10:31:47 AM
All you need to know...  8)  This breaks down your wages and where your tax dollars go...

https://www.wheredomytaxesgo.co/