The Jaxson

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: KenFSU on April 15, 2018, 10:39:57 AM

Title: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 15, 2018, 10:39:57 AM
Interesting article ahead of Thursday's State of the Franchise event:

Quote
Khan’s vision for downtown development faces knotty challenges

The Jaguars’ “State of the Franchise” on Thursday will double as a “State of Downtown” for team owner Shad Khan.

The event will come one year after the Downtown Investment Authority picked Khan’s Iguana Investments Florida as the top choice to be master developer of Metropolitan Park and The Shipyards, two city-owned tracts of riverfront land across the street from the sports complex.

Since then, Khan has added Lot J, a large parking lot at the stadium, to the mix as a potential site for an entertainment district.

If history is a guide, the State of the Franchise will unveil eye-catching renderings of what Khan envisions for Lot J, Met Park and The Shipyards.

But complicated challenges stand in the way: contaminated soil at Lot J and The Shipyards, a National Park Service agreement that prevents private development on Met Park unless the city can find replacement park land elsewhere, and the continued hunt for money to tear down the Hart Bridge elevated ramps that run alongside Met Park...

Full story: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180414/khans-vision-for-downtown-development-faces-knotty-challenges?start=2

Two interesting points:

1) There may be a way to safely develop Lot J as is.

2) The city has been in active talks recently with the National Park Service about opening up Metro Park for development.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on April 15, 2018, 03:49:11 PM
Given the disdain the current administration in DC has for the National Park Service, and their desire to develop all that wasted property, we may not have to provide any compensatory land for Metro Park.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: marcuscnelson on April 15, 2018, 04:13:01 PM
Given the disdain the current administration in DC has for the National Park Service, and their desire to develop all that wasted property, we may not have to provide any compensatory land for Metro Park.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet on that being the case. Besides, what's wrong with having a nice urban park Downtown? Especially with Khan's currently proposed location connecting to Hogan Creek.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on April 15, 2018, 05:01:47 PM
Given the disdain the current administration in DC has for the National Park Service, and their desire to develop all that wasted property, we may not have to provide any compensatory land for Metro Park.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet on that being the case. Besides, what's wrong with having a nice urban park Downtown? Especially with Khan's currently proposed location connecting to Hogan Creek.

Oh, I think we should replace Metro. I'm just opining that if the local GOP powers-that-be ask, they might get a favorable response.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: marcuscnelson on April 15, 2018, 06:15:55 PM
Oh, I think we should replace Metro. I'm just opining that if the local GOP powers-that-be ask, they might get a favorable response.

Fair.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: jagsonville on April 15, 2018, 10:07:52 PM
Lookin forward to Khan and company’s presentation on Thursday. I feel like Khan and Lamping will make this happen in the next two years and light a fire under under Sleiman to do something with the Landing.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 15, 2018, 10:41:14 PM
Lookin forward to Khan and company’s presentation on Thursday. I feel like Khan and Lamping will make this happen in the next two years and light a fire under under Sleiman to do something with the Landing.

Light a fire under Sleiman? Fair or unfair, my perception is that the city and/or Khan is trying to squeeze him out of the property.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 16, 2018, 11:29:01 AM
Lookin forward to Khan and company’s presentation on Thursday. I feel like Khan and Lamping will make this happen in the next two years and light a fire under under Sleiman to do something with the Landing.

Light a fire under Sleiman? Fair or unfair, my perception is that the city and/or Khan is trying to squeeze him out of the property.

I'd say that that ship has sailed and they're going to build their own entertainment center closer to the stadium and let Sleiman do whatever it is he wants with the Landing. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: copperfiend on April 16, 2018, 12:16:55 PM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 16, 2018, 12:27:37 PM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".

You mean Styx and REO Speedwagon are coming back for a second show?!? Or is it somebody new? Kansas? URIAH HEEP!? Oh the anticipation!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 16, 2018, 12:50:50 PM
I don't want to play spoiler here but Buckcherry, P.O.D., Lit and Alien Ant Farm are going on tour together.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 16, 2018, 01:22:36 PM
I don't want to play spoiler here but Buckcherry, P.O.D., Lit and Alien Ant Farm are going on tour together.

I thought this was a joke, but it's very, very real (http://loudwire.com/buckcherry-pod-lit-and-alien-ant-farm-announce-gen-x-tour/). They're even calling it the "Gen X Tour". I guess "Hi Bored, I'm Dad Tour" was taken.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 16, 2018, 01:49:17 PM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".

The Jags don't control the arena, just Daily's Place and Everbank Field.

I don't think anything at Daily's Place would classify as "momentous," just because it's only a 5,500 seat venue.

So I'm guessing it's either a big act at the stadium, or a festival at the stadium complex.

My guess, based on that criteria and Live Nation's partners, is Ed Sheeran.

He's doing a stadium tour in November, with only two stops in the southeast (Raymond James Stadium in Tampa on 11/7 and Mercedes Benz Stadium in Atlanta on 11/10).
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Gators312 on April 16, 2018, 02:26:00 PM
I don't want to play spoiler here but Buckcherry, P.O.D., Lit and Alien Ant Farm are going on tour together.

I thought this was a joke, but it's very, very real (http://loudwire.com/buckcherry-pod-lit-and-alien-ant-farm-announce-gen-x-tour/). They're even calling it the "Gen X Tour". I guess "Hi Bored, I'm Dad Tour" was taken.

Appropriate choice of Milwaukee to kick off this abomination. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on April 16, 2018, 02:39:51 PM
Why not incorporate the park land swap with the Emerald Necklace? Develop Met Park into a Four Seasons Hotel and Conference Center and create a Hogan's Creek park to serve as the centerpiece of the Emerald Necklace.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxJersey-licious on April 16, 2018, 02:57:27 PM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".

My bet is Lynyrd Skynyrd multiple dates at Dailys Place before either the home opener or Jags-Patriots matchup.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 16, 2018, 03:08:15 PM
Why not incorporate the park land swap with the Emerald Necklace? Develop Met Park into a Four Seasons Hotel and Conference Center and create a Hogan's Creek park to serve as the centerpiece of the Emerald Necklace.

Might could work, but I don't know that handing all that land over to the feds would be in our best interest. There's a lot of red tap and the Emerald Necklace needs a ton of work as it is. I wonder if the feds would even go for it.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 16, 2018, 03:31:43 PM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".

My bet is Lynyrd Skynyrd multiple dates at Dailys Place before either the home opener or Jags-Patriots matchup.

This is actually a really solid guess.

Looks like Lynyrd Skynyrd (or whatever's left of the band) is on their farewell tour right now.

Right now their final show is September 1st in Atlanta.

Makes sense for them to play their "final show" or shows here in Jacksonville.

That said, I wish the Jags would find a better win song than Sweet Home Alabama. It's a stupid song to use for a Jacksonville win, and local roots aside, I'm not sure LS really resonates with the under 40-crowd very well.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 16, 2018, 04:02:59 PM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".

My bet is Lynyrd Skynyrd multiple dates at Dailys Place before either the home opener or Jags-Patriots matchup.

That would make sense. If it's a final concert kind of thing, it could feature other musicians as guests too.

And maybe even have it in the stadium.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on April 16, 2018, 04:37:38 PM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".

My bet is Lynyrd Skynyrd multiple dates at Dailys Place before either the home opener or Jags-Patriots matchup.

This is actually a really solid guess.

Looks like Lynyrd Skynyrd (or whatever's left of the band) is on their farewell tour right now.

Right now their final show is September 1st in Atlanta.

Makes sense for them to play their "final show" or shows here in Jacksonville.

That said, I wish the Jags would find a better win song than Sweet Home Alabama. It's a stupid song to use for a Jacksonville win, and local roots aside, I'm not sure LS really resonates with the under 40-crowd very well.

And, geography lesson - This. is. not. Alabama.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaGoaT on April 16, 2018, 05:46:06 PM
Why not incorporate the park land swap with the Emerald Necklace? Develop Met Park into a Four Seasons Hotel and Conference Center and create a Hogan's Creek park to serve as the centerpiece of the Emerald Necklace.
First thing that came to mind when I saw the mention of land swap. I really hope this is what they have planned.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 18, 2018, 09:50:06 AM
I was able to get a peek at the Lot J renderings. I think it will be talked about a lot in this thread tomorrow.

Visually impressive, and so much more than just a stretch of bars/restaurants.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 18, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
I was able to get a peek at the Lot J renderings. I think it will be talked about a lot in this thread tomorrow.

Visually impressive, and so much more than just a stretch of bars/restaurants.

It's gonna be a fun day.

Lot J renderings.

New uniform reveal.

Shipyards update.

Stadium rebrand renderings.

Some kind of concert announcement.

Also, it might not be far enough along to announce tomorrow, but there's been buzz in the last couple of weeks that Khan has been talking with Four Seasons.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: comncense on April 18, 2018, 01:30:45 PM
The team's schedule will also be released tomorrow night. Keeping fingers crossed for at least one home prime time game
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on April 18, 2018, 01:41:02 PM
I was able to get a peek at the Lot J renderings. I think it will be talked about a lot in this thread tomorrow.

Visually impressive, and so much more than just a stretch of bars/restaurants.

It's gonna be a fun day.

Lot J renderings.

New uniform reveal.

Shipyards update.

Stadium rebrand renderings.

Some kind of concert announcement.

Also, it might not be far enough along to announce tomorrow, but there's been buzz in the last couple of weeks that Khan has been talking with Four Seasons.

Is Frankie Valli still touring?  ;-)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 18, 2018, 01:42:59 PM
The team's schedule will also be released tomorrow night. Keeping fingers crossed for at least one home prime time game

I think we will see one early in the year against either Pittsburgh or New England.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 18, 2018, 05:30:48 PM
Also, it might not be far enough along to announce tomorrow, but there's been buzz in the last couple of weeks that Khan has been talking with Four Seasons.

So I randomly messaged a friend from waaaaay back and asked if he can give me ANY info on a potential four seasons deal in Jax. This is not somebody I am close with anymore nor have we actually spoken in a long long time. However, we have had occasional interaction on facebook. Based on his job title, he would 100% be privy to anything of this sort and actually would probably be involved on such a project.

Anyway, he said he wouldn't be allowed to divulge anything at all, but if he was going to give me a hint it would be that their focus is on ex-US and Latin America in particular.

I would love for him to be wrong and/or just keeping me in the dark. We shall see!!!!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on April 18, 2018, 06:31:02 PM
Looking forward to the announcement
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 18, 2018, 07:52:55 PM
I would love for him to be wrong and/or just keeping me in the dark. We shall see!!!!

And now he's sent me another message basically teasing me that he can't share anything anyway.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 18, 2018, 07:54:45 PM
Also, it might not be far enough along to announce tomorrow, but there's been buzz in the last couple of weeks that Khan has been talking with Four Seasons.

So I randomly messaged a friend from waaaaay back and asked if he can give me ANY info on a potential four seasons deal in Jax. This is not somebody I am close with anymore nor have we actually spoken in a long long time. However, we have had occasional interaction on facebook. Based on his job title, he would 100% be privy to anything of this sort and actually would probably be involved on such a project.

Anyway, he said he wouldn't be allowed to divulge anything at all, but if he was going to give me a hint it would be that their focus is on ex-US and Latin America in particular.

I would love for him to be wrong and/or just keeping me in the dark. We shall see!!!!

We'll see what happens :)

One thing to note though is that Four Seasons doesn't operate like a traditional hotel brand, where they own their properties. Ultimately, they're just a hotel management brand partnering with whoever has the capital to build out a Four Seasons caliber property. Property owners and developers come to them and say, "I want to build a five star hotel in City X, I'm fully funding it, overseeing construction, and maintaining ownership. I want to give you a percentage to operate the hotel and brand it as Four Seasons." There's very little risk for Four Seasons, aside from any potential to damage the brand.

They may have strategic markets they wants to build in, but if Shad Khan comes to them and says, "I want to build a Four Seasons here in Jacksonville and I'm willing to spare no expense to do it," I think it happens. Plus, Four Seasons loves multiple-property owners, and they love Shad Khan (he owns the Four Seasons in the city that the brand is headquartered in, Toronto, and is close with Prince Al-waleed, who owns a large percentage of the Four Seasons company).

As we've seen in the past, Khan is a guy who gets what he wants, and a Four Seasons in Jacksonville has been on his list for years now. I honestly think it's a matter of when, not if.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 19, 2018, 01:02:11 AM
I definitely agree with you that Khan makes things happen. The question is how much he wants this in particular.

And the fact that Four Seasons is an operator and not owner/developer hardly suggests that they are not selective with their properties.

But yeah, we will see! No reason it couldn't happen if Khan leads the way.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ben says on April 19, 2018, 04:46:29 AM
On the one hand, if St. Louis can have a Four Seasons, I think JAX could.

On the other hand, I don´t think anyone visiting JAX would pay FS rates, unless it´s corp biz....

FS is exceptionally selective with its destinations, mangement co. or otherwise. Harder to get a FS than an IKEA, believe it or not. (Better comparison: getting a FS is more like getting a Bloomingdales, which is a step up from Nordstrom, which took moving heaven and hell to get....)

I work with FS on a daily basis...just can´t see this happening. After all, the entire country of Spain is just now, in 2018, getting their first FS. Madrid. Barcelona, despite years of trying, can´t even get one, since it´s solely a leisure destination and not a corporate destination (which is also why Madrid got theirs - more corp. biz.)

Worth mentioning it took two decades for Orlando to get their FS, and Tampa hasn´t gotten one despite trying for 12 or more years.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: comncense on April 19, 2018, 07:45:49 AM
Looks like JIA leaked the new uniforms


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbHVVVbW4AEZANe.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: MusicMan on April 19, 2018, 08:25:29 AM
Do NFL Franchise owners pay an annual tax on the value of the franchise?

I'm thinking NO even though it's basically a cash flowing business. And I assume they pay taxes on any surplus revenue they earn in any given year.

And is it fair that an owner of an apartment complex or business pays an annual tax on their assets but an NFL franchise owner would not?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 19, 2018, 08:33:18 AM
From the renderings I saw (and will be shown today), there is a building located on the Met Park property that looks like a hotel/condo tower and it has a 4 Seasons type look.

I am really looking forward to the comments in this forum to what is shown today. Very grand plans from the Jaguars.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 08:54:13 AM
On the other hand, I don´t think anyone visiting JAX would pay FS rates, unless it´s corp biz...

This.

To both of your points, active dialogue definitely doesn't mean that it's going to happen.

I just know that Khan is very optimistic about it, especially in the last few weeks.

Is it viable though?

I think we're quite a ways off.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 08:57:03 AM
I am really looking forward to the comments in this forum to what is shown today. Very grand plans from the Jaguars.

Can't wait!

I want to know more, but I respect your discretion :)

2 hours to go.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 09:43:38 AM
Its not listed in the article. But I noticed something in the schedule for this week that was tweeted out by the Jags PR guy.

It said Thursday, as part of the State of the Franchise, there would be a "Momentous Live Music Announcement".

My bet is Lynyrd Skynyrd multiple dates at Dailys Place before either the home opener or Jags-Patriots matchup.

Lynyrd Skynyrd is correct.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxJersey-licious on April 19, 2018, 10:24:38 AM
Was hoping they would also announce the Eagles-Jags game would be moved up to prime time in England for a 1:00 start in the states but apparently it's locked in to 9:30 AM October 28. Missed opportunity there but at least it's an exclusive audience.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 11:00:01 AM
Event is live on Jaguars.com now.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 19, 2018, 11:03:41 AM
They are streaming on Facebook also
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 19, 2018, 11:23:51 AM
Laying the groundwork for major stadium renovations...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 11:35:14 AM
"Before we get to the good stuff, who wants to see some linear regression!"
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 11:43:06 AM
Jaguars adding a dogpark to the stadium on the south deck.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Captain Zissou on April 19, 2018, 11:54:59 AM
Jaguars adding a dogpark to the stadium on the south deck.

Y Tho?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 19, 2018, 12:04:26 PM
Here are the good parts
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 12:12:58 PM
Jags partnering with Cordish on up to $2 billion in new development, starting with Lot J.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: FlaBoy on April 19, 2018, 12:13:18 PM
Looks like they want a convention center possibly across the street from Lot J with a new upscale hotel and some office/residential.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2018, 12:15:04 PM
Hmm. So parking garage, office space, some sort of live arena, hotel and retail mixed in on Lot J? I also see the bridge design has changed. The elevated bike/ped part will remain a highway. No visible incorporation of JTA's AV stuff either.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 19, 2018, 12:18:00 PM
Looks like they want a convention center possibly across the street from Lot J with a new upscale hotel and some office/residential.
I don't see a convention center on the rendering they released.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on April 19, 2018, 12:21:22 PM
That rendering is unbelievable, wow if only 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 12:22:20 PM
Looks like they want a convention center possibly across the street from Lot J with a new upscale hotel and some office/residential.

From the renderings, it looks more like a hotel with exhibition space than a convention center proper.

Two serious bidders for the courthouse site is the word on the street.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: FlaBoy on April 19, 2018, 12:25:48 PM
Looks like they want a convention center possibly across the street from Lot J with a new upscale hotel and some office/residential.

From the renderings, it looks more like a hotel with exhibition space than a convention center proper.

Two serious bidders for the courthouse site is the word on the street.

For sure. Lamping literally said, "convention space and potentially convention center..."
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 19, 2018, 12:35:52 PM
That rendering is unbelievable, wow if only 

It's certainly impressive.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on April 19, 2018, 12:43:52 PM
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/800/41562847881_8a651801cb_b.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/904/26694365207_8b3db7fd86_b.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: minder on April 19, 2018, 12:46:55 PM
I'll believe it when I see......cement.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 19, 2018, 12:54:42 PM
I'm really skeptical that there's a market for more office space downtown. The stadium district should focus on apartments instead.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on April 19, 2018, 12:59:05 PM
I'm really skeptical that there's a market for more office space downtown. The stadium district should focus on apartments instead.

A lot of it will be apartments.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 19, 2018, 01:01:16 PM
I'm really skeptical that there's a market for more office space downtown. The stadium district should focus on apartments instead.

A lot of it will be apartments.

Good, good. It says "office" in the renderings I saw, but I'm unable to watch it live.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: minder on April 19, 2018, 01:16:55 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbKHiHFW4AAEPom.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 19, 2018, 01:18:32 PM
I'm really skeptical that there's a market for more office space downtown. The stadium district should focus on apartments instead.

A lot of it will be apartments.

Good, good. It says "office" in the renderings I saw, but I'm unable to watch it live.

Lamping said that the mix would be whatever the market commanded.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on April 19, 2018, 01:20:15 PM
I'm really skeptical that there's a market for more office space downtown. The stadium district should focus on apartments instead.

A lot of it will be apartments.

Good, good. It says "office" in the renderings I saw, but I'm unable to watch it live.

The first phase around the Live! facility will be office and hotel, but the part by the water will be lots apts.  Plus in the future phase where lot M and N are, will be all residential (if that ever gets built)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 19, 2018, 01:27:04 PM
I'm really skeptical that there's a market for more office space downtown. The stadium district should focus on apartments instead.

A lot of it will be apartments.

Good, good. It says "office" in the renderings I saw, but I'm unable to watch it live.

The first phase around the Live! facility will be office and hotel, but the part by the water will be lots apts.  Plus in the future phase where lot M and N are, will be all residential (if that ever gets built)

It's the "offices" by Daily's Place that concern me. That's what ought to be apartments, unless they have some specific tenant in mind, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 02:03:14 PM
I'd consider everything that we saw today to be purely conceptual.

I have no doubt the Jaguars are going to build something on Lot J, but it probably won't look anything like what's pictured in the renders.

Lamping used a lot of qualifiers about market conditions, and about the state of the land, and used a lot of vague language about how, "this might go here, or that might go there."

Plus, it sounds like Cordish (who wasn't involved with the renders) will ultimately design the complex.

And everything south of the Hart Bridge ramps seemed to be more of a PR-ish, "this is the type of thing we could do if the state/city would remove the ramps" kind of thing, rather than an actual site plan.

Great concept, great presentation, but personally, I would have liked a little less sizzle and a little more steak. I think I would have been more excited to learn more about the short-term plan for Lot J and see some detailed renders from Cordish than to see our third set of rearranged Shipyards renders. Would have also liked to know what the timetable was for assessing the condition of Lot J, and at what stage of development the garage would be necessary (3,000 spots over an existing retention pond would have to cost upward of $60 million).

Would also have liked a true update, maybe from Curry, on how and when the $25 million currently allocated for ramp removal will be used, as well as how and when Shipyards remediation would begin.

Hard to get too excited about anything south of the ramps when we're looking at 3+ years, best case scenario, before construction can even begin. Who knows what the market will look like at that time.

That said, the Cordish partnership is a genuinely huge, if expected, announcement.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 02:26:10 PM
Here are the renders, in case anyone missed them:

(https://s31.postimg.cc/4igryvmnf/Db_KF1s_IVMAAvvl_C.jpg)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/lizo7k7ej/Db_KF2_Rg_U8_AEHa_Hi.jpg)

(https://s31.postimg.cc/lvr2dqa8r/Db_KF0x_SVQAAk7_7.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Downtown Osprey on April 19, 2018, 02:34:56 PM
^^ I agree with the statements above. I don't even get excited anymore looking at this renderings. It's been an on-going theme now with these state of the unions. Give me something more realistic.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 02:40:37 PM
Also, big props to Shad Khan.

Iguana has perhaps the most to gain of anyone by the type of windfall that arise from a JEA sale.

Quote
Shad Khan: Selling JEA is a Terrible Idea

Shad Khan, the billionaire owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars and the most important man in the city’s economic development efforts, said Thursday it would be a “terrible idea” to privatize the city-owned electric and water utility, adding a highly influential — if unlikely — voice into the contentious debate.

It’s not the first time Khan — who made the comments during the team’s State of the Franchise event — has weighed in on a divisive city issue. His influence was thought to have been a key reason the city expanded its anti-discrimination law last year to include LGBT residents, and his views on politics have at times been in the national spotlight.

“JEA should stay the way it is,” Khan said. “I have seen this all over the country when you have something that is really a public entity like that getting privatized [it] doesn’t work well for the residents.

“Nobody has asked me, but I think it ought to stay the way it is.”

Full story: http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180419/shad-khan-selling-jea-is-terrible-idea
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on April 19, 2018, 02:48:18 PM
Good to hear from Khan
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on April 19, 2018, 02:52:16 PM
I would think the first thing we would see is the Parking Garage get built.  Otherwise we would lose all that parking for a few seasons until it is.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: minder on April 19, 2018, 03:08:46 PM
This proposal looks like it potentially dwarves other Cordish projects like Ballpark Village in St. Louis.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 19, 2018, 03:28:40 PM
I'd consider everything that we saw today to be purely conceptual.

I have no doubt the Jaguars are going to build something on Lot J, but it probably won't look anything like what's pictured in the renders.

Lamping used a lot of qualifiers about market conditions, and about the state of the land, and used a lot of vague language about how, "this might go here, or that might go there."

Plus, it sounds like Cordish (who wasn't involved with the renders) will ultimately design the complex.

And everything south of the Hart Bridge ramps seemed to be more of a PR-ish, "this is the type of thing we could do if the state/city would remove the ramps" kind of thing, rather than an actual site plan.

Great concept, great presentation, but personally, I would have liked a little less sizzle and a little more steak. I think I would have been more excited to learn more about the short-term plan for Lot J and see some detailed renders from Cordish than to see our third set of rearranged Shipyards renders. Would have also liked to know what the timetable was for assessing the condition of Lot J, and at what stage of development the garage would be necessary (3,000 spots over an existing retention pond would have to cost upward of $60 million).

Would also have liked a true update, maybe from Curry, on how and when the $25 million currently allocated for ramp removal will be used, as well as how and when Shipyards remediation would begin.

Hard to get too excited about anything south of the ramps when we're looking at 3+ years, best case scenario, before construction can even begin. Who knows what the market will look like at that time.

That said, the Cordish partnership is a genuinely huge, if expected, announcement.

Excellent post, Ken. Well put.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: martt12 on April 19, 2018, 03:56:59 PM
What’s supposed to be behind the Veterans Memorial Wall? I see buildings connected.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: minder on April 19, 2018, 03:58:35 PM
http://cordish.com/portfolio/jacksonville-sports-complex

Some better quality images and a tad more information on here. You can also see their other projects.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on April 19, 2018, 04:37:37 PM
It sounds to me that no real progress has occurred and they just threw something together because this State of the Franchise event had rolled around again.

It is all based on the 'market'. Well the market is not deficient in any area: retail, residential, office or hospitality.

One thing that really stuck out: how is there going to be a Convention Center on this site AND one at the old courthouse? 

All that said, I give props to Khan for his comments on JEA.  I would have never expected that.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 19, 2018, 05:55:10 PM
More details:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/khans-new-neighborhood-dollar2-5-billion-vision-for-area-surrounding-stadium

Obviously a public-private partnership, with the city, Jags, and Cordish pitching in.

Encouraging to hear that Beyer, Blinder and Bell is responsible for the master plan.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: heights unknown on April 19, 2018, 08:15:01 PM
That rendering is awe inspiring not to mention breathtaking. Hope it comes to fruition, and I understand that even if any or all of this is approved, it will be constructed in phases. It just seems weird to me that Kahn is building up around the stadium taking up land that was once surface parking lots, and yes the smart thing to do would be to construct parking garages to cover the loss of surface parking, and do that first before commencing with the rest of the development/construction. Looks like a mini urban core or downtown apart from the real urban core west of the stadium. It appears that they want, and are yearning for density in our downtown which includes all types of business, and, office towers were mentioned, but density is the thing that caught my ear/eye that they mentioned; yes, get rid of all of those surface parking lots and fill them in with restaurants, offices, residential towers and residences, stores, and office towers. It appears that Jax finally is on the way. I turned 61 last October and will soon be 62, and I just hope I last and live long enough to see Jax finally mature and come of age...unless, God forbid, we get nuked or some foolish stupid event happens caused by our leaders...GO JACKSONVILLE!!!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: MusicMan on April 20, 2018, 08:29:30 AM
I'm a big fan of Shad Khan but can anyone explain to me why his Florida residence is in Naples, not Jacksonville?

That makes no sense to me.

I also like how his yacht is prominently featured in the renderings!

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Jagsdrew on April 20, 2018, 09:00:22 AM
I love the renderings but this isn't happening this decade. It's going to take a lot of time. To add to Ken's point, it was a lot of general terms as far as development and scope. I'd be keen to understand first the conditions of the soil which would ultimately set the timelines and budget for the whole project.  What we saw was the fully loaded vehicle in the car commercial but that's not the one that's affordable by most.

Notice how the shipyards weren't part of the presentation? I think they have a better understanding of the shipyards' condition but most importantly they want to have as much development near the stadium to benefit their venues. They want the stadium/Daily's place to be the core and work out from there.  Stadium/Daily's Place -> Lot J -> Met Park -> Shipyards -> Downtown.

Did the mayor/city have any reaction to the recent plans? I'm interested to see their initial response.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Jagsdrew on April 20, 2018, 09:09:32 AM
I'm a big fan of Shad Khan but can anyone explain to me why his Florida residence is in Naples, not Jacksonville?

That makes no sense to me.

I also like how his yacht is prominently featured in the renderings!

I think a lot of people don't understand Shad outside of the Jaguars. He is first and foremost a businessman at his company Flex N Gate.  He spends the majority of this time traveling around the world for business meeting with car companies, distributors and manufacturers.  If he's in the states, its not in Jacksonville, rather his HQ in Champaign, Illinois where Flex N Gate is headquartered.  He is not in Jacksonville much.  If you see his boat parked downtown, doesn't mean he's in Jacksonville.  The yacht operates on a schedule so it might be parked there for 3 weeks, but he will only be in Jax for 3 days. I'm sure he is in Jax one more day today and he will be off somewhere by EOD.

The Jaguars are one of his other businesses but he appointed Mark Lamping to run the business operation and Tom Coughlin to run the football operation.  This setup is TOTALLY different than the Weaver's when Wayne was overseeing in full capacity the business and football operation on a day-to-day basis.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 20, 2018, 09:18:46 AM
Khan likely has his Florida base in Naples as a winter home. When it is 40 in Jacksonville in the winter, it is 70 in South Florida. There are also better beaches, boating, opportunities for networking with other ultra wealthy, and private clubs. The ultra wealthy in Florida tend to live in Miami, Palm Beach, Jupiter, and Naples, where they can be around other ultra wealthy people and where there is infrastructure to support their lifestyles.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 20, 2018, 10:04:49 AM
I believe Naples is Khan's primary residence, but yes, he's probably there mainly in the winter months. We're insulated from the whole snowbird thing a lot in Jax as we're pretty year-round, so it's easy to forget how phenomenally lame much of the rest of the state is. SW Florida especially is mainly a haven for retirees and rich northern boat owners. But yes, the Jags account for only about $1.5 billion of his $7 billion dollars (though it's the most high profile part of his empire).

I never understood why Khan doesn't just buy a penthouse here for when he's in town. Using the yacht means planning it out months in advance (and it would take weeks or months to get anywhere else) or renting a place short term. Buying a suite would have to be chump change for him. But it's his prerogative.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 20, 2018, 10:17:53 AM
What's such a lost opportunity with this whole thing is that it should be on the riverfront, not in a parking lot. Estimates for full Shipyards remediation (cleaning the entire property for any use) are around $35 million. The city is already sitting on $13 million earmarked specifically for that purpose, meaning we'd need to come up with $22 million more to get the land shovel ready.

How long have we been sitting on that money, and on the Shipyards, without doing anything to make the property development ready?

Now, instead of spending $22 million to activate the riverfront with a Cordish development, we're looking at spending $60+ million on a 3,000 space parking garage, because the only developable land in the vicinity is the existing stadium parking lot.

Even if some of those parking spots are net new, you've got to think that remediating the Shipyards would be comparable, if not cheaper, than replacing the Lot J parking with a garage. Even if you cleaned up the whole property and figured out use later.

All that said, still a super exciting project, still great for Jacksonville, hopefully we learn a lesson from it.

A few more tidbits that I've picked up:

- The strong, strong desire from the Jaguars is office space, rather than residential, for most of the Lot J tower space. To Bill's point about there not being a market for new office space downtown, the thought is to use the development to lure new business to Jacksonville, perhaps internationally.

- Unlike the Shipyards, the Jags have zero concern about the condition of Lot J. They'd done enough testing to be convinced that construction can be underway in less than 12 months.

- Lot J likely won't be phased. The desire is to build it all out in one shot.

Quote
Did the mayor/city have any reaction to the recent plans? I'm interested to see their initial response.

Curry's been on board for almost a year, since his clandestine trip to meet with Cordish and tour their properties in Baltimore, St. Louis, and Kansas City. He was on the phone with Sam Mousa before the plane even landed looking at ways to find the capital for the project. I think all parties involves (rightfully) do what it takes to make it happen.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 20, 2018, 10:29:30 AM
What's such a lost opportunity with this whole thing is that it should be on the riverfront, not in a parking lot. Estimates for full Shipyards remediation (cleaning the entire property for any use) are around $35 million. The city is already sitting on $13 million earmarked specifically for that purpose, meaning we'd need to come up with $22 million more to get the land shovel ready.

How long have we been sitting on that money, and on the Shipyards, without doing anything to make the property development ready?

Now, instead of spending $22 million to activate the riverfront with a Cordish development, we're looking at spending $60+ million on a 3,000 space parking garage, because the only developable land in the vicinity is the existing stadium parking lot.

Even if some of those parking spots are net new, you've got to think that remediating the Shipyards would be comparable, if not cheaper, than replacing the Lot J parking with a garage. Even if you cleaned up the whole property and figured out use later.

All that said, still a super exciting project, still great for Jacksonville, hopefully we learn a lesson from it.

A few more tidbits that I've picked up:

- The strong, strong desire from the Jaguars is office space, rather than residential, for most of the Lot J tower space. To Bill's point about there not being a market for new office space downtown, the thought is to use the development to lure new business to Jacksonville, perhaps internationally.

- Unlike the Shipyards, the Jags have zero concern about the condition of Lot J. They'd done enough testing to be convinced that construction can be underway in less than 12 months.

- Lot J likely won't be phased. The desire is to build it all out in one shot.

Quote
Did the mayor/city have any reaction to the recent plans? I'm interested to see their initial response.

Curry's been on board for almost a year, since his clandestine trip to meet with Cordish and tour their properties in Baltimore, St. Louis, and Kansas City. He was on the phone with Sam Mousa before the plane even landed looking at ways to find the capital for the project. I think all parties involves (rightfully) do what it takes to make it happen.

The parking lots were always laid out to make future development possible since the current stadium was built. A garage and buildings is a better use of space than a huge empty lot. I don't see any problem with developments there.

As to office space, I really doubt there's demand for more office space in the urban core even if it does involve new companies. Unless it's specific new companies that want space built out ad hoc, but it doesn't sound like that's the case. Methinks this is still very conceptual.

Lot J is also contaminated, and I doubt we know the full extent of it. Again, conceptual.

I do expect that we'll see parts of this come along sooner or later. The partnership with Cordish suggests we'll get a "Live!" at some point. We'll also probably get the garage before anything else. But we're many years off on any of the other stuff.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 20, 2018, 11:10:46 AM
Live! and the garage are about half of it. They'd need a garage regardless of if it were riverfront or a parking lot on Lot J. The site on Lot J is much better, IMO. Actually, the Lot J concept as a whole is better than what has been shown on previous Shipyards concepts. It sucks up a ton of surface parking (great thing) and is more realistic in conceptual layout. However, neither is realistic for Jax's market unless he's moving Flex n Gate's headquarters to town to consume all that office space. Also they probably prefer office over residential because of noise associated with nearby events and concerts.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 20, 2018, 11:51:57 AM
Good points Lake. I think strategically it's smart to go for office in earlier phases. Fairly common in large mixed use projects to have office as a driver of the overall development. For this project to succeed, Khan has to essentially create a new market out of thin air. There is not significant demand for luxury residential, retail, dining in DT, particularly by the stadium. Nor is there a shortage of office space downtown. With the amount of money Khan has to his name, and the amount he stands to gain by the redevelopment, he can provide substantial discounts or incentives to lure in a new HQ or corporate relocations that would not ordinarily come to DT Jax. If he is able to pull in one or two, the chips start to fall into place for everything else.

That said, I still have some doubts about the viability of the project. I think a lot of it rests on how committed Khan is to making it happen. If he is in it for the long term, and creates spectacular amenities, public spaces, and world class design, as well as subsidies to initial users; this can happen earlier than people realize. I just hope it is geared towards a realistic market, not the aforementioned ultra wealthy, Four Seasons type users.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 20, 2018, 12:02:40 PM
Dan Gilbert improved the DT Detroit market for his dreams by relocating his company's headquarters there. That's one thing Khan can do, although he probably doesn't want the negative impact it would cause in Illinois.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxVision on April 20, 2018, 12:30:09 PM
I dont know the logistics of what these organizations and companies need but in the rendering there are two smaller office buildings near potential apartments between TIAA Field and the Baseball Grounds. These buildings could be home offices to the Jax sports council and other smaller sport organizations in Jax like the Sharks, Icemen, Armada. The other Building could become the HQ for our very own Jax based Fanatics as they are the official merch supplier for all major sports teams in the country.

The Lot J area could get a international company to come in. I know a lot of business is moving HQs to campuses or they dont need a lot of space DT but Khan has connections to London and other countries that could land someone we aren't thinking about to make North America HQ here. Either way it will be some time as we have seen projects in the past never develop or just take years to break ground.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 20, 2018, 12:56:50 PM
^I don't think this will ever happen. Khan's extremely sentimental about Urbana (where he moved from Pakistan to attend college and later headquartered Flex N' Gate), he considers Chicago to be his home, and his political and economic ties in Illinois dwarf his Jacksonville ties ten times over. Flex N' Gate has economic incentives on top of economic incentives where they're at, and actually partner with the state of Illinois on certain facilities. I think there's a better chance of seeing the Urbana jaguars before we see Jacksonville Flex N' Gate.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 20, 2018, 01:24:12 PM
Yes that's basically how I feel about this project, the Shipyards in general, the District and JTA's Skyway modification proposal as currently constructed. All fool's gold that's years away from reality or ever happening as illustrated and being marketed. For the development proposals, Jax couldn't fill that much combined new office and luxury residential space now even if it wanted too. For the Skyway, the application of the technology doesn't appear to fit with the reality of the environmental context. At this point, my excitement remains with the smaller short term viable projects that luckily continue moving forward.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: RattlerGator on April 20, 2018, 02:25:17 PM
Leave the board for months at a time and come back to the same skepticism. Seems like only yesterday many here were saying there's no way they're taking down that roadway, there's no way the state is kicking in money in the short term to take down that roadway, there's no way, no way, no way.

((( sigh )))

One thing we may need to hope for is with Trump's winning strategy (y'all doubted that, too) and with multiple foreign corporations now needing a greater American presence to avoid tariffs, etc., that some outfit (or three) now in London or elsewhere will set up shop in this new development.

The Jaguars have confidently presented a $2.5 billion plan, introduced the Cordish Company to us, and told us Beyer Blinder Belle Architects & Planners LLP developed the master development plan.

They aren't blowing smoke. It's going to happen. The riverfront is proving to be too much of an immediate headache. Spend that money on Lot J now, get the development rolling, focus that riverfront more on park space -- remediation becomes a much, much simpler problem then.

Density, density, density -- right? Y'all should be jumping for joy. Density we will get.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 20, 2018, 02:32:43 PM
Leave the board for months at a time and come back to the same skepticism. Seems like only yesterday many here were saying there's no way they're taking down that roadway, there's no way the state is kicking in money in the short term to take down that roadway, there's no way, no way, no way.

((( sigh )))

One thing we may need to hope for is with Trump's winning strategy (y'all doubted that, too) and with multiple foreign corporations now needing a greater American presence to avoid tariffs, etc., that some outfit (or three) now in London or elsewhere will set up shop in this new development.

The Jaguars have confidently presented a $2.5 billion plan, introduced the Cordish Company to us, and told us Beyer Blinder Belle Architects & Planners LLP developed the master development plan.

They aren't blowing smoke. It's going to happen. The riverfront is proving to be too much of an immediate headache. Spend that money on Lot J now, get the development rolling, focus that riverfront more on park space -- remediation becomes a much, much simpler problem then.

Density, density, density -- right? Y'all should be jumping for joy. Density we will get.

Folks have been banging that gong for years, and we're still not close to any of this stuff happening.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 20, 2018, 02:48:57 PM
Hasn't it been like two years since the idea of demolishing the Hart ramps first hit the press? We're still years away from seeing that street plan in the renderings become reality. Btw, I like the Lot J renderings. I'm just a realist in that the master plan shown won't be built.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: MusicMan on April 20, 2018, 10:56:02 PM
If there's one thing we've learned, a snails pace is faster than Jacksonville's pace.  Wasn't it 1000 days ago Peter Rummell was awarded development right to the JEA South Bank parcel, and he hasn't even closed on the real estate YET.......................

RattlerGator has a long streak of mis-predicting things, so don't hold your breath.

"Trump's winning strategy", did that include the first Democratic Senator from Alabama in 25 years?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: heights unknown on April 21, 2018, 12:28:59 AM
I'm a big fan of Shad Khan but can anyone explain to me why his Florida residence is in Naples, not Jacksonville?

That makes no sense to me.

I also like how his yacht is prominently featured in the renderings!

I think a lot of people don't understand Shad outside of the Jaguars. He is first and foremost a businessman at his company Flex N Gate.  He spends the majority of this time traveling around the world for business meeting with car companies, distributors and manufacturers.  If he's in the states, its not in Jacksonville, rather his HQ in Champaign, Illinois where Flex N Gate is headquartered.  He is not in Jacksonville much.  If you see his boat parked downtown, doesn't mean he's in Jacksonville.  The yacht operates on a schedule so it might be parked there for 3 weeks, but he will only be in Jax for 3 days. I'm sure he is in Jax one more day today and he will be off somewhere by EOD.

The Jaguars are one of his other businesses but he appointed Mark Lamping to run the business operation and Tom Coughlin to run the football operation.  This setup is TOTALLY different than the Weaver's when Wayne was overseeing in full capacity the business and football operation on a day-to-day basis.


Makes sense to me; how did you acquire this info? But it makes a lot of BUSINESS sense!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: jaxjags on April 21, 2018, 12:48:05 PM
Did a little on line research. In KC Cordish  has opened the One Light, a 26 story luxury apartment building. The rents I could find are $2.00 sq. ft. or $1615 for a 809 sq. ft. one bedroom. Can Jax support those kinds of rents. Also there we city incentives. The article implies these incentives were $3 million more than the ones below.

Light Two is under construction and the KC Business Journal provided this:

1. 300 units in 18 stories over top a 6 story garage, retail and office space.
2. $105 million total and Cordish is covering $88 million.
3. City is paying approx. $17 million (although my calculation puts it closer to $20 million)
4. Incentive is $27,260 per parking space and $16,666 per apartment unit.
5. Rents also in the $1.90-$2.00 per sq. ft.

In this set-up City and Cordish providing the equity. Where would Iguana fit in at Lot J?

Just a few thoughts and questions.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on April 21, 2018, 01:15:31 PM
^^ How does $2 a foot compare to The Strand? That is the closest comparable.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 21, 2018, 05:37:10 PM
^Closer to $1.50 than $2.00. If Jax could really support a glut of rents at $2/square foot, there would be cranes all over downtown. It can't, which is why incentives are needed for projects despite the low vacancy rates.

https://www.thestrandjacksonville.com/jacksonville/the-strand/
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: billy on April 22, 2018, 06:26:52 AM
Will there ever be a Flex N Gate plant in Duval County?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: RattlerGator on April 22, 2018, 07:52:26 AM
If there's one thing we've learned, a snails pace is faster than Jacksonville's pace.  Wasn't it 1000 days ago Peter Rummell was awarded development right to the JEA South Bank parcel, and he hasn't even closed on the real estate YET.......................

RattlerGator has a long streak of mis-predicting things, so don't hold your breath.

"Trump's winning strategy", did that include the first Democratic Senator from Alabama in 25 years?

Ahhhh, I'm basking in the love. Basking, I tellz ya. A long streak? Okay, but the fact that Donald Trump as *your* President is problematic gives me great satisfaction. Day 458 of the Trump Administration -- is that, too, a long streak MM ? ? ?

I also love how people on this board, apparently versed in development processes, conveniently forget how that process plays out over years . . . when necessary for snark. But MusicMan, I'll get back with you after the midterms on that winning strategy. So far, I'm sitting pretty. BIGLY pretty, if you knows what I meanz.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: RattlerGator on April 22, 2018, 08:03:57 AM
Hasn't it been like two years since the idea of demolishing the Hart ramps first hit the press? We're still years away from seeing that street plan in the renderings become reality. Btw, I like the Lot J renderings. I'm just a realist in that the master plan shown won't be built.

Years away, Ennis? I'm curious: how many years would you say? Because I seem to remember you (or someone else here, I'm getting old -- if necessary, forgive me) insinuating we wouldn't be getting *any* state money for that, or certainly not money any time soon . . . and we now have it. Nor would we get federal money any time soon. And, Ennis, we're going to get that federal money too. Soon. Take that to the bank.

So . . . how many years, my man?

And I ask that from this perspective: you seem to have accepted that it *will* get done. So the glass has moved from half-empty to half-full. Progress, at last. Congratulations!

As for the renderings: it isn't unusual, is it, for the end product to not perfectly reflect the master plan? I mean, Shad Khan's team have been masters of get-her-done flexibility but I don't sense much dap being given here for that. It's a tremendously positive sign for Jacksonville that such a positive, professional skillset resides with the owner of our NFL franchise . . . and our Mayor.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 22, 2018, 08:29:04 AM
Hasn't it been like two years since the idea of demolishing the Hart ramps first hit the press? We're still years away from seeing that street plan in the renderings become reality. Btw, I like the Lot J renderings. I'm just a realist in that the master plan shown won't be built.

Years away, Ennis? I'm curious: how many years would you say? Because I seem to remember you (or someone else here, I'm getting old -- if necessary, forgive me) insinuating we wouldn't be getting *any* state money for that, or certainly not money any time soon . . . and we now have it. Nor would we get federal money any time soon. And, Ennis, we're going to get that federal money too. Soon. Take that to the bank.

So . . . how many years, my man?

And I ask that from this perspective: you seem to have accepted that it *will* get done. So the glass has moved from half-empty to half-full. Progress, at last. Congratulations!

As for the renderings: it isn't unusual, is it, for the end product to not perfectly reflect the master plan? I mean, Shad Khan's team have been masters of get-her-done flexibility but I don't sense much dap being given here for that. It's a tremendously positive sign for Jacksonville that such a positive, professional skillset resides with the owner of our NFL franchise . . . and our Mayor.

Looking at just the ramps, it’s been a year and a half and we’re still trying to put the money together. Nothing south of Gator Bowl Blvd happens without that. And that’s not the only hurdle. If not years, how long do you think it’ll take?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 22, 2018, 09:02:34 AM
Hasn't it been like two years since the idea of demolishing the Hart ramps first hit the press? We're still years away from seeing that street plan in the renderings become reality. Btw, I like the Lot J renderings. I'm just a realist in that the master plan shown won't be built.

Years away, Ennis? I'm curious: how many years would you say? Because I seem to remember you (or someone else here, I'm getting old -- if necessary, forgive me) insinuating we wouldn't be getting *any* state money for that, or certainly not money any time soon . . . and we now have it. Nor would we get federal money any time soon. And, Ennis, we're going to get that federal money too. Soon. Take that to the bank.

So . . . how many years, my man?

I said that around 2 years ago and we still don't have the money to actually physically start demolishing. Hell, we still need to do a PD&E study. If we're lucky, maybe in five years or so, we'll be seeing this project wrap up. So add them up and that's 7 years since the original announcement.  So yes, we're years away.

Quote
And I ask that from this perspective: you seem to have accepted that it *will* get done. So the glass has moved from half-empty to half-full. Progress, at last. Congratulations!

Accepted what? Eventually the bridge would have to be rebuilt or torn down anyway. The idea of demolishing it didn't begin with Curry and Khan. That's been something I've heard in local planning circles since I moved to Jax back in 2003.

Quote
As for the renderings: it isn't unusual, is it, for the end product to not perfectly reflect the master plan? I mean, Shad Khan's team have been masters of get-her-done flexibility but I don't sense much dap being given here for that. It's a tremendously positive sign for Jacksonville that such a positive, professional skillset resides with the owner of our NFL franchise . . . and our Mayor.

I have no problem with the concept. I think some people here expect things to happen overnight if Curry and Khan snap their fingers and that's why there may be some disappointment in the conceptual nature of what's illustrated every year. They're realizing what some of us already know....we're years away from seeing this stuff actually being built and completed.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: I-10east on April 22, 2018, 08:53:46 PM
Those new unis are SO bland. They chose to put teal (JAX's favorite color) on the back burner again, just like before...The only thing concerning the new unis that they got right was the all black helmet. They should have left the unis alone, and change the two tone helmet to what we have now. Overwhelmingly, hardly anyone was clamoring for a full uni change, mainly Shad and Coughlin. #moneygrab
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaGoaT on April 22, 2018, 09:36:15 PM
They’re going to start putting brands on NFL jerseys like soccer jerseys that’s why the new uniforms are so bland.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: RattlerGator on April 23, 2018, 07:56:44 AM
It won't be anything close to five years, Ennis. They have the money for the PD&E and you have noticed, I presume, that Trump is President.

Things will move faster, much faster unless there is some incredible crash . . . and I know y'all aren't hoping for that.

Right?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 23, 2018, 08:36:00 AM
A PD&E study alone could take a couple of years to complete! It's not as simple as securing money (which we still don't have what's necessary). Even with 100% funds, there's still a timeline associated with the process.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 23, 2018, 09:17:23 AM
^Yeah, I'm totally prepared to bet one Aardwolf beer of choice that this thing is not built out come April 2023.

We know it won't get started next year, as they're planning on selling parking passes for Lot J for the 2019 season.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 24, 2018, 05:38:57 PM
^Weird, I've heard that they're targeting somewhere between summer and fall 2019 to begin Lot J construction, but I guess they might start with the garage.

Like I mentioned previously, I'm also continuing to hear that office space, not residential or hotel, is what Khan/Lamping consider to be the key to Lot J.

Whether there's a market for it is clearly a whole different matter, but the magic number that the Jags are targeting is 2,000 jobs in and around Lot J, between office and service.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 24, 2018, 06:11:55 PM
It's not like this city is Manhattan. Both the District and the Jags proposals include a lot of office space. There's also a ton of empty office space in the Northbank. Which one will win and who will miss out?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: MusicMan on April 25, 2018, 08:40:28 AM
Jacksonville Chamber of Commerce should set up a satellite office in Silicon Valley and start recruiting corporations to consider relocating to Jacksonville.

Not sure how we landed Fidelity but there have to be plenty of candidates for relocation out there who would love the idea of "cheap" land, no state income tax, and affordable lifestyle choices for their employees.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 25, 2018, 10:05:50 AM
It's not like this city is Manhattan. Both the District and the Jags proposals include a lot of office space. There's also a ton of empty office space in the Northbank. Which one will win and who will miss out?

Call me an optimist, but if and when new office space opens up at Lot J and/or District, I think it will come at the expense of the suburbs, not the Northbank. The suburban market has already started to get really tight, particularly in the last year, with limited options and escalating prices. Rising tides have a tendency to raise all ships, and as downtown improves and new projects like these are potentially built out, I'd hope that all office space downtown would become more desirable, not just the newly added space.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 10:56:15 AM
It's not like this city is Manhattan. Both the District and the Jags proposals include a lot of office space. There's also a ton of empty office space in the Northbank. Which one will win and who will miss out?

Call me an optimist, but if and when new office space opens up at Lot J and/or District, I think it will come at the expense of the suburbs, not the Northbank. The suburban market has already started to get really tight, particularly in the last year, with limited options and escalating prices. Rising tides have a tendency to raise all ships, and as downtown improves and new projects like these are potentially built out, I'd hope that all office space downtown would become more desirable, not just the newly added space.

Downtown still has an office vacancy rate of 12.5%. The market isn't exactly bursting at the seems right now.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on April 25, 2018, 11:36:55 AM
One assumes that Iguana and Rummell have designs on luring companies to relocate not just from the suburbs but from outside the market...otherwise the profusion of office space makes no market sense.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 25, 2018, 11:45:39 AM
It's not like this city is Manhattan. Both the District and the Jags proposals include a lot of office space. There's also a ton of empty office space in the Northbank. Which one will win and who will miss out?



Call me an optimist, but if and when new office space opens up at Lot J and/or District, I think it will come at the expense of the suburbs, not the Northbank. The suburban market has already started to get really tight, particularly in the last year, with limited options and escalating prices. Rising tides have a tendency to raise all ships, and as downtown improves and new projects like these are potentially built out, I'd hope that all office space downtown would become more desirable, not just the newly added space.

Downtown still has an office vacancy rate of 12.5%. The market isn't exactly bursting at the seems right now.

Right now, no. If downtown keeps improving at the rate that it is and one or two of these shiny new projects fall into place, I absolutely think the northbank will be able to poach from the 'burbs. The bar has been set very low, for a very long time.

To Wacca's point above, Iguana is absolutely targeting companies outside of market.

And let's not forget that not all of the space will be net new.

JEA is looking for somewhere to put 800 employees, as their existing office tower has reached end-of-life and is likely coming down.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on April 25, 2018, 11:57:02 AM
One assumes that Iguana and Rummell have designs on luring companies to relocate not just from the suburbs but from outside the market...otherwise the profusion of office space makes no market sense.

Correct. Khan isn't interested in growing downtown at the expense of the suburbs. That doesn't add value to his investment. Jacksonville currently has no premier, urban, walkable, live/work/play environment necessary to attract the sort of enterprise that recruits young talent from outside of town. So Khan would like to build one next door to the football stadium in order to create a marketplace of NFL fans to sell tickets to. Grow Jacksonville, grow the Jaguars.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 12:00:23 PM
It's not like this city is Manhattan. Both the District and the Jags proposals include a lot of office space. There's also a ton of empty office space in the Northbank. Which one will win and who will miss out?



Call me an optimist, but if and when new office space opens up at Lot J and/or District, I think it will come at the expense of the suburbs, not the Northbank. The suburban market has already started to get really tight, particularly in the last year, with limited options and escalating prices. Rising tides have a tendency to raise all ships, and as downtown improves and new projects like these are potentially built out, I'd hope that all office space downtown would become more desirable, not just the newly added space.

Downtown still has an office vacancy rate of 12.5%. The market isn't exactly bursting at the seems right now.

Right now, no. If downtown keeps improving at the rate that it is and one or two of these shiny new projects fall into place, I absolutely think the northbank will be able to poach from the 'burbs. The bar has been set very low, for a very long time.

To Wacca's point above, Iguana is absolutely targeting companies outside of market.

And let's not forget that not all of the space will be net new.

JEA is looking for somewhere to put 800 employees, as their existing office tower has reached end-of-life and is likely coming down.

Outside the market is one thing, poaching from our own suburbs is another.

There are very few real businesses in the Jax area outside Duval County, and those in the Duval suburbs are already paying their taxes here. It's not worth the many millions in incentives this project would take if all it accomplishes is moving some company from part of the municipality to another (and still isn't in the downtown core). There are many better ways to invest in downtown development.

What's the evidence that they're recruiting outside companies, especially considering this is all so conjectural right now?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 25, 2018, 02:07:18 PM
What's the evidence that they're recruiting outside companies, especially considering this is all so conjectural right now?

I read it on Taste of the Town Center.

(https://snag.gy/48Mlzh.jpg)

(or heard from a fairly reliable source that Khan has been pitching businesses on Jacksonville for years, both nationally and internationally, for the Shipyards development, and may have some takers lined up if/when it ever gets built)

Of anyone in this city, Khan is the one guy that I wouldn't underestimate under any circumstance. He's one of the most well-connected men on the planet, with deep ties in London, Chicago, and the Middle East.

I don't think he's spending his own money on an office tower in hopes that Larry's Giant Subs moves in 30 employees.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 25, 2018, 07:31:40 PM
It's not like this city is Manhattan. Both the District and the Jags proposals include a lot of office space. There's also a ton of empty office space in the Northbank. Which one will win and who will miss out?



Call me an optimist, but if and when new office space opens up at Lot J and/or District, I think it will come at the expense of the suburbs, not the Northbank. The suburban market has already started to get really tight, particularly in the last year, with limited options and escalating prices. Rising tides have a tendency to raise all ships, and as downtown improves and new projects like these are potentially built out, I'd hope that all office space downtown would become more desirable, not just the newly added space.

Downtown still has an office vacancy rate of 12.5%. The market isn't exactly bursting at the seems right now.

Right now, no. If downtown keeps improving at the rate that it is and one or two of these shiny new projects fall into place, I absolutely think the northbank will be able to poach from the 'burbs. The bar has been set very low, for a very long time.

To Wacca's point above, Iguana is absolutely targeting companies outside of market.

And let's not forget that not all of the space will be net new.

JEA is looking for somewhere to put 800 employees, as their existing office tower has reached end-of-life and is likely coming down.
JEA already has a site in the heart of the Northbank. Assuming they aren't sold, it would be a loss for the Northbank to lose them to either the Shipyards, Lot J or the District.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 25, 2018, 07:36:50 PM
What's the evidence that they're recruiting outside companies, especially considering this is all so conjectural right now?

I read it on Taste of the Town Center.

(https://snag.gy/48Mlzh.jpg)

(or heard from a fairly reliable source that Khan has been pitching businesses on Jacksonville for years, both nationally and internationally, for the Shipyards development, and may have some takers lined up if/when it ever gets built)

Of anyone in this city, Khan is the one guy that I wouldn't underestimate under any circumstance. He's one of the most well-connected men on the planet, with deep ties in London, Chicago, and the Middle East.

I don't think he's spending his own money on an office tower in hopes that Larry's Giant Subs moves in 30 employees.
Where did it say that Khan would spend his own money on an office tower? I doubt that happens.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 25, 2018, 08:37:21 PM
JEA already has a site in the heart of the Northbank. Assuming they aren't sold, it would be a loss for the Northbank to lose them to either the Shipyards, Lot J or the District.

Someone might be able to correct me, but to the best of my knowledge, there's no formal agreement in place, and no movement on a land swap has taken place since last summer. JEA and the city agreed that the parcel adjacent to the courthouse would be worth exploring further (JEA was talking about bringing CBRE in to begin due diligence), but I think the sales talk might have temporarily stalled that.

JEA would be a terrible fit for Khan's project (if anyone's spent time there, it's not exactly a Jacksonville Live! crowd), but I could see the District group making a play for JEA. JEA is looking for approximately 200,000 sf. The District is proposing 200,000 square feet.

All that said, JEA and the city work very closely together, and I think it behooves JEA to stay within earshot of City Hall. I bet they take that spot.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 25, 2018, 09:55:27 PM
It would behoove the city and its downtown revitalization efforts to keep JEA and its 800 employees in the Northbank. Them moving to the District would be as devastating to the Northbank as them moving to Baymeadows.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 25, 2018, 10:46:58 PM
What's the evidence that they're recruiting outside companies, especially considering this is all so conjectural right now?

I read it on Taste of the Town Center.

(https://snag.gy/48Mlzh.jpg)

(or heard from a fairly reliable source that Khan has been pitching businesses on Jacksonville for years, both nationally and internationally, for the Shipyards development, and may have some takers lined up if/when it ever gets built)

Of anyone in this city, Khan is the one guy that I wouldn't underestimate under any circumstance. He's one of the most well-connected men on the planet, with deep ties in London, Chicago, and the Middle East.

I don't think he's spending his own money on an office tower in hopes that Larry's Giant Subs moves in 30 employees.
Where did it say that Khan would spend his own money on an office tower? I doubt that happens.

Khan’s not spending his own money. The money that’s spent on it will be from the Jags’ budget. Plus whatever we chip in.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 26, 2018, 12:39:53 AM
^From all the language that's been used, it's going to be your classic Cordish development, co-financed by the Jaguars and Cordish, with heavy public subsidy. If past projects are any indication, Cordish will push for incentives totaling 25-30% of project cost, likely financed by using new taxes from within the development to pay off bonds used for construction.

The second phase of Ballpark Village in St. Louis (Mark Lamping oversaw construction of the original BallPark Village) is actually a really interesting case study for Jacksonville. A lot of parallels, including a 10-story office component in downtown St. Louis where the vacancy rate is even higher than downtown Jacksonville (17%). The idea was that the new office space - the first office tower built in downtown St. Louis in 30 years - would add net new jobs to the urban core. What actually ended up happening was Ballpark Village cannibalized other jobs downtown, most notably PricewaterhouseCoopers, who moved their entire St. Louis staff from Bank of America Plaza to Ballpark Village.

It'll be a risky proposal either way, in that Cordish usually positions themselves to where, if a development doesn't take off as expected, the city is still on the hook to make those payments. Kansas City needed to pull millions from their general fund in the middle of the recession for this very reason.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on April 26, 2018, 05:30:46 AM
I get the impression none of this is far along enough in concept to actually know if this master plan will happen, much less what the exact mix of uses will be, how they'll be funded and what the funding mix percentages will shake out too. All we really know is that it will take a ton of public money. Nevertheless, if office space does happen here or at the District (like the Ballpark Village situation) it will likely eat it from another downtown building or company already present in the local area. I'm not saying it shouldn't be pursued because of that. I'm just putting it out there that with real estate, there's typically winners and losers.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 26, 2018, 08:21:42 AM
Regarding office, there has never been a better time to recruit businesses from tax heavy states. The Trump tax plan's cap of $10k on personal state/local income, property, and sales tax is going to lead to a huge migration out of tax heavy states like New York and California. This was already happening pre-Trump tax plan, but is expected to accelerate rapidly.

Khan has the potential to offer brand new, build to suit, Class AA office space on prime real estate. If he, COJ, and the state are willing to offer strong incentives, along with the promise of being part of an exciting mixed-use project, he should have no trouble finding a few large office users from out of state. Khan being a member of the billionaires club gives him access to all kinds of intel and connections, that should make this much easier than you realize. I have a client that is also a multi-billionaire (outside of Jax) and he makes things happen with ease, mostly through his social network and through the ability to float large sums of his own cash to make deals happen. We will see what kind of Mojo Khan really has in the next few years.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Bill Hoff on April 26, 2018, 08:32:26 AM
Looks like he's spending some mojo in England:
http://www.espn.com/soccer/england/story/3472536/fa-receives-offer-to-buy-wembley;-nfl-backs-shad-khan-as-new-owner
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 26, 2018, 08:42:33 AM
That is some serious Mojo. Wembley is the national stadium in England where they play all of their National Soccer Team games and Cup championships. Hopefully he does not use this as leverage to extort COJ into bending over backwards for anything he wants.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: comncense on April 26, 2018, 08:48:36 AM
Here's a press release from Shad to Fulham fans on their website:
http://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2018/april/26/chairman-statement

"If my ownership interests were to include Wembley Stadium, it would protect the Jaguars’ position in London at a time when other NFL teams are understandably becoming more interested in this great city. And the stronger the Jaguars are in London, the more stable and promising the Jaguars’ future will be in Jacksonville."
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 26, 2018, 08:53:04 AM
Here's a press release from Shad to Fulham fans on their website:
http://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2018/april/26/chairman-statement

"If my ownership interests were to include Wembley Stadium, it would protect the Jaguars’ position in London at a time when other NFL teams are understandably becoming more interested in this great city. And the stronger the Jaguars are in London, the more stable and promising the Jaguars’ future will be in Jacksonville."

That is such a power play move and genius on his end. Gotta give it up to him.

Now let’s see what he can pull of in Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 26, 2018, 09:09:37 AM
Here's a press release from Shad to Fulham fans on their website:
http://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2018/april/26/chairman-statement

"If my ownership interests were to include Wembley Stadium, it would protect the Jaguars’ position in London at a time when other NFL teams are understandably becoming more interested in this great city. And the stronger the Jaguars are in London, the more stable and promising the Jaguars’ future will be in Jacksonville."

That is such a power play move and genius on his end. Gotta give it up to him.

Now let’s see what he can pull of in Jax.

Agreed! This is a smart move. I hope the Jags start playing at least one pre-season game in London as well or petition for a 5th preseason game like the Hall of Fame game teams. It will be a great source of revenue for the team.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 26, 2018, 09:20:40 AM
Khan's statement about the potential purchase, via Jaguars.com:

Quote
I am very pleased to learn today that The Football Association board of directors received our offer to purchase Wembley Stadium, our home away from home in London, from the FA.

One of the many benefits of the Jaguars’ commitment to London has been our partnership with the FA and Wembley Stadium.  Over the past several years, it became clearer to us and the FA that the idea of our purchase of Wembley Stadium made a lot of sense for all of us.

For the FA, it would mean Wembley Stadium returning to private ownership, permitting the FA to direct its full attention to its mandate to develop talent and serve the game with the vast resources it would realize from the sale.  For the Jaguars, it would deliver another – and very significant – asset and local revenue source that would further strengthen our investment in London, which as everyone knows is crucial to the Jaguars’ continued sustainability in Jacksonville.  In every respect, the Jaguars’ standing in London would be improved and dramatically enhanced if we are fortunate to be approved as the new owner and steward of Wembley Stadium, and that’s good news for the Jaguars and all of Jacksonville.

If you’ve had the occasion to join us for one of our Jaguars home games in London, you know that Wembley Stadium is a very special place.  Our commitment to the FA is we will own and operate Wembley with the care and respect it deserves, always being mindful that it is – and will continue to be – the home of England’s national teams as well as the ultimate destination for the world’s top entertainment and sports event, including Jaguars and NFL games.  And today’s announcement is additional evidence that we are committed to create and enhance new revenue streams to boost the Jaguars, such as the incredibly successful Daily’s Place and the project we revealed last week with The Cordish Companies on the proposed development around EverBank Field.

Today’s news changes none of what we envision for the long-term promise for the Jaguars here in Jax, and it changes nothing as to the goals we have for your downtown.  If anything, today’s news is the embodiment of the ethos we adopted several years ago of being proud, bold and committed.

We look forward to the process ahead with The Football Association and our pick in the first round of the NFL Draft, occurring very late this evening.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 26, 2018, 09:36:00 AM
Based on his track record to date in English football, I'm not so sure I'd want him to purchase the national stadium. I might be tempted to change my mind if he agrees to instal the Michael Jackson statue, though...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 26, 2018, 09:42:25 AM
Based on his track record to date in English football, I'm not so sure I'd want him to purchase the national stadium. I might be tempted to change my mind if he agrees to instal the Michael Jackson statue, though...

He got off to a bad start with both Fulham and the Jags, but has both headed in the right direction. Fulham have around a 50% shot to get back to the Premier League this year. I can’t see Levy (owner of Tottenham) and others letting him buy the national stadium with out a fight though.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 26, 2018, 09:49:33 AM
Based on his track record to date in English football, I'm not so sure I'd want him to purchase the national stadium. I might be tempted to change my mind if he agrees to instal the Michael Jackson statue, though...

He got off to a bad start with both Fulham and the Jags, but has both headed in the right direction. Fulham have around a 50% shot to get back to the Premier League this year. I can’t see Levy (owner of Tottenham) and others letting him buy the national stadium with out a fight though.

Well, Fulham haven't been promoted yet. And even if they are, it's no guarantee of survival.

Levy (and Lewis - the other owner of Spurs) have no say in the purchase of Wembley Stadium, as it's owned by the FA. I think the biggest complaint any of these billionaires could make is if they wanted to buy the stadium and decided that Khan was being given preferential treatment or something (kind of like what happened with the Olympic stadium and WHU). In any event, Spurs will (or should be) playing in Tottenham again once the new season starts.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 26, 2018, 10:06:15 AM
My bad. Forgot Spurs were building a new stadium. Also didn’t realize that they have a 10 year contract to play NFL games in their new stadium. So buying Wembley may not be as savvy of a move as it originally looked.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 26, 2018, 10:10:20 AM
My bad. Forgot Spurs were building a new stadium. Also didn’t realize that they have a 10 year contract to play NFL games in their new stadium. So buying Wembley may not be as savvy of a move as it originally looked.

I was a bit confused about Khan's motivations, to be honest. I also am not 100% on what the deal is with NFL games in London going forward. As you mentioned, there is a deal in place for the new Tottenham stadium to host games. Currently, games are played at Wembley and Twickenham stadium. Not sure if that means there will be games at all three stadiums or if it will just be Wembley and Tottenham or maybe just Tottenham.

Of course, I was mainly joking about Khan. Except for the bit about the Michael Jackson statue - I'd love to see that at Wembley!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: blizz01 on April 26, 2018, 12:50:38 PM
It's high time they establish a direct flight from JAX to Heathrow....
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kiva on April 26, 2018, 01:16:37 PM
It's high time they establish a direct flight from JAX to Heathrow....
Norwegian Air has flights from Orlando to Gatwick. Return flights in May are as low as $450.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 26, 2018, 01:29:56 PM
My bad. Forgot Spurs were building a new stadium. Also didn’t realize that they have a 10 year contract to play NFL games in their new stadium. So buying Wembley may not be as savvy of a move as it originally looked.

I was a bit confused about Khan's motivations, to be honest. I also am not 100% on what the deal is with NFL games in London going forward. As you mentioned, there is a deal in place for the new Tottenham stadium to host games. Currently, games are played at Wembley and Twickenham stadium. Not sure if that means there will be games at all three stadiums or if it will just be Wembley and Tottenham or maybe just Tottenham.

Of course, I was mainly joking about Khan. Except for the bit about the Michael Jackson statue - I'd love to see that at Wembley!

I'm not sure what the contractual agreements really are. Wembley is supposed to get 2 games a year through 2020 with the Jags playing there once each year. Tottenham is supposed to get 2 games a year from 2018-2027.

But the 2018 schedule has only 3 NFL games in London; 2 at Wembley and 1 at Tottenham.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 26, 2018, 01:32:56 PM
The NFL has an agreement to play games in Tottenham’s new stadium. However, the Jags prefer to play at Wembley. The area around Wembley allows for a “tailgating” experience.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 26, 2018, 01:34:10 PM
My bad. Forgot Spurs were building a new stadium. Also didn’t realize that they have a 10 year contract to play NFL games in their new stadium. So buying Wembley may not be as savvy of a move as it originally looked.

I was a bit confused about Khan's motivations, to be honest. I also am not 100% on what the deal is with NFL games in London going forward. As you mentioned, there is a deal in place for the new Tottenham stadium to host games. Currently, games are played at Wembley and Twickenham stadium. Not sure if that means there will be games at all three stadiums or if it will just be Wembley and Tottenham or maybe just Tottenham.

Of course, I was mainly joking about Khan. Except for the bit about the Michael Jackson statue - I'd love to see that at Wembley!

I'm not sure what the contractual agreements really are. Wembley is supposed to get 2 games a year through 2020 with the Jags playing there once each year. Tottenham is supposed to get 2 games a year from 2018-2027.

But the 2018 schedule has only 3 NFL games in London; 2 at Wembley and 1 at Tottenham.

The talk is that they would move to 5 games starting next season.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 26, 2018, 01:38:46 PM
It's high time they establish a direct flight from JAX to Heathrow....

This would be great! I always wondered if JIA has to expand “B” Gate before Jax could see flights to London. I would be happy with just flying in and out of Gatwick.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on April 26, 2018, 01:59:27 PM
JIA actually has customs already and an international gate that leads to it (C5). Next time you’re there and bored go over by C1, and you’ll see the customs exit tunnel.

Now, I don’t know how many people this area can process, but it’s there.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Papa33 on April 26, 2018, 02:12:40 PM
Does anyone know the sum total of Kahn's investments in the stadium upgrades (video boards, US Assure Club seats); Daily's Place; proposed Lot J investment and how that compares to what he is planning to spend on Wembley?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 26, 2018, 02:30:14 PM
JIA actually has customs already and an international gate that leads to it (C5). Next time you’re there and bored go over by C1, and you’ll see the customs exit tunnel.

Now, I don’t know how many people this area can process, but it’s there.

I know that there is a customs exit tunnel at the C gate. My thought process is that you would like need to move Southwest and American to B gate in order to accommodate the flow of international travel at JIA. It is essentially what New Orleans is going to do with their expansion from my understanding.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 26, 2018, 02:30:34 PM
Does anyone know the sum total of Kahn's investments in the stadium upgrades (video boards, US Assure Club seats); Daily's Place; proposed Lot J investment and how that compares to what he is planning to spend on Wembley?

In terms of stadium upgrades, over $100 million.

Apples and oranges though (investing in a city-owned stadium in Jacksonville vs. purchasing Wembley outright).
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 26, 2018, 02:50:02 PM
I think it really speaks to how much Jacksonville has grown in confidence that most people people are taking this story in stride and not panicking.

The Jags rightfully consider London, specifically their home UK stadium at Wembley, to be a huge, supplemental part of keeping the franchise healthy and competitive in Jacksonville. They've also been frustrated by the lack of flexibility with scheduling their London game, and have been worried about a potential sale of Wembley effecting their future at that stadium. Makes a lot of sense for Khan to buy it, no longer have to pay rent on it every year, and get a piece of every event, NFL or otherwise, that takes place at Wembley.

Lamping also said that if the Jags decide in the future to add a second London game each year (likely preseason), this makes it a lot easier.

Lamping, "Judge us on our actions, not on what fears might be. Shad does business all over the world. Our behavior here in Jacksonville has been the exact opposite of what you would expect from an owner if he was moving. It strengthens the Jaguars financial health. Trying to find those opportunities that can result in new revenue streams that flow back to Jacksonville and make us financially stronger."
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on April 26, 2018, 02:52:41 PM
JIA actually has customs already and an international gate that leads to it (C5). Next time you’re there and bored go over by C1, and you’ll see the customs exit tunnel.

Now, I don’t know how many people this area can process, but it’s there.

I know that there is a customs exit tunnel at the C gate. My thought process is that you would like need to move Southwest and American to B gate in order to accommodate the flow of international travel at JIA. It is essentially what New Orleans is going to do with their expansion from my understanding.

Probably not necessary. Generally for mid-sized cities with 1-2 international flights a day, there is one common use gate that they all share. Let's say British Airways tomorrow announces a nonstop JAX-LHR. It will be 1 flight that operates maybe not even every day. They don't need a 24/7 dedicated gate. Most international gates are shared use, even at airports like ATL (though Delta has preferred use on a few of them).

Side note: I'm 99.9% sure that all of JAX's gates are officially shared use, even though in practice the bigger carriers have their gates that they always use.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: I-10east on April 26, 2018, 05:04:24 PM
Channel 4 is already starting with the dumb moving rumors because of Shad wanting to own Wembley... While I don't foresee a move, I could see us losing more regular season games which would piss me off. I'm very skeptical about Khan owning Wembley being a good thing for Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: I-10east on April 26, 2018, 05:08:13 PM
To paraquote channel 4 "The question on EVERYBODY's mind, will the Jags move to London?" SMH... ::)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on April 26, 2018, 05:09:04 PM
A note from Action News - if you're going to the Draft Party, head out early and be patient.  Besides the Draft Party, the Jumbo Shrimp have a home game, and Welcome to Rockville is at Metro Park. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on April 26, 2018, 05:10:08 PM
To paraquote channel 4 "The question on EVERYBODY's mind, will the Jags move to London?" SMH... ::)

Is this the same "everybody" that Trump cites as supporting whatever random thought has just entered his head?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: I-10east on April 26, 2018, 05:16:10 PM
^^I don't know what that's all about, but whatever...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 26, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
The radio host Seth Harp explained it today in a way that I was kind of thinking when I heard the news:  Khan buying Wembley is the Europe version of what Kronke has done in LA. 

He just happened to purchase a track of land with a stadium already on it.  And now he'll generate revenue on EVERYTHING in the stadium when the Jags play their games there as well.  Very smart move on his part.

Essentially, he just got out ahead of the curve, knowing that the NFL will expand, to maintain our presence in London (will probably bump up to 2 games a year) and when/if they put a franchise over there (not the Jaguars) he'll be able to lease that stadium to whichever team goes.  Because when the NFL expands, I fully expect them to expand and not just move a team from here.  I could see 2 teams in London which would ease the travel burden on all involved by being able to play 2 games with 'home' teams a year, as well as allow the visiting team to play 2 consecutive games across the pond.

   

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kiva on April 26, 2018, 09:09:53 PM
This reminds me of an old joke. Three deaf men are on a bus. The first says "Is this Wembley?" The second says "No, it's Thursday". The third says "So am I. Let's get off and have a drink!".
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: jaxnyc79 on April 26, 2018, 10:44:42 PM
A real estate transaction to begin to create a London fan base to supplement the Jacksonville area fan base...makes sense.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: billy on April 27, 2018, 01:50:18 AM
Why is there not a Flex N Gate facility in Jacksonville?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 27, 2018, 05:58:47 AM
A real estate transaction to begin to create a London fan base to supplement the Jacksonville area fan base...makes sense.

Unfortunately, it doesn't make a lot of sense for the taxpayers who helped to build the stadium in the first place. The FA will sell it on, pocket the money (after paying off their creditors) and we'll get stuck with Flex N Gate stadium. But who knows? Maybe we'll get massive scoreboards and swimming pools (financed by the GLA, of course). That should definitely class up the "home of football".
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: BenderRodriguez on April 27, 2018, 07:07:23 AM

… I could see 2 teams in London which would ease the travel burden on all involved by being able to play 2 games with 'home' teams a year, as well as allow the visiting team to play 2 consecutive games across the pond.
 

This... actually makes a lot of sense and definitely works logistically.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2018, 09:19:38 AM
I don't see the Jags losing a second home game. However, I do see Khan campaigning for the Jags to play an away game there. Even though the home team gets more money on paper, the fact that Khan owns the place certainly gives some financial incentive.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 27, 2018, 10:19:14 AM
That is some serious Mojo. Wembley is the national stadium in England where they play all of their National Soccer Team games and Cup championships. Hopefully he does not use this as leverage to extort COJ into bending over backwards for anything he wants.

Sorry to quote myself, but the more I think about the potential Wembley acquisition, the more I think that this will significantly improve Khan's negotiating stance on his future redevelopment proposal. Anyone that believes that there is no potential for Khan to move the team fulltime to London just because he said so in a quote is extremely naïve. Did you expect him to say, "Well I may move the Jags if I don't get whatever I want in Jacksonville?" No, instead he will use this as a bargaining chip throughout the process, and I don't blame the guy. It is business after all.

What this means is that the City and various public entities have to put their big boy pants on and do whatever they can on their end. Partner with Khan on corporate recruiting efforts, solve the ramp issue, address environmental remediation, make something happen with the Emerald Necklace (Hogan's Creek), start putting together incentive packages at the state and local level, and have various departments in the City prepared to expend a substantial amount of time on the proposal.

If Khan's redevelopment happens, that all but assures the Jags stay permanently. Don't fool yourself for a minute into thinking that things won't head south real quick if Khan does not get his way. I grew up in Jacksonville and left due to frustration/inaction from the City (as have many others). What makes you think a multi-billionaire with no ties to the area won't do the same?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 27, 2018, 10:53:33 AM
One doesn't have 'mojo' in the UK.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: DrQue on April 27, 2018, 12:53:42 PM
How many NFL teams would be willing to play one of their "home" games in Khan's stadium? Financially it could make sense, but if the Jags develop a real crowd advantage, then I don't see other owners agreeing to that.

Wembley could be a good thing for Jax and the Jags. However, if the team does not meet financial goals locally, I could see this creeping toward more than one home game in London.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 27, 2018, 12:57:35 PM
That is some serious Mojo. Wembley is the national stadium in England where they play all of their National Soccer Team games and Cup championships. Hopefully he does not use this as leverage to extort COJ into bending over backwards for anything he wants.

Sorry to quote myself, but the more I think about the potential Wembley acquisition, the more I think that this will significantly improve Khan's negotiating stance on his future redevelopment proposal. Anyone that believes that there is no potential for Khan to move the team fulltime to London just because he said so in a quote is extremely naïve. Did you expect him to say, "Well I may move the Jags if I don't get whatever I want in Jacksonville?" No, instead he will use this as a bargaining chip throughout the process, and I don't blame the guy. It is business after all.

What this means is that the City and various public entities have to put their big boy pants on and do whatever they can on their end. Partner with Khan on corporate recruiting efforts, solve the ramp issue, address environmental remediation, make something happen with the Emerald Necklace (Hogan's Creek), start putting together incentive packages at the state and local level, and have various departments in the City prepared to expend a substantial amount of time on the proposal.

If Khan's redevelopment happens, that all but assures the Jags stay permanently. Don't fool yourself for a minute into thinking that things won't head south real quick if Khan does not get his way. I grew up in Jacksonville and left due to frustration/inaction from the City (as have many others). What makes you think a multi-billionaire with no ties to the area won't do the same?

Totally agree. Interesting that Khan seems to be learning more about RE development now. Through the Shipyards and Lot J proposals. Daily's Place construction. I believe he is working on similar development around Craven Cottage and now the Wembley purchase. Could work out well for Jax in the long run...or could be disastrous. We'll see...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Todd_Parker on April 27, 2018, 01:04:51 PM
Would be interesting to see the responses to a forum discussion on predictions for the city of Jacksonville if the Jaguars did move.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 27, 2018, 01:40:09 PM
That is some serious Mojo. Wembley is the national stadium in England where they play all of their National Soccer Team games and Cup championships. Hopefully he does not use this as leverage to extort COJ into bending over backwards for anything he wants.

Sorry to quote myself, but the more I think about the potential Wembley acquisition, the more I think that this will significantly improve Khan's negotiating stance on his future redevelopment proposal. Anyone that believes that there is no potential for Khan to move the team fulltime to London just because he said so in a quote is extremely naïve. Did you expect him to say, "Well I may move the Jags if I don't get whatever I want in Jacksonville?" No, instead he will use this as a bargaining chip throughout the process, and I don't blame the guy. It is business after all.

What this means is that the City and various public entities have to put their big boy pants on and do whatever they can on their end. Partner with Khan on corporate recruiting efforts, solve the ramp issue, address environmental remediation, make something happen with the Emerald Necklace (Hogan's Creek), start putting together incentive packages at the state and local level, and have various departments in the City prepared to expend a substantial amount of time on the proposal.

If Khan's redevelopment happens, that all but assures the Jags stay permanently. Don't fool yourself for a minute into thinking that things won't head south real quick if Khan does not get his way. I grew up in Jacksonville and left due to frustration/inaction from the City (as have many others). What makes you think a multi-billionaire with no ties to the area won't do the same?

Totally agree. Interesting that Khan seems to be learning more about RE development now. Through the Shipyards and Lot J proposals. Daily's Place construction. I believe he is working on similar development around Craven Cottage and now the Wembley purchase. Could work out well for Jax in the long run...or could be disastrous. We'll see...

Agreed with your agreement. He definitely seems to be learning and is likely surrounding himself more and more with savvy people that he can lean on. I also think he's in a better financial situation to make big moves than he was even a few years ago. I believe his net worth is about 75% larger than it was when he bought the Jags. With his standing in the national and international business world and ego (that is well earned), I just don't see him letting the City jerk him around or not hold up their end of the deal.

It's hard to know who (or what entity) is to be blamed for The District debacle, but that absolutely can't happen this time. I'm not saying the City is any way at fault (as it could very well be wholly on Rummel), but I hope that the experience working on The District has prepped them well for dealing with Khan. Truly could end up being a defining project that determines Jax's path over the next 20-50 years.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on April 27, 2018, 02:06:09 PM
The city is in no way, shape or form able to negotiate with Khan on anything close to an even playing field.   
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 27, 2018, 02:54:26 PM
I don't see the Jags losing a second home game. However, I do see Khan campaigning for the Jags to play an away game there. Even though the home team gets more money on paper, the fact that Khan owns the place certainly gives some financial incentive.

The second London home game would likely be a pre-season game. The easiest option would be to play the 1st pre-season game in London. The are already practicing in the mornings anyway to avoid the heat. Their opponent would be another team who is “hosting” a game in London that season. It would help the other team get adjusted for the game later in the season. I think most season ticket holders would be happy not to include the price of the pre-season game in the season ticket cost. As for lost stadium revenue, if Fulham moves up to the premier league then Khan can propose a friendly against another team training in the states. Most of the big clubs already train in the USA in July/early August and we would probably draw more than match instead of a pre-season game.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2018, 02:58:23 PM
I don't see the Jags losing a second home game. However, I do see Khan campaigning for the Jags to play an away game there. Even though the home team gets more money on paper, the fact that Khan owns the place certainly gives some financial incentive.

The second London home game would likely be a pre-season game. The easiest option would be to play the 1st pre-season game in London. The are already practicing in the mornings anyway to avoid the heat. Their opponent would be another team who is “hosting” a game in London that season. It would help the other team get adjusted for the game later in the season. I think most season ticket holders would be happy not to include the price of the pre-season game in the season ticket cost. As for lost stadium revenue, if Fulham moves up to the premier league then Khan can propose a friendly against another team training in the states. Most of the big clubs already train in the USA in July/early August and we would probably draw more than match instead of a pre-season game.

I suppose, but realistically I'd be surprised if the team was committed to two trips over the pond. If they play two games in a row over there (Home and Away or Vice Versa), then it's only one trip over. Plus, while Londoners may not know American Football as well as we do, they'll figure out FAST if it's a trash pre-season game.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 27, 2018, 03:20:00 PM
They are plenty of friendlies in soccer. So, I think they would still come out to a pre-season game.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on April 27, 2018, 03:35:42 PM
They are plenty of friendlies in soccer. So, I think they would still come out to a pre-season game.

Yea....In a friendly they don’t pull 100% of the starters and play literally the third string. They might pull a few here and there, but there are still stars on the field.

Plus, Wembley holds 90k. They aren’t going to put 90k in the stands year in and year out for a preseason game.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on April 27, 2018, 03:44:24 PM
How many NFL teams would be willing to play one of their "home" games in Khan's stadium? Financially it could make sense, but if the Jags develop a real crowd advantage, then I don't see other owners agreeing to that.

Wembley could be a good thing for Jax and the Jags. However, if the team does not meet financial goals locally, I could see this creeping toward more than one home game in London.

The Jaguars would have a very difficult time selling additional home games in London to the fans in Jacksonville. If fans begin to see this venture as a gradual creep across the Atlantic, they'll stop supporting the team altogether. If that happens, so much for increasing local revenue.

But if Khan owns Wembley, he might have the leverage to lure other NFL teams to give up home games to play the Jaguars in London. From a competitive standpoint, home-field advantage matters a lot less in the NFL than it does in college, particularly during the regular season. A Jaguar-heavy crowd would not be as much of an issue with getting another team to come play in London.

In college football, we've had a huge increase in these "neutral site" games early in the year. They're so lucrative that Florida and Michigan get more money by splitting the revenue from a game in Dallas than they do by keeping all of the money from a game in Gainesville/Ann Arbor. Since Khan doesn't have to rent the facility, the financials of a "neutral site" game between the Chargers and Jaguars might begin to look more attractive for both teams than a game in LA, where they can't even fill an MLS stadium. The Chargers, or many other small-market teams, could do better with half the money from a London game than all of the money from a home game. And obviously the Jags would be happy to take half the money from a London game than none of the money from a traditional road game.

And the fans in Jacksonville don't care a lick how many road games the Jaguars play in London.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 27, 2018, 04:39:37 PM
Tremendous post JBTripper. Had not considered that angle.

Really, any way you look at it Khan stands to gain money and power from the acquisition. Gotta give it up to the guy for thinking outside of the box.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 27, 2018, 05:47:12 PM
The NFL currently covers travel costs for teams playing in London. Not sure if they would do that for a pre-season game. And not sure how that tips the scales in terms of revenue for a preseason game.

Yes I could definitely see a home-away in back-to-back weeks in London for the Jags. Just gotta convince a team to do that. I'm sure the Chargers would be low-hanging fruit in the short term, but once the LA stadium is finished maybe not so much.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: funwithteeth on April 27, 2018, 06:23:58 PM
The NFL currently covers travel costs for teams playing in London. Not sure if they would do that for a pre-season game. And not sure how that tips the scales in terms of revenue for a preseason game.

Yes I could definitely see a home-away in back-to-back weeks in London for the Jags. Just gotta convince a team to do that. I'm sure the Chargers would be low-hanging fruit in the short term, but once the LA stadium is finished maybe not so much.
NFL scheduling doesn't work this way. A Jags-Chargers London game could only happen in a year where AFC South teams are scheduled to play AFC West teams—which happens every three years—or, if in the previous season, the Jags and the Chargers finished in the same spot in their respective divisions. If it seems like those teams have been playing each other a lot over recent years, it's because both teams have been routinely finishing near or at the bottom of those divisions.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: dp8541 on April 27, 2018, 06:58:42 PM
In the next few years my guess is we see a Jags preseason finale, followed by "home opener" finishing with "road" game all in London.  Team will stay there for a month or so to minimize travel time.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 27, 2018, 08:10:26 PM
In the next few years my guess is we see a Jags preseason finale, followed by "home opener" finishing with "road" game all in London.  Team will stay there for a month or so to minimize travel time.

This would be very hard to do with mandatory cuts due after the last pre-season game. You would be putting over 30 players back on a plane not mention the players trying to find a new team with his agent.


With that said, I do think the Jags prefer playing in the London early in the season.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 27, 2018, 11:27:35 PM

NFL scheduling doesn't work this way. A Jags-Chargers London game could only happen in a year where AFC South teams are scheduled to play AFC West teams—which happens every three years—or, if in the previous season, the Jags and the Chargers finished in the same spot in their respective divisions. If it seems like those teams have been playing each other a lot over recent years, it's because both teams have been routinely finishing near or at the bottom of those divisions.

Yeah you're right. I was just saying hypothetically, but yeah you're right.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 28, 2018, 10:59:39 AM
How many NFL teams would be willing to play one of their "home" games in Khan's stadium? Financially it could make sense, but if the Jags develop a real crowd advantage, then I don't see other owners agreeing to that.

Wembley could be a good thing for Jax and the Jags. However, if the team does not meet financial goals locally, I could see this creeping toward more than one home game in London.

The Jaguars would have a very difficult time selling additional home games in London to the fans in Jacksonville. If fans begin to see this venture as a gradual creep across the Atlantic, they'll stop supporting the team altogether. If that happens, so much for increasing local revenue.

But if Khan owns Wembley, he might have the leverage to lure other NFL teams to give up home games to play the Jaguars in London. From a competitive standpoint, home-field advantage matters a lot less in the NFL than it does in college, particularly during the regular season. A Jaguar-heavy crowd would not be as much of an issue with getting another team to come play in London.

In college football, we've had a huge increase in these "neutral site" games early in the year. They're so lucrative that Florida and Michigan get more money by splitting the revenue from a game in Dallas than they do by keeping all of the money from a game in Gainesville/Ann Arbor. Since Khan doesn't have to rent the facility, the financials of a "neutral site" game between the Chargers and Jaguars might begin to look more attractive for both teams than a game in LA, where they can't even fill an MLS stadium. The Chargers, or many other small-market teams, could do better with half the money from a London game than all of the money from a home game. And obviously the Jags would be happy to take half the money from a London game than none of the money from a traditional road game.

And the fans in Jacksonville don't care a lick how many road games the Jaguars play in London.


If the Jags add a second London game, it's 99% going to be a home game. Can't see the away game scenario happening for the simple reason that it defeats the entire purpose of playing in London, which is to generate more revenue for the Jags. With the way NFL revenue sharing is set up, home teams get 60% of general ticket sales, and 100% of premium ticket sales (clubs, boxes, etc) and concessions. The other 40% goes into a pot that is shared evenly among all teams. If the Jags play an away game in London, that money all goes to the other team. Financially, adding a regular away game in London makes roughly as much sense as adding a regular away game in Lakeland.

I also disagree that local fans would abandon the Jags if they did add a second home game in London. Khan is a straight-shooter, and he's clearly committed to the Jacksonville market. If he continues to invest in the city, and continues to field a winning team, I think most (educated) locals would see it as a smart business move that will ultimately benefit Jacksonville. If you watch the State of the Franchise every year, the Jags are very transparent about the challenges of being a small market NFL team, and about how holding a home game in London helps them to fill in that gap. They play in London to make the franchise more sustainable in Jacksonville. It really is that simple. Khan's proven himself to be a man of character over the years, and I guarantee you, he's not going to Irsay the Jags.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 28, 2018, 12:37:16 PM
There's just so much BS on this thread. Sorry guys - not trying to be rude. But basically, everyone seems to "know" what Khan is going to do - and it miraculously lines up with their own preferences. The truth is none of us can really know what Khan plans to do - and none of us really knows how much he cares about Jacksonville. It's all speculation and, again, it's speculation borne out of wishful thinking (or anti-Jaguars sentiment).

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 28, 2018, 01:21:31 PM
Financially, adding a regular away game in London makes roughly as much sense as adding a regular away game in Lakeland.

...if Khan owned an NFL stadium in Lakeland. I mean the premise of that argument was that owning the stadium allows him to generate revenue from the games being played there.

I also disagree that local fans would abandon the Jags if they did add a second home game in London. Khan is a straight-shooter, and he's clearly committed to the Jacksonville market. If he continues to invest in the city, and continues to field a winning team, I think most (educated) locals would see it as a smart business move that will ultimately benefit Jacksonville. If you watch the State of the Franchise every year, the Jags are very transparent about the challenges of being a small market NFL team, and about how holding a home game in London helps them to fill in that gap. They play in London to make the franchise more sustainable in Jacksonville. It really is that simple. Khan's proven himself to be a man of character over the years, and I guarantee you, he's not going to Irsay the Jags.

Lol maybe. They somewhat sensationalize and dramatize the issue in an attempt to gain greater leverage for future deals. I agree with you regarding Khan and insofar I believe and hope it is so. But I would stop short of any guarantees.

Also, there are fans that believe/d that the London games were a temporary measure to stabilize the franchise. There was an Ozone exchange yesterday where the fan stated that he had always assumed once the tarps came off and the team was selling out, the London game would be brought back to Jax. Ozone basically replied that the London game is here to stay...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 28, 2018, 02:42:31 PM
^Then those fans are wildly ignorant of the basic facts and holding on to assumptions that are easily disproven with a simple Google search. The Jaguars have been very open about their desire to make London a second home. The team has a formal agreement to play one home game a season in London through 2020, with an extension through 2025 if the league approves it. Khan very publicly lobbied for an extension through 2030 a few years ago. The game isn't going anywhere, it's an important part of the Jags business model, and no one within the organization is suggesting otherwise.

When I say that Khan won't Irsay the Jags, I don't mean there's zero percent chance the Jags will move to London one day. What I mean is that the Jags are very transparent about the economic health of the franchise, and we'll know years in advance if the Jags no longer consider Jacksonville to be economically viable. We're not just going to wake up to an unexpected headline one morning that the Jags have packed up and moved in the dead of the night.

To a previous poster's point that we have no way of knowing for sure and both sides of the argument are purely hypothetical, to me, that's where Occam's Razor comes in. Which theory makes the fewest assumptions? 1) Khan is telling the truth and wants to do everything possible to keep the team in Jacksonville 2) Khan has a secret ploy to move the team to London.

We have plenty of empirical evidence supporting theory #1. And, quite literally, zero empirical evidence supporting theory #2. He's invested over a hundred million dollars to improve the gameday experience in Jacksonville and to build new long-term revenue streams. He's stocked the front office with proven winners like Mark Lamping and local heros like Tom Coughlin. He's spent a ton in free agency and redesigned the uniforms twice to push sales. He's invested heavily in regional marketing to draw in more fans from nearby cities. He's made it more affordable to go to Jags games through concession reductions and clear plastic bags. He's recruited Cordish to build a huge development next to the stadium, and is pushing the city to remove the Hart Bridge ramps so the Jags can develop the Shipyards. He was at the draft party at Daily's Place randomly walking around high fiving fans, he had tears in his eyes when the city got its first home playoff win in 20 years, and he was deeply and visibly hurt when the media suggested the Wembley thing was a ploy to relocate the Jags to London. He's also widely considered to be one of the best owners in the league.

The only way the London conspiracy makes sense is if we assume that all of this is an act intended to lull Jacksonville into a false sense of security and then crush their hopes and dreams, cartoon villian style.

If he really wanted to move the team to London, ALL he needed to do was buy the team, maintain the status quo, and let the fanbase continue to erode until they sustained three years of consecutive financial losses and could move penalty free.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 28, 2018, 05:07:54 PM
To a previous poster's point that we have no way of knowing for sure and both sides of the argument are purely hypothetical, to me, that's where Occam's Razor comes in. Which theory makes the fewest assumptions? 1) Khan is telling the truth and wants to do everything possible to keep the team in Jacksonville 2) Khan has a secret ploy to move the team to London.



So, those are the only two possibilities? Yet more assumptions.

What about 3) Khan's doing what he can to make money and will ultimately follow whatever path proves to be most lucrative - and maybe he doesn't even know what that is going to be right now. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm proposing it as an example to show you've created a false dichotomy.

Why does the only other option have to be some sort of 'secret ploy'? When you use that sort of logic, you can then fall back on the 'occam's razor' argument and it sounds valid, because consipiracy theories are usually total bullshit.

The problem I have with a lot of this conjecture is the fact that it's couched in such absolute terms: "Khan is going to..." "Khan will never...". There is simply no way we know what he will or won't do, what he is or isn't thinking. We don't even really know what kind of person he actually is - we only know the public face.



Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 28, 2018, 06:50:59 PM
Yeah Adam, that is essentially the line of thinking I've been trying to express. There is a possibility that IF Khan does acquire Wembley AND does run into issues with his redevelopment plans from the City or due to lack of a market, things could head south (or northeast) real quick. He's likely already recouped a portion of the $100 million he's invested in the Jags, and even if not, $100 million is a drop in the bucket. Particularly if he stands to gain more from a move to London, which is quite likely. To put it in perspective, $100 million to Khan is the same amount of money that $2600 is to a person with a net worth of $200k.

We're all free to believe whatever we want, but I personally will not believe Khan is 100% set on keeping the Jags in Jax permanently until he has a legacy type redevelopment project under construction.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on April 28, 2018, 09:06:18 PM
I don't know Khan. For all I know, he is such a great guy, he makes Mother Teresa look like a bitch. Or maybe he has girls chained in his basement.

But I believe he "wants to make it work" ( errr....make lots of money and have tax payers contribute a shit ton of stadium money in the future)in Jax and will give it his best shot. If it "doesn't work" as he defines it, he will move the team in a heartbeat and the NFL will vote yes in record time. His team.I have no problem with that.

I  like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 28, 2018, 09:48:18 PM
^SMM, it's the occasional post like this that you stumble onto that redeem all your other forum transgressions. Very wise words delivered so effortlessly. Enjoy your good dough, my friend, enjoy the good dough life.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 28, 2018, 10:15:11 PM
To a previous poster's point that we have no way of knowing for sure and both sides of the argument are purely hypothetical, to me, that's where Occam's Razor comes in. Which theory makes the fewest assumptions? 1) Khan is telling the truth and wants to do everything possible to keep the team in Jacksonville 2) Khan has a secret ploy to move the team to London.



So, those are the only two possibilities? Yet more assumptions.

What about 3) Khan's doing what he can to make money and will ultimately follow whatever path proves to be most lucrative - and maybe he doesn't even know what that is going to be right now. I'm not saying this is the case, I'm proposing it as an example to show you've created a false dichotomy.

Why does the only other option have to be some sort of 'secret ploy'? When you use that sort of logic, you can then fall back on the 'occam's razor' argument and it sounds valid, because consipiracy theories are usually total bullshit.

The problem I have with a lot of this conjecture is the fact that it's couched in such absolute terms: "Khan is going to..." "Khan will never...". There is simply no way we know what he will or won't do, what he is or isn't thinking. We don't even really know what kind of person he actually is - we only know the public face.





I'm purely talking intentions. We have no way of knowing what the future holds. The possibilities are limitless. I'm strictly disagreeing with the argument that Khan is actively plotting to move the team to London. Could it happen? Absolutely. We don't know what's gonna happen if a recession hits. Or when the stadium reaches end-of-life. Or when a less Jags-friendly mayor takes office. There's also the possibility that the NFL expands to London and Khan sells the Jags to launch a new franchise in London. There are zero guarantees. The market's still arguably too small, and the stadium is still, inarguably, too big. Everyone should really try to enjoy these next few years.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Snaketoz on April 29, 2018, 07:45:40 AM
Being a small market, I believe the Jaguars are showing that they are committed to Jacksonville as long as Jacksonville is committed to the Jags.  This recent draft reinforces my opinion.  When the pre Kahn GM was here it seemed he drafted West coast and small college players.  This draft the Jags drafted a lot of SEC players that are more familiar to it's fans.  Jacksonville needs a vibrant entertainment district.  If Kahn gets that, the Jags are here to stay.  If he can only break even, he sells the team or moves it.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on April 30, 2018, 08:26:10 AM
^SMM, it's the occasional post like this that you stumble onto that redeem all your other forum transgressions. Very wise words delivered so effortlessly. Enjoy your good dough, my friend, enjoy the good dough life.

Thanks for the high praise!

Even better, being linked publicly to transgressions has been on my bucket list. Check!
I have an unusual list.



Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2018, 09:23:05 AM
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: FlaBoy on April 30, 2018, 11:15:52 AM
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.

Agreed. It will be more than a decade before an NFL team could potentially be in London imo. However, I think Shad sees a massive market that he can try to create an additional fan base and London can be the Jaguars "second home". That could be scary long term but Shad is already near 70. I doubt his plan is to move to London. He would like to be the NFL's ambassador to Europe though.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 30, 2018, 11:49:16 AM
I like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.

I disagree.

The team is deeply interwoven into the fabric of our community, spanning generations, and I think it would really do a number on Jacksonville to lose that institution.

The Jags give Jacksonville identity.

Externally with outsiders, sure, but even more importantly, internally as a city.

The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

You walk around Hemming Park, or the beaches, or the Town Center, or the Orange Park mall, or Mayport, or UNF, and you see Jags gear everywhere, and you hear people talking about our team. And debating the draft. And celebrating wins. And commiserating the losses.

You wear a Jags t-shirt at LaGuardia, or O'Hare, or Hartsfield-Jackson, you're going to be approached by other Jacksonville travelers.

And you go to the games on Sunday afternoon, and you see an entire cross-section of the community, coming together, cheering for their local team, and screaming the name of our county at the top of their lungs.

That's irreplaceable.

I think what makes this current team so special is how closely the team's identity mirrors that of the city - the scrappy underdog, minimized by the national media, with a chip on its shoulder and ready to prove the doubters wrong. Led by a blue-collar, bologna-sandwich-eating coach, and a quarterback that is pure Jax Beach.

Plus, the guys love it here, and want to be here, and I think that's infectious and trickles down to every aspect of our community, from business development, to racial relations, to overall civic pride.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on April 30, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/KiaU2EUyxjQB2/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: RatTownRyan on April 30, 2018, 01:26:15 PM
I agree with KenFSU. I am sure there are some on this forum that either, grew up following another football team( Pittsburgh or Miami), are not interested in football, or didnt grow up in Jax. For someone who grew up here and has been a Jag fan my entire life, losing the team would feel like losing part of my identity. The sentiment that someone could get over something like that in five minutes does not register. I love Jax for many different reasons. Having a professional sports team  that puts us on a stage against the big cities is huge even if its symbolic or irrelevant. We will never have the population, economics or institution of Houston, LA, Seattle, or NY but on any given Sunday we can whoop that a$$ on the football field in front of the world.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on April 30, 2018, 02:28:46 PM
How many NFL teams would be willing to play one of their "home" games in Khan's stadium? Financially it could make sense, but if the Jags develop a real crowd advantage, then I don't see other owners agreeing to that.

Wembley could be a good thing for Jax and the Jags. However, if the team does not meet financial goals locally, I could see this creeping toward more than one home game in London.

The Jaguars would have a very difficult time selling additional home games in London to the fans in Jacksonville. If fans begin to see this venture as a gradual creep across the Atlantic, they'll stop supporting the team altogether. If that happens, so much for increasing local revenue.

But if Khan owns Wembley, he might have the leverage to lure other NFL teams to give up home games to play the Jaguars in London. From a competitive standpoint, home-field advantage matters a lot less in the NFL than it does in college, particularly during the regular season. A Jaguar-heavy crowd would not be as much of an issue with getting another team to come play in London.

In college football, we've had a huge increase in these "neutral site" games early in the year. They're so lucrative that Florida and Michigan get more money by splitting the revenue from a game in Dallas than they do by keeping all of the money from a game in Gainesville/Ann Arbor. Since Khan doesn't have to rent the facility, the financials of a "neutral site" game between the Chargers and Jaguars might begin to look more attractive for both teams than a game in LA, where they can't even fill an MLS stadium. The Chargers, or many other small-market teams, could do better with half the money from a London game than all of the money from a home game. And obviously the Jags would be happy to take half the money from a London game than none of the money from a traditional road game.

And the fans in Jacksonville don't care a lick how many road games the Jaguars play in London.


If the Jags add a second London game, it's 99% going to be a home game. Can't see the away game scenario happening for the simple reason that it defeats the entire purpose of playing in London, which is to generate more revenue for the Jags. With the way NFL revenue sharing is set up, home teams get 60% of general ticket sales, and 100% of premium ticket sales (clubs, boxes, etc) and concessions. The other 40% goes into a pot that is shared evenly among all teams. If the Jags play an away game in London, that money all goes to the other team. Financially, adding a regular away game in London makes roughly as much sense as adding a regular away game in Lakeland.

That may be true today, but the revenue sharing agreement isn't etched in stone. If an NFL owner should come to own Wembley stadium, that changes the calculus for what's possible over there. I wasn't suggesting that the Jags would benefit much from a true "road" game in London, only that a revenue split more along the lines of a college "neutral site" game might  change the equation.  Achieving this with the NFL schedule is obviously more complicated than Florida and Michigan each giving up home games against Double-Directional State, but it's not impossible to picture somebody on the Jaguars schedule each year voluntarily giving up a true home game in order to make more money from a neutral-site game in London.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on April 30, 2018, 02:33:38 PM
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.

I wonder if the travel thing isn't vastly overblown. This is the NFL. It's not like they're operating on some razor-thin margin. And as for the physical toll on the players... a first-class flight to London can't be any more taxing than playing a football game.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on April 30, 2018, 02:34:46 PM
I like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.

I disagree.

The team is deeply interwoven into the fabric of our community, spanning generations, and I think it would really do a number on Jacksonville to lose that institution.

The Jags give Jacksonville identity.

Externally with outsiders, sure, but even more importantly, internally as a city.

The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

You walk around Hemming Park, or the beaches, or the Town Center, or the Orange Park mall, or Mayport, or UNF, and you see Jags gear everywhere, and you hear people talking about our team. And debating the draft. And celebrating wins. And commiserating the losses.

You wear a Jags t-shirt at LaGuardia, or O'Hare, or Hartsfield-Jackson, you're going to be approached by other Jacksonville travelers.

And you go to the games on Sunday afternoon, and you see an entire cross-section of the community, coming together, cheering for their local team, and screaming the name of our county at the top of their lungs.

That's irreplaceable.

I think what makes this current team so special is how closely the team's identity mirrors that of the city - the scrappy underdog, minimized by the national media, with a chip on its shoulder and ready to prove the doubters wrong. Led by a blue-collar, bologna-sandwich-eating coach, and a quarterback that is pure Jax Beach.

Plus, the guys love it here, and want to be here, and I think that's infectious and trickles down to every aspect of our community, from business development, to racial relations, to overall civic pride.


By any chance, did you think up the "Jaguaring" idea?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrevDYTvX58


Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on April 30, 2018, 02:48:50 PM
^Then those fans are wildly ignorant of the basic facts and holding on to assumptions that are easily disproven with a simple Google search. The Jaguars have been very open about their desire to make London a second home. The team has a formal agreement to play one home game a season in London through 2020, with an extension through 2025 if the league approves it. Khan very publicly lobbied for an extension through 2030 a few years ago. The game isn't going anywhere, it's an important part of the Jags business model, and no one within the organization is suggesting otherwise.

When I say that Khan won't Irsay the Jags, I don't mean there's zero percent chance the Jags will move to London one day. What I mean is that the Jags are very transparent about the economic health of the franchise, and we'll know years in advance if the Jags no longer consider Jacksonville to be economically viable. We're not just going to wake up to an unexpected headline one morning that the Jags have packed up and moved in the dead of the night.

To a previous poster's point that we have no way of knowing for sure and both sides of the argument are purely hypothetical, to me, that's where Occam's Razor comes in. Which theory makes the fewest assumptions? 1) Khan is telling the truth and wants to do everything possible to keep the team in Jacksonville 2) Khan has a secret ploy to move the team to London.

We have plenty of empirical evidence supporting theory #1. And, quite literally, zero empirical evidence supporting theory #2. He's invested over a hundred million dollars to improve the gameday experience in Jacksonville and to build new long-term revenue streams. He's stocked the front office with proven winners like Mark Lamping and local heros like Tom Coughlin. He's spent a ton in free agency and redesigned the uniforms twice to push sales. He's invested heavily in regional marketing to draw in more fans from nearby cities. He's made it more affordable to go to Jags games through concession reductions and clear plastic bags. He's recruited Cordish to build a huge development next to the stadium, and is pushing the city to remove the Hart Bridge ramps so the Jags can develop the Shipyards. He was at the draft party at Daily's Place randomly walking around high fiving fans, he had tears in his eyes when the city got its first home playoff win in 20 years, and he was deeply and visibly hurt when the media suggested the Wembley thing was a ploy to relocate the Jags to London. He's also widely considered to be one of the best owners in the league.

The only way the London conspiracy makes sense is if we assume that all of this is an act intended to lull Jacksonville into a false sense of security and then crush their hopes and dreams, cartoon villian style.

If he really wanted to move the team to London, ALL he needed to do was buy the team, maintain the status quo, and let the fanbase continue to erode until they sustained three years of consecutive financial losses and could move penalty free.

I take Khan at his word, but until I see cranes over Lot J I'm going to be very nervous. I can't help but look at the "transparency" at each year's "State of the Franchise" as a setting of the table for a departure down the road. This year Lamping even said, referencing the "Team Teal" year, something along the lines of "we made a marketing decision not to campaign under the idea that 'if you don't support us, something bad might happen,'" which... to me sounds an awful lot like something bad might happen even though they're not saying it.

It feels like things get better every year, and then Lamping comes out and shows us the PowerPoint of Destiny that explains why Jacksonville has such a hard time being "financially viable." The team is winning, the organization is insanely profitable, local revenue is up... but we aren't viable because we aren't keeping pace with much larger markets. So we need to develop the shipyards/Lot J/Met Park in order to create more local revenue... and yet there's been no activity beyond a new set of renderings every year. Is it a stretch to think that one day we could wake up to the London Jaguars saying "look, we tried! We proposed new revenue streams but the city wouldn't pay ball and/or the market wouldn't support what we needed to do?"

Maybe I need a tinfoil hat.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 30, 2018, 03:16:46 PM
I like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.

I disagree.

The team is deeply interwoven into the fabric of our community, spanning generations, and I think it would really do a number on Jacksonville to lose that institution.

The Jags give Jacksonville identity.

Externally with outsiders, sure, but even more importantly, internally as a city.

The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

You walk around Hemming Park, or the beaches, or the Town Center, or the Orange Park mall, or Mayport, or UNF, and you see Jags gear everywhere, and you hear people talking about our team. And debating the draft. And celebrating wins. And commiserating the losses.

You wear a Jags t-shirt at LaGuardia, or O'Hare, or Hartsfield-Jackson, you're going to be approached by other Jacksonville travelers.

And you go to the games on Sunday afternoon, and you see an entire cross-section of the community, coming together, cheering for their local team, and screaming the name of our county at the top of their lungs.

That's irreplaceable.

I think what makes this current team so special is how closely the team's identity mirrors that of the city - the scrappy underdog, minimized by the national media, with a chip on its shoulder and ready to prove the doubters wrong. Led by a blue-collar, bologna-sandwich-eating coach, and a quarterback that is pure Jax Beach.

Plus, the guys love it here, and want to be here, and I think that's infectious and trickles down to every aspect of our community, from business development, to racial relations, to overall civic pride.


By any chance, did you think up the "Jaguaring" idea?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrevDYTvX58




Yes.

So what's your rationale that if the Jaguars were to vacate Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt the city at all? Or, that it would actually be good for the city? Purely because of the economic subsidies?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on April 30, 2018, 03:35:03 PM
I take Khan at his word, but until I see cranes over Lot J I'm going to be very nervous. I can't help but look at the "transparency" at each year's "State of the Franchise" as a setting of the table for a departure down the road. This year Lamping even said, referencing the "Team Teal" year, something along the lines of "we made a marketing decision not to campaign under the idea that 'if you don't support us, something bad might happen,'" which... to me sounds an awful lot like something bad might happen even though they're not saying it.

It feels like things get better every year, and then Lamping comes out and shows us the PowerPoint of Destiny that explains why Jacksonville has such a hard time being "financially viable." The team is winning, the organization is insanely profitable, local revenue is up... but we aren't viable because we aren't keeping pace with much larger markets. So we need to develop the shipyards/Lot J/Met Park in order to create more local revenue... and yet there's been no activity beyond a new set of renderings every year. Is it a stretch to think that one day we could wake up to the London Jaguars saying "look, we tried! We proposed new revenue streams but the city wouldn't pay ball and/or the market wouldn't support what we needed to do?"

Maybe I need a tinfoil hat.



I totally agree on Lamping's Powerpoints. They certainly have a way of taking the joy out of the State of the Franchise at times. I think the Jags are very selective about the data that they present as well. I hate the chart that shows that the Jags used to have the highest ticket prices in the league, but are now amongst the lowest. It's a very misleading chart. Those first couple of years were insanely inflated due to the presales and the pent-up excitement about the NFL selecting Jacksonville. They were never sustainable for a market this size, and it's silly to use them as a basis for comparison in 2018. I also think that it's in poor taste to imply that Everbank is inadequate after the city invested $100 million in improvements in the last couple of years.

I also agree with your point that the Jaguars' future in Jacksonville is going to hinge on the city's willingness (and ability) to play ball on the Shipyards and Lot J.

Ain't gonna be cheap to keep them in Jacksonville, but that's the nature of the NFL, as shitty as it is. Especially with the NFL's revenue sharing model that puts so much pressure on small markets to pull their weight and earn their equal piece of the pie.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on April 30, 2018, 04:02:06 PM
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.

I wonder if the travel thing isn't vastly overblown. This is the NFL. It's not like they're operating on some razor-thin margin. And as for the physical toll on the players... a first-class flight to London can't be any more taxing than playing a football game.

Not sure if I'd say it's overblown. The NFL Players Association already has made a point in the past regarding east coast-west coast trips. I recognize that east coast to London isn't THAT different than say NY-LA. But, West Coast to London is a legit haul. If the Chargers or 49ers have to do that on a regular basis, that will take a toll.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on April 30, 2018, 04:14:54 PM
I like the Jags being here, and a long time season ticket holder(with a 4 game blip last year) but he could move the team tomorrow and while I won't be happy, it will take me about by 5 minutes to get over it. I don't think it would hurt Jax at all. Probably help in the long term.

I disagree.

The team is deeply interwoven into the fabric of our community, spanning generations, and I think it would really do a number on Jacksonville to lose that institution.

The Jags give Jacksonville identity.

Externally with outsiders, sure, but even more importantly, internally as a city.

The Jags are the glue that unites an 800 square mile metro that is, for all intents and purposes, a collection of smaller, very different cities operating under a consolidated government.

You walk around Hemming Park, or the beaches, or the Town Center, or the Orange Park mall, or Mayport, or UNF, and you see Jags gear everywhere, and you hear people talking about our team. And debating the draft. And celebrating wins. And commiserating the losses.

You wear a Jags t-shirt at LaGuardia, or O'Hare, or Hartsfield-Jackson, you're going to be approached by other Jacksonville travelers.

And you go to the games on Sunday afternoon, and you see an entire cross-section of the community, coming together, cheering for their local team, and screaming the name of our county at the top of their lungs.

That's irreplaceable.

I think what makes this current team so special is how closely the team's identity mirrors that of the city - the scrappy underdog, minimized by the national media, with a chip on its shoulder and ready to prove the doubters wrong. Led by a blue-collar, bologna-sandwich-eating coach, and a quarterback that is pure Jax Beach.

Plus, the guys love it here, and want to be here, and I think that's infectious and trickles down to every aspect of our community, from business development, to racial relations, to overall civic pride.


By any chance, did you think up the "Jaguaring" idea?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrevDYTvX58




Yes.

So what's your rationale that if the Jaguars were to vacate Jacksonville, it wouldn't hurt the city at all? Or, that it would actually be good for the city? Purely because of the economic subsidies?

Mostly economic (both tax dollars and people's discretionary spending going elsewhere) but also would like to see what could be accomplished with the time and energy being directed to alternatives besides the NFL.

Of course, I am hoping city leadership is better over the next 20 years than the pathetic joke it has been the last 20.

Note, if I thought Khan would actually invest in the city(non Jags) I would feel vastly different.

Once again, I hope he develops the shit out of the sports district and the Jags are here the next 30 years.

But it is a freaking football team run by a billionaire that is part of an exclusive group of mostly billionaires that loots tax dollars like candy. If they go. They go. I cannot imagine thinking a professional sports team is that important. To each his own.






Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on April 30, 2018, 04:42:33 PM
I take exception to some comments a few days back that said effectively that Jacksonville needs to hurry up and give Khan the development deal he wants, or face losing the Jags. What Jacksonville really needs to do is work with Khan on a realistic deal that makes sense for the city, weighing the benefits to the team against the costs of the deal and the opportunity cost of what else we could do with the money. If there's a deal out there that works out, grab it. If not, pass. Not all deals that Khan may pitch are good for the city.

Case in point the original Shipyards deal from 2015. Folks forget that as flashy as it was, it was a *horrible* deal for the city. It would have essentially entailed paying Khan to take our land, cleaning it up at our expense, and subsidizing the amphitheater and the practice field (which he would own), allowing him to sell of the rest in pieces at his leisure, and *tie all the tax money generated by the new development in the development itself*.

Fortunately, after the administration changed brought in better negotiators, that deal was axed. So then they worked on things that the Jaguars had really wanted to begin with, in a way that had an actual return for the city - we contributed to the amphitheater and practice field (which the city owns, rather than the Jags). The current plans in Lot J and whatnot look like the next progression from that. Those plans are not at a stage where we can actually know what the impact will be on the city, because it's so conjectural at this point. There are no concrete plans or cost estimates, so we don't know yet. Hopefully it turns out awesome and brings a lot of new activity to the Stadium District where none existed before. But if it's not, then we need to say no.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on April 30, 2018, 05:33:25 PM
Not sure if I'd say it's overblown. The NFL Players Association already has made a point in the past regarding east coast-west coast trips. I recognize that east coast to London isn't THAT different than say NY-LA. But, West Coast to London is a legit haul. If the Chargers or 49ers have to do that on a regular basis, that will take a toll.

In a decade it will just be a 2-3 hour shuttle on the hyperloop.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: CityLife on April 30, 2018, 09:08:28 PM
I take exception to some comments a few days back that said effectively that Jacksonville needs to hurry up and give Khan the development deal he wants, or face losing the Jags. What Jacksonville really needs to do is work with Khan on a realistic deal that makes sense for the city, weighing the benefits to the team against the costs of the deal and the opportunity cost of what else we could do with the money. If there's a deal out there that works out, grab it. If not, pass. Not all deals that Khan may pitch are good for the city.

I presume this is directed towards my earlier posts? If so, in no way did I imply that the City should give Khan whatever he wants. Merely that the City and various public agencies need to be ready to play big league ball and hold up their end of the partnership.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on April 30, 2018, 10:42:30 PM
If he bought some stadium somewhere in North America, then I'd be concerned. There are still so many logistical challenges with a team in London it's not even funny. Yes, the potential money has a way of "easing" some of those, but I'm still not seeing this at any point soon.

I think the NFL would need to be in a position where they could base 2 (or ideally 4) teams in Europe, as the logistics for these teams (and their opponents) would be brutal. If you have 2 teams over there, then you can start to ease the number of trips across the pond - if you go over, then you play both teams, when they come over they play 2-3 in a row on the road, etc.

I also think that in order for this to happen, they are likely going to try out another city besides London to compliment it (perhaps Munich or Berlin). Not sure I can see 2 teams in London that then would have to fill the place a total of 20 times.

I wonder if the travel thing isn't vastly overblown. This is the NFL. It's not like they're operating on some razor-thin margin. And as for the physical toll on the players... a first-class flight to London can't be any more taxing than playing a football game.

Not sure if I'd say it's overblown. The NFL Players Association already has made a point in the past regarding east coast-west coast trips. I recognize that east coast to London isn't THAT different than say NY-LA. But, West Coast to London is a legit haul. If the Chargers or 49ers have to do that on a regular basis, that will take a toll.

The current CBA expires after the 2020 season. So, there would have to be huge concessions made by both sides to get the language in the next CBA.

Article 12 of the CBA goes into what is considered AR (All Revenues). You can get a good idea of the revenue that Khan can generate by owning Wembley.

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on May 01, 2018, 09:13:34 AM
Everbank letters came off the stadium yesterday.  Unfortunately they went into a dumpster.  I wanted to grab one, but they are huge.  Even the little letter r was taller than 6'.

I have some photos I will try to post.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on May 01, 2018, 11:46:32 AM
Everbank letters came off the stadium yesterday.  Unfortunately they went into a dumpster.  I wanted to grab one, but they are huge.  Even the little letter r was taller than 6'.

I have some photos I will try to post.

Similar to the Greyhound logo that just got shipped to a warehouse in Orlando, you'd think that there would be some value to retaining stadium signage in case we ever decided to open a local sports museum.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on May 01, 2018, 12:12:33 PM
I take exception to some comments a few days back that said effectively that Jacksonville needs to hurry up and give Khan the development deal he wants, or face losing the Jags. What Jacksonville really needs to do is work with Khan on a realistic deal that makes sense for the city, weighing the benefits to the team against the costs of the deal and the opportunity cost of what else we could do with the money. If there's a deal out there that works out, grab it. If not, pass. Not all deals that Khan may pitch are good for the city.

I presume this is directed towards my earlier posts? If so, in no way did I imply that the City should give Khan whatever he wants. Merely that the City and various public agencies need to be ready to play big league ball and hold up their end of the partnership.

I don't remember who posted what exactly, but yeah - the city should be ready to play big league ball, but that means determining what's really a good deal, and what's rolling over. I don't think folks appreciate how close we were to giving away the store in 2015 when this was all first proposed.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on May 01, 2018, 12:38:32 PM
Everbank letters came off the stadium yesterday.  Unfortunately they went into a dumpster.  I wanted to grab one, but they are huge.  Even the little letter r was taller than 6'.

I have some photos I will try to post.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/949/26961666317_57645d6e31_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/H5vA4P)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/823/41787505872_bff046a47b_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26EBTDb)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/828/41787506742_fd1e1d99c8_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26EBTUb)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/959/26961665847_cac7263152_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/H5vzVH)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on May 02, 2018, 10:49:56 AM
^Great pics!

Thanks for sharing!

We've talked a lot about whether the market is there for new office space downtown.

Here's a look at where things currently stand:

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/05/02/q1-office-reports-kbj-moves-into-bank-of-america.html
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: remc86007 on May 02, 2018, 11:48:21 AM
I can't believe some local bar owner hasn't taken the letters to have a massive illuminated sign that reads: Beer.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on May 17, 2018, 10:26:38 AM
Per the JBJ:

1) The Jags plan to present a final development plan for Lot J by the end of the year.
2) Parking isn't a top priority for the Jags with Lot J. From the sounds of it, the parking garage might come later. They'd rather focus on a dense, walkable, pedestrian-friendly development than accommodate parking and vehicular traffic.
3) The city will soon begin adding in clean fill over the contaminated areas of Lot J
4) Unlike the Shipyards, the Jags are committed to coming up with the best design for the property and then addressing the contamination, rather than working around the existing contamination as they design
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 08, 2018, 09:18:54 PM
Quote
Mark Lamping says he hopes a deal on team’s huge sports-complex development can go before City Council this year.

Jacksonville Jaguars President Mark Lamping said he hopes an economic development deal can go before City Council by the end of the year so work can start on a “new neighborhood” of apartments, offices, hotels, entertainment venues and convention space in the sports complex area of downtown.

“I’m really confident we’re going to get to a very good place that not only puts the project at a reasonable risk-reward for us, but will make a lot of sense to the city as well as the taxpayers,” Lamping said in a meeting with the Times-Union editorial board...

Lamping said the goal is to have as much of the construction under way simultaneously as possible, adding “if we can in essence bring a neighborhood up at the same time, it has a much better chance of being successful.”

“What we don’t want to see happen is one project is done one year followed by a second one a year later and third one two or three years after that,” he said. “We want to get as much going as we can at the same time.”...

Khan is teaming up with the Cordish Companies for Lot J, which would have an entertainment venue with restaurants and gathering areas similar to what Cordish has built near sports venues in other cities. Lamping said it is a 50-50 partnership.

He said it will require support as well from the city, which will be part of the negotiations.

“There’s a reason there aren’t a lot of [construction] cranes in downtown Jacksonville,” he said. “It’s not as if there’s an unlimited number of developers out there ready to write huge checks, because there still is some risk involved.

Lamping also mentioned that the Jags are putting up some pretty insane numbers. 90% renewal rate for existing season ticket holders, plus over 10,000 new season tickets sold in the offseason. Best in the league.

Full story:
http://www.jacksonville.com/news/20180608/jags-president-talks-downtown-ticket-prices-and-more-games-in-london
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on June 10, 2018, 10:54:49 AM
It is interesting that VyStar looking into move by the stadium with Kahn’s plan. I understand that the project is probably a long way off but the prospect of business moving to that area doesn’t seem so far fetched.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 10, 2018, 01:59:50 PM
Wonder why they rejected the Khan plan.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on June 10, 2018, 02:17:31 PM
Probably timeline but I'm glad they did. DT needs as much infill and density in its heart as possible.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 10, 2018, 02:27:11 PM
^Agreed.

It was also very important to Vystar to select a location that would have the most immediate impact on downtown revitalization efforts. And they wanted to do it with no public incentives, as they felt it wouldn't be right to try to fund their move using the tax dollars of their customers.

All around good-guy move by Vystar, that not only puts 600 new workers downtown, but also eliminates a lot of the city's lease liability to Southeast for the new Trio garage.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 10, 2018, 02:38:34 PM
Too long at Lot J and wanted to make an impact downtown...yet didn't build a suburban campus because of price.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on June 10, 2018, 02:48:25 PM
^Agreed.

It was also very important to Vystar to select a location that would have the most immediate impact on downtown revitalization efforts. And they wanted to do it with no public incentives, as they felt it wouldn't be right to try to fund their move using the tax dollars of their customers.

All around good-guy move by Vystar, that not only puts 600 new workers downtown, but also eliminates a lot of the city's lease liability to Southeast for the new Trio garage.

Agreed! No incentives from the city was a big time move by VyStar. I hope they can influence others to do the same.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on June 11, 2018, 12:50:22 PM
How many NFL teams would be willing to play one of their "home" games in Khan's stadium? Financially it could make sense, but if the Jags develop a real crowd advantage, then I don't see other owners agreeing to that.

Wembley could be a good thing for Jax and the Jags. However, if the team does not meet financial goals locally, I could see this creeping toward more than one home game in London.

The Jaguars would have a very difficult time selling additional home games in London to the fans in Jacksonville. If fans begin to see this venture as a gradual creep across the Atlantic, they'll stop supporting the team altogether. If that happens, so much for increasing local revenue.

But if Khan owns Wembley, he might have the leverage to lure other NFL teams to give up home games to play the Jaguars in London. From a competitive standpoint, home-field advantage matters a lot less in the NFL than it does in college, particularly during the regular season. A Jaguar-heavy crowd would not be as much of an issue with getting another team to come play in London.

In college football, we've had a huge increase in these "neutral site" games early in the year. They're so lucrative that Florida and Michigan get more money by splitting the revenue from a game in Dallas than they do by keeping all of the money from a game in Gainesville/Ann Arbor. Since Khan doesn't have to rent the facility, the financials of a "neutral site" game between the Chargers and Jaguars might begin to look more attractive for both teams than a game in LA, where they can't even fill an MLS stadium. The Chargers, or many other small-market teams, could do better with half the money from a London game than all of the money from a home game. And obviously the Jags would be happy to take half the money from a London game than none of the money from a traditional road game.

And the fans in Jacksonville don't care a lick how many road games the Jaguars play in London.

Hmmmm....

Quote
He said the team’s annual home game in London remains crucial for the franchise, and Jaguars owner Shad Khan would like to play a second game in London in a future season if it could be done through back-to-back games. Lamping emphasized that if the Jaguars played a second London game, it would be for one of the team’s road games so it wouldn’t take another home game from Jaguars fans.

“Shad would like to see that, I think, if it made sense for us,” he said.

Smart guy.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 11, 2018, 01:48:21 PM
Here is what we know:

Khan awarded Shipyards rights in 2015 - never built anything.

Khan awarded development rights again in April 2017 - year later and all we have is a new set of drawings.

One company we know of expressed interest in anchoring Khan development ultimately said No Thanks.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 11, 2018, 02:36:25 PM
Quote
He said the team’s annual home game in London remains crucial for the franchise, and Jaguars owner Shad Khan would like to play a second game in London in a future season if it could be done through back-to-back games. Lamping emphasized that if the Jaguars played a second London game, it would be for one of the team’s road games so it wouldn’t take another home game from Jaguars fans.

“Shad would like to see that, I think, if it made sense for us,” he said.

Smart guy.

Nice sentiment from Lamping, but I don't buy it.

What NFL owner at all concerned with winning is going to agree to sacrifice one of their own home games in order to fly overseas and play a well-rested Jags team in London, in a stadium that has been their second home field since 2013?

Nobody is going to agree to this, it puts the Jags at too much of an advantage.

The only way a second London game possibly makes sense is as a home game.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 11, 2018, 02:52:13 PM
Here is what we know:

Khan awarded Shipyards rights in 2015 - never built anything.

Khan awarded development rights again in April 2017 - year later and all we have is a new set of drawings.

One company we know of expressed interest in anchoring Khan development ultimately said No Thanks.

I think that's a slanted look at it. You then also have to consider

 - The Scoreboards and Pools
 - The Stadium Club Renovations
 - Daily's Place and the Flex Field

Those have all been completed.

Plus, is the fact that VyStar decided on the downtown core a knock on Khan?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 11, 2018, 02:54:45 PM
Quote
He said the team’s annual home game in London remains crucial for the franchise, and Jaguars owner Shad Khan would like to play a second game in London in a future season if it could be done through back-to-back games. Lamping emphasized that if the Jaguars played a second London game, it would be for one of the team’s road games so it wouldn’t take another home game from Jaguars fans.

“Shad would like to see that, I think, if it made sense for us,” he said.

Smart guy.

Nice sentiment from Lamping, but I don't buy it.

What NFL owner at all concerned with winning is going to agree to sacrifice one of their own home games in order to fly overseas and play a well-rested Jags team in London, in a stadium that has been their second home field since 2013?

Nobody is going to agree to this, it puts the Jags at too much of an advantage.

The only way a second London game possibly makes sense is as a home game.



A team that wants to make much more from The Gate in Wembley (remember the home team gets the ticket sales and revenue as if it was in their main stadium). The Money Khan is getting doesn't come from that; Khan would get the money that the FA currently gets every time a home game is there, which is separate.

For about 1/3 of the teams in the NFL, they make considerably more in London than they do at their main stadium, regardless of who owns the stadium.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on June 11, 2018, 04:27:38 PM
Quote
He said the team’s annual home game in London remains crucial for the franchise, and Jaguars owner Shad Khan would like to play a second game in London in a future season if it could be done through back-to-back games. Lamping emphasized that if the Jaguars played a second London game, it would be for one of the team’s road games so it wouldn’t take another home game from Jaguars fans.

“Shad would like to see that, I think, if it made sense for us,” he said.

Smart guy.

Nice sentiment from Lamping, but I don't buy it.

What NFL owner at all concerned with winning is going to agree to sacrifice one of their own home games in order to fly overseas and play a well-rested Jags team in London, in a stadium that has been their second home field since 2013?

Nobody is going to agree to this, it puts the Jags at too much of an advantage.

The only way a second London game possibly makes sense is as a home game.

I think you underestimate the willingness of sports administrators to trade a competitive advantage for a big payday. Look at college football: Auburn opens 2018 with Washington in Atlanta. They could easily play Eastern Washington at Jordan-Hare and still make the College Football Playoff, but they'll make more money playing in the Chick-Fil-A Kickoff game. So that's what they're going to do.

I'm not sure why you think an NFL owner wouldn't make that same deal, in a league where winning each week is FAR less important to his bottom line. NFL owners in Cincinnati, Tampa, Indianapolis, Cleveland, Detroit, Arizona, Tennessee, Minnesota, Buffalo, Miami and Los Angeles would be lining up for the opportunity to play the "visiting" Jaguars in London.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on June 11, 2018, 04:42:15 PM
^ I'm not sure I agree that every team on that list would be willing to play a home game against the Jaguars in London, but certainly some will.

Within the next few years, it's going to become clear that smaller market teams without secondary market support and/or strong investment from ownership are going to be the ones struggling to compete financially.  Cincinnati and Buffalo in particular come to mind - the Bengals' ownership has always been notoriously cheap, and fan support seems to be dwindling, while Buffalo has an aging stadium and fans who aren't willing to accept a ticket price bump.  The L.A. Chargers, as a distant second fiddle in a big market, following a badly handled relocation process, could be disadvantaged as well.  And so could Indianapolis if its fortunes on the field don't improve, because years of mismanagement and over-reliance on the security blanket of quarterbacking are taking their toll on ticket sales, plus its owner is insane.

Jacksonville's lack of secondary market support could have put the Jaguars in the same tenuous situation.  I increasingly think the London game is a coup for the team and the city, particularly if Khan is able to purchase Wembley and add rental revenues from teams that are going to be in a more precarious situation in their home markets.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 11, 2018, 09:00:06 PM
Here is what we know:

Khan awarded Shipyards rights in 2015 - never built anything.

Khan awarded development rights again in April 2017 - year later and all we have is a new set of drawings.

One company we know of expressed interest in anchoring Khan development ultimately said No Thanks.

I think that's a slanted look at it. You then also have to consider

 - The Scoreboards and Pools
 - The Stadium Club Renovations
 - Daily's Place and the Flex Field

Those have all been completed.

Plus, is the fact that VyStar decided on the downtown core a knock on Khan?

Typical Khan mode of operation: I'm going to do great things for Jax but do these 3 things for me first.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2018, 07:51:45 AM
Here is what we know:

Khan awarded Shipyards rights in 2015 - never built anything.

Khan awarded development rights again in April 2017 - year later and all we have is a new set of drawings.

One company we know of expressed interest in anchoring Khan development ultimately said No Thanks.

I think that's a slanted look at it. You then also have to consider

 - The Scoreboards and Pools
 - The Stadium Club Renovations
 - Daily's Place and the Flex Field

Those have all been completed.

Plus, is the fact that VyStar decided on the downtown core a knock on Khan?

Typical Khan mode of operation: I'm going to do great things for Jax but do these 3 things for me first.

Make no mistake: they are ALL for Khan. He’s not a charity, he’s not doing this unless he can make money. Plus, how can you say that the public doesn’t benefit from Daily’s place. I’ll grant you that the Jaguar fans are the beneficiary of the first two, but Daily’s Place is critically important to the area
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 12, 2018, 08:59:01 AM
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2018, 09:23:03 AM
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on June 12, 2018, 09:45:07 AM
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

Yeah, that's really silly. Khan paid for half of the Daily's Place project, which the practice field and stadium improvements. The city owns all three of those facilities. Plus, it would have to contract some operator to run Daily's Place anyway. It was as good a deal for the city as it could possibly be - how do you turn down someone offering to go halves on city-owned, revenue generating properties, including an amphitheater that has been badly needed since the 90s?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on June 12, 2018, 09:52:47 AM
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 12, 2018, 10:14:02 AM
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.

It can be expanded to 75k for the Super Bowl, but I do agree with your point-the Flordia Georgia game is about Butts in the Seats first, and amenities second. As long as it can achieve that balance in Jacksonville then I think it’s fine. Longer term, I think the driver could be UGA’s athletics department. For UF, it’s a 90 minute bus ride. For UGA, it involves an airplane. Atlanta is to UGA distancewise as Jacksonville is to UF.

Do I think the game is truly in danger now? Presently no. However, this was a real concern prior to landing the Jaguars as the old Gator Bowl badly needed improvement.

As long as the stadium is a top tier facility and the game is financially viable for both schools, why change a good thing.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on June 12, 2018, 10:50:57 AM
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.

It can be expanded to 75k for the Super Bowl, but I do agree with your point-the Flordia Georgia game is about Butts in the Seats first, and amenities second. As long as it can achieve that balance in Jacksonville then I think it’s fine. Longer term, I think the driver could be UGA’s athletics department. For UF, it’s a 90 minute bus ride. For UGA, it involves an airplane. Atlanta is to UGA distancewise as Jacksonville is to UF.

Do I think the game is truly in danger now? Presently no. However, this was a real concern prior to landing the Jaguars as the old Gator Bowl badly needed improvement.

As long as the stadium is a top tier facility and the game is financially viable for both schools, why change a good thing.

I don't see the UGA Athletics department ever pushing for Atlanta unless they the teams could make more money there. The push to either add Atlanta or shift to home-and-away mostly comes from Georgia fans in years where they're consistently losing. The school itself is all about the money, and so far, that's in Jacksonville.

Both schools would lose a lot of money going home-and-away, so I can't see them ever doing that. If they could make more money in Atlanta, I'd see that as a bigger threat. But I don't see how that would work logistically. It's a smaller stadium, the city (which already has 3 major college football games a year and a million other things going on) has no incentive to cut a sweetheart deal, and Florida has no real reason to change.

Over the long term, there's definitely a risk we lose it. But there's also a chance that in 30 years no one cares about college football anymore anyway. What we need to do is keep focusing on our periodic contracts when they come up to make sure they're winners for all involved.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 12, 2018, 11:27:12 AM
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

There are a lot of shades of gray here.

Daily's Place is a huge net positive for the area and fills a gap that we've been trying to fill since the 1990's.

And though I wouldn't characterize it as a terrible deal for the city, I can at least understand Kerry's point of view.

Total breakdown for the $90 million project, which the city split equally with Khan, was:

$20 million - Jaguars Practice Field
$25 million - Assure Club Renovations
$45 million - Daily's Place

The widely accepted narrative is that Khan went in half with the city on a $45 million ampitheater.

The flip-side of the narrative, which people don't talk about as much, is that this must also mean that the city paid half for a $20 million practice field for a $2.1 billion private business, and half for $25 million club seat upgrades which the Jags obviously benefit from much more than the city does.

I think a more accurate way to look at the project is:

- The Jags funded a $20 million practice facility.
- The Jags and city split the $25 million club seat upgrades 50/50
- The city spent $32.5 million on Daily's Place, with the Jags kicking in $12.5 million

As the city owns all three properties, we are responsible for maintenance, upkeep, and utilities for all three venues, including the Jaguars' practice facility.

Somehow though, the Jaguars get to keep 100% of naming rights revenue from the club section (USS Assure), the practice field (Dream Finders) and the amphitheater (Daily's), in addition to using a city-owned, city-funded practice field rent-free, and getting a cut of all of the profits at Daily's Place through Bold Events.

Whatever, it came from bed taxes, not the general fund, which have to be used for this type of project anyway.

I ain't mad, the arrangement seems fine with all parties.

We got a much needed asset in Daily's Place, and built some goodwill with Khan and the Jags, which is the price to pay to be in the NFL game in 2018.

But I do think it's a mischaracterization to label Daily's Place as some kind of altruistic 50/50 gift from the Jags to the city without in turn mentioning the practice field and club upgrades as 50/50 gifts from the city to a private corporation.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on June 12, 2018, 12:27:09 PM
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.

It can be expanded to 75k for the Super Bowl, but I do agree with your point-the Flordia Georgia game is about Butts in the Seats first, and amenities second. As long as it can achieve that balance in Jacksonville then I think it’s fine. Longer term, I think the driver could be UGA’s athletics department. For UF, it’s a 90 minute bus ride. For UGA, it involves an airplane. Atlanta is to UGA distancewise as Jacksonville is to UF.

Do I think the game is truly in danger now? Presently no. However, this was a real concern prior to landing the Jaguars as the old Gator Bowl badly needed improvement.

As long as the stadium is a top tier facility and the game is financially viable for both schools, why change a good thing.

I don't see the UGA Athletics department ever pushing for Atlanta unless they the teams could make more money there. The push to either add Atlanta or shift to home-and-away mostly comes from Georgia fans in years where they're consistently losing. The school itself is all about the money, and so far, that's in Jacksonville.

Both schools would lose a lot of money going home-and-away, so I can't see them ever doing that. If they could make more money in Atlanta, I'd see that as a bigger threat. But I don't see how that would work logistically. It's a smaller stadium, the city (which already has 3 major college football games a year and a million other things going on) has no incentive to cut a sweetheart deal, and Florida has no real reason to change.

Over the long term, there's definitely a risk we lose it. But there's also a chance that in 30 years no one cares about college football anymore anyway. What we need to do is keep focusing on our periodic contracts when they come up to make sure they're winners for all involved.

The only scenario where I see Atlanta getting involved is if the agreement was a even/odd year switch between Jacksonville/Atlanta. With the assumption, that the Gator Bowl association could put on another college game the seasons that the game was in Atlanta.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 12, 2018, 01:42:31 PM
If the Bed Tax is generating that much revenue then either lower the tax, shift some to the general fund, or start spending it on other "tourism" projects.  Khan has $4 billion of his own money.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Jagsdrew on June 12, 2018, 01:46:48 PM
The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

There are a lot of shades of gray here.

Daily's Place is a huge net positive for the area and fills a gap that we've been trying to fill since the 1990's.

And though I wouldn't characterize it as a terrible deal for the city, I can at least understand Kerry's point of view.

Total breakdown for the $90 million project, which the city split equally with Khan, was:

$20 million - Jaguars Practice Field
$25 million - Assure Club Renovations
$45 million - Daily's Place

The widely accepted narrative is that Khan went in half with the city on a $45 million ampitheater.

The flip-side of the narrative, which people don't talk about as much, is that this must also mean that the city paid half for a $20 million practice field for a $2.1 billion private business, and half for $25 million club seat upgrades which the Jags obviously benefit from much more than the city does.

I think a more accurate way to look at the project is:

- The Jags funded a $20 million practice facility.
- The Jags and city split the $25 million club seat upgrades 50/50
- The city spent $32.5 million on Daily's Place, with the Jags kicking in $12.5 million

As the city owns all three properties, we are responsible for maintenance, upkeep, and utilities for all three venues, including the Jaguars' practice facility.

Somehow though, the Jaguars get to keep 100% of naming rights revenue from the club section (USS Assure), the practice field (Dream Finders) and the amphitheater (Daily's), in addition to using a city-owned, city-funded practice field rent-free, and getting a cut of all of the profits at Daily's Place through Bold Events.

Whatever, it came from bed taxes, not the general fund, which have to be used for this type of project anyway.

I ain't mad, the arrangement seems fine with all parties.

We got a much needed asset in Daily's Place, and built some goodwill with Khan and the Jags, which is the price to pay to be in the NFL game in 2018.

But I do think it's a mischaracterization to label Daily's Place as some kind of altruistic 50/50 gift from the Jags to the city without in turn mentioning the practice field and club upgrades as 50/50 gifts from the city to a private corporation.

The team has to find new revenue streams to stay profitable because let's be honest, the Jags haven't been a profitable team based of LOCAL revenue over the course of 10 years until the last 2 years or so.  With the taxpayer's help, these co-funded projects can help which is beneficial to the city and the team.
-City gets a new tax stream based off ticket purchases/fees/parking/concessions
-Jags get a revenue stream based off tickets/sponsorships/concessions

From the Jaguars POV, they have added resources and jobs(Full time and contract jobs) to help staff Daily's Place. Additionally, the revenue from concerts and other ancillary events help the bottom line for the city and Jaguars so its mutually beneficial. I would agree the Jaguars get the bigger slice of the pie though because Bold Events (aka the Jaguars) are on the hook to book and operate all the entertainment there so it's a lot on the Jaguars to make Daily's Place profitable. The city assists in some capacity, but 75% is on the Jags. 

The Jags do use a lot of their assets to promote events there(Jags.com, email database, season ticket members, etc) Additionally, they are spending media dollars back into the market with local advertisers (same with the concert promoters) to promote these events.

Even though small, the new US Assure Clubs host a wide variety of events in this space from events/parties to business meetings/functions which attracts more than they would with the old dated space thus bringing in additional dollars.

Even though the city foot half the bill if not more, I think the ROI over the course of 20+ years will benefit the city in the long run.





Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 12, 2018, 02:31:53 PM
Even though the city foot half the bill if not more, I think the ROI over the course of 20+ years will benefit the city in the long run.

I'm with you, totally agree that it's still a better deal than going it alone.

And even if we never ROI on paper, I think we ROI in terms of quality of life. I feel the same way about the Jags overall. Few economic studies are going to show that we ROI financially on our NFL investment, but the local quality-of-life impact of having the NFL in Jacksonville is damn near priceless.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on June 12, 2018, 03:24:33 PM
Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

I don't know who in Atlanta is still pushing that. If the stadium ownership wanted a shot at it, they ended their chances by making the new stadium seat only 71,000. I also don't see the City of Atlanta ever caring enough to cut the kind of deal Jacksonville has always been willing to do with our bigger stadium.

It can be expanded to 75k for the Super Bowl, but I do agree with your point-the Flordia Georgia game is about Butts in the Seats first, and amenities second. As long as it can achieve that balance in Jacksonville then I think it’s fine. Longer term, I think the driver could be UGA’s athletics department. For UF, it’s a 90 minute bus ride. For UGA, it involves an airplane. Atlanta is to UGA distancewise as Jacksonville is to UF.

Do I think the game is truly in danger now? Presently no. However, this was a real concern prior to landing the Jaguars as the old Gator Bowl badly needed improvement.

As long as the stadium is a top tier facility and the game is financially viable for both schools, why change a good thing.

I don't see the UGA Athletics department ever pushing for Atlanta unless they the teams could make more money there. The push to either add Atlanta or shift to home-and-away mostly comes from Georgia fans in years where they're consistently losing. The school itself is all about the money, and so far, that's in Jacksonville.

Both schools would lose a lot of money going home-and-away, so I can't see them ever doing that. If they could make more money in Atlanta, I'd see that as a bigger threat. But I don't see how that would work logistically. It's a smaller stadium, the city (which already has 3 major college football games a year and a million other things going on) has no incentive to cut a sweetheart deal, and Florida has no real reason to change.

Over the long term, there's definitely a risk we lose it. But there's also a chance that in 30 years no one cares about college football anymore anyway. What we need to do is keep focusing on our periodic contracts when they come up to make sure they're winners for all involved.

One other thing to consider with Florida-Georgia is the importance of that game for South Georgia folks. There are a lot of BIG money UGA people in Savannah, St. Simons and, well, Jacksonville for whom Athens is basically non-navigable. You can't get there from here. The game in Jacksonville has long been considered THEIR game, and they'll be damned if it's ever played in The Sin City Of The South.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 12, 2018, 04:45:35 PM
The Florida/Georgia game is a recruiting tool for Georgia - they don't want it moved.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on June 13, 2018, 09:12:35 AM
And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: exnewsman on June 13, 2018, 09:37:00 AM
ATL does offer the experience of tailgating in an underground parking garage. Hard to beat that.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 10:29:36 AM
And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.

Are you sure?

http://www.jacksonville.com/metro/business/2017-07-08/jaguars-bold-events-bring-unique-business-twist-downtown-jacksonville

Quote
Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan has long had multiple business operations, but one of his newest ventures, Bold Events LLC, reaches well beyond the team’s operations — a unique business angle that most NFL franchises simply don’t have.



But Capener said Khan’s initiative with Bold Events basically inserts the Jaguars franchise as the controlling entity over events at the stadium that is still technically owned by the city of Jacksonville


In 2015, the Jaguars reached an agreement with the city on the lease stipulations for the property including EverBank Field. Under the plan approved by the City Council, the Jaguars and Khan’s company, which was then known as American Thunder LLC and now called Bold Events, would cover operating costs for the amphitheater (Daily’s Place) and flex field (Jaguars indoor practice facility) venues and keep all ticket, concession and other revenues earned from events, except for a ticket and parking surcharge that the city would keep. The city would own both new venues.


The idea is to make the stadium area a more popular hub of activity that far exceeds its current use. And, of course, create more revenue.

In the process, Bold Events has become the controlling entity at a venue still technically owned by the city, not the Jaguars.

Sooner or later everyone needs to realize the Jags are a cancer.  Then when the Jags do relocate to London guess who still gets all the stadium money in Jax?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 11:55:05 AM
And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.

Are you sure?

http://www.jacksonville.com/metro/business/2017-07-08/jaguars-bold-events-bring-unique-business-twist-downtown-jacksonville

Quote
Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan has long had multiple business operations, but one of his newest ventures, Bold Events LLC, reaches well beyond the team’s operations — a unique business angle that most NFL franchises simply don’t have.



But Capener said Khan’s initiative with Bold Events basically inserts the Jaguars franchise as the controlling entity over events at the stadium that is still technically owned by the city of Jacksonville


In 2015, the Jaguars reached an agreement with the city on the lease stipulations for the property including EverBank Field. Under the plan approved by the City Council, the Jaguars and Khan’s company, which was then known as American Thunder LLC and now called Bold Events, would cover operating costs for the amphitheater (Daily’s Place) and flex field (Jaguars indoor practice facility) venues and keep all ticket, concession and other revenues earned from events, except for a ticket and parking surcharge that the city would keep. The city would own both new venues.


The idea is to make the stadium area a more popular hub of activity that far exceeds its current use. And, of course, create more revenue.

In the process, Bold Events has become the controlling entity at a venue still technically owned by the city, not the Jaguars.

Sooner or later everyone needs to realize the Jags are a cancer.  Then when the Jags do relocate to London guess who still gets all the stadium money in Jax?

Please explain why they are a cancer. I’d say pension liability is a cancer.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on June 13, 2018, 12:02:35 PM
And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.

Are you sure?

http://www.jacksonville.com/metro/business/2017-07-08/jaguars-bold-events-bring-unique-business-twist-downtown-jacksonville

Quote
Jacksonville Jaguars owner Shad Khan has long had multiple business operations, but one of his newest ventures, Bold Events LLC, reaches well beyond the team’s operations — a unique business angle that most NFL franchises simply don’t have.



But Capener said Khan’s initiative with Bold Events basically inserts the Jaguars franchise as the controlling entity over events at the stadium that is still technically owned by the city of Jacksonville


In 2015, the Jaguars reached an agreement with the city on the lease stipulations for the property including EverBank Field. Under the plan approved by the City Council, the Jaguars and Khan’s company, which was then known as American Thunder LLC and now called Bold Events, would cover operating costs for the amphitheater (Daily’s Place) and flex field (Jaguars indoor practice facility) venues and keep all ticket, concession and other revenues earned from events, except for a ticket and parking surcharge that the city would keep. The city would own both new venues.


The idea is to make the stadium area a more popular hub of activity that far exceeds its current use. And, of course, create more revenue.

In the process, Bold Events has become the controlling entity at a venue still technically owned by the city, not the Jaguars.

Sooner or later everyone needs to realize the Jags are a cancer.  Then when the Jags do relocate to London guess who still gets all the stadium money in Jax?

Please explain why they are a cancer. I’d say pension liability is a cancer.

The Jags are a runny nose if the Pension is a cancer.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 12:52:55 PM
Please explain why they are a cancer. I’d say pension liability is a cancer.

Because the taxpayers are fronting all the cost while permanently giving the profits to the Jags.  Jags get what they want in civic negotiations because the politicians are afraid of the fan base.  This isn't how local government is supposed to work.

Funny you bring up the pension because that problem exists for the same reason - city government writing check and making promises the taxpayers can't cash and can't keep.  Then who gets held accountable for the debacle?  Certainly not the people responsible.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 01:17:54 PM
Please explain why they are a cancer. I’d say pension liability is a cancer.

Because the taxpayers are fronting all the cost while permanently giving the profits to the Jags.  Jags get what they want in civic negotiations because the politicians are afraid of the fan base.  This isn't how local government is supposed to work.

Funny you bring up the pension because that problem exists for the same reason - city government writing check and making promises the taxpayers can't cash and can't keep.  Then who gets held accountable for the debacle?  Certainly not the people responsible.

Please explain how a 50/50 split of the costs is “fronting all of the costs”
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 01:32:56 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: remc86007 on June 13, 2018, 01:42:13 PM
^Doesn't the city still own the buildings and the improvements? Don't you think the city benefits by having the team here? I think there are far worse examples of public money creating private wealth.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 13, 2018, 01:56:42 PM
The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City.

*Tripled, if we're counting.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on June 13, 2018, 02:15:01 PM
Are you sure?

Sooner or later everyone needs to realize the Jags are a cancer.  Then when the Jags do relocate to London guess who still gets all the stadium money in Jax?

Yes I am sure.  Your quote is about bold events and the amphitheater, not the stadium.  The events I was talking about were all in the football stadium.  Your opinion is your opinion about football and cancer, you can choose to like or not like either.  I am just giving you facts.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 02:15:22 PM
^Doesn't the city still own the buildings and the improvements? Don't you think the city benefits by having the team here? I think there are far worse examples of public money creating private wealth.

Thanks for the reminder - we are responsible for all upkeep and maintenance.  No cost sharing there.

Does the City benefit from the team?  In my opinion that answer is No - it doesn't.  Do individual citizens benefit, yes the do.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 02:15:29 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we’re talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ’s contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.

That aside, there are an incredible number of indirect benefits to having the team here, in things like national exposure and quality of life. On game day, there are 65k in the Jacksonville area doing one thing, and a couple hundred thousand watching it on TV. Find me any other thing in Jacksonville where about 20% of the Metro Area is doing the exact same thing.

From a perspective thing when you think about other cities, the largest MSA without either a team in the four major sports is Austin, Texas. They are a bit of an exception as they have Texas’ flagship public university. After that is Virginia Beach-Norfolk, then Richmond, then Louisville. While I’d certainly wouldn’t mind having the economic growth of Austin, I definitely don’t want to be in Richmond’s or Norfolk’s shoes in terms of growth.

I definitely think the Jaguars deserve a portion of the credit for the economic growth.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 02:17:41 PM
^Doesn't the city still own the buildings and the improvements? Don't you think the city benefits by having the team here? I think there are far worse examples of public money creating private wealth.

Thanks for the reminder - we are responsible for all upkeep and maintenance.  No cost sharing there.

Does the City benefit from the team?  In my opinion that answer is No - it doesn't.  Do individual citizens benefit, yes the do.

Again, not true. Much of the club renovations were for maintenance, not aesthetics. For example, the club air conditioners barely worked in the last couple years-they were 24 years old so not shocking. The Jaguars paid HALF of the bill. Again I ask, how is that not splitting costs?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on June 13, 2018, 02:18:16 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we’re talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ’s contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.

That aside, there are an incredible number of indirect benefits to having the team here, in things like national exposure and quality of life. On game day, there are 65k in the Jacksonville area doing one thing, and a couple hundred thousand watching it on TV. Find me any other thing in Jacksonville where about 20% of the Metro Area is doing the exact same thing.

From a perspective thing when you think about other cities, the largest MSA without either a team in the four major sports is Austin, Texas. They are a bit of an exception as they have Texas’ flagship public university. After that is Virginia Beach-Norfolk, then Richmond, then Louisville. While I’d certainly wouldn’t mind having the economic growth of Austin, I definitely don’t want to be in Richmond’s or Norfolk’s shoes in terms of growth.

I definitely think the Jaguars deserve a portion of the credit for the economic growth.

I wish this site had a "Like" button.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 02:19:26 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we’re talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ’s contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.


You may wish to revisit your math.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 02:22:38 PM
Yes I am sure.  Your quote is about bold events and the amphitheater, not the stadium.  The events I was talking about were all in the football stadium.  Your opinion is your opinion about football and cancer, you can choose to like or not like either.  I am just giving you facts.

Well, I kind of look at all the Khan enterprises as a collective unit.  They are only divided up for contract, tax and accounting reasons but for all practical purposes - they are all one entity.  They all have the same mission.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 02:25:01 PM
While I’d certainly wouldn’t mind having the economic growth of Austin, I definitely don’t want to be in Richmond’s or Norfolk’s shoes in terms of growth.

I definitely think the Jaguars deserve a portion of the credit for the economic growth.

Maybe their lack of economic growth is because they're in VA. Or maybe it's because they start with letters that come later in the alphabet. Both 'hypothoses' are just as reasonable as randomly assuming that the presence of a professional football team is the reason for purported better growth on the part of Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 02:27:51 PM
Sure they contribute to quality of life and maybe to some extent economic development (although when factoring in opportunity cost - that is probably a negative).  I guess my big issue is, why can't they do it without public subsidies?

Khan is buying Wimble Stadium for nearly a billion dollars - maybe Jax should offer him a package deal for the Stadium, Daily Place, practice field, and parking lots - $300 million and he gets the whole thing and all the revenue and expenses.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on June 13, 2018, 02:30:22 PM
Yes I am sure.  Your quote is about bold events and the amphitheater, not the stadium.  The events I was talking about were all in the football stadium.  Your opinion is your opinion about football and cancer, you can choose to like or not like either.  I am just giving you facts.

Well, I kind of look at all the Khan enterprises as a collective unit.  They are only divided up for contract, tax and accounting reasons but for all practical purposes - they are all one entity.  They all have the same mission.

Fair enough...

And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.

But above is my quote you were trying to debunk.  FL/GA, Gator Bowl, Monster Jam, random soccer games etc, have nothing to do with the thing you call "Khan Enterprises" (I don't think that is a thing, but I will run with it)  The city runs those and makes money from those, not the Jags.  You took my quote and posted another quote from the newspaper that is completely irrelevant to what I was saying.  That is all. 

To your point (which, again had nothing to do with my point), yes Bold Events makes money from the amphitheater.  Yes the Jags use the Practice Facility.  But the city owns and runs all the buildings, and the Jags contribute a lot to those buildings (paid 50%).  This is a partnership that helps everyone. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: jaxjags on June 13, 2018, 02:37:16 PM
Sure glad Kerry didn’t live in Jax in 1989.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 02:42:07 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we’re talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ’s contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.


You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 02:45:23 PM
Yes I am sure.  Your quote is about bold events and the amphitheater, not the stadium.  The events I was talking about were all in the football stadium.  Your opinion is your opinion about football and cancer, you can choose to like or not like either.  I am just giving you facts.

Well, I kind of look at all the Khan enterprises as a collective unit.  They are only divided up for contract, tax and accounting reasons but for all practical purposes - they are all one entity.  They all have the same mission.

Fair enough...

And also don't forget, the other events, FL/GA, Bowl Game, Monster Jam, US Soccer and whatever else have nothing to do with the Jaguars and Khan.  They make nothing on those events, thats all city.  So the clubs and scoreboards etc are a benefit to the city.

But above is my quote you were trying to debunk.  FL/GA, Gator Bowl, Monster Jam, random soccer games etc, have nothing to do with the thing you call "Khan Enterprises" (I don't think that is a thing, but I will run with it)  The city runs those and makes money from those, not the Jags.  You took my quote and posted another quote from the newspaper that is completely irrelevant to what I was saying.  That is all. 

To your point (which, again had nothing to do with my point), yes Bold Events makes money from the amphitheater.  Yes the Jags use the Practice Facility.  But the city owns and runs all the buildings, and the Jags contribute a lot to those buildings (paid 50%).  This is a partnership that helps everyone. 

That is 100% correct. Those events aren’t run whatsoever by the Jaguars or the “evil Mr. Khan”
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 02:53:33 PM
The City owning the buildings aren't necessarily a positive for me - I would prefer the Jags own them and put them on the tax rolls.  Want the team to stay here, a $300 million anchor would do that better than any lease.

Yes, the events you listed are City run and would exist if the Jags were here or not.  However, there is also an opportunity cost that comes with the Jags in that the stadium in unusable for those types of event for a large portion of the year.  On that note, Monster Jam has been moved to the arena .
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 02:57:08 PM
Sure glad Kerry didn’t live in Jax in 1989.

It wouldn't have mattered.  I am vastly out numbered either way :)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 03:07:33 PM
While I’d certainly wouldn’t mind having the economic growth of Austin, I definitely don’t want to be in Richmond’s or Norfolk’s shoes in terms of growth.

I definitely think the Jaguars deserve a portion of the credit for the economic growth.

Maybe their lack of economic growth is because they're in VA. Or maybe it's because they start with letters that come later in the alphabet. Both 'hypothoses' are just as reasonable as randomly assuming that the presence of a professional football team is the reason for purported better growth on the part of Jax.

“The” reason for growth? Definitely not, nor did I ever (or would ever) say that. A catalyst that plays a role? I think it would be hard to argue otherwise. The area gets, by a rough calculation, 50 hours a year of TV commercials, which doesn’t include social, radio, etc. I think any company would take that.

Now, to be fair: I’m not talking about regions that spend a billion dollars on a stadium in one shot. That you really could never justify.

By my math, the COJ has spent $153M in the last 25 years (excluding Jaguars’ contributions)
$53M in 1994-5 (to build)
$12M in 2002-4
$43M in 2013 (scoreboards, north end zone, pools)
$45M in 2015 (Daily’s Place Flex Field, Clubs)

Compared to other cities, that’s really not bad.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 03:08:39 PM
The City owning the buildings aren't necessarily a positive for me - I would prefer the Jags own them and put them on the tax rolls.  Want the team to stay here, a $300 million anchor would do that better than any lease.

Yes, the events you listed are City run and would exist if the Jags were here or not.  However, there is also an opportunity cost that comes with the Jags in that the stadium in unusable for those types of event for a large portion of the year.  On that note, Monster Jam has been moved to the arena .

The the city would get much less each year from Florida-Georgia, and then Downtown’s benefit from those events are at risk. I’d love to see how that makes sense.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 03:18:24 PM
The City owning the buildings aren't necessarily a positive for me - I would prefer the Jags own them and put them on the tax rolls.  Want the team to stay here, a $300 million anchor would do that better than any lease.

Yes, the events you listed are City run and would exist if the Jags were here or not.  However, there is also an opportunity cost that comes with the Jags in that the stadium in unusable for those types of event for a large portion of the year.  On that note, Monster Jam has been moved to the arena .

Also. The stadium is unuseable because of the Jags about 12 days a year, the city was in serious jeopardy of losing the Florida-Georgia game before the Jags came due to the fact that the place was in disrepair.

Also, Monster Jam didn’t move to the Arena. There is a second smaller show called Triple Threat that will be in the Arena. The main show is stil at the stadium (was in March)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JBTripper on June 13, 2018, 03:20:40 PM
Kerry doesn't like a thing, and everyone else is stupid for liking that thing he doesn't like.

If the city has spent $153 million over 25 years, that comes to about $7 per Duval County resident each year. That's a lot cheaper than cancer.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 03:20:58 PM
The the city would get much less each year from Florida-Georgia, and then Downtown’s benefit from those events are at risk. I’d love to see how that makes sense.

Easily made up for in property taxes on the facilities.  Alas, I seriously doubt Khan would want to buy them, but I would like to see the City make the offer just the same.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 03:22:13 PM
Kerry doesn't like a thing, and everyone else is stupid for liking that thing he doesn't like.

Was that necessary?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: jaxjags on June 13, 2018, 03:23:51 PM
Sure glad Kerry didn’t live in Jax in 1989.

It wouldn't have mattered.  I am vastly out numbered either way :)

My point was that Jax was considered a smelly (paper mills) backwater town you had to pass through to get to south Florida. There was very little development going on anywhere in Jax. Believe it or not the Jags put Jax the map. Today I wouldn’t move here because of Jags but at least I know it exists and should check it out.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on June 13, 2018, 03:30:49 PM
As far as economics go, the positives and negatives of stadium and sports spending is exaggerated on both ends. They aren't the gravy fountain the supporters claim, or the colossal drain the detractors claim. From what I've read, they're really about even money - the revenues they bring in about covers the cost to the city. There are downsides to that - it's a huge opportunity cost, that could have been spent on something else. But there are also upsides. Namely, it's a quality of life expense. It's something that makes people - a lot of people - happy, it brings them together, and gives them a sense of pride about their city. Sports, like art, parks, libraries, and festivals, are quality-of-life expenses.

This is from one of the various studies of sports team spending. It's something the critics usually don't acknowledge:

"Sport facilities and teams create a variety of benefits that are completely unrelated to their ability to generate jobs or income. The cultural importance and psychological benefits associated with professional sport teams likely outweigh their economic impacts, providing residents a common ground, a topic of conversation, and sometimes a source of pride. An entire region can benefit from an enhanced central city image, and many believe that professional sports teams simply improve quality of life. Residents never need purchase a ticket to derive utility from a sports team. These benefits exist regardless of any contribution of the team or facility to the local economy."

By Charles A. Santo, "Cities, Stadiums, and Subsidies: Why Cities Spend So Much on Sports" (https://books.google.com/books?id=aVp6dWPKRmEC&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=%22outweigh+their+economic+impacts,+providing%22&source=bl&ots=AYGsL5gxqW&sig=Ez-xIcyLWesU9lMhwhrBRDLYD10&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtoMPnjZrSAhVnqVQKHQYwDkcQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22outweigh%20their%20economic%20impacts%2C%20providing%22&f=false), p. 87. In Sport and Public Policy: Social, Political, and Economic Perspectives, 2010.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on June 13, 2018, 03:37:04 PM
I have to say I find comparing the posts of "The Jags were the second coming" to "the Jags are the anti-christ" pretty funny. It reminds me of watching a cable news segment.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 03:48:19 PM
I have to say I find comparing the posts of "The Jags were the second coming" to "the Jags are the anti-christ" pretty funny. It reminds me of watching a cable news segment.

I would be willing to play my part on a TV show if anyone is interested.  Does Public Access TV still exist?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 03:54:24 PM


My point was that Jax was considered a smelly (paper mills) backwater town you had to pass through to get to south Florida. There was very little development going on anywhere in Jax. Believe it or not the Jags put Jax the map. Today I wouldn’t move here because of Jags but at least I know it exists and should check it out.

It couldn't have been that bad - they convinced the NFL to expand here.  Of course, being a sport fans, especially college football, I always knew about the Gator Bowl and Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on June 13, 2018, 03:55:26 PM
I have to say I find comparing the posts of "The Jags were the second coming" to "the Jags are the anti-christ" pretty funny. It reminds me of watching a cable news segment.

I would be willing to play my part on a TV show if anyone is interested.  Does Public Access TV still exist?

Hmmmm....could be a way for someone to sell some books. If only there was someone who could take the other part.....but I am drawing a blank.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: sanmarcomatt on June 13, 2018, 04:01:27 PM


My point was that Jax was considered a smelly (paper mills) backwater town you had to pass through to get to south Florida. There was very little development going on anywhere in Jax. Believe it or not the Jags put Jax the map. Today I wouldn’t move here because of Jags but at least I know it exists and should check it out.

It couldn't have been that bad - they convinced the NFL to expand here.  Of course, being a sport fans, especially college football, I always knew about the Gator Bowl and Jax.

You are way off. If it wasn't for the Jags, the downtown would probably suck, most of the growth would be in the boonies, and our major accomplishment would probably be a big outdoor mall.

Wait a minute....
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 04:37:46 PM


My point was that Jax was considered a smelly (paper mills) backwater town you had to pass through to get to south Florida. There was very little development going on anywhere in Jax. Believe it or not the Jags put Jax the map. Today I wouldn’t move here because of Jags but at least I know it exists and should check it out.

It couldn't have been that bad - they convinced the NFL to expand here.  Of course, being a sport fans, especially college football, I always knew about the Gator Bowl and Jax.

Jacksonville got a little lucky, but yes in the end the argument was successful:

-Commissioner Tagliabue championed new markets that were popular for college football:
-The leaders of the St Louis and Baltimore bids (which were considered the leaders) had some issues. St Louis had multiple ownership groups that had some infighting going on, and the league was afraid of pissing off the Redskins’ ownership by being too close (yes-I agree that makes no sense considering Baltimore had a team until 1982ish). The other contender was Memphis but their plans for the Liberty Bowl were less than impressive.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 04:58:45 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we’re talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ’s contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.


You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.

No, the math is wrong. If the Jaguars gave $90M and the COJ gave $45M, that's not 50/50. That's 67/33 (roughly).
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 05:03:08 PM
While I’d certainly wouldn’t mind having the economic growth of Austin, I definitely don’t want to be in Richmond’s or Norfolk’s shoes in terms of growth.

I definitely think the Jaguars deserve a portion of the credit for the economic growth.

Maybe their lack of economic growth is because they're in VA. Or maybe it's because they start with letters that come later in the alphabet. Both 'hypothoses' are just as reasonable as randomly assuming that the presence of a professional football team is the reason for purported better growth on the part of Jax.

“The” reason for growth? Definitely not, nor did I ever (or would ever) say that. A catalyst that plays a role? I think it would be hard to argue otherwise.

Or it could be a complete coincidence. There could be innumerable other factors which are far more important to the growth of Jax than having an NFL team. Simply noting that Jax has a team and has been growing at a faster rate than two other somewhat similarly-sized MSAs that don't have teams is just that. It's simply a correlation - and you know what they say about that.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on June 13, 2018, 05:05:00 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we’re talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ’s contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.


You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.

No, the math is wrong. If the Jaguars gave $90M and the COJ gave $45M, that's not 50/50. That's 67/33 (roughly).

(https://i.imgur.com/PpV0evc.png)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 05:17:21 PM
It isn't 50/50, but I'll admit it isn't 100/0 either.  We do seem to pick up a large portion of expenses the team specifically benefits from while they get to buy into projects that produce revenue outside of the Jags core business.  That isn't a good deal for the City.  The Jags have doubled in value since Khan bought them due in large part to the deals he has worked with the City, but will we see any of that money when the team is sold someday?  Nope - that is public debt for private wealth creation at its worst.

Well, if we’re talking about the latest round, the Jaguars spent over $90M, and the COJ’s contribution was capped at $45M. That seems quite a lot like 50/50 to me.


You may wish to revisit your math.

The math is correct. COJ gave the Jaguars $45M. The Jaguars then managed the project and were responsible for any cost overruns.

No, the math is wrong. If the Jaguars gave $90M and the COJ gave $45M, that's not 50/50. That's 67/33 (roughly).

(https://i.imgur.com/PpV0evc.png)

Very good.

I was actually strengthening his argument re: the contributions that Khan/the Jaguars made. But I'm also a pedantic prick and couldn't help myself...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 05:47:07 PM
Maybe I’m not explaining properly. The Jaguars contributed $45M of their own Money. The COJ contributed $45M of Government Money. The total project was $90M.

I wrote it the way I did (perhaps confusing) because technically the COJ didn't pay the contractor, they paid the Jaguars, who managed the project in exchange for being responsible for overruns.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on June 13, 2018, 05:56:20 PM
Maybe I’m not explaining properly. The Jaguars contributed $45M of their own Money. The COJ contributed $45M of Government Money. The total project was $90M.

I wrote it the way I did (perhaps confusing) because technically the COJ didn't pay the contractor, they paid the Jaguars, who managed the project in exchange for being responsible for overruns.

OIC.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 06:51:30 PM
I think this explains the money spent pretty well.

The Daily Place deal was a bad deal for the taxpayers.  The City should have paid for it 100% and kept ALL the profits then told Khan to pay for his own stadium improvements if he thought it would financially benefit HIS business.

How much money do you think COJ makes from a concert at say, the Arena? It isn't much once you take out SMG's fees. I can't fathom how spending an extra $45M would have resulted in a better deal for the city.

While I don't feel this way, I suppose you could have made that argument for the Club Renovations and other stadium work. I can't see how the same argument could be made for Daily's Place.

Further, remember that the Cub Renovations and stadium improvements also benefit things like the Florida Georgia game and events like the FSU kickoff game in 2019. Atlanta is gunning hard (and has been) for the Florida Georgia game. That's one we really don't want to lose.

There are a lot of shades of gray here.

Daily's Place is a huge net positive for the area and fills a gap that we've been trying to fill since the 1990's.

And though I wouldn't characterize it as a terrible deal for the city, I can at least understand Kerry's point of view.

Total breakdown for the $90 million project, which the city split equally with Khan, was:

$20 million - Jaguars Practice Field
$25 million - Assure Club Renovations
$45 million - Daily's Place

The widely accepted narrative is that Khan went in half with the city on a $45 million ampitheater.

The flip-side of the narrative, which people don't talk about as much, is that this must also mean that the city paid half for a $20 million practice field for a $2.1 billion private business, and half for $25 million club seat upgrades which the Jags obviously benefit from much more than the city does.

I think a more accurate way to look at the project is:

- The Jags funded a $20 million practice facility.
- The Jags and city split the $25 million club seat upgrades 50/50
- The city spent $32.5 million on Daily's Place, with the Jags kicking in $12.5 million

As the city owns all three properties, we are responsible for maintenance, upkeep, and utilities for all three venues, including the Jaguars' practice facility.

Somehow though, the Jaguars get to keep 100% of naming rights revenue from the club section (USS Assure), the practice field (Dream Finders) and the amphitheater (Daily's), in addition to using a city-owned, city-funded practice field rent-free, and getting a cut of all of the profits at Daily's Place through Bold Events.

Whatever, it came from bed taxes, not the general fund, which have to be used for this type of project anyway.

I ain't mad, the arrangement seems fine with all parties.

We got a much needed asset in Daily's Place, and built some goodwill with Khan and the Jags, which is the price to pay to be in the NFL game in 2018.

But I do think it's a mischaracterization to label Daily's Place as some kind of altruistic 50/50 gift from the Jags to the city without in turn mentioning the practice field and club upgrades as 50/50 gifts from the city to a private corporation.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 07:21:05 PM
I mean okay-under that logic, you could say the COJ paid entirely for Daily’s Place and the Jaguars paid for the club renovations and the Practice Field
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 13, 2018, 07:27:58 PM
Also, while you can argue that the City and Jaguars should split the Daily’s Place naming rights (heck, make the argument that the city should keep it), but TIAA, US Assure, and Dream Finders wouldn’t pay any more than 10% of what they paid if not for the team.

TIAA Bank gets on TV nationally 9 times a year because of the Jaguars. No Jaguars, no home games, TIAA doesn’t sponsor. Dream Finders is the same way. Without an NFL team, there is no practice field, and no practices to be covered by the media from the Dream Finders Home Practice Facility.

Put another way: people aren’t lining up to by naming rights for the Baseball Grounds of Jacksonville.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 08:22:00 PM
That is because Jax has a pretty weak corporate base.  Lots of cities have arenas with corporate sponsorship and no pro team.  Before the Thunder moved to Oklahoma City the arena there was sponsored by Ford.  There was no primary tenant of any kind.  10% of something is better than 0% of anything.

(https://arenadigest.com/images/stories/nhl/okcfordctrimg_2905w.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 13, 2018, 08:26:14 PM
Even Wichita has an arena sponsor.

(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/D70F5R/usa-kansas-wichita-aerial-of-intrust-bank-arena-D70F5R.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: BridgeTroll on June 14, 2018, 07:22:58 AM
Are there any other businesses in Jax that have the payroll the Jags pay their staff, coaches, and players?  Probably 60+ 7 figure+ salaries...  another 30 or so 6 figure and a multitude of very good paying jobs... all living and spending in Duval... at least part time.

https://overthecap.com/contracts/jacksonville-jaguars/
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 14, 2018, 09:15:04 AM
Are there any other businesses in Jax that have the payroll the Jags pay their staff, coaches, and players?  Probably 60+ 7 figure+ salaries...  another 30 or so 6 figure and a multitude of very good paying jobs... all living and spending in Duval... at least part time.

https://overthecap.com/contracts/jacksonville-jaguars/

Very few if any. Well Put.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 14, 2018, 09:27:14 AM
That is because Jax has a pretty weak corporate base.  Lots of cities have arenas with corporate sponsorship and no pro team.  Before the Thunder moved to Oklahoma City the arena there was sponsored by Ford.  There was no primary tenant of any kind.  10% of something is better than 0% of anything.

(https://arenadigest.com/images/stories/nhl/okcfordctrimg_2905w.jpg)

On this we agree and you proved my point:

Regarding naming rights of minor league arenas:

The Wichita Arena's naming rights sold for $350,000/year
The OKC Arena's naming rights sold for $540,000/year (as you said, this was before The Thunder came to call it home.
Chesapeake Energy has naming rights now in OKC, sold for $3M/year with a 3% increase each year.
EverBank paid $4.3M for the naming rights.

I believe I said that the naming rights would maybe go for 10% of what they are now, which is about right (give or take). That's why I'm fine with the naming rights money going to the Jaguars. They are the reason they deal is what it is. Would it be nice to get 10% of it? Sure, I'll take money. I would also agree that the COJ should likely get something for Daily's Place. While the Jags developed it, I can't fathom the naming rights value is materially different because of the Jaguars.

But, I'd also say if we were that concerned, then we probably shouldn't have legislated that the Arena naming rights never be sold, either.

With regard to a weak corporate base, while I wouldn't use the term "weak", I do fundamentally agree with you. We don't have the corporate base that even some other mid-sized cities have. While I love that our largest employer is the US Navy, I don't see Uncle Sam sponsoring a naming rights deal or other typical corporate charitable donations.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on June 14, 2018, 09:34:18 AM
^ To clarify on the Ford Center, the naming rights purchase came not from Ford Motor Co. but from some Oklahoma alliance of Ford dealerships - essentially the equivalent of the "Southern Ford Dealers" group in southeast GA and northeast FL.  That and the lack of a pro team is why it wasn't a particularly big-dollar naming rights deal, as Steve noted.  The minor league hockey team, the Blazers, was the primary tenant there at the time, and they were in that era a big draw by minor league standards.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on June 14, 2018, 09:41:48 AM

With regard to a weak corporate base, while I wouldn't use the term "weak", I do fundamentally agree with you. We don't have the corporate base that even some other mid-sized cities have. While I love that our largest employer is the US Navy, I don't see Uncle Sam sponsoring a naming rights deal or other typical corporate charitable donations.

On a similar note, I remember talking in 2010 or so to a friend who worked in corporate sales for the Jaguars, and he observed that CSX had always been very supportive of the team, but it made no shareholder sense for them to put CSX Field on the name of the stadium - "no one's going to see that on TV and say 'I think that's the train I'll ship my products on next time.'"
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 14, 2018, 09:50:41 AM

With regard to a weak corporate base, while I wouldn't use the term "weak", I do fundamentally agree with you. We don't have the corporate base that even some other mid-sized cities have. While I love that our largest employer is the US Navy, I don't see Uncle Sam sponsoring a naming rights deal or other typical corporate charitable donations.

On a similar note, I remember talking in 2010 or so to a friend who worked in corporate sales for the Jaguars, and he observed that CSX had always been very supportive of the team, but it made no shareholder sense for them to put CSX Field on the name of the stadium - "no one's going to see that on TV and say 'I think that's the train I'll ship my products on next time.'"

Amen:

If you look at the companies based here, it's an odd mix that tends to cater a little to B2B:

CSX
Fidelity National Financial
Black Knight
Landstar
Rayonier

Obviously Southeastern Grocers and Stein Mart are here, but the former isn't really in a position to write that sort of check, and Stein Mart, while not doing terrible, isn't the sort of company that writes naming rights checks.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on June 14, 2018, 10:31:45 AM
^ It's a much different mix than Jacksonville had when it was contending for a team in the late 70s-early 90s and had Barnett, First Union of Florida/its predecessors, Independent Life, Charter, et al. as corporate power players.

(A similar story to why downtown has unoccupied office space and no new office skyscrapers for 25 years.)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 15, 2018, 11:11:33 AM

With regard to a weak corporate base, while I wouldn't use the term "weak", I do fundamentally agree with you. We don't have the corporate base that even some other mid-sized cities have. While I love that our largest employer is the US Navy, I don't see Uncle Sam sponsoring a naming rights deal or other typical corporate charitable donations.

On a similar note, I remember talking in 2010 or so to a friend who worked in corporate sales for the Jaguars, and he observed that CSX had always been very supportive of the team, but it made no shareholder sense for them to put CSX Field on the name of the stadium - "no one's going to see that on TV and say 'I think that's the train I'll ship my products on next time.'"

How many people are buying oil and gas by the super tanker load from Chesapeake Energy?  They sponsor the arena in OKC because they compete in the region for employee talent.

Also, when the Ford Center was renamed the City got to keep the amount of money in the naming rights deal with the Thunder that they were making from the non-team deal - so the City didn't lose any money and the team go their share of value they created.  THAT is how you do it.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 15, 2018, 02:45:32 PM

With regard to a weak corporate base, while I wouldn't use the term "weak", I do fundamentally agree with you. We don't have the corporate base that even some other mid-sized cities have. While I love that our largest employer is the US Navy, I don't see Uncle Sam sponsoring a naming rights deal or other typical corporate charitable donations.

On a similar note, I remember talking in 2010 or so to a friend who worked in corporate sales for the Jaguars, and he observed that CSX had always been very supportive of the team, but it made no shareholder sense for them to put CSX Field on the name of the stadium - "no one's going to see that on TV and say 'I think that's the train I'll ship my products on next time.'"

How many people are buying oil and gas by the super tanker load from Chesapeake Energy?  They sponsor the arena in OKC because they compete in the region for employee talent.

Also, when the Ford Center was renamed the City got to keep the amount of money in the naming rights deal with the Thunder that they were making from the non-team deal - so the City didn't lose any money and the team go their share of value they created.  THAT is how you do it.

With regard to your first point: Between the four major sports, there are 109 Arena/Stadiums. Of those, 92 of them have a corporate name. Of those, there are literally TWO that don't sell to consumers in at least one channel of their business. Chesapeake Energy and SAP (I have the list if you really want it).

With regard to your second point: The original intent WAS that the city and team would split the revenue. The Goal was that the Naming Rights deal would come in at about $5M/year. It came in at $3.5M/Year, which is what the Jags' portion of the deal would be. So yes, the City passed on $1.5M/year. Personally, I don't believe the COJ would change materially from $1.5M a year. Further, the Jags in 2010/2011 were not in great financial shape (by any measure), so if we could help out by tossing in $1.5M a year (Which would not be General Fund Money), let's do it.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on June 15, 2018, 05:04:46 PM
I always thought that Fanatics would have made sense as a naming rights partner.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Wacca Pilatka on June 15, 2018, 05:06:51 PM
I always thought that Fanatics would have made sense as a naming rights partner.

^ Seems logical, but I wonder if its position as an official team shop manager for the entire NFL and for other individual franchises precludes this.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 15, 2018, 05:40:51 PM
I always thought that Fanatics would have made sense as a naming rights partner.

^ Seems logical, but I wonder if its position as an official team shop manager for the entire NFL and for other individual franchises precludes this

Fanatics, while (now) big enough to do it, for most of it’s history wouldn’t write this sort of check.

Now, you might be right as the NFL has a small ownership stake in the company. They do however have merchandise deals with individual teams, separate from the NFLShop.com agreement.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: blizz01 on June 15, 2018, 07:14:58 PM
Wouldn't Jaguar be a no-brainer?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 16, 2018, 03:33:35 PM
Wouldn't Jaguar be a no-brainer?

Apparently not, since the naming rights on the place were not purchased for multiple years. Plus, then being a British company owned by an Indian company, they likely weren’t interested.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 18, 2018, 09:23:02 PM
Wouldn't Jaguar be a no-brainer?

Apparently not, since the naming rights on the place were not purchased for multiple years. Plus, then being a British company owned by an Indian company, they likely weren’t interested.

We've offered Jaguar the opportunity in the past to be softly associated with the team as the "official car of the Jaguars," including as a make-good after we straight-up stole their IP for the original Jaguars logo, but they've never been particularly interested. The presumption is they don't feel like Jacksonville is particularly on-brand with their image.

They were probably right in 1995, but the times they are a-changing.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/06/18/ultraluxury-car-brand-opens-dealership-in.html
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 18, 2018, 09:40:53 PM
P.S. Best phase-by-phase details of the Cordish development that we've seen so far, courtesy J Magazine.

Looks like the first phase, which Khan wants to have in full, concurrent construction by spring, does in fact include the parking garage (with, wait for it, an urban park on top).

Also interesting that the Cordish development that the Jags are drawing the strongest parallel to is the Power & Light District in KC, which has done genuinely amazing things for their downtown, but has been a bit of an albatross for the taxpayers.

Good article with some quotes from Lamping here: http://www.jacksonville.com/opinion/20180617/lotj-no-time-like-present-for-25-billion-development

(https://snag.gy/KvomBh.jpg)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on June 18, 2018, 11:10:20 PM
So if a new convention center is built, does the take the place of the city building one? If so what then happens to Prime Osborn? And if I am JTA shouldnt I be thinking we need to get the skyway headed in this direction?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: remc86007 on June 18, 2018, 11:18:54 PM
They've more or less been thinking that for 20yrs haha
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on June 18, 2018, 11:23:11 PM
^JTA wants driverless vehicles to replace the Skyway....
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 18, 2018, 11:45:19 PM
So if a new convention center is built, does the take the place of the city building one? If so what then happens to Prime Osborn? And if I am JTA shouldnt I be thinking we need to get the skyway headed in this direction?

On the northbank alone, we've currently got plans for two convention centers.

Two Landings.

Two signature riverfront parks.

Two parking garages - one presumably 70 stories tall for Convention Center A, with 1,300 spaces in a shared two-block radius with a quarter million square foot convention center; and another, for Convention Center B, built on top of a lake with a garden for the roof.

Four competing hotels, built over 1) land where it's not safe to breathe, 2) a condemned parking lot, 3) non-existent Convention Center A (shit, better make that garage 90 stories tall), and 4) the shell of an abandoned condo tower where somebody died.

All connected by a complex network of clown-cars and a partially demolished highway overpass carrying pedestrians around the prison.

Jacksonville ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 19, 2018, 08:51:54 AM
So if a new convention center is built, does the take the place of the city building one? If so what then happens to Prime Osborn? And if I am JTA shouldnt I be thinking we need to get the skyway headed in this direction?

On the northbank alone, we've currently got plans for two convention centers.

Two Landings.

Two signature riverfront parks.

Two parking garages - one presumably 70 stories tall for Convention Center A, with 1,300 spaces in a shared two-block radius with a quarter million square foot convention center; and another, for Convention Center B, built on top of a lake with a garden for the roof.

Four competing hotels, built over 1) land where it's not safe to breathe, 2) a condemned parking lot, 3) non-existent Convention Center A (shit, better make that garage 90 stories tall), and 4) the shell of an abandoned condo tower where somebody died.

All connected by a complex network of clown-cars and a partially demolished highway overpass carrying pedestrians around the prison.

Jacksonville ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That was an awesome summation.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2018, 09:18:35 AM
So if a new convention center is built, does the take the place of the city building one? If so what then happens to Prime Osborn? And if I am JTA shouldnt I be thinking we need to get the skyway headed in this direction?

On the northbank alone, we've currently got plans for two convention centers.

Two Landings.

Two signature riverfront parks.

Two parking garages - one presumably 70 stories tall for Convention Center A, with 1,300 spaces in a shared two-block radius with a quarter million square foot convention center; and another, for Convention Center B, built on top of a lake with a garden for the roof.

Four competing hotels, built over 1) land where it's not safe to breathe, 2) a condemned parking lot, 3) non-existent Convention Center A (shit, better make that garage 90 stories tall), and 4) the shell of an abandoned condo tower where somebody died.

All connected by a complex network of clown-cars and a partially demolished highway overpass carrying pedestrians around the prison.

Jacksonville ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Well said - there really doesn't seem to be a strategy here, does there?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on June 19, 2018, 09:40:50 AM
I had no idea John Peyton was head of the Chamber.

 “I think that what we’ve needed in Jacksonville is a signature project that shows momentum, where somebody really puts their flag in the ground and says, ‘We’re making an investment, and we’re gonna take risks, because we believe there’s great potential.’ I think Shad Khan is the guy who’s willing to be bullish on Downtown and take steps that, quite frankly, we haven’t seen before at this magnitude.”

I see we are still counting on the silver bullet 'game changer' project to turn things around.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2018, 09:46:04 AM
I had no idea John Peyton was head of the Chamber.

 “I think that what we’ve needed in Jacksonville is a signature project that shows momentum, where somebody really puts their flag in the ground and says, ‘We’re making an investment, and we’re gonna take risks, because we believe there’s great potential.’ I think Shad Khan is the guy who’s willing to be bullish on Downtown and take steps that, quite frankly, we haven’t seen before at this magnitude.”

I see we are still counting on the silver bullet 'game changer' project to turn things around.

Meanwhile the private small to medium sized projects are the ones having the real impacts.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: remc86007 on June 19, 2018, 10:12:33 AM
Yep. Downtown is definitely improving. Clearly too much attention and time is being spent on trying to get a "silver bullet" project going. I think we already have one: The Barnett building and the Laura street trio. I think they will be enough to spur significant organic growth. If I were the mayor, I would focus on getting as many of the vacant buildings in the core renovated and occupied as possible. What Vestcor is doing is what ultimately will lead to growth: getting people to live downtown.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Captain Zissou on June 19, 2018, 10:34:19 AM

Jacksonville ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

The city of Jax has gone full "idiot".  Maybe we should start calling this place Special Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on June 19, 2018, 10:45:39 AM
Yep. Downtown is definitely improving. Clearly too much attention and time is being spent on trying to get a "silver bullet" project going. I think we already have one: The Barnett building and the Laura street trio. I think they will be enough to spur significant organic growth. If I were the mayor, I would focus on getting as many of the vacant buildings in the core renovated and occupied as possible. What Vestcor is doing is what ultimately will lead to growth: getting people to live downtown.


Indeed. If Matt Carlucci had been elected instead of 'Big Ideas' John Peyton, JAX might be a lot further along toward DT vitality. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: civil42806 on June 19, 2018, 11:18:58 AM
Yep. Downtown is definitely improving. Clearly too much attention and time is being spent on trying to get a "silver bullet" project going. I think we already have one: The Barnett building and the Laura street trio. I think they will be enough to spur significant organic growth. If I were the mayor, I would focus on getting as many of the vacant buildings in the core renovated and occupied as possible. What Vestcor is doing is what ultimately will lead to growth: getting people to live downtown.


Indeed. If Matt Carlucci had been elected instead of 'Big Ideas' John Peyton, JAX might be a lot further along toward DT vitality. 

Hey I voted for Carlucci!!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 19, 2018, 11:22:40 AM
“I think that what we’ve needed in Jacksonville is a signature project that shows momentum, where somebody really puts their flag in the ground and says, ‘We’re making an investment, and we’re gonna take risks, because we believe there’s great potential.’ I think Shad Khan is the guy who’s willing to be bullish on Downtown and take steps that, quite frankly, we haven’t seen before at this magnitude.”

I see we are still counting on the silver bullet 'game changer' project to turn things around.

In addition to the "game changer" silliness, the pure semantics of what we consider to be "downtown" baffles me.

You almost want to show these people a map.

Lot J is 17 blocks, and 1.3 miles from the CBD, and we constantly hear it discussed as a downtown game changer.

Meanwhile, four blocks to the west of the Landing, and barely a third of a mile walk along the riverwalk, is Brooklyn and the Times-Union property.

Do we ever talk about the Times-Union property or Vista Brooklyn as a potential downtown game changer?

Hell, keep walking, and Memorial Park is practically the same distance from the CBD as Lot J, but we certainly don't consider Memorial Park to be a downtown game-changer.

Even if Lot J is a huge success, let's call it what it is - creating a new neighborhood - rather than what it's not, downtown revitalization.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Captain Zissou on June 19, 2018, 11:31:22 AM
^ I borrowed your quote and it has started some FB discussion. 
Doing some VERY rough google measuring, if you take out Market Street and make a giant old courthouse super block, you get ~204k square feet if the building fronts all sidewalks (not possible).  So you get 4-5 floors of parking with ground floor retail, space for some of the biggest freight elevators none to man, utilities, and other things thrown in, then you put 2-3 floors of exhibition space on top of that, then a hotel on top of half for another 5 floors.  You end up with a hideous monstrosity of a building that Berkman, Hyatt, and the city itself would be up in arms over.  I think they Hyatt courthouse dream died with the loss of the parking lot space.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on June 19, 2018, 11:46:49 AM
It works fine when combined with the Hyatt and it's meeting facilities. I seriously doubt it would need more than two floors. Everything flies out the window when trying to squeeze in what the DIA wanted in that RFP. Even if it could fit, I doubt Jax could support or afford it.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 19, 2018, 01:03:18 PM
What stops Khan from just buying some land and building his ideas if he wants to be a real-estate developer?  Maybe he should start out with a small in-fill project to see if he is good at it.  I mean, he could actually suck at building good urbanism.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2018, 01:24:16 PM
What stops Khan from just buying some land and building his ideas if he wants to be a real-estate developer?  Maybe he should start out with a small in-fill project to see if he is good at it.  I mean, he could actually suck at building good urbanism.

There’s not really any land adjacent to the stadium that’s privately owned.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: jaxnyc79 on June 19, 2018, 01:30:23 PM
OK, I understand "Metrojacksonville" is full of emotional volatility and recency bias, but while I have my concerns with Curry's Administration, the very much revered Barnett and Trio were incentivized under his watch and are actually in motion during his administration.  So all is not lost.    Jax is on a very bumpy ride to renewal, but that's probably not unique to Jax.  Finally, does anyone know the inside scoop on the hand-off of the Barnett Building from Shad-owned Iguana to its current ownership?  Is there a compelling story of reconciliation and mediation here?     
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on June 19, 2018, 01:59:05 PM
What stops Khan from just buying some land and building his ideas if he wants to be a real-estate developer?  Maybe he should start out with a small in-fill project to see if he is good at it.  I mean, he could actually suck at building good urbanism.

There’s not really any land adjacent to the stadium that’s privately owned.

So?  Is he wanting to be a real-estate developer or not?  He could buy a lot near FSCJ and see if he can be successful with some student housing.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on June 19, 2018, 02:24:21 PM
OK, I understand "Metrojacksonville" is full of emotional volatility and recency bias, but while I have my concerns with Curry's Administration, the very much revered Barnett and Trio were incentivized under his watch and are actually in motion during his administration.  So all is not lost.    Jax is on a very bumpy ride to renewal, but that's probably not unique to Jax.  Finally, does anyone know the inside scoop on the hand-off of the Barnett Building from Shad-owned Iguana to its current ownership?  Is there a compelling story of reconciliation and mediation here?     

Khan, through Stache Investments, loaned Adkins $3 million to purchase the Barnett in 2013. Barnett failed to make payments on the loan, the property went into foreclosure, and Khan bid around $50k to retain it in 2016. Khan didn't necessarily want to develop it himself, but he wanted to make sure that the property was put in good hands. The trust was broken with Adkins, but when Molasky group came back to the table with Adkins and laid out their plans for the Trio, Khan agreed to sell it to Molasky, for around $4 million and change, I believe.

For the Trio deal, I personally give most of the credit to Adkins and Aundra Wallace, but I agree, Curry has overseen a lot of positive development downtown, has made some bold moves, and has successfully lobbied for a lot of state money for the Hart Bridge ramp removals. He's deepened the city's relationship with Shad Khan and the Jaguars (which I fully support), and even if I don't support every decision, he makes things happen. I'll take Curry 20 times out of 10 over Peyton. That number jumps to 25 if he buries the hatchet with Sleiman and works towards a common solution for the Landing.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on June 19, 2018, 02:58:44 PM
What stops Khan from just buying some land and building his ideas if he wants to be a real-estate developer?  Maybe he should start out with a small in-fill project to see if he is good at it.  I mean, he could actually suck at building good urbanism.

There’s not really any land adjacent to the stadium that’s privately owned.

So?  Is he wanting to be a real-estate developer or not?  He could buy a lot near FSCJ and see if he can be successful with some student housing.

That's not what he wants to do. A developer isn't "required" to develop land that's beneficial for someone else, and I don't get the vibe that Shad Khan wants to be a major player in real estate. Make no mistake - he wants to develop around the stadium to help the Jaguars. He hasn't been shy about it, and I don't personally care if that's his motive....as long as it's a good deal for the citizens.

Most cities are realizing that building their stadiums in a sea of parking isn't ideal.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on August 14, 2018, 12:41:30 PM
Mark Lamping gave a talk this morning.

Here's what the Jags are going to be aggressively pushing for this fall:

1) An economic development agreement with the city in place for Lot J by the end of the year
2) Simultaneous construction underway for five buildings on Lot J by May (entertainment complex, office tower, residential building, hotel, and parking garage).
3) Lot J construction complete two years from now, in time for the start of the 2020 football season

Will be interesting to see the proposed agreement. My guess is the first phase will be $300-$500 million, with the city being asked to provide the property and 30% of the financing through bonds paid back via TIF but guaranteed through the general fund, and Iguana and Cordish covering the rest.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on August 14, 2018, 12:55:33 PM
Mark Lamping gave a talk this morning.

Here's what the Jags are going to be aggressively pushing for this fall:

1) An economic development agreement with the city in place for Lot J by the end of the year
2) Simultaneous construction underway for five buildings on Lot J by May (entertainment complex, office tower, residential building, hotel, and parking garage).
3) Lot J construction complete two years from now, in time for the start of the 2020 football season

Will be interesting to see the proposed agreement. My guess is the first phase will be $300-$500 million, with the city being asked to provide the property and 30% of the financing through bonds paid back via TIF but guaranteed through the general fund, and Iguana and Cordish covering the rest.

I take it the hotel is NOT the Four Seasons one that would be on the river, but a second one?

For them to be building an office tower they must have a primary tenant lined up. Either JEA or an totally anonymous one. 

Would the city pay for 30% of ALL of the five buildings,(the total cost of the entire Lot J phase)?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on August 14, 2018, 01:31:04 PM
Four Seasons would be down the road, this is a separate hotel component on Lot J. Similar to the last round of stadium upgrades, I'm sure Phase 1 will be considered one overall project for purposes of a development agreement.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on August 14, 2018, 03:53:24 PM
If I were to bet, I'd wager that JEA will be part of the deal.  Will the City be able to claim moving JEA there as part of the City's "contribution"?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on August 14, 2018, 05:17:20 PM
If I were to bet, I'd wager that JEA will be part of the deal.  Will the City be able to claim moving JEA there as part of the City's "contribution"?

I could be wrong, but I don't think the city has any say in where JEA relocates.

To the best of my knowledge, it's strictly up to JEA's board of directors.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on August 14, 2018, 05:33:04 PM
If I were to bet, I'd wager that JEA will be part of the deal.  Will the City be able to claim moving JEA there as part of the City's "contribution"?

I could be wrong, but I don't think the city has any say in where JEA relocates.

To the best of my knowledge, it's strictly up to JEA's board of directors.

The directors are appointed by either the Mayor or the Mayor and the Governor. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on August 14, 2018, 09:52:23 PM
If I were to bet, I'd wager that JEA will be part of the deal.  Will the City be able to claim moving JEA there as part of the City's "contribution"?

I could be wrong, but I don't think the city has any say in where JEA relocates.

To the best of my knowledge, it's strictly up to JEA's board of directors.

The directors are appointed by either the Mayor or the Mayor and the Governor. 

By the Mayor, from the JEA website: "Our governing body is made up of a seven-member volunteer Board of Directors appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council."

I understand that the JEA Board will make the decisions on a new HQ location, but they are part of the City, and could factor into a package deal.  Perhaps, a JEA move to Lot J reduces the required cash from the City to the Jags / Iguana by some amount.  The perceived value of having several hundred daily "butts in seats" to feed any restaurants that are built there.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on August 14, 2018, 11:18:34 PM
Mark Lamping gave a talk this morning.

Here's what the Jags are going to be aggressively pushing for this fall:

1) An economic development agreement with the city in place for Lot J by the end of the year
2) Simultaneous construction underway for five buildings on Lot J by May (entertainment complex, office tower, residential building, hotel, and parking garage).
3) Lot J construction complete two years from now, in time for the start of the 2020 football season

Will be interesting to see the proposed agreement. My guess is the first phase will be $300-$500 million, with the city being asked to provide the property and 30% of the financing through bonds paid back via TIF but guaranteed through the general fund, and Iguana and Cordish covering the rest.

Based off this timeline, hosting an NFL Draft within the next 5 years seems plausible.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Captain Zissou on August 15, 2018, 09:19:54 AM
If I were to bet, I'd wager that JEA will be part of the deal.  Will the City be able to claim moving JEA there as part of the City's "contribution"?

I could be wrong, but I don't think the city has any say in where JEA relocates.

To the best of my knowledge, it's strictly up to JEA's board of directors.

One of the board members is the CFO of the Jags....
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on August 15, 2018, 12:19:21 PM
If I were to bet, I'd wager that JEA will be part of the deal.  Will the City be able to claim moving JEA there as part of the City's "contribution"?

I could be wrong, but I don't think the city has any say in where JEA relocates.

To the best of my knowledge, it's strictly up to JEA's board of directors.

The directors are appointed by either the Mayor or the Mayor and the Governor. 

By the Mayor, from the JEA website: "Our governing body is made up of a seven-member volunteer Board of Directors appointed by the Mayor and confirmed by the City Council."

I understand that the JEA Board will make the decisions on a new HQ location, but they are part of the City, and could factor into a package deal.  Perhaps, a JEA move to Lot J reduces the required cash from the City to the Jags / Iguana by some amount.  The perceived value of having several hundred daily "butts in seats" to feed any restaurants that are built there.

Don't get me wrong, politics will certainly (and are already) play their part. To CZ's point above, even though Kelly Flanagan is technically "recusing" herself from the discussions, that doesn't recuse her influence and the strong self-interest she has toward Lot J.

My point was, the city alone doesn't have the power to move JEA to Lot J.

The strongest way the city could exercise their influence though would be when JEA RFPs their new headquarters. If Iguana/Cordish come back with a proposal that's exceptionally favorable to JEA, with the understanding that the city will help subsidize the office element through their economic development agreement with Iguana, then the city really would be actively bankrolling JEA's departure from downtown.

I'm not sure we'd offer similar subsidies directly with the much-better Atkins plan.

Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on August 17, 2018, 02:13:33 PM
Not worth it's own thread, but just heard that the giant new LED billboard beside Daily's Place should be started and up within the next 2-3 weeks.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on September 03, 2018, 06:28:39 PM
50,000 at the Lynyrd Skynyrd show last night.

Despite the rain, place was packed out.

Great joint effort by the Jags and the city.

Lots of great pics and video floating around on social media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1foKYa9xTE
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: BridgeTroll on September 04, 2018, 08:16:22 AM
50,000 at the Lynyrd Skynyrd show last night.

Despite the rain, place was packed out.

Great joint effort by the Jags and the city.

Lots of great pics and video floating around on social media.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1foKYa9xTE

Long day... Great show... Kid Rock and Jason Aldean were impressive... along with Skynrd...  8)  Jags and the city should do more of these...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on September 13, 2018, 09:03:40 AM
My wife, some friends, and I attended the Judas Priest / Deep Purple concert at Daily's Place last night.  My ears should stop ringing sometime next week - it was loud.  I've never been in Lot J during a concert, but how much sound escapes the venue?  If there is any significant noise getting to Lot J, putting residential there could have an effect on future concerts.  Specifically, early curfews, like at St. Augustine Amphitheater.  Has anyone been in Lot J during a concert?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on September 13, 2018, 09:17:39 AM
I also was at that show.  I enjoyed deep purple way more than I thought I would. 

You can hear concerts perfectly well in Lot J.  Its loud.  BUT, inside a modern well insulated building it shouldn't be too bad.  Inside a wood frame house, it would be terrible.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: fieldafm on September 13, 2018, 09:18:18 AM
My wife, some friends, and I attended the Judas Priest / Deep Purple concert at Daily's Place last night.  My ears should stop ringing sometime next week - it was loud.  I've never been in Lot J during a concert, but how much sound escapes the venue?  If there is any significant noise getting to Lot J, putting residential there could have an effect on future concerts.  Specifically, early curfews, like at St. Augustine Amphitheater.  Has anyone been in Lot J during a concert?

I've listened to an entire concert while tailgating at Lot J. The music is loud and clear as day. In fact, depending on where your seats are inside Dailys Place... the sound in the parking lot is sometimes better.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: vicupstate on September 13, 2018, 09:45:10 AM
I also was at that show.  I enjoyed deep purple way more than I thought I would. 

You can hear concerts perfectly well in Lot J.  Its loud.  BUT, inside a modern well insulated building it shouldn't be too bad.  Inside a wood frame house, it would be terrible.

Most apartment complexes I see built these days are absolutely wood frame.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Lostwave on September 14, 2018, 09:14:47 AM
I also was at that show.  I enjoyed deep purple way more than I thought I would. 

You can hear concerts perfectly well in Lot J.  Its loud.  BUT, inside a modern well insulated building it shouldn't be too bad.  Inside a wood frame house, it would be terrible.

Most apartment complexes I see built these days are absolutely wood frame.

Right, but the lot J proposal is all highrise.  Def not going to be sticks.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on September 14, 2018, 12:41:49 PM
Except those renderings are conceptual. Those highrises aren't real projects. Just drawings to impress people, that happen to change every year.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on September 14, 2018, 05:21:36 PM
To impress people? I would think the renderings are just to give people an idea what the project would like like. It’s those with their personal agendas that try and change that!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on September 14, 2018, 08:18:58 PM
The market determines what things will ultimately be. Slick renderings before digging into the details are great for gaining political and public support. However, they can lead to big disappointment when what's built does not compare to what is prematurely sold.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 14, 2018, 11:21:20 PM
The market determines what things will ultimately be. Slick renderings before digging into the details are great for gaining political and public support. However, they can lead to big disappointment when what's built does not compare to what is prematurely sold.

cough coughDaily's Placecough cough
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on September 15, 2018, 07:54:45 AM
Although a difficult comparison since it includes no retail or residential space, Daily's Place also ended up looking completely different than the original renderings. It was certainly value engineered. If Lot J and the other stuff materialize, they will be as well. This no knock on Iguana, it's just the typical process.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on September 15, 2018, 10:56:35 AM
The market determines what things will ultimately be. Slick renderings before digging into the details are great for gaining political and public support. However, they can lead to big disappointment when what's built does not compare to what is prematurely sold.

Here's what the City Council was shown when they approved $90 million for an amphitheater and practice facility.

(https://media.news4jax.com/photo/2015/11/25/Concerns-over-stadium-upgrade-proposal_648756_ver1.0_640_360.jpg)

Here's what they got:

(https://www.riversideavondalerealestate.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Dailys-Place.jpg)

If you want to know what a Lot J development would actually end up looking like, a good place to start would be looking at some of Cordish's other developments in places like Texas, St. Louis, Kansas City, etc. The newer Cordish developments in particular have a bit of a distinct look.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on September 15, 2018, 12:10:33 PM
Not many Cordish developments look like the Shipyards renderings with towers all over the place. None that I can think of in a metro of Jax's size.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: marcuscnelson on September 15, 2018, 02:59:46 PM
There's also the example of how the Jacksonville Regional Transportation Center went from this:

(http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wjct/files/styles/x_large/public/201706/jaxis_plaza.jpg)

To this:

(https://media.bizj.us/view/img/10507862/jrtc-plaza-rendering-east-side*1200xx1659-933-131-0.jpg)

To this:

(https://www.pondco.com/project/jacksonville-regional-transportation-center/jrtc-jta-admin-building-02/)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: MusicMan on September 16, 2018, 12:30:28 PM
Should the Jags make a play for LeVeon Bell? Just as in his college career,  Fournette is always injured.

Bell on the other hand is reliable and undeniably the best RB in the NFL.

Just putting that out there. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: remc86007 on September 16, 2018, 08:56:44 PM
Our backup RBs didn't suck today.

One of the most fun I've had at Jags game!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: MusicMan on September 17, 2018, 08:30:25 AM
The O line is dramatically improved. There has never really been anything wrong with the back up RB's.  Our O line sucked up until last year.

Seriously, we whooped the Patriots with Fournette on the bench......
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on October 04, 2018, 12:33:57 PM
Not sure what the implications are, but apparently the city is rezoning the entire Shipyards/Met Park/Lot J area as "central business district."
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: jaxnyc79 on October 04, 2018, 01:28:38 PM
Not sure what the implications are, but apparently the city is rezoning the entire Shipyards/Met Park/Lot J area as "central business district."

Can we now boast the largest central business district in Florida (in land area)?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on October 04, 2018, 01:47:22 PM
Not sure what the implications are, but apparently the city is rezoning the entire Shipyards/Met Park/Lot J area as "central business district."

I don't understand that. The entire stadium district is already part of the central business district.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: thelakelander on October 04, 2018, 01:56:26 PM
That area also recently become an Opportunity Zone, so now there's an avenue for the private sector to invest capital gains money and eventually cash out without being taxed on it.


Quote
Opportunity zones: vital community development tool or tax windfall for the rich?
A little-noticed provision in Trump’s tax law could prove to be its most consequential
Full article: https://www.curbed.com/2018/10/3/17898370/opportunity-zones-tax-bill-community-development-capital-gains
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on October 04, 2018, 02:25:41 PM
Not sure what the implications are, but apparently the city is rezoning the entire Shipyards/Met Park/Lot J area as "central business district."

I don't understand that. The entire stadium district is already part of the central business district.

Not technically, in terms of zoning.

Per the city's GIS site, it looks like the area is mostly PUD (Planned Unit Development), PBF (Public Buildings and Facilities), and ROS (Recreation/Open Space).

(https://snag.gy/Rl0QGv.jpg)

Again, not technically sure what the implications are, but I heard that the city wants to rezone 100 acres in that vicinity.

Edit - Doing some quick Googling on zoning definitions, it sounds like PUD would be more restrictive than CBD in terms of density and uses. Somebody might be able to correct me, but I think PUD is primarily residential with density caps and limited mixed use primarily intended to complement the residential, while CBD eases those restrictions and allows full mixed use.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on October 04, 2018, 03:27:20 PM
PUD is essentially a "one-off", which is a negotiation. PUDs really aren't ideal, and should be the exception in a city with a solid zoning coe.

I remember that some of the buildings like 11E and the Carling had to be PUDs because our zoning code at the time couldn't handle Mixed Use (maybe it does now)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: heights unknown on October 04, 2018, 04:14:43 PM
Isn't Miami's CBD extremely large as well? I used to live down there and Miami's downtown covers the old urban core, Brickell, the northside of downtown (don't know the name), and some of those islands I think in Biscayne Bay. I would bet that Jax's CBD is the largest I would believe. I believe something is up and going on with shipyards, met park and lot "J." Something real big for them to rezone those areas.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on October 18, 2018, 08:26:27 PM
With Wembley falling through, the Jags seem to be angling Lot J as an urgent necessity.

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/10/18/jaguars-lot-j-could-show-progress-in-late-2018.html
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on October 18, 2018, 08:42:49 PM
Actually, here's the full clip of Mark Lamping's press conference yesterday, courtesy Dave Cawton at the Daily Record.

Really interesting, informal conversation where Lamping talks about Wembley, Lot J, whether the Jags want a new stadium, etc.

https://twitter.com/Davidcawton/status/1052959382206595072?s=20
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Charles Hunter on October 18, 2018, 08:51:49 PM
So,  can we ink in JEA to Lot J as a "sure thing" now?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on October 18, 2018, 09:08:32 PM
^Like I mentioned in the other thread, if I was betting my life savings, I'd put every penny on Lot J.

Pre-Lot J plan from the Jaguars, JEA had every intention to build a new headquarters themselves in the CBD via land swap with the city.

Post Lot J announcement, that plan went out the window.

JEA's new timeline for selecting a headquarters site perfectly coincides with the Jaguars timeline for finalizing their economic development agreement with the city, and the new RFP that JEA put out completely abandons the long-held plan to build and own the headquarters themselves, instead requesting a long-term lease with options for up to 30 years.

Throw in the fact that the Jags CFO sits on the board at JEA, and I think it's pretty clear which way the wind is blowing here.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on October 18, 2018, 09:45:41 PM
Well clearly having the Wimbly deal fall through is a huge setback for the Jags and Jax.  We were told multiple times that the Wimbly deal was the only thing keeping the Jags in Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2018, 10:39:48 AM
We were told multiple times that the Wimbly deal was the only thing keeping the Jags in Jax.

We were? Can you provide a single quote of this?

Now, what I heard (and was published by Khan two days ago) was that London was critically important to the Jaguars financial success in Jacksonville (and the Jaguars evidence to this fact is fairly strong). London isn't the same thing as buying Wembley.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 19, 2018, 11:58:48 AM
We were told multiple times that the Wimbly deal was the only thing keeping the Jags in Jax.

We were? Can you provide a single quote of this?

Now, what I heard (and was published by Khan two days ago) was that London was critically important to the Jaguars financial success in Jacksonville (and the Jaguars evidence to this fact is fairly strong). London isn't the same thing as buying Wembley.

I think a lot people aren't quite getting that part of it.  We're still committed to playing at least one home game in London until 2020.  I posted this in a Jag group earlier and here's where I'm at with it:
Quote
Even though Khan bailed on Wembley, I don't see this dying down anytime soon. Sorry about the long-ish read, but I'd like to throw my opinion out there to give you guys/gals something to think about.

The media is grasping for low-hanging fruit as always and to write a story that ties the Jags moving to London doesn't take any brain power at all. It's something most 11th graders can do.

Here, let me shed some light for you:

There are 2 stadiums in England right now.
There is a lot of interest in Germany - right now.
The only way to truly make it work overseas is to have multiple teams at home.
The NFL and the NFLPA don't go to the table until 2020.
The NFL wants to expand - not relocate.

If anyone wants a team in London, they would make exponentially more money by creating a startup rather than relocating. Assume an initial $1B to startup, and once they become part of the league in London - team value automatically jumps to ~$5B-7B.

What Khan is trying to do is get ahead of the curve and own one of the two stadiums. I truly think his ultimate goal would be just what you've read - base the Jags out of Jax and have a 2-game homestand in London.

That accomplishes 2 things: 1. If the numbers stay the same, he makes upwards of 30-35% of the yearly revenue on just 2 games. 2. By having fewer games here, the demand 'should' go up, therefore increasing the revenue made at home also.

And this is based on a 16 games season. I believe if we were to have another expansion of teams, then 18 games is absolutely on the table. And more games in 'his' stadium means more money for 'our' team.

If he can't keep the Jags there as the psuedo "Home" team, then he will lease it out to whomever plays there. Just like Kronke. Just like Mara.

IMO, best case, things stay the same, we have our home game overseas and play an 'away' there, too in Tottenham in back to back weeks. Worst case is that the team splits 5-5 and has a US schedule coupled with a Euro schedule. Either way, for no other reason than taxes (we're talking hundreds of millions per year between ownership and players and staff, etc...), Khan will keep the Jags in Jax for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on October 19, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
We were told multiple times that the Wimbly deal was the only thing keeping the Jags in Jax.

We were? Can you provide a single quote of this?

Now, what I heard (and was published by Khan two days ago) was that London was critically important to the Jaguars financial success in Jacksonville (and the Jaguars evidence to this fact is fairly strong). London isn't the same thing as buying Wembley.

You are correct that literally no one was saying that Wembley was the only thing keeping the Jags here. However the idea that the Jags would not be "financially successful" if not for London is crap. All NFL teams print their own money at this point, and the city has always been willing to work with the team on the improvements they want.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: dp8541 on October 19, 2018, 02:41:24 PM
Unfortunately the issue is not that Kahn is losing money by owning the Jags (he is not), it is that he wants his NFL franchise to be as profitable as possible.  He sees the revenue coming into these teams with new stadiums and larger markets and wants his franchise to be on pace.  That is not doable for him in Jax without the additional revenue the franchise sees from playing a game in London each year. 

The Wembly deal would have basically guaranteed at least one, probably more, Jag games in London for the foreseeable future.   Now that the deal fell through, we are only guaranteed I think three more home games in London (I think through 2020).  That does not mean that he cannot negotiate another deal with the NFL to extend our London games, but that is going to be more difficult this time around now that other franchises are seeing the financial benefit to playing games in London.

The recent comments from Lamping stressing the importance of the Lot J development now sounds more and more like an ultimatum to the city each time I hear it.  Obviously the Jags do not need lot J developed to be profitable, but they feel they need it to maximize their profitability. 
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Tacachale on October 19, 2018, 03:14:35 PM
Unfortunately the issue is not that Kahn is losing money by owning the Jags (he is not), it is that he wants his NFL franchise to be as profitable as possible.  He sees the revenue coming into these teams with new stadiums and larger markets and wants his franchise to be on pace.  That is not doable for him in Jax without the additional revenue the franchise sees from playing a game in London each year. 

I don't buy that. London is a one-off opportunity. The Jags have been successful in seizing it, but if it never came up, the Jags would still be extremely profitable.

The Wembly deal would have basically guaranteed at least one, probably more, Jag games in London for the foreseeable future.   Now that the deal fell through, we are only guaranteed I think three more home games in London (I think through 2020).  That does not mean that he cannot negotiate another deal with the NFL to extend our London games, but that is going to be more difficult this time around now that other franchises are seeing the financial benefit to playing games in London.

The recent comments from Lamping stressing the importance of the Lot J development now sounds more and more like an ultimatum to the city each time I hear it.  Obviously the Jags do not need lot J developed to be profitable, but they feel they need it to maximize their profitability.

This would seem to be the case.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on October 19, 2018, 03:44:43 PM
https://www.jaguars.com/news/mark-lamping-on-wembley-jacksonville-drives-the-jaguars-20584844

“For the Jaguars, it would deliver another – and very significant – asset and local revenue source that would further strengthen our investment in London, which as everyone knows is crucial to the Jaguars’ continued sustainability in Jacksonville,” Khan said in a statement.


Now what happens?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2018, 03:55:46 PM
We were told multiple times that the Wimbly deal was the only thing keeping the Jags in Jax.

We were? Can you provide a single quote of this?

Now, what I heard (and was published by Khan two days ago) was that London was critically important to the Jaguars financial success in Jacksonville (and the Jaguars evidence to this fact is fairly strong). London isn't the same thing as buying Wembley.

You are correct that literally no one was saying that Wembley was the only thing keeping the Jags here. However the idea that the Jags would not be "financially successful" if not for London is crap. All NFL teams print their own money at this point, and the city has always been willing to work with the team on the improvements they want.

I agree with you that yes, he Jaguars would likely be profitable without London. With that said, it's never good to be at the bottom of the NFL's revenue pool. The NFL's economic model is basically Socialism, with revenue sharing on almost everything (premium seats and local sponsorships are the main exceptions). If the Jaguars are near the bottom of the league in one of the smallest markets, that isn't an ideal in the Billionaire Boys club.

Should we just give Khan whatever he wants? No. But, Jacksonville is going to have to overachieve somehow to try to close the gap.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2018, 03:56:42 PM
https://www.jaguars.com/news/mark-lamping-on-wembley-jacksonville-drives-the-jaguars-20584844

“For the Jaguars, it would deliver another – and very significant – asset and local revenue source that would further strengthen our investment in London, which as everyone knows is crucial to the Jaguars’ continued sustainability in Jacksonville,” Khan said in a statement.


Now what happens?

You're missing something. Just because he withdrew his offer to play at Wembley doesn't mean that the team can't play in London. They've played in London for a while now without owning the team.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: MusicMan on October 19, 2018, 05:09:56 PM
"............ whether the Jags want a new stadium................"


How about a few winning seasons IN A ROW first.

(Will they take the scoreboards with them?)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on October 19, 2018, 05:45:41 PM
The NFL's economic model is basically Socialism, with revenue sharing on almost everything (premium seats and local sponsorships are the main exceptions).


Tell that to the workers - the players. Revenue sharing by capitalists isn't even remotely socialism.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on October 19, 2018, 05:55:53 PM
"............ whether the Jags want a new stadium................"


How about a few winning seasons IN A ROW first.

(Will they take the scoreboards with them?)

If you watch the clip, a reporter asked the new stadium question, and Lamping gave a really good answer to the question about why a new stadium doesn't really make sense for the market.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on October 19, 2018, 09:33:39 PM
The NFL's economic model is basically Socialism, with revenue sharing on almost everything (premium seats and local sponsorships are the main exceptions).


Tell that to the workers - the players. Revenue sharing by capitalists isn't even remotely socialism.

If you study the economic revenue sharing by the 32 owners, it is. Not talking about the players cut.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaxAvondale on October 19, 2018, 09:51:06 PM
We were told multiple times that the Wimbly deal was the only thing keeping the Jags in Jax.

We were? Can you provide a single quote of this?

Now, what I heard (and was published by Khan two days ago) was that London was critically important to the Jaguars financial success in Jacksonville (and the Jaguars evidence to this fact is fairly strong). London isn't the same thing as buying Wembley.

I think a lot people aren't quite getting that part of it.  We're still committed to playing at least one home game in London until 2020.  I posted this in a Jag group earlier and here's where I'm at with it:
Quote
Even though Khan bailed on Wembley, I don't see this dying down anytime soon. Sorry about the long-ish read, but I'd like to throw my opinion out there to give you guys/gals something to think about.

The media is grasping for low-hanging fruit as always and to write a story that ties the Jags moving to London doesn't take any brain power at all. It's something most 11th graders can do.

Here, let me shed some light for you:

There are 2 stadiums in England right now.
There is a lot of interest in Germany - right now.
The only way to truly make it work overseas is to have multiple teams at home.
The NFL and the NFLPA don't go to the table until 2020.
The NFL wants to expand - not relocate.

If anyone wants a team in London, they would make exponentially more money by creating a startup rather than relocating. Assume an initial $1B to startup, and once they become part of the league in London - team value automatically jumps to ~$5B-7B.

What Khan is trying to do is get ahead of the curve and own one of the two stadiums. I truly think his ultimate goal would be just what you've read - base the Jags out of Jax and have a 2-game homestand in London.

That accomplishes 2 things: 1. If the numbers stay the same, he makes upwards of 30-35% of the yearly revenue on just 2 games. 2. By having fewer games here, the demand 'should' go up, therefore increasing the revenue made at home also.

And this is based on a 16 games season. I believe if we were to have another expansion of teams, then 18 games is absolutely on the table. And more games in 'his' stadium means more money for 'our' team.

If he can't keep the Jags there as the psuedo "Home" team, then he will lease it out to whomever plays there. Just like Kronke. Just like Mara.

IMO, best case, things stay the same, we have our home game overseas and play an 'away' there, too in Tottenham in back to back weeks. Worst case is that the team splits 5-5 and has a US schedule coupled with a Euro schedule. Either way, for no other reason than taxes (we're talking hundreds of millions per year between ownership and players and staff, etc...), Khan will keep the Jags in Jax for the foreseeable future.

I don't think that the schedule will increase to 18 games anytime soon. The owners would have to make a lot of other concessions in the next CBA.

I agree that the next step for the Jags/NFL is to have them play in back to back weeks in London. I think that it is likely in 2019 with the Jags scheduled to play the AFC West. Both the Raiders and Chargers are in temporary homes. So, I assume that they would be fine giving up a home game.

Until Khan and Spurs Chairman workout their issues, the easiest solution is for the Jags to play a pre-season game in London against one of the other teams that are giving up a home game. Khan in return should send Fulham on a US Tour over here for a pre-season matches at TIAA. An EPL team on pre-season tour would generate much more revenue for the city than a pre-season game.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Adam White on October 20, 2018, 10:19:42 AM
The NFL's economic model is basically Socialism, with revenue sharing on almost everything (premium seats and local sponsorships are the main exceptions).


Tell that to the workers - the players. Revenue sharing by capitalists isn't even remotely socialism.

If you study the economic revenue sharing by the 32 owners, it is. Not talking about the players cut.

The NFL basically operates as a cartel. There is nothing 'socialist' about profit-sharing between capitalists.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/01/14/why-american-sports-are-organised-as-cartels/#56c5f3f872a4
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: ProjectMaximus on October 20, 2018, 03:43:44 PM
I agree that the next step for the Jags/NFL is to have them play in back to back weeks in London. I think that it is likely in 2019 with the Jags scheduled to play the AFC West. Both the Raiders and Chargers are in temporary homes. So, I assume that they would be fine giving up a home game.

Until Khan and Spurs Chairman workout their issues, the easiest solution is for the Jags to play a pre-season game in London against one of the other teams that are giving up a home game. Khan in return should send Fulham on a US Tour over here for a pre-season matches at TIAA. An EPL team on pre-season tour would generate much more revenue for the city than a pre-season game.

That's mighty kind of you to call Fulham an EPL team. As a fan I appreciate the compliment, but we squandered our chance to even beat lowly Cardiff today... :-[

I agree with you that I wouldn't be surprised if we have a back-to-back in London next year. I think it would have to be a home and away game...dont think Khan is quite ready to take away a second home game from Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on October 24, 2018, 12:12:33 AM
My guess - Khan has worked out a relocation package that doesn't require him to own the stadium.  Team is winning - offer to buy stadium withdrawn - team loses.  Coincidence?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on October 24, 2018, 08:40:39 AM
My guess - Khan has worked out a relocation package that doesn't require him to own the stadium.  Team is winning - offer to buy stadium withdrawn - team loses.  Coincidence?

I just want to make sure I understand.

The team is losing because Khan isn't buying Wembley?

Like intentionally?
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on October 24, 2018, 08:46:47 AM
My guess - Khan has worked out a relocation package that doesn't require him to own the stadium.  Team is winning - offer to buy stadium withdrawn - team loses.  Coincidence?

Please tell me you don't believe this. If you seriously do, I'd suggest calling the FBI. Given the amount of money that's gambled on professional sports in multiple states, if you have reason to believe the Jaguars are throwing games (or at least trying to lose a la the Cleveland Indians in Major League) then you should report that as a crime.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Snufflee on October 24, 2018, 11:12:49 AM
The team is losing because they aren't very good. IMHO Coughlin and company tried to build an old school team in the modern NFL which doesn't work anymore.

Fournette, huge contracts to Linder and Norwell, are holdovers from an era where the power running game won Super Bowls. We have no move tight end no receiver to move the safeties out of the box and a QB that is mentally weak when crap goes wrong. The current rule set even if the defense plays amazing leaves this team as 8 - 8, maybe 9 - 7 in a weak division. Time to move on.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on October 24, 2018, 11:20:24 AM
My guess - Khan has worked out a relocation package that doesn't require him to own the stadium.  Team is winning - offer to buy stadium withdrawn - team loses.  Coincidence?

Please tell me you don't believe this. If you seriously do, I'd suggest calling the FBI. Given the amount of money that's gambled on professional sports in multiple states, if you have reason to believe the Jaguars are throwing games (or at least trying to lose a la the Cleveland Indians in Major League) then you should report that as a crime.

No I don't actually believe it.  But it does make one wonder how teams can be perpetually bad.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on October 24, 2018, 12:01:53 PM
My guess - Khan has worked out a relocation package that doesn't require him to own the stadium.  Team is winning - offer to buy stadium withdrawn - team loses.  Coincidence?

Please tell me you don't believe this. If you seriously do, I'd suggest calling the FBI. Given the amount of money that's gambled on professional sports in multiple states, if you have reason to believe the Jaguars are throwing games (or at least trying to lose a la the Cleveland Indians in Major League) then you should report that as a crime.

No I don't actually believe it.  But it does make one wonder how teams can be perpetually bad.

It's not that complicated. It's a QB driven league. If you have a good quarterback, you will be competitive. See Green Bay, New Orleans and New England for the past decade plus.

You may catch lightning in a bottle like the Eagles and Jags did last year where your defense plays at an elite level and your quarterback is good in stretches. But reality sets in at a point.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Steve on October 24, 2018, 01:23:58 PM
My guess - Khan has worked out a relocation package that doesn't require him to own the stadium.  Team is winning - offer to buy stadium withdrawn - team loses.  Coincidence?

Please tell me you don't believe this. If you seriously do, I'd suggest calling the FBI. Given the amount of money that's gambled on professional sports in multiple states, if you have reason to believe the Jaguars are throwing games (or at least trying to lose a la the Cleveland Indians in Major League) then you should report that as a crime.

No I don't actually believe it.  But it does make one wonder how teams can be perpetually bad.

Please meet the Cleveland Browns, the Green Bay Packers between 1969 and 1992, and many other teams. The Jaguars run of awfulness since 2008 is FAR from record setting.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: pierre on October 24, 2018, 01:37:10 PM
My guess - Khan has worked out a relocation package that doesn't require him to own the stadium.  Team is winning - offer to buy stadium withdrawn - team loses.  Coincidence?

Please tell me you don't believe this. If you seriously do, I'd suggest calling the FBI. Given the amount of money that's gambled on professional sports in multiple states, if you have reason to believe the Jaguars are throwing games (or at least trying to lose a la the Cleveland Indians in Major League) then you should report that as a crime.

No I don't actually believe it.  But it does make one wonder how teams can be perpetually bad.

Please meet the Cleveland Browns, the Green Bay Packers between 1969 and 1992, and many other teams. The Jaguars run of awfulness since 2008 is FAR from record setting.

The Jaguars are struggling in 2018 and have as many wins (3) as the Browns have had since the end of the 2015 season.

Even better. Since Thanksgiving of 2014, the Browns have 6 wins. They are 6-53-1.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on November 12, 2018, 10:48:08 AM
Not sure what the implications are, but apparently the city is rezoning the entire Shipyards/Met Park/Lot J area as "central business district."

Details from the Daily Record this morning:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-wants-to-rezone-shipyards-property
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: heights unknown on November 12, 2018, 03:38:51 PM
Not sure what the implications are, but apparently the city is rezoning the entire Shipyards/Met Park/Lot J area as "central business district."

Details from the Daily Record this morning:

https://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/article/city-wants-to-rezone-shipyards-property
Wow! Busy busy busy!! Let's get a move on now before we all are incinerated. There's no guarantee for the future. Love what I am seeing going on in the urban core/downtown Jax.
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on November 13, 2018, 07:26:47 AM
The City should take this opportunity to scrap segregated zoning completely and start implementing a Smart Code.  Regulate the physical realm, not the uses.

http://smartcodecentral.com
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: JaGoaT on November 13, 2018, 11:40:19 PM
That area will be unrecognizable in 10 years! Very exciting!
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: downtownbrown on November 14, 2018, 01:28:35 PM
that's what they said 10 years ago...
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Keith-N-Jax on November 16, 2018, 12:55:01 AM
Jaguars were not involved 10 years ago  ::)
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: Kerry on November 28, 2018, 07:22:15 PM
The Oakland As are going to fund their own new stadium and adjacent development.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/matier-ross/article/A-s-propose-jewel-box-ballpark-for-13426272.php#photo-16564500
Title: Re: Jaguars State of the Franchise 2018
Post by: KenFSU on December 03, 2018, 02:02:44 PM
Based on a couple of things that I've heard in the last week or two, I'm lowering my betting odds from a near lock that JEA ends up at Lot J, to a 50/50 toss-up.

Fingers crossed that saner heads prevail.